Is A Physically Present Spiritual Master Required?

[AncientMariner]

 

What we see with Christianity is a good looking corpse. They don't know what the master said. All they have to go on is a book written years after his passing. A book thats been tampered with many times.

 

Well meaning that it may be, Christianity has no true spiritual head.

 

The disciples who followed Jesus were just simple men themselves. You can tell by their writings that they only partially understood their master's message. Those who steer the course today are book educated but lack any real spiritual abilities themselves, and it shows. They imitate the master, but are unable to pass the flame from one candle to another. The only real power they have is strength in numbers.

 

Religious dogma is like a treasure map with no X on it. And this is the fate of all religions when there is no suitable heir to the master's power.

 

 

x

 

 

No offense, but it seems presumptuous of you to say that there are no people in the world that are recieving the message of Jesus (even as imperfectly as it may be transmitted) even to this day and getting spiritual benefit from it.

[xexon]

Friend, I can't be offended.

 

Whatever the original message of Jesus was has been lost in time. But the one element of that message that survived is a universal spiritual truth.

 

Compassion is the way. Just as it always has been. You'll hear me talk of this time and time again during my visit here.

 

The problem with Christianity is they're unable to fit all the pieces of the puzzle together. Nobody has come forward within that community to show them how, and the ones that have tried were burned at the stake or worse.

 

When you believe a book over a living person who is tuned to the divine, your future is going to be pretty dark.

 

I was raised within the bible belt of the southern US. I never saw any evidence whatsoever of anything other than dogma pulled from a book.

 

Good people. Kind hearts. But limited in their abilty to move forward on their own.

 

Not all of Jesus' seed went to waste. There are many like myself who understand the message with clarity, but we are unable to break the thick layers of belief that have built up as a result of clerks trying to give sight to the blind.

 

Now these same clerks are steering Christianity into political areas where they should not go.

 

The world sits on the brink of disaster, because of the blind leading the blind.

 

 

x

[AncientMariner]

 

Friend, I can't be offended.

 

Whatever the original message of Jesus was has been lost in time. But the one element of that message that survived is a universal spiritual truth.

 

Compassion is the way. Just as it always has been. You'll hear me talk of this time and time again during my visit here.

 

The problem with Christianity is they're unable to fit all the pieces of the puzzle together. Nobody has come forward within that community to show them how, and the ones that have tried were burned at the stake or worse.

 

When you believe a book over a living person who is tuned to the divine, your future is going to be pretty dark.

 

I was raised within the bible belt of the southern US. I never saw any evidence whatsoever of anything other than dogma pulled from a book.

 

Good people. Kind hearts. But limited in their abilty to move forward on their own.

 

Not all of Jesus' seed went to waste. There are many like myself who understand the message with clarity, but we are unable to break the thick layers of belief that have built up as a result of clerks trying to give sight to the blind.

 

Now these same clerks are steering Christianity into political areas where they should not go.

 

The world sits on the brink of disaster, because of the blind leading the blind.

 

 

x

 

I agree with much that you say especially in regards to Christianity and politics. I don't agree with your distaste for books however. I read in Prabhupada's Srimad Bhagavatam that the devotee Bhagavata and the book Bhagavata are identical and both or either are competent remedies to overcome the obstacles to self realization. Who is the living person tuned to the divine that you believe in if you don't mind me asking?

[xexon]

There currently are none. That was my point.

 

As for books, not useless, but limited. They make the mind more aerodynamic for the journey ahead but are unable to correct your path should you veer off course.

 

There was a time where I read multiple libraries of books. Then one day many years ago, it all suddenly stopped. I haven't read any spiritual books cover to cover since. I don't even quote scriptures except for the point of understanding.

 

It was just after I had recieved a letter from the Radha Soami guru Charan Singh in response to one I had written. It was very kind in content. He died a few months afterward.

 

I've not been the same person since.

 

But books are static. They can't address you on such a personal level.

 

 

 

x

[krsna]

guru can undo all your messed up karmic state of consciousness:confused:

 

guru can remove all your doubts about KRSNA:smash:

 

guru can answer all your questions about KRSNA Consciousness:deal:

 

guru can reveal to you your own spiritual form as an eternal servant of KRSNA:pray:

[krsna]

Thank you guru for all your heavy words of reprimand

 

without which I could never see the true light of KRSNA.

 

Thank you guru for you seeing right through me in my feigned stance

 

of psuedo-intellectuallism which is no good in approaching KRSNA.

[xexon]

You think?

 

You must call upon all your mental powers to help you decide which is real and which isn't. Faith is just dangerous.

 

What's left over after the mind decides, is the black sand in the bottom of the gold pan. How much gold you walk away with is depending on your ability to tell gold from mud.

 

Most will come home with lots of mud.

 

Only a living master can show you which is which. And explain to you why.

 

 

 

x

[krsna]

O holy living master please bless me withe power of KRSNA's divine grace

 

O holy personality, I behold your most blessed form and seek your causeless mercy in order to chant the pure holy name divine.

 

O divine master, I hold the dust of your lotus feet on my head and honor your prasad remanants so that I too can thereby taste the love of KRSNA in chanting the Holy Names

[CCC]

 

O holy living master please bless me withe power of KRSNA's divine grace

 

O holy personality, I behold your most blessed form and seek your causeless mercy in order to chant the pure holy name divine.

 

O divine master, I hold the dust of your lotus feet on my head and honor your prasad remanants so that I too can thereby taste the love of KRSNA in chanting the Holy Names

 

Which Spiritual Master?

[Beggar]

 

Which Spiritual Master?

 

¿El viejo y nuevo messiah con su scripture nuevo?

[xexon]

Messiahs come and go. The reason why they come stays the same as does their message.

 

 

x

[krsna]

Omniscience

BY: ASAMORDHVA DASA

 

Mar 25, USA (SUN) — I was prompted to write by reading a comment by one devotee who had noticed a book about Nityananda published by Isvara das, stating that the Lord granted omniscience to some of his associates. Very interesting.

 

However, if we look at our own Srimad Bhagavatam, Srila Prabhupada in the 5th Canto, chapter 13, verse 26 quotes Maharaja Parikshit speaking to Shukadeva in regard to his quality of omniscience as follows:

 

• TEXT
  rajovaca yo ha va iha bahu-vida maha-bhagavata tvayabhihitah paroksena vacasa jiva-loka-bhavadhva sa hy arya-manisaya kalpita-visayo nanjasavyutpannaloka- samadhigamah; atha tad evaitad duravagamam samavetanukalpena nirdisyatam iti.
  
  SYNONYMS
  raja uvaca--King Pariksit said; yah--which; ha--certainly; va--or; iha--in this narration; bahu-vida--who are aware of many incidents of transcendental knowledge; maha-bhagavata--O great devotee sage; tvaya--by you; abhihitah--described; paroksena--figuratively; vacasa--by words; jiva-loka-bhava-adhva--the path of material existence of the conditioned soul; sah--that; hi--indeed; arya-manisaya--by the intelligence of advanced devotees; kalpita-visayah--the subject matter is imagined; na-- not; anjasa--directly; avyutpanna-loka--of persons who are not very experienced or intelligent; samadhigamah--the complete understanding; atha--therefore; tat eva--because of that; etat--this matter; duravagamam--which is difficult to understand; samaveta-anukalpena--by substituting the direct meaning of such incidents; nirdisyatam--let it be described; iti--thus.
  TRANSLATION
  King Pariksit then told Sukadeva Gosvami: My dear lord, O great devotee sage, you are omniscient. You have very nicely described the position of the conditioned soul, who is compared to a merchant in the forest. From these instructions intelligent men can understand that the senses of a person in the bodily conception are like rogues and thieves in that forest, and one's wife and children are like jackals and other ferocious animals. However, it is not very easy for the unintelligent to understand the purport of this story because it is difficult to extricate the exact meaning from the allegory. I therefore request Your Holiness to give the direct meaning.

 

[Dark Warrior]

I do not know about Hare Krishna devotees, but in my honest opinion, Christianity is in no way related to Vaishnavism.

 

I have read about Jesus and his teachings, the apostles, the church's doings, saints and mystics, etc to gauge him. Judging by the Gnostic Gospels, he was an essene who essentially advocated some form of Buddhism or cryptic advaita. Most likely, he picked up the philosophy from Buddhist missionaries, who were prevalent in that region at the time. The morals and renunciation aspect appears to have come from Buddhist scriptures like the Dhammapada.

 

Coming back to topic, no ritual or initiation is required. If you want to become a Vaishnava, wear the lotus feet of Hari on your forehead, read about Him, pledge yourself in your mind to any Vaishnava Acharya ( Sri Sankara, Sri Ramanuja, Sri Madhva, etc. ) you like, and go to the temple. That's all.

[cbrahma]

There are two important terms to the question that need definition

 

Acceptance - total submission? bodily ownership? or simply taking instructions

 

Spiritual - how situated? fixed or fallible?

 

I for one see no spiritual or educational value in 'surrendering' to a fallible human as his property.

[xexon]

The road to God is open to all who are willing to tread it.

 

There are those who have traveled it before and know the way. They are the true guru. It is their love to serve humanity as a whole. No more distinction of race, or class, religious belief. They only see a family. A flock that needs tending.

 

When you are reborn in spirit, you become a nursemaid to the human race. When compassion blooms fully, it engulfs all all things, and pays no attention to the lines that divide things in the mental "material" world. Love becomes unconditional.

 

Ideas of "self" are still present, but you now utilize whatever talents you had in life to the the good of the whole rather than the self. You don't deny self, you form a dual citizenship with the world and the divine.

 

You become an ambassador to another world they have a hard time comprehending.

 

You have to be the plow that splits the hard earth.

 

 

 

 

x

[Beggar]

 

There are two important terms to the question that need definition

 

Acceptance - total submission? bodily ownership? or simply taking instructions

 

Spiritual - how situated? fixed or fallible?

 

I for one see no spiritual or educational value in 'surrendering' to a fallible human as his property.

 

A real guru or devotee sees everyone and everything as Krsna's property; not just theoretically but practically.

[cbrahma]

 

A real guru or devotee sees everyone and everything as Krsna's property; not just theoretically but practically.

Of course so the fallible human = god. Nice.

[cbrahma]

 

The road to God is open to all who are willing to tread it.

 

There are those who have traveled it before and know the way. They are the true guru. It is their love to serve humanity as a whole. No more distinction of race, or class, religious belief. They only see a family. A flock that needs tending.

 

When you are reborn in spirit, you become a nursemaid to the human race. When compassion blooms fully, it engulfs all all things, and pays no attention to the lines that divide things in the mental "material" world. Love becomes unconditional.

 

Ideas of "self" are still present, but you now utilize whatever talents you had in life to the the good of the whole rather than the self. You don't deny self, you form a dual citizenship with the world and the divine.

 

You become an ambassador to another world they have a hard time comprehending.

 

You have to be the plow that splits the hard earth.

 

 

 

 

x

So they see family- equality? no? sama-darshana ?

Where is the question of surrender/dominance? Of absolute control over another human being?

[Beggar]

Of course so the fallible human = god. Nice.

The infallible human is the person who is so engaged in Krsna's loving service that they have no time to become allured by sense gratification or the concepts of I and mine. If they happen to be by divine arrangement in the role of guru then they are a transparent via media to the Lord. If someone is taking the role of guru with a sense of overlordship then as soon as one detects this they can know that they have selected the wrong person as a spiritual master. Another term for guru is one who is acarya or teaches selfless service to Krsna by their example. Note that Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada founded The International Society for Krsna Consciousness not Prabhupada consciousness. When you see self promotion, it is time to run the other way. The fact that people are cheated by Fools Gold is one proof that real gold must exist.

[xexon]

 

So they see family- equality? no? sama-darshana ?

Where is the question of surrender/dominance? Of absolute control over another human being?

 

 

What they see is younger sisters and brothers in need of a little mothering. There is no question of selecting one and not another. There is absolute equality. Special attention is given to both the gifted and the diasabled.

 

They're far from home and lost in a world they can't find their way out of.

 

Since you know the way home, you ofter to point the way. It is up to each one to accept or deny the offer. No time limit. Stay here and play as long as you like. But sooner or later, the memories of home will make you homesick, and the journey begins to get back there.

 

Surrender is nothing more than trading desire of the flesh for one of the spirit. You realize you've wasted your time running in the wrong direction and now you are willing to try another direction. Under guidence.

 

Dominance is the way of an earthy person, with earthly intentions. They will gain only earthly results.

 

 

 

x

[Beggar]

 

 

It was just after I had recieved a letter from the Radha Soami guru Charan Singh in response to one I had written. It was very kind in content. He died a few months afterward.

 

I've not been the same person since.

 

x

 

I once had an ongoing debate with a Radha Soami follower thirty-four years ago. The man was an intractable impersonalist.

[krsna]

Guru is in your heart inside as the caitya-guru, the spiritual master within, the Overseer God (supersoul)

 

Guru manifests in human form outside as the Super-human form as His Divine Grace, the spiritual master (external representation of supersoul)

[krsna]

 

guru can take you by the hand to KRSNA:pray:

[krsna]

Guru must come from the paramparä system by disciplic succession. Five thousand years or five millions of years, what was spoken by the supreme God or guru, the present guru also will say the same thing. That is guru. That is bona fide guru. Otherwise, he's not guru. Simple definition. Guru cannot change any word of the predecessor.

 

Srila Prabhupada 22 Aug, 1973

[xexon]

Only if the word is spoken.

 

Once it is enshrined on paper, its fair game to anyone who wants to have a go at it. Its already dead, so it won't put up much of a fight.

 

Once a word has been written down, you've killed it and mounted it's head upon the wall of your mind.

 

Only when you can have interaction with a living guru do the words live.

 

They become a living "word of God." The content of all holy books is written in their hearts already.

 

Do you want to drink from the pure mountain stream, or wait and drink from the lake where everyone else does?

 

 

 

x