Is A Physically Present Spiritual Master Required?

[Beggar]

First part of CCC's rant translated on Alta Vista Translator:

 

 

I do not know if you will be speaking of sarcastic way, but of the new writing which I speak is known enough in Peru, it is where one has expanded more, also I know personally with people that lived with Him, in fact, one of these people is as 70 years old and lives near my house reason why we have spoken much on this subject. It wrote more than 4000 rolls, he was a worker all its life and in the nights it wrote what God dictated to him. Perhaps you do not create to me, but that is your free will, happens whenever here in the West people are well incredulous, in my case I believed from a principle but also it had my doubts on its veracity until in a while I made that what is written was truth and was then that Krsna revealed to me internally that is a genuine writing. Soon people will know this revelation and everything what it is written has fulfilled or it is being fulfilled. Until the origin of the Soul it is described with details, with details that nor in the Prohibitions are so explicit. Now what it happens with the Dolar, a friend who studies enough this writing says that in the revelation says that dolar it will lower his value until in a 70% and that the economy of the USA will collapse until their inhabitants are in the extreme poverty, all the badness that has made the USA will fall on them, says the Father in the writing that the USA has been blessed with much material power (resources, wealth, territory, etc), but all those blessings will be cleared to explode to the world, not to satisfy itself with which already it had. Many catastrofes of many types comes to the USA and other countries to him. Also it says the revelation that Europe and the USA will collapse and the greatest powers will be Chinese and India, and 108 Third World Countries will be aligned with them. Also it says that Mr. Jesus Christ will have his residence in India, will be a Gem palace and its face will shine like a Sun and when this happens, all West will see it and there with its power, all body will be transformed into bodies to eter to us. Also it says the revelation that Mr. Jesus Christ will not step on the West, single will visit it to judge it. And thus many things more.

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[xexon]

 

Nobody I've known has experienced their guru in that way. The guru-worship, the idolatry and absolute power that invites corruption could hardly be called a 'partner'.

 

 

 

Even bad gurus will teach you something. To be more careful.

 

It is not the guru's place to live up to your expectations.

 

Good or bad.

 

 

 

x

[cbrahma]

 

Even bad gurus will teach you something. To be more careful.

 

It is not the guru's place to live up to your expectations.

 

Good or bad.

 

 

 

x

Yes learning to give up surrendering to fallible soldiers.

[Beggar]

 

Yes learning to give up surrendering to fallible soldiers.

But still ISKCONers will have to face this fact: Even a university professor of Indian religion, who is an atheist can observe that in the post Gaudiya Math there exists sannyasis who are real Gaudiya monks, who walk the walk and talk the talk. They will also observe that for the most part there is something odd, different and perhaps disingenuous about the ISKCON sannyasi style. (Of course this style also effects householder gurus)

[krsna]

guru walks the walk

 

and talks the talk.

[krsna]

What is a real guru?

 

"Even though we may not have the fortune to contact the Supreme Lord personally, the Lord’s representative is as good as the Lord Himself because such a representative does not say anything unless it is spoken by the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu therefore gives a definition of guru. Yare dekha, tare kaha ‘krsna’-upadesa: [Cc. Madhya 7.128] the bona fide guru is he who advises his disciples exactly in accordance with the principles spoken by Krsna. The bona fide guru is he who has accepted Krsna as guru.

This is the guru-parampara system. The original guru is Vyasadeva because he is the speaker of Bhagavad-gita and Srimad-Bhagavatam, wherein everything spoken relates to Krsna. Therefore guru-puja is known as Vyasa-puja. In the final analysis, the original guru is Krsna, His disciple is Narada, whose disciple is Vyasa, and in this way we gradually come in touch with the guru-parampara. One cannot become a guru if he does not know what the Personality of Godhead Krsna or His incarnation wants. The mission of the guru is the mission of the Supreme Personality of Godhead: to spread Krsna consciousness all over the world."

[Srimad Bhagavatam 8.24.48, purport]

[krsna]

From Bhaktisiddhanta Sarawati Thakura on how to see guru:

One has to be devoted to the spiritual master in the same way one is devoted to Krishna. One should think of the spiritual master in the same way that one thinks of Krishna, for he is in no way less than or inferior to Krishna. It is the duty of a pious person to recognize the spiritual master as equal to Krishna and to worship him and serve him in that way. If one does not do so, then is destituted of his status as a disciple.

Those who see the guru and Krishna as the same will be able to understand the essence of the scriptures. They alone will be able to chant the Holy Names and they alone will be able to speak on Krishna.

Sri Krishna himself has descended in the form of the spiritual master in order to teach service to himself. Those on whom fortune smiles will be able to understand this spotless scriptural truth. If not, their doubting minds will plunge them into the ocean of samsara.

The spiritual master is neither the ultimate object of devotion, viSaya-vigraha, nor the original reservoir of devotion, Azraya-vigraha. He is a manifestation or prakAza-vigraha of the original reservoir of devotion. Sri Krishna is the supreme object of all love, whereas the guru is the reservoir of divine love. Krishna is the predominating absolute, the bhoktA bhagavAn, while the guru is the predominated absolute, or sevaka-bhagavAn; he is God as worshiper or servant. Even though the spiritual master is the reservoir of love, he is Krishna himself; at the same time he is the most beloved of Krishna. This is the inconceivable paradox of guru tattva. Krishna is the complete omnipotent and the spiritual master is his complete potency. The spiritual master is not an ordinary living entity, he is master of all living entities. The spiritual master is the supreme consciousness, the plenary manifestation of the Lord's potency, his internal potency. We ordinary jivas on the other hand are atomic particles of consciousness, Krishna's marginal potency and separated parts.

[krsna]

 

From Bhaktisiddhanta Sarawati Thakura on how to see guru:

Even though the spiritual master is the reservoir of love, he is Krishna himself; at the same time he is the most beloved of Krishna. This is the inconceivable paradox of guru tattva. Krishna is the complete omnipotent and the spiritual master is his complete potency. The spiritual master is not an ordinary living entity, he is master of all living entities. The spiritual master is the supreme consciousness, the plenary manifestation of the Lord's potency, his internal potency. We ordinary jivas on the other hand are atomic particles of consciousness, Krishna's marginal potency and separated parts.

[krsna]

The spiritual master is not an ordinary living entity, he is master of all living entities. The spiritual master is the supreme consciousness, the plenary manifestation of the Lord's potency, his internal potency. We ordinary jivas on the other hand are atomic particles of consciousness, Krishna's marginal potency and separated parts. :namaskar:

[cbrahma]

 

The spiritual master is not an ordinary living entity, he is master of all living entities. The spiritual master is the supreme consciousness, the plenary manifestation of the Lord's potency, his internal potency. We ordinary jivas on the other hand are atomic particles of consciousness, Krishna's marginal potency and separated parts. :namaskar:

 

If they are so powerful how can they fall down. Why are so many people deceived. Where did you get this? Sastra? I've never heard that description from anywhere.

[Beggar]

 

If they are so powerful how can they fall down. Why are so many people deceived. Where did you get this? Sastra? I've never heard that description from anywhere.

 

 

From Bhaktisiddhanta Sarawati Thakura on how to see guru: ...

Krishna is the complete omnipotent and the spiritual master is his complete potency. The spiritual master is not an ordinary living entity, he is master of all living entities. The spiritual master is the supreme consciousness, the plenary manifestation of the Lord's potency, his internal potency. We ordinary jivas on the other hand are atomic particles of consciousness, Krishna's marginal potency and separated parts.

 

arcye visnau siladhir-gurusu naramatir vaisnave jati-buddhir-

visnor-va vaisnavanam kalimala-mathane pada-tirthe'mbu-buddhih

sri-visnor-namni mantre sakala-kalusahe sabda-samanya-buddhir-

visnau sarvesvarese tad-itara-samadhir-yasya va naraki sah

Whoever considers the Deity of the Supreme Lord to be dead matter made out of wood, stone or metal, or the spiritual master, who is an eternal associate of the Supreme Lord, to be an ordinary man, who is prone to die, or the Vaisnava to be coming from some caste, or the water that washes the feet of the pure

devotee or the Supreme Personality of Godhead to be ordinary water, although such water has the potency to destroy all the evils of the age of Kali, or considers the holy name of the Supreme Lord or mantras dedicated to Him, which are able to destroy all sin to be ordinary sounds , or thinks the Supreme Lord of all,

Lord Visnu, to be on the same level as demigods, has a hellish mentality. Whoever thinks in this way is certainly a resident of hell. (Padma Purana)

[CCC]

Originally Posted by Ashvatama

A bonafide Guru is no ordinary Human being, if you are sincere, he will find you. Most of us never went to India to find Prabhupada, he came to us in our Western Cities in the 1960s and found us.

YOU HAVE TO BE 100% GENUIN to attract or find a bonafide Guru who is a representive of Krsna and NOT an ordinary human being - it all depends on you

I agree, at least I was not sincere but I was suffering and came to me a book of Srila Prabhupada, I considere him my spiritual master, he was sent for the Lord for a very important mission. Today many gurus want the glories which were reserved for Srila Prabhupada. I am fed up with all the hipocrisies and fights (I know Kali Yuga) so for that reason I am not looking for a guru and take formal initiation. But if the Lord wants, He will send me a "living guru"

[cbrahma]

Where does it say , if you don't get guru ,you're not sincere?

[Beggar]

 

Where does it say , if you don't get guru ,you're not sincere?

Where does it say that if you're a resident of hell that you're not sincere?

[cbrahma]

 

Where does it say that if you're a resident of hell that you're not sincere?

I'll bite.

[krsna]

guru is the most genuine person you'll ever meet in this life

 

guru will give you the ultimate reality -KRSNA Conciousness

[cbrahma]

 

guru is the most genuine person you'll ever meet in this life

 

guru will give you the ultimate reality -KRSNA Conciousness

The question about sincerity has not been answered.

Anybody can make idealistic pronouncements. Where are they found IN REALITY.

[Beggar]

 

The question about sincerity has not been answered.

Anybody can be idealistic pronouncements. Where are they found IN REALITY.

And so we return to the most primary question: What is reality?

Srila Bhakti Raksak Sridhar Maharaj proposed that we search for Sri Krsna, Reality the Beautiful. He would say, "as Mahaprabhu, Reality is dancing."

[krsna]

[cbrahma]

 

All very lovely, but where is the proof that no guru=insincerity.

[cbrahma]

Still no reply.

No guru = no sincerity????

[Beggar]

 

Still no reply.

No guru = no sincerity????

The idea that if one doesn't find a real guru that they should blame themselves for their own lack of sincerity. This presuposes that one is actually searching for a bonafide spiritual master. If one does not accept the principle of Sri Guru then of course the whole thing becomes meaningless. So which context is cbrahma speaking from? Is he a devotee who wants to approach Krsna directly? Actually he has called Krsna "a coldly aloof Deity", so he is really no longer a Krsna bhakta. And he has already revealed his true position.

 

 

Jesus showed the way of Love and worship in Spirit and Truth. It is the way of pure Simplicity. No hoops to jump, no complicated rituals, no mechanism to enmesh and stress us impossibly to gain the audience of a coldly aloof Deity.

But some of us just read some threads and not others, so he can reveal his true intentions on one thread and take another guise on another thread, only to try to sucker us in for the kill. The kill of our faith in guru and Krsna.

[Beggar]

Here's cbrahma in transition last December:

 

I used to do the basic sadhanna - 16 rounds,the morning program, taking only prasadam , harer nama reading the sastras etc...

I stopped because everything was complication on top of complication.

Just the chanting was a mine field of possible offenses, not to mention making prasadam and all the other activities.

Why should a path towards God's mercy be so fraught with hundreds of hoops to jump through.

Just the anxiety of trying to 'get it right', makes the workaday world look like a walk in the park.

And then there's the guru initiation thing...the deepest briar patch of complications and dangers.

[krsna]

yasman nodvijate loko lokan nodvijate ca yau |

harsamarsa-bhayodvegair mukto yah sa ca me priyah || 12.15

ya idam paramam guhyam mad-bhaktesv abhidhasyati |

bhaktim mayi param krtva mam evaisyaty asamsayah || 18.68

na ca tasman manusyesu kascin me priya-krttamah |

bhavita na ca me tasmad anyah priyataro bhuvi || 18.69

 

 

"He for whom no one is put into difficulty and who is not disturbed by anyone, who is equipoised in happiness and distress, fear and anxiety, is very dear to Me."

 

"For one who explains this supreme secret to the devotees, pure devotional service is guaranteed, and at the end he will come back to Me."

 

"There is no servant in this world more dear to Me than he, nor will there ever be one more dear.":pray:

[krsna]

guru, not 'no guru'

 

sincerity , not 'insincerity'

 

KRSNA, not 'no KRSNA'

 

mercy, not 'no mercy'