Is A Physically Present Spiritual Master Required?

[krsna]

[krsna]

"One cannot deny the order of a spiritual master. Therefore one has to select a spiritual master whose order, carrying, you'll not commit a mistake. You see?

 

Now, suppose if you accept a wrong person as spiritual master, and if you, if he guides you wrongly, then your whole life is spoiled. So one has to accept a spiritual master whose guidance will make his life perfect."

 

His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada: Lecture New York City 1966

[cbrahma]

 

The sound vibration does not require vapu. There are tapes , books, videos etc...

[suchandra]

 

The sound vibration does not require vapu. There are tapes , books, videos etc...

Lots of interesting goodies here

http://www.iskconbangalore.org/

[bija]

[bija]

[bija]

[bija]

This is a transcript from a video by my Gurudeva (who is not His Holiness Srila BV Narayana Maharaja).

 

Those who are not well versed in the subject should be clear about naam-diksha and mantra-diksha and the difference. That is fundamental to this ongoing debate.

 

I appreciate very much the balanced response given below, considering the controversial nature of the subject matter within our lineage of Gaudiya Vaisnavism.

 

If any devotee would like to see the orginal video IM me. But I do hesitate because it is not pleasing to see saintly sadhus like Srila AC Bhaktivedanta Maharaja, Srila BR Sridhara Maharaja, Srila BV Narayana Maharaja, and all our beloved Gurudeva's run through the mud. If these great souls were together in one room, I have no doubt the respect and love would be deep.

 

There is a great need for vaisnava etiquette, maturity, and respect in these discussions.

 

Nityaananda! Gauraanga! Hare Krishna! Jaya Shri Guru Parampara! Pranams to everyone. Thank you for your nice question. Actually Nama shiksha has been the way of transmission of Nama in our Parampara right from the beginning. Harinama,Gaura Nama, Nitai Nama. Nama is totally independent of any other process – diksha puruscariya viddhi apekshana kare. Nama is not expecting any kind of process in its power to purify the individual who is chanting the Name. So, apekshana kare – the Nama will act whether it is received by shiksha or diksha. The Naama is always most powerful. It is non different from Naami, the Lord. The integral nature of the Name is not going to change whether it is received by diksha or shiksha. So, if you see in our Gaudiya Parampara Lord Gaurahari Himself, it is not mentioned that He received the Nama from Ishvara Puri, but it is mentioned He received diksha in a mantra which is the ten-syllable Gopala Mantra, which drowned Him in an ocean of ecstasy. But He received the instruction from His Guru that: naco gao bhakta sane koro sankirtana krishna nama upadeshi tara sarva jana: “You dance and sing the Names and give the Names to everyone and deliver everyone.“ That is what the Lord’s guru instructed Him. But in Harinama Chintamani also by Bhaktivinode Thakur who is the nama rasika acariya who is fully aware of the debth of the Nama Tattva, because he could see the conversation between Haridas Thakur and Lord Gaura in his heart regarding Nama Tattva. So Bhaktivinod Thakur got a full grasp, he is nama-tattva-vit and he coposed HNC in which he describes that though Naam is traditionally not given as diksha still nam can formally be given also as diksha, the formal initiation. We even see in Gaudiya Math during the time of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura Prabhupada the first diksha was known as Ashraya diksha and the second initiation was actually known as diksha, actually not the Naam but it was the Gayatri mantras. That is why it was known as diksha. One could also consider that according to Harinama Cintamani the first process of nama ashraya, hearing the name from the lips of Gurudev and beginning to chant, that process of nama shiksha can also be formalised in the form of nama diksha. That is confirmed by Bhaktivinode Thakur in Harinama Cintamani that there can be one Naama diksha guru and there can be many Naama shiksha gurus. And the Naama diksha guru can himself be the Naama shiksha guru also by imparting more and more detailed teachings of the nama-tattva, the chanting of the names, to the disciple. So, our AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada, he formalized the process of nama shiksha into hari nama diksha. It is his unique contribution to this world. He was the first acariya to implement the teachings of Harinama Cintamani which talks about nama diksha even the nama can be received through formal initiation. In that way both the processes are bonafide as we can learn because Gaurahari and all acariyas they used to chant and sing the Naama, they received mantra shiksha an mantra diksha from their gurus. And those mantras were different from the normal Harinam, Gauranam and Nitai Naam Those mantras were starting with the bija mantras, the Gayatri mantras, the klim mantras. And on the other hand the process of Nama diksha receiveing the Nama directly from the lips of guru in a formal way - that is also approved by HNC. Though Nama is so powerful it does not necessarily have to be received in a formal way. It can be received by shiskha. Somebody can view a video of one’s Guru chanting the Naam and one can be inspired by the divine sound vibration emanating from the lips of Guru and one can begin chanting. That itself – the connections is there, because one has taken ashraya of the Guru who is chanting the Naam, who is giving the Naam. So, Naama shiksha and Naama diksha both are bonafide processes in Kali Yuga. This has been quite a controversial subject matter in our Gaudiya Vaishnava Sampradaya, but my understanding and our understanding is that both processes are bonafide and both are transcendental because both have been practiced and implemented by our Acariyas. So, the most important thing is to receive the Naam, either by shiksha or by diksha from a personality who realizes himself or herself the potency of Naam, the depth of Naam, the spiritual power of Naam. Then our chanting will automatrically fructify very quicjkly. And then one can always take Naama shiksha further from many other advanced devotes who are chanting Naam, nama–tattva-vit. One can always take further guidance, but even the primary naama shiksha guru is normally one and the naama diksha guru is also one. One cannot have many naama diksha gurus for one particular naam. There can be only one naama diksha guru and there can be one primary naama shiksha guru. Whether you receive naama formally from the lips of Gurudev as nama shiksha the naam is going to have effect if you take ashraya of guru and the naam. Of course for getting brahminical qualification like worshipping the Deity and other activities one requires to receive the mantra diksha also. That is more formal kind of a process - Pancaratriki viddhi. The Mantra Diksha is also described in our scriptures – it reinforces our naama bahjan, it does not substitute our naam bhajan, because Naam is the main thing in Kali Yuga. So, one may take mantra diksha or one may not take mantra dishka, but it doesn’t mean that one is not qualified to chant the naam. Everyone is qualified. Acandale. Krishnadas Kaviraja Goswami says that even a lowest person if one vibrates the tongue and chants the Naam one will become purified. The naam will not wait, the Naam wil not think that “O, this individual has not taken diksha!”. The naam is all-powerful. But the process for receiving it from a realized soul – that is very powerful! It opens to us the whole treasure of Naam, either by shiksha or by diksha. Hare Krsna!

[bija]

 

In the Hari-nama-chintamani, Namacharya Shrila Haridasa Thakura explains this point:

avisranta name nama-aparadha jaya;

tahe aparadha kabhu sthana nahi paya.

"Only by continuous chanting of the Hare Krishna Mahamantra day and night can the ten offenses against Krishna's Name be obliterated. By the constant chanting of Krishna's Name, the ten offenses will not be able to again implicate the chanter."

Purport by Shrila Bhaktivinoda Thakura:

"Continuous chanting (avisranta nama)- Only one who chants the Name with great feeling all the time during the day and night except during the time required for fulfilling the most basic bodily necessities like sleep etc. is able to successfully destroy the ten offenses."

Who of us here on this forum can chant continously like this? Non-stop? If we honestly are greedy for that kind of chanting it will come!

Do we all have no hope then to be free of offences, if we can't do this? Or is mercy's nature to extend itself?

We have Deity, we have prasadam, so many things given to us...we can even take full shelter in Lord's Nityananda Gauranga!

There is reason for hope! And there is definately a reason to be greedy for a drop of mercy (unlimited)!

[bija]

I view my spiritual journey back home from a 'long viewpoint'. One that may take many lifetimes coming back to this world to be perfected in love. In fact the desire to come back to this world is an instruction to my mind. The call of love desires love in purity...and this present place is fertile ground to deepen. Personally I feel the Lord's manifestation is perfect, and in His manifold wisdom to rectify our turning away, He has placed each of us in our unique situations. Divine wisdom.

In the above commentary I posted of Sri Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu-bindu, Srila Narayana Maharaja has quoted Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura, that if one does not receive mantra-diksha perfection cannot be obtained. But he does go on to say that due to the devotees bhajan in the life just past, he will be re-born to attain sadhu-sangha.

This is a point of contention and difficulty for some. But I understand that if we can see the eternal picture, spiritual life is positive and progressive unfoldment. For some a rapid unfoldment and for some a gradual process. All dependant upon the Lord's mercy and His devotee, and also the Lord's wisdom.

I like to use the analogy of a tree in my thinking process. Some trees if we watch nature, grow very tall very quick. And some others grow slowly, but become grand trees of majesty and beauty in time. Could our diverse journeys and unfoldments be compared to this? Could the growth of love, personality, and bhakti in the heart be compared to this?

So whether one needs a living Guru, needs diksha etc etc, is not the pressing concern on my mind. My mind is more focused upon where to be granted mercy? Where to find it? That would be my eternal welfare!

The acaryas ways, actions, instructions, and implementations are based upon mercy and compassion. The maha-bhagavata instructor does not have to confrom to a stereo-type. For some devotees they have found mercy in the form of Sri Deity and worship - mantra diksha. Some have found mercy in vani, some in vapu. Some have found the utmost mercy in Sri Naam. Some have found it in books and words of the saints.

Some have found it in Nitaai-Gaura Naam;).

Could it be that we are like the trees in diversity...and the sun rays of divine mercy are touching us in unique ways? That our leaves of our bhakti-creepers are unfolding each to our own individual way, and by wisdom to our individual needs and welfare.

Could it be that mercy is seeking us? How fortunate are we that Sri Gaurahari's Guru instructed him, to hand Naam out freely to purify the whole world! To sing and dance in sankirtan!

Could it be that Krsna loves us so much that his mercy wishes to awaken our search for Him! For some we may be here for quite a while yet....but I have faith that Krsna through the agency of Sri Guru (in various ways) will bring each of us home...in due course.

 

 

Shrila Prabhupada in SB 1.5.16 purport:

"The expert devotees also can discover novel ways and means to convert the nondevotees in terms of particular time and circumstance. Devotional service is dynamic activity, and the expert devotees can find out competent means to inject it into the dull brains of the materialistic population. Such transcendental activities of the devotees for the service of the Lord can bring a new order of life to the foolish society of materialistic men."

Shrila Prabhupada inCc Adi 7.31-32 purport:

"Here is an important point. Lord Chaitanya Mahaprabhu wanted to invent a way to capture the Mayavadis and others who did not take interest in the Krishna consciousness movement. This is the symptom of an acarya. An acarya who comes for the service of the Lord cannot be expected to conform to a stereotype, for he must find the ways and means by which Krishna consciousness may be spread."

 

 

 

[krsna]

 

In the Hari-nama-chintamani, Namacharya Shrila Haridasa Thakura explains this point:

avisranta name nama-aparadha jaya;

tahe aparadha kabhu sthana nahi paya.

"Only by continuous chanting of the Hare Krishna Mahamantra day and night can the ten offenses against Krishna's Name be obliterated. By the constant chanting of Krishna's Name, the ten offenses will not be able to again implicate the chanter."

Purport by Shrila Bhaktivinoda Thakura:

"Continuous chanting (avisranta nama)- Only one who chants the Name with great feeling all the time during the day and night except during the time required for fulfilling the most basic bodily necessities like sleep etc. is able to successfully destroy the ten offenses."

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[bija]

Yes I agree Krsna prabhu. "Wherever mercy descends we gotta go"...I heard one great soul say onetime!

[krsna]

" I am getting the mercy of guru.

This is vani. Even the guru is not physically present, if you follow the vani, then you are getting help. ":pray:

 

 

Sudama: ...Prabhupada, either of those associations, which is the highest?

 

Prabhupada: Both are equal.

 

Sudama: Both are equal?

 

Prabhupada: You have to associate with both. Guru-krsna-krpaya paya bhakti-lata-bija. Both guru's krpa and Krsna's krpa, they must be

joined. Then you will get. (break)

 

Yes. Yasya prasadad bhagavat prasadah. If you get guru's krpa, then automatically you get Krsna.

 

Narayana: Guru-krpa only comes by pleasing the spiritual master, Srila Prabhupada?

 

Prabhupada: Otherwise how it can come?

<SMALL>Narayana:So those disciples who don't have opportunity to see you or </SMALL><SMALL>speak with you... </SMALL>

<SMALL>

</SMALL><SMALL>Prabhupada: That he was speaking, vani and vapuh. Even if you don't see his body, you take his word, vani. </SMALL>

<SMALL>

</SMALL><SMALL>Narayana: But how do they know they're pleasing you, Srila Prabhupada?</SMALL>

<SMALL>

</SMALL><SMALL>Prabhupada: If you actually follow the words of guru, that means he is pleased. And if you do not follow, how he can be pleased? </SMALL>

<SMALL>

Sudama: Not only that, but your mercy is spread everywhere, and if we take advantage, you told us once, then we will feel the result. </SMALL>

<SMALL>

Prabhupada: Yes. </SMALL>

<SMALL>

Jayadvaita: And if we have faith in what the guru says, then automatically we'll do that. </SMALL>

<SMALL>

Prabhupada: Yes. My Guru Maharaja passed in 1936, and I started this movement in 1965, thirty years after. Then?<SMALL> I am getting the mercy of guru. This is vani. Even the guru is not physically present, if you follow the vani, then you are getting help.</SMALL> </SMALL>

<SMALL>

Sudama: So there's no question of ever separation as long as the disciple follows the instruction of guru. </SMALL>

<SMALL>

Prabhupada: <SMALL>No</SMALL>. Cakhu-dan dilo jei... What is that, next one? </SMALL>

<SMALL>

Sudama: Cakhu-dan dilo jei, janme janme prabhu sei. </SMALL>

<SMALL>

Prabhupada:Janme janme prabhu sei. So where there is separation? Who has opened your eyes, he is birth after birth your prabhu.</SMALL>

<SMALL>

Paramahamsa: You never feel any intense separation from your spiritual master?

 

Prabhupada: That you do not require to question. (end)</SMALL>

[bija]

thx

[cbrahma]

I will not blaspheme your spiritual master for the simple reason that it is bad etiquette to do so.

I knew you were a disciple of Narayana Maharaj, because you have his mood.

I also know a number of other such disciples. THEY do blaspheme Prabhupada with impunity by claiming that he didn't preach the highest 'raganuga' bhakti and so on. I will not repeat their blasphemy verbatim because they also determined that he was not on the higher platform himself. One disciple decided that Prabhupada "didn't know" that women couldn't be brhamanas. So many other condescensions poured from their lips.

What is obvious is that they never quote Prabhupada (except to criticize) even if Prabhupada is their diksa spiritual master. That is itself an offense.

So I stopped my association at once. I know I'm going to get ad hominem attackers like Beggar and Co. as soon as I've said this but I don't care. The truth must be declared and their attacks on me are par for the course.

[Beggar]

 

...What is obvious is that they never quote Prabhupada even if Prabhupada is their diksa spiritual master. That is itself an offense.

So I stopped my association at once. I know I'm going to get ad hominem attackers like Beggar and Co. as soon as I've said this by I don't care. The truth must be declared and their attacks on me are par for the course.

 

Here is post #14 on Who is Srila Prabhupada who made 'Hare Krsna' famous:

 

In a lecture given by Prabhupada in Bombay, November 14, 1974,

Our business is very simple because we take the words of Krsna as it is. That's all. Krsna says, satatam kirtayanto mam yatantas ca drdha-vratah [bg. 9.14]. So we are simply... We don't want to be very learned. We simply want blessings of you all, that let us become so much learned that we can follow the instruction of Krsna. That's all. We don't want anything more. We don't want. Therefore we're sticking to Krsna consciousness movement on the basis of Bhagavad-gita. And a little farther advanced, by reading Srimad-Bhagavatam. These are krsna-katha. And as I have told you, the Caitanya Mahaprabhu says that "Every one of you, especially Indians..." Indians? They are imitating this material civilization. Horrible. Therefore Caitanya Mahaprabhu has given us open way:

 

bharata-bhumite haila manusya-janma yara

janma sarthaka kari' kara para-upakara

[Cc. Adi 9.41]

 

This is Indian's business, para-upakara. The whole world is in darkness without Krsna consciousness. Every Indian should first of all make his life successful by understanding Krsna consciousness, Bhagavad-gita, and preach it all over the world. That is the Indian business.

[Beggar]

Post #940 entitiled: dear bija

I will not blaspheme your spiritual master for the simple reason that it is bad etiquette to do so.

I knew you were a disciple of Narayana Maharaj, because you have his mood...

 

Post #933

 

This is a transcript from a video by my Gurudeva (who is not His Holiness Srila BV Narayana Maharaja).

 

Maybe cbrahma's oddball, paranoid, IRM influenced viewpoint would be different if he was able to process information in a successful way.

[krsna]

[Beggar]

 

I also know a number of other such disciples. THEY do blaspheme Prabhupada with impunity by claiming that he didn't preach the highest 'raganuga' bhakti and so on. I will not repeat their blasphemy verbatim because they also determined that he was not on the higher platform himself.

 

Mathura, India: October 12, 1996

Tridandisvami Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja,

 

Parama-pujyapada Srila Svami Maharaja has come especially to give this – rupanuga-bhakti. He did not come only to give raganuga-bhakti, nor did he come only to give vaidhi-bhakti. He could not give this to his general disciples at that time, however, because most of them were not in the stage to understand. Even now I am endeavoring with great labor to make you understand, but still only a few are trying to understand. About 25 years ago, when Srila Svami Maharaja went to America to preach, how could he openly preach this topic? There was practically no one qualified to understand – and thus he was mostly engaged in cutting jungles.

The entire disciplic-succession of our Gaudiya mission is rupanuga. The sampradaya of Srila Nimbarkacarya is raganuga, but of Dvaraka – of Satyabhama and Rukmini. His followers are not like Srila Rupa Gosvami. Only the acaryas coming in the line of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu are rupanuga.

Srila Svami Maharaja came to give what is already in each soul.

krti-sadhya bhavet sadhya-

bhava sa sadhanabhidha

nitya-siddhasya bhavasya

prakatyam hrdi sadhyata

[“When transcendental devotional service, by which love for Krsna is attained, is executed by the senses, it is called sadhana-bhakti, or the regulative discharge of devotional service. Such devotion eternally exists within the heart of every living entity. The awakening of this eternal devotion is the potentiality of devotional service in practice.”]

The soul is perfect in itself. The soul’s relation with Krsna, its name, qualities and all specialities, are already present within. This perfection is not brought from outside. Unfortunately maya covers it, but Sri Guru removes that maya and then everything manifests automatically.

[krsna]

[krsna]

[krsna]

[cbrahma]

This is a discussion forum, not a photo gallery. Although I appreciate the pics, I don't get what the relevance is to this particular thread.

[krsna]

One (1)pic is worth a thousand (1000)words.

 

Read between the pics and see what is meant by ...

 

" the pure devotee can make KRSNA appear in your heart by dint of his pure un-alloyed devotion to Sri Hari KRSNA!"

[cbrahma]

 

One (1)pic is worth a thousand (1000)words.

 

Read between the pics and see what is meant by ...

 

" the pure devotee can make KRSNA appear in your heart by dint of his pure un-alloyed devotion to Sri Hari KRSNA!"

so you're communicating in visual code now?