Is A Physically Present Spiritual Master Required?

Shakti-Fan · April 9, 2008

Gosh could I have meant East Indian , like from India? could be:rolleyes:

White man, cbrahma speak with forked tongue, kimosabe!

krsna · April 10, 2008

When You Want To Know KRSNA,

Guru Appears In Your Heart :pray:

When You Want To Out-Smart KRSNA

Urug Appears In Your Heart:eek:

cbrahma · April 10, 2008

When You Want To Know KRSNA,
Guru Appears In Your Heart

When You Want To Out-Smart KRSNA

Urug Appears In Your Heart:eek:

Whose sloka is this?

skp · April 10, 2008

And he uses the example of Narada Muni coming to Vedavyasa and their relationship was one of siksa. Narada Muni was personally there but in his spiritual form.

Theist ji, Narada Muni has only one form and that is his spiritual form. Because he is a pure unalloyed devotee of Krishna, he is spiritual.

Hare Krishna!

Beggar · April 10, 2008

Theist ji, Narada Muni has only one form and that is his spiritual form. Because he is a pure unalloyed devotee of Krishna, he is spiritual.

Hare Krishna!

What about Narada Munis' form as Srivas Thakur in Gaura lila?

krsna · April 18, 2008

guru is pure absolute spirit:)

as he can make KRSNA:pray:

the supreme pure spirit

manifest in your heart as Supersoul:namaskar:

Gaurahari das · April 28, 2008

I found an interesting purport that I believe reflects Srila Prabhupda’s real mood about a physically present spiritual master and the Ritvika Idea in regards to his own movement. I am not much into controversies and differences of opinions but my own personal experience and agony while I was ISKCON Bramachari taught me what the real mood of Srila Prabhupda is in the matter and was confirmed in the way I will describe below. Srila Prabhupada writes

Bhaktisiddhänta Sarasvaté Öhäkura, at the time of his departure, requested all his disciples to form a governing body and conduct missionary activities cooperatively. He did not instruct a particular man to become the next äcärya. But just after his passing away, his leading secretaries made plans, without authority, to occupy the post of äcärya, and they split into two factions over who the next äcärya would be. Consequently, both factions were asära, or useless, because they had no authority, having disobeyed the order of the spiritual master. Despite the spiritual master’s order to form a governing body and execute the missionary activities of the Gauòéya Maöha, the two unauthorized factions began litigation that is still going on after forty years with no decision. Adi 12/8 purport

Of course this is contraversal issue of what Prabhupda actually said to within ISKCON but bhaktisidhantas saraswati Thakhur's disciples were far more advanced than iskcons and he did not appoint anyone much less eleven acharyas. As I said previously my own experience confirms what I believe is Srila Prabupadas mind about this Ritvik issue.It would appear that Srila Prabhupada was warning us through this purport not to make the same mistake of prematurely appointing artificial created Acharyas or imitation pure devotees to worship instead of the pure one even if the pure devotee departs the planet. Srila Prabhupda said appointing an Acharya was going against the order of his Guru and rendered his Gurus institution useless or impotent. In this light I believe that Srila Prabhupada supported the Ritvik Idea because it would be better to surrender to a pure devotee and have his guidance through the book bhagavata than to surrender to a Guru who is just started the Bhakti path just a few years previously and trying to wedge himself in between new devotees and Srila Prabhupada. In the line of Jesus many people have become saints just from reading the New Testament which glorifies Jesus and gives only a few teachings. Srila Prabhupada gave so many practical teachings in his books to take shelter of. In Srimad Bhagavatam Srila Prabhupada says,

Both the Bhägavatas are competent remedies, and both of them or either of them can be good enough to eliminate the obstacles. A devotee Bhägavata is as good as the book Bhägavata because the devotee Bhägavata leads his life in terms of the book Bhägavata and the book Bhägavata is full of information about the Personality of Godhead and His pure devotees, who are also Bhägavatas. Bhägavata book and person are identical. Human reason fails to understand how by serving the devotee Bhägavata or the book Bhägavata one gets gradual promotion on the path of devotion. SB -2-18purport

No different opinion now can sway me from my instruction from- the school of hard knocks in this matter. I realized this practically when I first came to ISKCON in 1980, Srila Prabhupada was the one who drew my heart to surrender to Krishna but when I Came to iskcon I was encouraged to accept a zonal Acharya as my worshipable Guru. Doing this I lost my loving connection to Srila Prabhupda and all inspiration to serve Krishna left me. After five miserable mundane years in ISKCON I finally left and felt so relieved I did. After seven years I again read one of Srila Prabhupadas books and immediately my connection to Krishna and inspiration to serve Srila Prabhupda awakened. I realized I needed to simply neglect this Zonal Guru and I served Srila Prabhupda’s general order to distribute his his books, chanting and reading his books constantly. After three blissful and truly ecstatic years serving Srila Prabhupada alone in this way outside the walls of ISKCON, Srila Prabhupada appeared to me in a lucid dream and gave me personal clear and direct instructions as to how he wanted me to serve him in the future. For three more ecstatic and blissful years I did this then I failed a test and was convinced to give up his order. My spiritual life fell apart again because of deviating from his personal instruction. Now I got clear about the whole situation and am again serving Srila Prabhupada with great happiness. I am alone in Dharmshala India in the heart of Buddhism, holding congregationally chanting and giving Bhakti yoga classes. Even though I am alone at the present moment I feel spiritually strong because my love and dedication Srila Prabhupada, his instruction, and the disciplic succession keeps me inspired to push on and trade some blows with Maya in its empty form of Buddhism. If anyone is interested in hearing these practical Bhakti Yoga classes leave me your email and I can send you the url. I uploaded about nine classes on to the internet so far. Or you can just do a google search for supload Gaurahari das Dharmshala Classes to find the link.

I also believe as we gradually advance and attain the Madyam addikari position we will be able to recognize favorable devotee association and someone more advanced than ourselves. Srila Prabhupda also says that it is through association with devotees more advanced than ourselves that we can advance to a higher devotional position. Practically In the neophyte stage I believe it is better to just stick closely with Srila Prabhupda’s books exclusively. Otherwise one may easily become mislead by false or materialistic vaishnavas who externally appear like advanced devotees. After many years of experiences doing devotional service and trying to figure things out I now I know some paticular devotees who are good association but I would not broadcast this information far and wide because when we are ready Krishna will lead us, or lead them to us and give us the intelligence to recognize their glories instead of misunderstanding them and considering them devils out gross ignorance or our neophyte position. Even if one accepts a lesser Guru than a uttama devotee in one sense it is all Krishna’s arrangement, according to our qualification. I know not everyone will understand what I am discussing here but I know some, a few will. That’s where my contribution is targeting.

krsna · May 2, 2008

guru is here and now

and at the same time

is beyond the limits of time and space.

the material mind and senses cannot figuire it out

how the transcendent God KRSNA can appear directly as guru to deliver you

from your wicked attachment to mind and false ego.

krsna · May 13, 2008

My Guru is KRSNA's Mercy Manifest

Guru has come to me in the form of KRSNA's own person

The voice of Guru is the voice of KRSNA's heart

Guru is KRSNA's way of my deliverance

krsna · May 14, 2008

So if you can create that central attachment for Krishna,

then it is Vrndavana. Then you can create Vrndavana anywhere -- any family, any society, any country.

Just make the point of attachment Krishna, and it is Vrndavana. That is required. That is Krishna consciousness movement."

(Srila Prabhupada lecture, Vrindavana, 12/10/1975) :pray:

krsna · May 15, 2008

Is A Physically Present Spiritual Master Required?

Absolutely, without which you actually have no direct accesss to KRSNA, Who is only realized through pure spiritual sound vibration emanating from the pure devotee Guru's lips. :pray:

That is a fact: without Guru in a pure spiritual form that you can realize KRSNA , the Supreme Pure Spiritual Person will never manifest in your heart, life and conciousness. The Guru is always fully spiritual; his so-called physical form is in fact non-material. :pray:

The spoken words emanating from his lips churned from his pure heart and conciousness as spiritual sound coming from the Lord's own abode descending to this world through your ear and heart and thereby igniting a total conflagration in your budding KRSNA Consciousness. :pray:

krsna · May 15, 2008

We must hear from the mouth of a pure devotee

SB 4.20.26 PURPORT:

His voice [the pure devotee] is spiritually very powerful because it touches the particles of saffron dust on the lotus feet of the Lord.

The transcendental vibration from the mouth of a pure devotee is so powerful that it can revive the living entity's memory of his eternal relationship with the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

In our material existence, under the influence of illusory maya, we have almost forgotten our eternal relationship with the Lord, exactly like a man sleeping very deeply who forgets his duties. In the Vedas it is said that every one of us is sleeping under the influence of maya.

We must get up from this slumber and engage in the right service, for thus we can properly utilize the facility of this human form of life. As expressed in a song by Thakura Bhaktivinoda, Lord Caitanya says, jiva jaga, jiva jaga. The Lord asks every sleeping living entity to get up and engage in devotional service so that his mission in this human form of life may be fulfilled.

This awakening voice comes through the mouth of a pure devotee.

A pure devotee always engages in the service of the Lord, taking shelter of His lotus feet, and therefore he has a direct connection with the saffron mercy-particles that are strewn over the lotus feet of the Lord. Although when a pure devotee speaks the articulation of his voice may resemble the sound of this material sky, the voice is spiritually very powerful because it touches the particles of saffron dust on the lotus feet of the Lord.

As soon as a sleeping living entity hears the powerful voice emanating from the mouth of a pure devotee, he immediately remembers his eternal relationship with the Lord, although up until that moment he had forgotten everything. For a conditioned soul, therefore, it is very important to hear from the mouth of a pure devotee, who is fully surrendered to the lotus feet of the Lord without any material desire, speculative knowledge or contamination of the modes of material nature.

Every one of us is kuyogi because we have engaged in the service of this material world, forgetting our eternal relationship with the Lord as His eternal loving servants. It is our duty to rise from the kuyoga platform to become suyogis, perfect mystics.

The process of hearing from a pure devotee is recommended in all Vedic scriptures, especially by Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu. One may stay in his position of life -- it does not matter what it is -- but if one hears from the mouth of a pure devotee, he gradually comes to the understanding of his relationship with the Lord and thus engages in His loving service, and his life becomes completely perfect. Therefore, this process of hearing from the mouth of a pure devotee is very important for making progress in the line of spiritual understanding. :pray:

SB 4.20.26 PURPORT

krsna · May 15, 2008

Hear From The Lips Of A Pure Devotee

cbrahma · May 16, 2008

Hear From The Lips Of A Pure Devotee

Yes but the pure devotee doesn't have to be physically present and in the case of Prabhupada he obviously is not.

krsna · May 16, 2008

non-physical -meta-physical- super-spiritual

there is nothing material about Guru

he is coming in from Krsna's abode

Guru is a transmitter of spiritual sound coming from Krsnaloka

eternal-immortal- forever - anti-material

Guru is super-imposed on the material realm by Krsna' s own internal potency thus making the conditioned souls aware by His Divine Grace .

the unlimited sphere of KRSNA's internal energy bhakti -devi is revealed by Guru, otherwise the conditioned soul has no access to KRSNA or KRSNA's potency, ie. bhakti.

krsna · May 18, 2008

Jaya Srila Prabhupada!

AncientMariner · May 18, 2008

Obviously physical presence doesn't guarantee anything because apparently a lot of the gurus that were physically close to Prabhupada ended up having some very serious spiritual problems.

krsna · May 19, 2008

I remember How Srila Prabhupada often warned us against becoming `so-called Christians`. Now some of the so-called `Prabhupada-nugas` are saying he alone is the way and they have no need for the guidance or even association of any living guru. In fact, Riviks are encouraging those who have never had the direct personal association of Srila Prabhupada, while he was alive, to take `initiation` from him with their help and a picture. What to make of all this?

My understanding is that the momentary physical association of a pure devotee transfers His Divine Grace automatically, at least to some extent. I never spoke to Prabhupada, yet he pointed at and forcefully chastised me for not sitting properly, something I still cannot do due to physical problems. I remain without any formal initiation. What to do when no particular present day guru seems comparable to him?

The scriptures tell us that we all need `dust from the lotus feet of the pure devotee`. What's that about? After sweeping the temple room floor when the Sunday feast had finished, I'd pile up all the dust and put some on my head (must be at least one pure devotee there, eh?). Also, how about caranamrita (I used to sneak into the temple room after everyone else was asleep and finish off what was left...)? Then there's Radha-kunda water (still have over a quart left from my visit to India), maha-prasadam, etc. etc. Does it really come down to a matter of faith?

I first saw Srila Prabhupada thirty years ago and that's when he yelled at me, "Sit properly or GET OUT"! The devotees called it special mercy and I seem to have been receiving it ever since... If anyone else finds themselves in a similar position, where they feel they are being forced into Krsna-consciousness in spite of themselves, rather than due to any partcular sadhana they may be performing, I'd certainly like to hear from them (amanpeter@hotmail.com).

Anyway, this is how I see it, prabhus, right or wrong. We've all been touched by His Divine Grace somehow or other... Whether or not we can be defined as devotees is actually irrelevant, because we are all destined to become perfected souls eventually. Sri Guru is one and we are all `under the influence`. Since I am apparently unable to surrender to any one gurudev at this point in time, I seek shelter only in Srimati Radharani (as I see Her), trusting that in the future all necessary arrangements will be made by Her. I'd rather keep vows I haven't made than make vows I do not keep...

I do believe that the process of Bhakti should be much more simple and natural than we tend to make it, for whatever reasons. After all, we are not the controllers, are we? Thank God for that!

valaya RR

[This message from 10-12-2001]

suchandra · May 19, 2008

This is of course a fairy tale teller - Prabhupada repeatedly warned not to worship him after he left like Christians worship Christ. Where're those quotes, there're none!

Caranamrita left in the temple room? - there's never anything left. valaya rr - whoever that maybe, was he ever inside a temple?

krsna · May 19, 2008

hare krishna hare krishna krishna krishna hare hare