Is A Physically Present Spiritual Master Required?

[krsna]

<TT>

</TT>70-01-23 Letter: Hamsaduta

The next question: the body of a pure devotee is all spiritual and He is not different from His body. That is also a fact. The bodies of all living entities, even though they are not pure devotees, are not actually the bodies of the spirit soul. It is always separate from the spiritual body.

 

The Vedic mantra confirm it by the sound vibration that this spirit soul is always nonattached with the material body. Therefore, we do not see the actual spiritual body of a pure devotee; but what we see, that is matter.

Just like the example is given of the shining moon covered by the cloud. When the cloud moves along with the peeping moonshine, it appears that the moon is moving. Anyone who has seen such movement of cloud in the sky must have this experience. So, the moving of the cloud may appear to the layman's eyes as moving of the moon, but that is not a fact.

 

Similarly, the moving of the body of a pure devotee is not the moving of the pure devotee. After all these are facts for the process of realization, but we can try to understand them as far as possible from the statement of authorized Scriptures through the version of the Spiritual Master or saintly person.

[AncientMariner]

Krsna. What devotee of Krishna do you advocate that people should be devoted to now that Prabhuapda is not physically present?

[krsna]

 

Krsna. What devotee of Krishna do you advocate that people should be devoted to now that Prabhuapda is not physically present?

 

That devotee who can give you KRSNA 100%!!!

[AncientMariner]

 

That devotee who can give you KRSNA 100%!!!

 

 

 

My three favorites are Srila Prabhupada, Lord Rsabadheva and Jada Bharata.

[AncientMariner]

 

Srila Prabhupada: That is not the problem. The problem is whether you are sincere. You have problems, but God is within your heart. Isvarah sarva-bhutanam. God is not far away. If you are sincere, God sends you a spiritual master. Therefore God is also called caitya-guru, the spiritual master within the heart. God helps from within and from without. Everything is thus described in the Bhagavad-gita. This material body is like a machine, but within the heart is the soul, and with the soul is the Supersoul, Krsna, who gives directions. The Lord says, "You wanted to do this; now here is the chance. Go and do it." If you are sincere, you say, "Now, God, I want You." Then He will give you directions. "Yes, now you come and get Me like this." This is His kindness. However, if we want something else, that is all right. We can have it.

 

God is very kind. When I want something, He is in my heart directing me and telling me how to have it. So why should He not give directions on how to have a spiritual master? First of all we must again be eager to revive our God consciousness. Then God will give us a spiritual master.

 

 

------------------

 

Alright now :so how many of you guys out there in cyber-loka really want God *KRSNA* and to develop pure unalloyed love*PREMA* for Him. If you people ain't serious why in KRSNA's name should He bother to send you His pure devotee*GURU* to give Krsna when at heart you actually don't want *KRSNA* but still longing for illusion*MAYA*???

 

---------------------

 

 

The only problem I have with this post is it seems you are displaying an attitude that you yourself are completetly free from maya which may or may not be the case who knows but it seems you are preaching down to everyone that isn't. My understanding of pure Vaisnavas is that they view themselves as the most fallen of the fallen and see themselves even as lower than straw in the street or even as low as a worm in stool. Not only that even if people turn to Krishna out of desire for something material my understanding is they shoud still be viewed as devotees on some level.

[krsna]

 

The only problem I have with this post is it seems you are displaying an attitude that you yourself are completetly free from maya which may or may not be the case who knows but it seems you are preaching down to everyone that isn't. My understanding of pure Vaisnavas is that they view themselves as the most fallen of the fallen and see themselves even as lower than straw in the street or even as low as a worm in stool. Not only that even if people turn to Krishna out of desire for something material my understanding is they shoud still be viewed as devotees on some level.

 

ok

[AncientMariner]

 

ok

 

 

Thanks for listening.

[krsna]

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=550 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD>

 

by Sripad Swami B. G. Narasingha

 

 

 

The meaning of the words, "Guru is one" are derived from the sanskrit words

, 'akhanda-guru-tattva'.

This means the

undivided (akhanda)

principle of the

guru-tattva.

This

akhanda

(undivided)

guru-tattva

manifests in three aspects, namely: caitya-

guru

,

diksa

-

guru

, and

siksa

-

guru

respectively. Caitya-

guru

is the Supersoul within the heart of the living entity.

Diksa

-

guru

and

siksa

-

guru

are the two kinds of

gurus

appearing externally as pure devotees of the Supreme Lord. The

diksa

and

siksa

-

gurus

are considered equal manifestations of Krishna because they manifest to take the disciple back to Godhead. The individuality of the

diksa

and

siksa

-

gurus

exists as Vaishnavas but in purpose they are one – they are equal manifestations of Krishna and therefore they are said to be 'one'.

 

The position of the bona fide

guru

in Krishna consciousness is realized by a bona fide disciple in stages according to the disciples subjective achievement. First the disciple may realize the

guru

to be the representative of Krishna. The next higher stage is that the disciple realizes that the

guru

is a manifestation of Baladeva Prabhu or Sri Nityananda Prabhu. Baladeva-tattva is the energy of the Supreme Lord that manifest the pastimes or

lilas

of the Lord. Baladeva Prabhu manifests directly as Sri Nityananda Prabhu to canvases the conditioned living entities to become engaged in the Lords transcendental service. Canvassing on behalf of the Supreme Lord is the work of Sri Gurudeva and therefore he is recognized as the manifestation of Baladeva Prabhu or Sri Nityananda Prabhu.

 

Baladeva Prabhu or Sri Nityananda Prabhu are the ultimate

guru

principle (

guru-tattva

) for all devotees in

dasya, sakya,

and

vatsalya-rasa

in either Krishna-lila and Gaura-lila respectively. According to the disciples advancement

in rasa-tattva

the disciple will realize that Sri Gurudeva is a leader of a particular group of eternal servitors of the Supreme Lord.

 

The next higher realization of the disciple is that the

guru

is the leader among

the madhurya-rasa

section as one of the maid servants (either

sakhi

or manjari)

of Srimati Radharani. Srimati Radharani is the highest figure in the

madhurya-rasa

section for it is She only who knows how to satisfy the transcendental senses of Sri Krishna. When this understanding develops in the heart of a bone fide disciple he soon realizes that Srimati Radharani Herself has directly taken the position of Sri Gurudeva. The highest concept of

guru-tattva

revealed by Srila Rupa Goswami and similar eternal servants of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu was that Srimati Radharani is the ultimate

guru

. Radharani is the master of loving exchanges – even Sri Krishna is Her beloved student in such matters. Therefore in the last stage of realization in Krishna consciousness the disciple realizes Sri Gurudeva to be a direct manifestation of Srimati Radharani.

 

That Sri Gurudeva is the manifestation of Srimati Radharani is the purport of Viswanatha Cakravarti Thakura's verse:

 

saksad-dharitvena samasta-sastrair

 

 

"The spiritual master is the dearmost servant of Sri Hari being the nondifferent form of the Supreme Lord." (Sri Sri Gurvastakam # 7)

 

The dearmost servant of Krishna (Sri Hari) is indeed Srimati Radharani and the nondifferent form of the Supreme Lord is also Srimati Radharani. Radha and Krishna are the One Absolute Truth manifest in two for the purpose of enjoying transcendental pastimes.

 

 

radha-krsna pranaya-vikrtir hladini saktir asmad

ekatmanau api bhuvipura deha-bhedam gatau tau

caitanyakhyam prakatam adhuna tad-dvayam caikyam aptam

radha-bhava-dyuti-suvalitam naumi krsna-svarupam

 

 

"The loving affairs of Radha Krishna are transcendental manifestations of the Lord's internal pleasure-giving potency. Although Radha and Krishna are one in Their identity, They have separated Themselves eternally. Now these two transcendental identities have again united in the form of Sri Krishna Caitanya. I bow down to Him, who has manifested Himself with the sentiment and complexion of Srimati Radharani although He is Krishna Himself." (C.c. Adi 1.1.5)

 

Following the above thought Sri Gurudeva may also be realized as gaura-tattva or nondifferent from Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. In this case the disciple ultimately realizes that Sri Gurudeva is a direct manifestation of Sri Gadadhara Pandit who is the bhava or the manifest emotions of Srimati Radharani.

 

 

dvijendra-vrnda-vandya-pada-yugma-bhakti-vardhakam

nijesu radhikatmata-vapuh-prakacanagraham

asesa-bhakti-sastra-siksayojjvalamrta-prabam

bhajamy aham gadadharam supanditam gurum prabhum

 

 

"I worship the greatly learned spiritual master, Srila Gadadhara Prabhu, who expands the mellows of devotional service and whose lotus feet are worshipped by the kings of the Brahmans. Among his confidential associates, he reveals his actual form as Srimati Radharani. He distributes the nectar of the ecstatic mellow of the gopis conjugal love, strictly following the instructions of all the devotional scriptures." (

Sri Sri Gadadhara Astakam

#6)

 

The above mentioned points of guru-tattva are all relative realizations of the position of the guru according to the disciples advancement in Krishna consciousness. This is the Gaudiya-siddhanta of the guru-tattva as revealed by previous acharyas in our parampara.

The position of the guru is relative according to the disciples realization but in all cases the guru means 'Krishna'. The position of guru in terms of the internal service position of the disciple becomes more and more specific as the disciple makes advancement in Krishna consciousness but the same akhanda-guru-tattva (undivided principle) remains throughout. Guru is one.

Everything in the Absolute World is also Absolute. Every particle of the Infinite is also Infinite but to taste the spiritual variegatedness in the Absolute World it is necessary to develop transcendental discrimination.

Srila Prabhupada used to say, "Guru means to repeat the words of Krishna without adding one's own interpretation and therefore guru cannot be two."

Krishna says: acaryam mam vijaniyan

 

"One should know the

acarya (guru)

as Myself." (

Bhag.

11.17.27)

 

This verse although generally taken literally to mean that the guru is nondifferent from Krishna also indicates that the guru is nondifferent than Srimati Radharani. Indeed the very 'Self' of Sri Krishna is Srimati Radharani.

Although the guru is in most cases a jiva (jiva-tattva) he is not to be considered as such. His position is two-fold. As a Vaishnava he is considered a jiva but the disciple is not so much concerned with that position. The disciple is mainly concerned with the delegation of Krishna manifest in Gurudeva and that is the guru-tattva. So the guru's position is two fold – he is jiva-tattva and he is guru-tattva. We do not say that Gurudeva is 'jiva-tattva', rather we say that Gurudeva is 'guru-tattva' or 'acarya-tattva'. In this way the disciple always keeps the conception of Sri Gurudeva above that of the ordinary human being.

Frequently devotees do not make these discriminations but this is due to their not diving deep within the ocean of Krishna consciousness. Madhyama-adhikari means the plane of careful and accurate discrimination. Such discrimination is necessary in order to reach the stage of uttama-adhikari (first class devotee).

On Ekadasi we may offer prasadam with grains to a photo of Gurudeva on the altar while engaged in worshipping the Deity of Radha and Krishna, but in his room on that same day we only offer Gurudeva standard Ekadasi prasadam. While performing worship the disciple sees no difference between guru and Krishna but while rendering personal service to Sri Gurudeva the disciple makes a discrimination in order to please Gurudeva understanding that he considers himself a Vaishnava (servant of the Lord) and not the Lord directly. In the event that a guru declares himself to be Krishna it becomes clear that he has no actual knowledge of the science of Krishna consciousness. A bona fide guru never claims to be Krishna.

It is standard in Gaudiya-sampradaya that tulasi leaves are only offered to the lotus feet of Krishna (visnu-tattva) but the disciple understanding that the guru's heart is one with Krishna, places a tulasi leaf of the chest of Sri Gurudeva while performing worship.

The oneness of guru is to be meditated on as prescribed in the guru-mantra (aim gurave namah) and the guru-gayatri – "I respectfully dedicate my heart and soul to the holy service of Sri Sri Radha-Krishna through service to Sri Gurudeva, who is a nondifferent manifestation of Their mercy."

In the guru-gayatri the word krsnanandaya indicates the internal identity of the guru in Krishna-lila. Sometimes the word gaurapriyatva is also used in the guru-gayatri and this indicates the identity of the guru in Gaura-lila. Krishna-lila and Gaura-lila are also considered to be one or nondifferent.

The meaning of krsnanandaya is threefold: (1) Krsnananda means to meditate on that guru whose entire happiness in life is Krishna, or that guru whose heart is full of the beauty of ecstatic love for Krishna. (2) Krsnananda means to meditate on that guru who gives pleasure to his dearmost Lord Krishna through his pure devotional service. (3) In the word krsnananda, krsna is Sri Krishna and ananda is hladini Srimati Radharani, so krsnanandaya means meditation on Sri Gurudeva who is the representative of both Radha and Krsna combined. These three aspects of the term krsnanandaya may be applied to gurus.

The term gaurapriyatva is another significant definition of Sri Gurudeva. The word gaurapriya has two connotations: (1) One who is beloved to Gaura. (2) One in whose life Sri Gaura is the dearmost object of devotion.

According to the realization of pure devotees gaurapriya and krsnapriya are parallel – a guru of Krishna-lila and a guru of Gaura-lila are nondifferent.

The more we continue to examine the guru-tattva principle the more we can see that there is oneness and difference between Sri Gurudeva and Krishna (between Krishna and His potency) – that is achintya-beda-abeda-tattva or simultaneous oneness and difference as taught by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

[AncientMariner]

Wow I went back and read a lot of this thread and it was like a trip down memory lane. I saw a bunch of Guruvani's posts when he was a ritvik advocate before he suddenly proclaimed that all of Srila Prabhupadas books should be retired and restricted from the public and that Narayana Maharaja was Prabhupada's successor and only Narayana Maharaja's books should be distributed. Haven't heard anything from Guruvani since then but I am patiently awaiting his return to the forums!

[AncientMariner]

 

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=550 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD>

 

 

by Sripad Swami B. G. Narasingha

 

 

 

The meaning of the words, "Guru is one" are derived from the sanskrit words

, 'akhanda-guru-tattva'.

This means the

undivided (akhanda)

principle of the

guru-tattva.

This

akhanda

(undivided)

guru-tattva

manifests in three aspects, namely: caitya-

guru

,

diksa

-

guru

, and

siksa

-

guru

respectively. Caitya-

guru

is the Supersoul within the heart of the living entity.

Diksa

-

guru

and

siksa

-

guru

are the two kinds of

gurus

appearing externally as pure devotees of the Supreme Lord. The

diksa

and

siksa

-

gurus

are considered equal manifestations of Krishna because they manifest to take the disciple back to Godhead. The individuality of the

diksa

and

siksa

-

gurus

exists as Vaishnavas but in purpose they are one – they are equal manifestations of Krishna and therefore they are said to be 'one'.

 

The position of the bona fide

guru

in Krishna consciousness is realized by a bona fide disciple in stages according to the disciples subjective achievement. First the disciple may realize the

guru

to be the representative of Krishna. The next higher stage is that the disciple realizes that the

guru

is a manifestation of Baladeva Prabhu or Sri Nityananda Prabhu. Baladeva-tattva is the energy of the Supreme Lord that manifest the pastimes or

lilas

of the Lord. Baladeva Prabhu manifests directly as Sri Nityananda Prabhu to canvases the conditioned living entities to become engaged in the Lords transcendental service. Canvassing on behalf of the Supreme Lord is the work of Sri Gurudeva and therefore he is recognized as the manifestation of Baladeva Prabhu or Sri Nityananda Prabhu.

 

Baladeva Prabhu or Sri Nityananda Prabhu are the ultimate

guru

principle (

guru-tattva

) for all devotees in

dasya, sakya,

and

vatsalya-rasa

in either Krishna-lila and Gaura-lila respectively. According to the disciples advancement

in rasa-tattva

the disciple will realize that Sri Gurudeva is a leader of a particular group of eternal servitors of the Supreme Lord.

 

The next higher realization of the disciple is that the

guru

is the leader among

the madhurya-rasa

section as one of the maid servants (either

sakhi

or manjari)

of Srimati Radharani. Srimati Radharani is the highest figure in the

madhurya-rasa

section for it is She only who knows how to satisfy the transcendental senses of Sri Krishna. When this understanding develops in the heart of a bone fide disciple he soon realizes that Srimati Radharani Herself has directly taken the position of Sri Gurudeva. The highest concept of

guru-tattva

revealed by Srila Rupa Goswami and similar eternal servants of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu was that Srimati Radharani is the ultimate

guru

. Radharani is the master of loving exchanges – even Sri Krishna is Her beloved student in such matters. Therefore in the last stage of realization in Krishna consciousness the disciple realizes Sri Gurudeva to be a direct manifestation of Srimati Radharani.

 

That Sri Gurudeva is the manifestation of Srimati Radharani is the purport of Viswanatha Cakravarti Thakura's verse:

 

 

saksad-dharitvena samasta-sastrair

 

 

"The spiritual master is the dearmost servant of Sri Hari being the nondifferent form of the Supreme Lord." (Sri Sri Gurvastakam # 7)

 

 

The dearmost servant of Krishna (Sri Hari) is indeed Srimati Radharani and the nondifferent form of the Supreme Lord is also Srimati Radharani. Radha and Krishna are the One Absolute Truth manifest in two for the purpose of enjoying transcendental pastimes.

 

 

 

radha-krsna pranaya-vikrtir hladini saktir asmad

 

 

 

ekatmanau api bhuvipura deha-bhedam gatau tau

 

 

 

caitanyakhyam prakatam adhuna tad-dvayam caikyam aptam

 

 

 

radha-bhava-dyuti-suvalitam naumi krsna-svarupam

 

 

"The loving affairs of Radha Krishna are transcendental manifestations of the Lord's internal pleasure-giving potency. Although Radha and Krishna are one in Their identity, They have separated Themselves eternally. Now these two transcendental identities have again united in the form of Sri Krishna Caitanya. I bow down to Him, who has manifested Himself with the sentiment and complexion of Srimati Radharani although He is Krishna Himself." (C.c. Adi 1.1.5)

 

 

Following the above thought Sri Gurudeva may also be realized as gaura-tattva or nondifferent from Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. In this case the disciple ultimately realizes that Sri Gurudeva is a direct manifestation of Sri Gadadhara Pandit who is the bhava or the manifest emotions of Srimati Radharani.

 

 

 

dvijendra-vrnda-vandya-pada-yugma-bhakti-vardhakam

 

 

 

nijesu radhikatmata-vapuh-prakacanagraham

 

 

 

asesa-bhakti-sastra-siksayojjvalamrta-prabam

 

 

 

bhajamy aham gadadharam supanditam gurum prabhum

 

 

"I worship the greatly learned spiritual master, Srila Gadadhara Prabhu, who expands the mellows of devotional service and whose lotus feet are worshipped by the kings of the Brahmans. Among his confidential associates, he reveals his actual form as Srimati Radharani. He distributes the nectar of the ecstatic mellow of the gopis conjugal love, strictly following the instructions of all the devotional scriptures." (

Sri Sri Gadadhara Astakam

#6)

 

 

The above mentioned points of guru-tattva are all relative realizations of the position of the guru according to the disciples advancement in Krishna consciousness. This is the Gaudiya-siddhanta of the guru-tattva as revealed by previous acharyas in our parampara.

The position of the guru is relative according to the disciples realization but in all cases the guru means 'Krishna'. The position of guru in terms of the internal service position of the disciple becomes more and more specific as the disciple makes advancement in Krishna consciousness but the same akhanda-guru-tattva (undivided principle) remains throughout. Guru is one.

Everything in the Absolute World is also Absolute. Every particle of the Infinite is also Infinite but to taste the spiritual variegatedness in the Absolute World it is necessary to develop transcendental discrimination.

Srila Prabhupada used to say, "Guru means to repeat the words of Krishna without adding one's own interpretation and therefore guru cannot be two."

Krishna says: acaryam mam vijaniyan

"One should know the

acarya (guru)

as Myself." (

Bhag.

11.17.27)

 

 

This verse although generally taken literally to mean that the guru is nondifferent from Krishna also indicates that the guru is nondifferent than Srimati Radharani. Indeed the very 'Self' of Sri Krishna is Srimati Radharani.

Although the guru is in most cases a jiva (jiva-tattva) he is not to be considered as such. His position is two-fold. As a Vaishnava he is considered a jiva but the disciple is not so much concerned with that position. The disciple is mainly concerned with the delegation of Krishna manifest in Gurudeva and that is the guru-tattva. So the guru's position is two fold – he is jiva-tattva and he is guru-tattva. We do not say that Gurudeva is 'jiva-tattva', rather we say that Gurudeva is 'guru-tattva' or 'acarya-tattva'. In this way the disciple always keeps the conception of Sri Gurudeva above that of the ordinary human being.

Frequently devotees do not make these discriminations but this is due to their not diving deep within the ocean of Krishna consciousness. Madhyama-adhikari means the plane of careful and accurate discrimination. Such discrimination is necessary in order to reach the stage of uttama-adhikari (first class devotee).

On Ekadasi we may offer prasadam with grains to a photo of Gurudeva on the altar while engaged in worshipping the Deity of Radha and Krishna, but in his room on that same day we only offer Gurudeva standard Ekadasi prasadam. While performing worship the disciple sees no difference between guru and Krishna but while rendering personal service to Sri Gurudeva the disciple makes a discrimination in order to please Gurudeva understanding that he considers himself a Vaishnava (servant of the Lord) and not the Lord directly. In the event that a guru declares himself to be Krishna it becomes clear that he has no actual knowledge of the science of Krishna consciousness. A bona fide guru never claims to be Krishna.

It is standard in Gaudiya-sampradaya that tulasi leaves are only offered to the lotus feet of Krishna (visnu-tattva) but the disciple understanding that the guru's heart is one with Krishna, places a tulasi leaf of the chest of Sri Gurudeva while performing worship.

The oneness of guru is to be meditated on as prescribed in the guru-mantra (aim gurave namah) and the guru-gayatri – "I respectfully dedicate my heart and soul to the holy service of Sri Sri Radha-Krishna through service to Sri Gurudeva, who is a nondifferent manifestation of Their mercy."

In the guru-gayatri the word krsnanandaya indicates the internal identity of the guru in Krishna-lila. Sometimes the word gaurapriyatva is also used in the guru-gayatri and this indicates the identity of the guru in Gaura-lila. Krishna-lila and Gaura-lila are also considered to be one or nondifferent.

The meaning of krsnanandaya is threefold: (1) Krsnananda means to meditate on that guru whose entire happiness in life is Krishna, or that guru whose heart is full of the beauty of ecstatic love for Krishna. (2) Krsnananda means to meditate on that guru who gives pleasure to his dearmost Lord Krishna through his pure devotional service. (3) In the word krsnananda, krsna is Sri Krishna and ananda is hladini Srimati Radharani, so krsnanandaya means meditation on Sri Gurudeva who is the representative of both Radha and Krsna combined. These three aspects of the term krsnanandaya may be applied to gurus.

The term gaurapriyatva is another significant definition of Sri Gurudeva. The word gaurapriya has two connotations: (1) One who is beloved to Gaura. (2) One in whose life Sri Gaura is the dearmost object of devotion.

According to the realization of pure devotees gaurapriya and krsnapriya are parallel – a guru of Krishna-lila and a guru of Gaura-lila are nondifferent.

The more we continue to examine the guru-tattva principle the more we can see that there is oneness and difference between Sri Gurudeva and Krishna (between Krishna and His potency) – that is achintya-beda-abeda-tattva or simultaneous oneness and difference as taught by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

 

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

 

 

I have noticed some of those type of concepts in theists posts.

[krsna]

 

 

"Yes, you must accept." That is preaching.

 

 

Morning Walk "Scientific Church" Los Angeles, December 11, 1973

 

Hrdayananda: The difficulty is that nowadays every common man has his own God..., theory of God consciousness.

 

Prabhupada: No, no, every common man he says "I got my mathematics." Will he be accepted?

 

Hrdayananda: No.

 

Prabhupada: So why these things should be allowed? That is our proposition. Every man will say, "No, I've got my own mathematics." Will he be allowed? So we have to fight, otherwise what is the meaning of preaching?

 

Hrdayananda: Fight.

 

Prabhupada: If you think that everything will be accepted very easily, then what is the necessity of preaching?

 

Hrdayananda: Jaya!

 

Prabhupada: And propaganda.

Hrdayananda: You have to fight.

 

Prabhupada: You must know that they are all rascals. That I said, rascals, unbelievers. You have to convert them to be sane man. That is preaching.

 

Hrdayananda: Jaya.

 

Prabhupada: That is preaching. What do you expect that every man will immediately go and he'll agree with you? Why do you expect like that? That is foolishness.

 

Hrdayananda: Jaya!

 

Prabhupada: You must know that everybody will disagree with you, and it is your preaching work that you will make him agree with you. That is your preaching work.

Hrdayananda: Jaya, Prabhupada! As your example.

 

Prabhupada: Yes. We do not expect that everyone will agree. Everybody will disagree. Just like our book. Say, four, five years ago, nobody knew these books. So there was no market. But we have created our market. That is preaching. We have created our market. Nobody was dying for want of these books. So that is preaching. Preaching does not mean everyone is ready to accept your theories. You must expect that everyone will not accept it. Now it is your power to convince him, "Yes, you must accept." That is preaching.

Hrdayananda: Jaya, Prabhupada.

[AncientMariner]

Originally Posted by krsna

"One should not proudly think that one can understand the transcendental loving

service of the Lord simply by reading books... One must accept a Vaisnava guru

(adau gurv-asrayam), and then by questions and answers one should gradually

learn what pure devotional service to Krsna is. That is called the parampara

system." (Cc. Antya-lila 7.53, purp.)

 

— AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

 

 

 

 

 

 

You isolated that quote out of context and obscured the real meaning.

The orginal quote comes from an example of a scholar trying to understand scripture without accepting the commentary of the acharyas.

 

I can't think of a better example than this one of how the words of Srila Prabhupada can be taken out of context to support concepts that actually go against the intended meaning.

 

 

I have read this Prabhupada quote many times before. Is it true there is more context to this quote, I would be curious to see the whole quote if what Guruvani was saying is true.

[AncientMariner]

 

So this is how people in general see present ISKCON, "nasty things going on after Prabhupada has left". Even if that "nasty things going on" would stop, still, people would only believe when there's also wonderful activities, not just talk.

 

 

 

from: http://www.kheper.net/topics/gurus/listing.html

<TABLE cellPadding=2 width="100%" summary="tabulation of gurus" border=5><TBODY><TR><TD>Guru or Master</TD><TD>Organisation</TD><TD>Teaching</TD><TD>Abuse?</TD><TD>Category</TD><TD>Short summary, influence and present status</TD></TR></TBODY><TBODY><TR><TD>Adi Da

(Da Free John)

</TD><TD>Laughing Man Institute, Adidam</TD><TD>Eastern</TD><TD>Criticism, Problems with Adi Da, The Cult of Adi-Da?, re: Adi Da</TD><TD><CENTER>(to add)</CENTER></TD><TD>A controversial guru, former disciple of Muktananda. Has changed his name many times. Some devotees have been traumatised by him, others benefitted. Claims to be first the avatar of this age and for that matter the only 7th Stage Realiser of all time. His material is very well written. I would interpret him as having powerful experiences of enlightenment but whose personality/vehicle is not strong enough to cope with the downflux of higher light. A lot of lower Affective power, ego inflation and intermediate zone perspective. Large following in the West - chiefly in America. Large literary production.</TD></TR><TR><TD>Sri Aurobindo</TD><TD>Sri Aurobindo Society</TD><TD>Hindu</TD><TD>None</TD><TD><CENTER>(to add)</CENTER></TD><TD>A visionary philosopher, a poet, a meta-enlightened being, an avatar, attained the Manifest Absolute, and worked towards establishing it on Earth. After his death his work was carried on by his spiritual co-worker Mirra Alfassa ("The Mother"). Some limited influence among certain intellectuals, a small but dedicated following worldwide</TD></TR><TR><TD>H. B. Blavatsky</TD><TD>Theosophy</TD><TD>Occult</TD><TD>None</TD><TD>Avidya?/Astral</TD><TD>Almost single-handedly initiated the Western occult/esoteric revival. Not an enlightened being, but still enormously significant. </TD></TR><TR><TD>Andrew Cohen</TD><TD>No formal organisation</TD><TD>Integral movement</TD><TD>Extensive psychological manipulation and financial exploitation of followers, under the guise of "breaking down the ego". See What Enlightenment? blog for more.</TD><TD>IZ-a but may be only sporadic</TD><TD>Small following in America, mostly on Ken Wilber's recommendation. His magazine <CITE>What Is Enlightenment?</CITE> is distributed widely</TD></TR><TR></TR><TR><TD>Aleister Crowley</TD><TD>O.T.O.</TD><TD>Occult</TD><TD>No</TD><TD>IZ-a Subtle</TD><TD>Occultist, prankster, hedonist, poet, writer, considered an avatar of the new aeon by his followers; heavy astral consciousness, the single most influential figure in 20th century Hermeticism; influenced Wicca and (indirectly) L.R. Hubbard.</TD></TR><TR><TD>G. I Gurdjieff</TD><TD>"The Work", "Fouth Way" etc</TD><TD>Occult</TD><TD>Guru: A master manipulator

Organisation: No

</TD><TD>IZ-a Gross?</TD><TD>Tremendous physical and psychic consciousness, power and will, not enlightened, a manipulator, his ideas have been subtly influential throughout much of western esotericism, even reappearing in New Age form.</TD></TR><TR><TD>Lord Hamsah Manarah. </TD><TD>Aumist religion ['Aumisme'] </TD><TD>New Age</TD><TD>need to research</TD><TD>IZ-a/IZ-b subtle</TD><TD>Claimed to be the reincarnation of Christ, Buddha, Napoleon and Pythagoras. Teaches he is to save humanity from self-destruction. Such inflated claims indicate he has been fooled by impressions from the from the Affective worlds or Intermediate Zone. About 40 monks/nuns and about 100 lay followers, 1,000 worldwide.</TD></TR><TR></TR><TR><TD>L. Ron Hubbard;</TD><TD>Scientology</TD><TD>a little of everything!</TD><TD>abuses galore!</TD><TD>Avidya</TD><TD>A former science fiction writer (I once read one of his early stories - quite clever!), he realised the best way to make a million was start his own religion. The greatest con-artist of our age. Thanks to courting movie stars who are given preferential treatment and in return provide oodles of good publicity, The Church of Scientology is as powerful as ever</TD></TR><TR><TD>C. J. Jung</TD><TD>Analytical Psychology</TD><TD>Psychology</TD><TD>None</TD><TD>IZ-a Subtle?</TD><TD>A brilliant analyst of human nature, student of mythic symbols, insightful but not enlightened, treated the women in his life badly. Enormous influence outside psychology, one of the great figures of the 20th century </TD></TR><TR><TD>Prem Rawat; formerly Guru Maharaji</TD><TD>Divine Light Mission, Elan Vital</TD><TD>"The Knowledge" is from Sant Mat</TD><TD>Avidya</TD><TD>Made millions from his devotees from the 60s onwards, even his own Boeing. I have been told by someone who seems to me respectable that his followers still resort to thuggery and so warned against criticising him publically (I cannot confirm this). Criticism on Wikipedia</TD><TD>Started out as the ice-cream eating boy guru hailed as an avatar or "The Lord Of The Universe"; basically an average Joe, his status as a master is luducrious. I heard him talk when he came to Melbourne. In no way an enlightened being. Formerly big following in the West</TD></TR><TR><TD>Mahareshi Mahesh Yogi</TD><TD>TM</TD><TD>Hindu</TD><TD>The movement sells fake mantras and spiritual techniques at progressively very high prices.</TD><TD>Avidya</TD><TD>Basically took advantage of his connections with the Beatles to set himself up in the West. Too much money element for my liking, but has not abused his position sexually. Not an enlightened being. T.M. is a big organisation, that is making lots and lots of money. Their so-called "Sidha program" involves contracting certain buttock muscles allowing you to "bounce". The Tibetans did that ages ago (Read Alexandra David Neel's "Magic and Mystery in Tibet"). The practice can be harmful for one's psychological well-being, probably also physically harmful.</TD></TR><TR><TD>Shri Mataji Nirmala Devi Shri Mataji </TD><TD>Sahaja yoga</TD><TD>Hindu</TD><TD>Yes</TD><TD>IZ-a Subtle?</TD><TD>Seems to me she started out as a basically decent even if self-deluded lady, got caught up in the guru power trip. Seriosly inflated ego resulting in her (& her followers) belief that she is the avatar of this age. Not an enlightened being. Possibly traces of Intermediate zone to draw in the followers, although when I heard her talk she seemed like an ordinary person. Some following in the West</TD></TR><TR><TD>Meher Baba</TD><TD>--</TD><TD>Hindu/Sufi</TD><TD>None</TD><TD><CENTER>(to add)</CENTER></TD><TD>An interesting one. Clearly sincere, despite certain ridiculous themes in his teachings. Never abused his position. I would say a genuine avatar, but his personality was not strong enough to hold the Force, hence erratic behaviour. Decent following world-wide</TD></TR><TR><TD>Swami Muktananda </TD><TD>Siddha Yoga</TD><TD>Hindu</TD><TD>Guru: Seems to have fallen in later years - sex with female devotees under guise of "Tantric Initiation". Also there was physical violence (or at least threats thereof) against those who spoke out

Organisation: Followuing his death the movement schismed; the main faction following the sister, another the brother; need to research more

</TD><TD>IZ-a or IZ-b</TD><TD>A sincere and decent teacher, although it seems in later years he fell prey to the guru power trip, started taking sexual advantage of young female followers (all in the name of "Tantric initiation"). Because of this, not an enlightened being, but nevertheless attained a high spiritual status (read his bio Play of Consciousness). Most certainly Intermediate zone Siddha Yoga still going in the West , despite it's incredibly amaturish approach to yoga and it's lack of enlightened leadership. A church for middle class people who have gone beyond exoteric religion but are not able to stand by their own light.</TD></TR><TR><TD>Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet</TD><TD>Aeon Centre of Cosmology</TD><TD>Integral Yoga</TD><TD>None towards followers</TD><TD>IZ-a</TD><TD>Inflated claims of avatarhood, and asserts that her son is a reincarnation of Sri Aurobindo. Very small following, a number of weighty books and several websites</TD></TR><TR><TD>Yoshikazu Okada</TD><TD>Mahikari</TD><TD>Japanese</TD><TD>None? (need to research)</TD><TD><CENTER>(to add)</CENTER></TD><TD>Japanese nationalistic religious movement - through initiation you are able to give healing light from your hands. The founder has been accused of association in Japenese war crimes. Small following in Japan and in the West</TD></TR><TR><TD>Osho Rajneesh</TD><TD>Orange People</TD><TD>Syncretic</TD><TD>Guru: Yes; Fled the US with over 100 federal charges, leaving behind 84 Rolls Royces.

Organisation: Under Ma Sheela things were pretty nasty; the following now is non-harmful

</TD><TD>IZ-b</TD><TD>Basically a mixture of sincerity and fake. Presented himself as the guru for the rich. There is no denying his affection for his followers, nor his love of all the money, rolls royces, and (from his Western female followers) sexual favours his office gave him. Not a true enlightened being, a good example of an Intermediate zone guru. Tremendously influential in the New Age movement, mainly because of the appeal to the infantile western attitude of being spiritual but keeping your materialistic ego and selfish attitude at the same time. His 'Zorba-Rajneesh' discoteks were all over Europe at one period; Zorba is the symbol of the ultimate worldly male chauvinist</TD></TR><TR><TD>A.C. Bhaktivedanta Prabupad</TD><TD>International Society for Krishna Consciousness ("Hare Krishnas"</TD><TD>Hindu</TD><TD>Guru: Prabupad himself was a decent guy

Organisation: Some serious abuses, including sexual abuse of children - apparently these concerns are now being addressed

</TD><TD><CENTER>(to add)</CENTER></TD><TD>A sincere and decent teacher, never bused his position in any way. His teachings however are nothing but fundamentalist Vaishvanism. Not an enlightened being. Hare Krishna sect remains a viable "New Religion" (albeit a fundamentalistic one). Respected among hippy/alternative people because of strong Vegetarian stance. After Prabhupad's death there were some nasty goings on in the leadership of his organsiation. At least one of his personally appointed successors was chaged with racketeering and conspiracy to murder. </TD></TR><TR><TD>Swami Rajeshwaranand Giriji Maharaj </TD><TD>need to research</TD><TD>Hindu</TD><TD>was arrested in September '95 as a party to the murder of his lover's husband. The 26-year old Manoj Girothra, husband of Savita who was having an affair with the 'godman', was murdered on December 3rd, 1994, some two months after his marriage.

Two professional hitmen had been hired by the 'godman'

</TD><TD><CENTER>(to add)</CENTER></TD><TD>A 'popular godman' in India, but clearly from activities lacking in spiritual consciousness. Large following in India and abroad, </TD></TR><TR></TR><TR><TD>Bala Sai Baba</TD><TD>need to research</TD><TD>Hindu</TD><TD>need to research</TD><TD><CENTER>(to add)</CENTER></TD><TD>The Palghat (Kerala) born Bala Sai Baba (the Child Sai Baba), now 35 years old. He claims to be the real Sai avatar, has set up an ashram in Kurnool district of Andhra Pradesh and resembles Sathya Sai Baba trait for trait.</TD></TR><TR></TR><TR><TD>Sathya Sai Baba</TD><TD>Sai organisation</TD><TD>Hindu</TD><TD>Guru: Serious allegations of sexual abuse

Organisation: The main organisation is either covering up the abuses or is in denial; ex-devotees who have tried to bring this to light have been defamed by slanderous devotees - one example; another example, - My experience with all this .

</TD><TD>IZ-a Subtle</TD><TD>A real controversial fellow. People have had many psychic expereinces, and some of the vibhuti materialisation on photos etc may be authentic (like the weeping virgin mary statues, probably a similar principle), but most of the so-called materialisations (of baubles for devotees) are sleight of hand. I have been to his ashram. He has been called everything from con-artist to paedophile and homosexual (and even anti-christ and devil) to avatar. Faked his birthdate to be considered an avatar. I would say gets his power from the Affective worlds. Huge following in India (many millions), where his high status has prevented legal inquiry into the allegations against him. Somewheat smaller following in the West</TD></TR><TR><TD>Swami Shyam</TD><TD>Advaita</TD><TD>Hindu</TD><TD>accused of seducing the wives of his followers (Robert Priddy knows followers, and informs me that some agree it is so. website</TD><TD><CENTER>(to add)</CENTER></TD><TD>a current advaitin guru, at Kulu in the Himalayas. Popular with Westerners (esp. Scandinavians)</TD></TR><TR><TD>Sri Swami Sivananda</TD><TD>The Divine Life Society</TD><TD>Hindu</TD><TD>None (need to research)</TD><TD><CENTER>(to add)</CENTER></TD><TD>Seems to be basically a decent guy; Small following in India and the West</TD></TR><TR><TD>Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche</TD><TD>none as such?</TD><TD>Tibetan Buddhist</TD><TD>Sex with female devotees, emotionally distant</TD><TD>IZ-a</TD><TD>The original "crazy wizdom" adept in the West, alcoholic, Well respected and widely read in the alternative movement</TD></TR><TR><TD>Ken Wilber</TD><TD>Integral Institute</TD><TD>Integral</TD><TD>Minor cultic tendencies, not abusive; my critique.</TD><TD>IZ-a</TD><TD>Extremely charismatic, very influential due to his voluminous literary output. One of the main intellectuals in the New Age/ New Paradigm movement today.</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

 

 

<CENTER>

</CENTER>

 

 

 

That is an interesting chart. They classify Prabhupada as a fundamentalist but amongst Gaudiya Vaisnavas Prabhupada seems to be fairly liberal in the sense that he didn't seem to hate Jesus or Mohammad and stuff like that.

[krsna]

 

 

Keep out of Maya's clutches

 

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada letter to Madhusudana,

Thursday, July 25, 1968

My Dear Madhusudana,

Please accept my blessings. I thank you very much for your letter of

July 17, and of July 25, 1968, and have noted the contents carefully.

Yes, by keeping engaged in Krishna Consciousness activities we can keep out of Maya's clutches, and there are so many nice engagements, as you have stated. By your sincerity and service attitude you are making good progress; by your letter it is shown.

 

Regarding your question about the picture of Lord Caitanya with six arms: This form was shown to Ramananda Roy, and Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya. This is called Sadbhuja Murti. This Sadbhuja Murti is worshipped also by the devotees of Lord Caitanya, and especially the Murti is situated in the temple of Jagannatha Puri. Sometimes when you may go to India and visit the temple of Jagannatha, you will find this Murti.

Affection for God-brothers is nice, it is a good sign. Affection for God-brothers as well as for all other living entities, even they are not God-brothers, these signs are seen in the advanced devotees. There are three kinds of devotees: The lower grade devotees, they have high regard for the Deity in the temple, but not very much regard for devotees or people in general. The second grade devotee takes compassion with innocent non-devotees. In that stage, he has got 4 kinds of vision.

 

One is that he always keeps Krishna as the most Lovable Object, second is that he makes intimate friendship with his devotee God-brothers or any other devotees, third is that he takes compassion with innocent non-devotees, and tries to convince them about the importance of Krishna Consciousness, and fourth is that he does not take any serious interest for the atheist class of men.

 

The first grade devotee, of course, sees everyone in relationship with Krishna and as such, he makes no distinction between a devotee or non-devotee. His vision is high grade, because he sees that everyone is engaged in Krishna's service directly or indirectly. This position of high-grade devotee should never be imitated. It was possible only in Lord Caitanya or Lord Nityananda, or Haridasa Thakura.

 

Thakura Haridasa was so powerful that he could convert even a harlot. But we should not try to imitate Haridasa Thakura or Lord Caitanya. Our position is in the second grade platform. We should not be satisfied remaining in the third grade platform. But we should try to elevate ourselves in the second grade platform. So far the first grade platform is concerned, it is not attained by our endeavor, but it is possible when we have full Grace of Krishna. It completely depends on the causeless Mercy of Krishna.

 

Subhadra is yogamaya. The spiritual energy is called yogamaya. And she has 16 different expansions. Out of these 16 expansions, Subhadra is one. The mahamaya of the material energy is also expansion of the energy of yogamaya; and both yogamaya and mahamaya are equally important to Krishna as much as any government department is equally important for functioning of the government.

 

The police department may be horrible for the criminals, but to the government it is a department as good as university department. Similarly, mahamaya is horrible to the conditioned soul, but to the liberated soul, there is no fear of mahamaya, because he is protected by yogamaya. It is stated in the Bhagavad-gita when Krishna said the following: "I am not visible to everyone on account of being curtained by yogamaya."

 

So when a conditioned soul surrenders unto Krishna, the yogamaya winds

up the curtain and Krishna is visible to the devotee.

 

Hoping you are all well.

 

Your ever well-wisher,

A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami

[Vigraha]

 

 

 

 

<TT></TT>70-01-23 Letter: Hamsaduta

The next question: the body of a pure devotee is all spiritual and He is not different from His body. That is also a fact. The bodies of all living entities, even though they are not pure devotees, are not actually the bodies of the spirit soul. It is always separate from the spiritual body.

 

The Vedic mantra confirm it by the sound vibration that this spirit soul is always nonattached with the material body. Therefore, we do not see the actual spiritual body of a pure devotee; but what we see, that is matter.

 

Just like the example is given of the shining moon covered by the cloud. When the cloud moves along with the peeping moonshine, it appears that the moon is moving. Anyone who has seen such movement of cloud in the sky must have this experience. So, the moving of the cloud may appear to the layman's eyes as moving of the moon, but that is not a fact.

 

Similarly, the moving of the body of a pure devotee is not the moving of the pure devotee. After all these are facts for the process of realization, but we can try to understand them as far as possible from the statement of authorized Scriptures through the version of the Spiritual Master or saintly person.

 

 

 

 

 

Wonderful!!!!!!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

[krsna]

At present we do not have the purified eyes, senses or consciousness in order to perceive the actual spiritual form of the spiritual master. All we see is flesh and bones and not the true spirit-form of guru who is in truth ( in function as one who manifests the mercy of KRSNA in this world of matter) non-different than KRSNA!

[krsna]

 

Where Is the Love?

 

 

 

BY: JAGABANDHU DASA

 

 

 

 

In his beautiful Bhagavat speech, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur speaks very strongly against fundamental non-reflective philosophical thoughtlessness and a basically unawakened superstitious conception of religion generally demonstrated by the spiritually unconscious masses. He then proceeds to call upon the need for "Luthers (reformers), instead of (shallow) critics" for the proper individual re-interpretation of original teachings about Divine Love, in order to correct the apparently numerously repeated collective evils of religious hypocrisy manifest in a social setting, time and again.

• 
  
  "The thoughtless must be satisfied with superstition till he wakes and opens his eyes to the God of Love. The reformers, out of their universal love and anxiety for good endeavor by some means or other to make the thoughtless drink the cup of salvation, but the latter drink it with wine and fall into the ground under the influence of intoxication for the imagination has also the power of making a thing what it never was. Thus it is that the evils of nunneries and the corruptions of the
  akhras
  proceeded. No, we are not to scandalize the Savior of Jerusalem or the Savior of Nadia for these subsequent evils. Luthers, instead of critics, are what we want for the correction of those evils by the true interpretation of the original precepts."
  
  

 

 

 

Srila Saraswati Thakur also severely expresses himself about the inevitable hypocritical and exploitative tendencies generally exhibited by conditioned souls who vainly seek to co-opt organized religion for their own distorted, selfish personal agendas in order to personally profit. Yet we find him clarifying that:

• 
  
  
  
  "The world stands in no need of any reformer. The world has a very competent person for guiding its minutest happenings. The person who determines that there is scope for reform of the world, himself stands in need of reform. The world goes on in its own perfect way. No person can deflect it even the breadth of a hair from the course chalked out for it by Providence. When we perceive any change being actually effected in the course of events of this world by the agency of any particular individual, we must know very well that the agent possesses no real power at any stage. The agent finds himself driven forward by a force belonging to a different category from himself. The course of the world does not require to be changed by the agency of any person. What
  is
  necessary is to change
  our
  outlook on this world. This was done for the contemporary generation by the mercy of Sri Chaitanya. It can only be known to recipients of His mercy. The scriptures declare that it is only necessary to listen with an open mind to the name of Krishna from the lips of a bona fide devotee. As soon as Krishna enters the listening ear, He clears up the vision of the listener so that he no longer has any ambition of ever acting the part of a reformer of any other person, because he finds that nobody is left without the very highest guidance. It is therefore his own reform, by the grace of God, Whose Supreme Necessity and Nature he is increasingly able to realize, by the Eternally Continuing Mercy of the Supreme Lord."
  
  
  
  
  (From Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur in the
  Harmonist
  , May 1932, issue number 11. Article originally titled, “Sree Chaitanya in South India”. Pages 325-326.)
  
  

 

 

 

On December 23rd, 1936, in the final days before his departure, we also find Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur boldly declaring (as so mercifully translated into English by Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada) that,

"...we are not desirous to become heroes of work or reformers of religion."

 

 

 

No doubt multifarious abuses and considerable deceits reputedly perpetrated in the Name of God and Gurudev (which are supposedly substantiated by subjectively incorrect misinterpretation of genuine religious teachings) must not be tolerated as proper Divine Representation, and therefore must be considered of little real help to anyone. If there's stool on the path, I may wish to avoid it and also warn other pilgrims. If possible, such excrement might be removed from soiling, obstructing or preventing any real attempts at genuine progress by individual pilgrims hopefully maturely working cooperatively in concerted action for everyone's real benefit. But should such waste management concerns become the primary focus and emphasis of the Sangam, above and beyond individual awakenment of genuine inner realization and true personal understanding of Divine Love and Unconditional Mercy (Prasada)? If so, where is the Love, what to speak of It's greatly hoped for and urgently needed immediate massive proliferation to one and all, in every town and village?

 

Is "religious" hypocrisy the real problem we actually face, or is insincerity itself the actual true root of deceptive "evils", whether self-deception or otherwise? You are all eternal souls yourselves, completely possessed of unique individual consciousness and consequential intrinsic conscience regardless of current apparent ecclesiastical fraternizing. What do you think? What do the Acaryas Themselves think about the ongoing relentlessly attemptive intrusion of the basic foibles of ordinary human nature continually attempting to manifest themselves in an allegedly devotional social environment? And are we really listening to Them in our ostensible attempt to rectify true devotional ideology, representation and succession for everyone's real benefit?

 

 

[Sarva gattah]

 

"The thoughtless must be satisfied with superstition till he wakes and opens his eyes to the God of Love.

 

 

The reformers, out of their universal love and anxiety for good endeavor by some means or other to make the thoughtless drink the cup of salvation, but the latter drink it with wine and fall into the ground under the influence of intoxication for the imagination has also the power of making a thing what it never was.

 

 

Thus it is that the evils of nunneries and the corruptions of the

akhras

proceeded. No, we are not to scandalize the Savior of Jerusalem or the Savior of Nadia for these subsequent evils. Luthers, instead of critics, are what we want for the correction of those evils by the true interpretation of the original precepts."

 

 

Srila Saraswati Thakur also severely expresses himself about the inevitable hypocritical and exploitative tendencies generally exhibited by conditioned souls who vainly seek to co-opt organized religion for their own distorted, selfish personal agendas in order to personally profit.

Yet we find him clarifying that:

 

 

"The world stands in no need of any reformer. The world has a very competent person for guiding its minutest happenings.

 

 

The person who determines that there is scope for reform of the world, himself stands in need of reform. The world goes on in its own perfect way.

 

 

No person can deflect it even the breadth of a hair from the course chalked out for it by Providence.

 

 

When we perceive any change being actually effected in the course of events of this world by the agency of any particular individual, we must know very well that the agent possesses no real power at any stage.

 

 

The agent finds himself driven forward by a force belonging to a different category from himself. The course of the world does not require to be changed by the agency of any person.

 

 

What

is

necessary is to change

our

outlook on this world.

 

 

This was done for the contemporary generation by the mercy of Sri Chaitanya. It can only be known to recipients of His mercy.

 

 

The scriptures declare that it is only necessary to listen with an open mind to the name of Krishna from the lips of a bona fide devotee.

 

 

As soon as Krishna enters the listening ear, He clears up the vision of the listener so that he no longer has any ambition of ever acting the part of a reformer of any other person, because he finds that nobody is left without the very highest guidance.

 

 

It is therefore his own reform, by the grace of God, Whose Supreme Necessity and Nature he is increasingly able to realize, by the Eternally Continuing Mercy of the Supreme Lord."

 

 

(

From Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur in the Harmonist, May 1932, issue number 11. Article originally titled, “Sree Chaitanya in South India”. Pages 325-326.)[

/quote]

 

 

No matter how many times I read this, it is always refreshing

 

 

[krsna]

Words of the acaryas, ever-liberated souls have wonderful effect on our conciousness!

 

 

"No matter how many times I read this, it is always refreshing!"

[krsna]

 

 

One Sincere Soul

 

 

 

 

11 November, 1967

 

My Dear Brahmananda,

 

I have read your statements regarding opening centers. I am not in agreement with Mr. Altman that we are expanding very thinly.

 

In my opinion, a single sincere soul can maintain a center. You know I started the center at 26 2nd Ave. alone. I took the risk of 200.00 dollars per month for the rent. At that time there were no assistants.

 

Mukunda was at that time a friend but there was no responsibility for him for maintaining the center. Gradually Kirtanananda and Hayagriva joined but they did not take any responsibility. Still I was maintaining the establishment simply depending on Krishna and then Krishna sent me everything—men and money.

 

Similarly, if a sincere soul goes out and opens a center in any part of the world Krishna will help him in all respects. Without being empowered by Krishna, nobody can preach Krishna Consciousness. It is not academic qualification or financial strength which helps in these matters, but it is sincerity of purpose which helps us always.

 

In this way you will follow my example as I did in the beginning at 26 2nd Ave. That is preaching, cooking, writing, talking, chanting everything one man’s show. I never thought about the audience. I was prepared to chant if there were no man to hear me.

 

The principle of chanting is to glorify the Lord and not to attract a crowd. If Krishna hears nicely then he will ask some sincere devotee to gather in such place. Therefore, be advised that thousands of centers may be started if we find out a sincere soul for each and every center. We do not require more men to start. If there is one sincere soul that is sufficient to start a new center.

 

Your ever well-wisher

 

A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami

[krsna]

 

 

Guru makes you humble in the present

 

 

 

 

"I am very pleased that you are doing nicely, but don't be proud. Always remain humble, meek, that

'I am nothing. I cannot...' That will be nice.

 

And if you think, 'Now I have become liberated. I can chant and dance.' No, don't think like that.

 

Just like even Caitanya-caritamrta author, he says, purisera kita haite muni se laghistha: [Cc. Adi 5.205]

 

"I am lower than the worm in the stool."

 

Jagai madhai haite muni se papistha:

 

'I am more sinner than Jagai-Madhai.'

 

In this way... That is not artificial. A Vaisnava must think like that, that 'I am rotten. I have no value.' Don't be proud. Then the things will go on nicely.

 

And as soon as you become proud, then maya --

 

'Yes, you are God. Come on. I will kick you on your face. Come on.'

 

These rascals becomes God, and the maya kicks on the face, and they think that they have become God. Don't become like that. Always remain humble servant and you will be happy."

 

 

 

(Srila Prabhupada lecture, Detroit, August 3, 1975)

 

[suchandra]

Wonder what they did in New York when their spiritual master, Rabbi Jacob Joseph [RJJ], was rejected.

Ok it's a different belief but it would be a comparative study of religion to find out what they did when a physically present spiritual master is not accepted and they even say, what happened in New York was quite tragic.....

 

Failed Experiment: New York's Only Chief Rabbi

posted 28 May 2008

"Stevedores at the port of Hoboken were amazed to see some ten thousand bearded Orthodox Jews waiting to greet Rabbi Joseph upon his arrival. Dramin Jones of Congregation Bais HaMidrash HaGadol headed the delegation that had come to greet Rav Joseph. He welcomed him with an offering of bread and salt and then recited the traditional benediction upon seeing a great scholar: "Blessed art Thou, O Lord our God, King of the universe, Who hast imparted of Thy wisdom to those who revere Thee," and added, "Blessed art Thou, O Lord our God, King of the universe, Who hast given us life and sustained us and privileged us to reach this day.""

 

full article

[krsna]

Our movement is an incarnation of KRSNA

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Excerpt from a lecture by

 

HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

 

 

 

KRSNA Will Save You From Envious Demons And Enemies

 

 

 

So in this age, Kali-yuga especially, demoniac, everything, demons, godless. Demon means godless. Indrari. Demons means Indra, or indrasya ari. Ari means enemy. Indra is demigod. And his enemy, that is demon. Indrari. Just like when you go to preach Krishna consciousness, you have got so many enemies. They do not act directly, but they are very much envious: “What these nonsense are chanting Hare Krishna?” You see? They want to disturb.

 

Just like we have to close this door because the demons will disturb. You see? So demons means enemy of the demigods, enemy of the devotees. Those who are God conscious, those who are abiding by the orders of God, they’re demigods. Demigods means they’re also God, but subordinate to God. They don’t say, “I am God.” No, a Vaisnava will never say so. He knows that “I am eternal servant of God.” Therefore demigod. Otherwise, their qualification is godly.

 

 

So indrari-vyakulam… Indra. Indra is demigod. He’s the king of the demigods. So indrari-vyakulam. When people become very much disturbed by this demonic government and demons… So dharmasya glanir. Dharmasya glanir means discrepancies in the matter of executing religious principles.

 

Just like in Russia, you cannot chant Hare Krishna mantra. What to speak of chanting in the street, you cannot chant even in private. That is their law. So that law is coming gradually everywhere, godless.

 

In China, I’ve heard, anyone teaching about God or next life, he’ll be shot. Is it not? So your country is still very nice because you are not shooting Krishna conscious people, but there is possibility. Demons are increasing. Demons are increasing. But don’t be afraid. Krishna is there. Just like Krishna’s mother and father were so much harassed by Kamsa. But at the end, Kamsa was killed by Krishna.

 

So we may be harassed for the time being, but Krishna will save. This is Saranagati. Avasya rakhibe krsna visvasa palana. The Saranagati means, surrender means that “Krishna will save me. I’ll not do anything against the devotional service. Even there is torture…”

 

Just like Prahlada Maharaja. He was tortured by his father. Krishna’s mother was tortured by her brother. Not outsider. So the demons are so rascal, they don’t care for son, sister, mother. No. “As soon as it is against my personal sense gratification, I must finish this.” But be sure that Krishna will save.

 

We have got so many instances. As Prahlada Maharaja was saved by Narasimhadeva from the hands of his father, Hiranyakasipu; Devaki was saved, Vasudeva was saved from the hands of Kamsa; so you will be also saved. Because there is promise in the Bhagavad-gita: kaunteya pratijanihi na me bhaktah pranasyati [bg. 9.31]. Krishna says,

 

“Make it a declaration throughout the whole world that anyone who is My devotee, he’ll never be annihilated. He’ll be protected. I’ll give him protection.”

 

Samo ‘ham sarva-bhutesu. Samo ‘ham sarva-bhutesu na me dvesyo ’sti na priyah. Krishna says in the Bhagavad-gita that “I am equal to everyone. Nobody is My enemy, nobody is My friend.” Ye tu bhajanti mam prityä. “But those who are devotees, engaged twenty-four hours, I give them special protection. I give them special protection.”

 

So the demons will be there, and they will always give trouble to the demigods, or the devotees, but you don’t stop your function, devotional service. Don’t be afraid of the demons. Indrari-vyakulam lokam mrdayanti. This mrdayanti means “giving protection”.

 

 

 

Take Shelter Of KRSNA's Name Incarnation

 

 

So this sankirtana movement, Hare Krishna movement, is also incarnation of Krishna. Nama-rupe avatara. Krishna can become incarnation in sound form also. Not even a physical form. Physical form also there; everything is there. But especially this age, Krishna is incarnated in His name. The name of Krishna is not different from Krishna. So nama-rupe krishna-avatara.

 

So Krishna is already there. The whole world is now demonic, anti government, anti-God, anti-matter. So the incarnation has already come. Those who will take shelter of this incarnation of Krishna’s name, they will be never annihilated. Take it for granted. Yes. Krishna’s name and Krishna, no difference. That is omnipotency.

 

Omnipotency means everything is Krishna’s energy. So the same potency in the energy and the energetic. This is omnipotency. God is omnipotent; He can give you protection when you take shelter of His name. Because His name is nondifferent from Him. Abhinnatvan nama-naminoh. Näma-krishna. Nama cintamanih krsnah, purnah suddho nitya-mukto ‘bhinnatvan nama-naminoh.

 

Don’t think this Krishna’s name is less efficient than Krishna. No. Purna. As Krishna is perfect, similarly, this name is also perfect. Purna suddhau. As Krishna is pure, without any material contamination, apapa-viddham, no, nothing sin, sinful can affect him…

 

You have read it in the Isopanisad. Just like sunshine. Infection cannot infect sunshine. Some disease can infect you, me, because we are less potential. But it cannot infect the sum. Rather, the sunshine will sterilize the infection. So anything infectious, anything sinful, cannot infect Krishna. Rather sinful activities in touch with Krishna will become purified. This is the process.

 

 

 

Krishna gives all protection to the devotee

 

 

There are many instances. Just like Prahlada Maharaja, you can see. Prahlada Maharaja is standing, and his father is being killed before him. This is sinful. Can you tolerate? Suppose if somebody comes to kill me, and you will see and laugh? You’ll do, will you do that? Why? That is sinful. So here Prahlada Maharaja is seeing. Prahlada Maharaja is not protesting, “Why you are killing my father?” No. He’s seeing.

 

So why Prahlada Maharaja is worshiped? Why he has become a mahajana, authority? You can say, “Oh, he’s a most sinful. He has seen in his presence, his father is being killed, and he did not protest.” You can say so. But because it is in connection with Krishna, Prahlada Maharaja is the most exalted devotee. He’s not sinful.

 

… So Krishna is so powerful that even in the ordinary ways it looks sinful, but if it is actually done for Krishna’s sake… The same thing, Arjuna. He was thinking that “Killing of my family members, it is sinful.” He argued with Krishna. Therefore this Bhagavad-gita is there. He was simply arguing that “I’ll not fight. I’ll not kill my grandfather, my teacher, my brother, my nephews, my brother-in-laws. No, no, I am not going to… It is sinful.” But at the end he did it, because he understood, “Oh, it is for Krishna. All right. I shall take all the risk. That’s all right.”

 

So for Krishna, the devotee takes all the risk of life, similarly, Krishna gives all the protection to the devotee. Don’t be afraid.

[krsna]

 

 

The Business of Guru

 

 

Deliver the same knowledge as Krishna gives

 

 

 

"Almost everyone. Ninety-nine point nine percent people, they want to become happy within this material world. Therefore they are poor, very, very poor. And the mahatmas, they give the knowledge that 'This is not life. This is a temporary platform.' Asasvatam, duhkhalayam asasvatam [bg. 8.15]. This is confidential knowledge. You are trying to be happy...

 

Suppose Brahma. He lives for many millions of years. Still, it is duhkhalayam asasvatam. That life is also temporary. What is millions of years' duration of life in comparison to the eternal life? So beginning from Brahma down to the small ant, whoever is within this material world, it is to be understood their understanding is very poor.

 

And the mahatma, being kind upon these poor souls, they deliver the same knowledge as Krishna gives. Sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam.. [bg. 18.66]. This is guru's business.

 

Do not manufacture anything. There is no question of... There is no need of manufacturing anything. Simply you speak to the suffering humanity the same thing which Krishna says. Saksad bhagavata uditam. This is the business of guru."

 

 

 

(Srila Prabhupada lecture, Vrndavana, August 11, 1974)

 

[krsna]

 

 

 

"He lives forever by his instructions and his followers live with him."