Is A Physically Present Spiritual Master Required?

[Beggar]

 

mahaksa dasa says

 

 

 

Please tell us Mahaksa dasa, what then is the fate of the poor souls who Srila Prabhupada inititated through representatives for years without ever meeting them or even knowing their names?

 

And how does this speak to Srila Prabhupada's integrity as a Vaisnava to leave such a dangling participle which eventually would mean spiritual disaster.

 

Please enlighten us if you can.

What are you proposing, that you just sit in your room with your Bhagavatamas and bead bag and never assoiciate with devotees? Or are you proposing that we all associate with other Rtviks?

[Bhakta Devarsi]

 

What are you proposing, that you just sit in your room with your Bhagavatamas and bead bag and never assoiciate with devotees? Or are you proposing that we all associate with other Rtviks?

 

I beg you, re-read what I said and see it in the context I intended, which was to show that indeed there were many disciples made by Srila Prabhupada with no so called reciprocal relationship as defined by Mahaksa dasa, and the other embodied guru wallahs, as in Srila Prabhupada was not there in his Vapu chastising them everyday for being such meatheads, and chuckling fondly with them about the sweeter things, they NEVER MET.

 

So, my question is crystal clear, wipe the fog from your eyes. For Mahak to then make a authoritative statement such as this...

 

Srila Prabhupadas version is that :"The guru should also study the person who wants to become a disciple to see if he is fit". Any system that denies the guru having this right to be part of the reciprocal relationship really has nothing to do with prabhupada, no matter how they pledge their allegiance to him. When Srila Prabhupada was touring Self Realization Foundation Headquarters in Pacific Palisades Ca, ca 1968, he stated that the SRF idea of initiating disciples for Paramahamsa Yogananda years after his passing from this realm was a bogus idea. Srimad Bhagavatam has many stories of how a disciple approaches guru, asks pertenant questions, receives perfect answers. The best way to see if a physically present guru is re3quired, ask your guru.

 

He is correct that the Guru has the right to that form of reciprocal relationship, and that cannot be denied, and any group of systematists who tell you different are full of bunk, however.

 

It is not just the Guru's right, but his call on whether it is necessary, and how much or how little vapu association is necessary, wouldn't ya say.

 

So we get another "Prabhupada story with the Yogi disciples going to visit Yogananda's Blissful hermatige story" from Mahak the guy who disdains the "Prabhupada said crowd", and then his own poetic speculative spew to convince us on... the strength of his own mind.

 

Bravo.

 

Back to Reality. If you are going to say, "Srila Prabhupada's version is..." you are in tricky territory when his disciples are nearby, better act as if it were so.

 

No mountain is high enough, no valley so low. For the lonely person, there is no where left to go but home to your Prabhupada's lotus feet.

 

Hare Krsna

 

ys

 

BM

[Guest guest]

Someone asked :

 

"Please tell us Mahaksa dasa, what then is the fate of the poor souls who Srila Prabhupada inititated through representatives for years without ever meeting them or even knowing their names?

 

And how does this speak to Srila Prabhupada's integrity as a Vaisnava to leave such a dangling participle which eventually would mean spiritual disaster.

 

Please enlighten us if you can."

 

mahak: Well, if you bother to read the citation on guru-tattwa I posted from SSR, and maybe even go and read the full chapter as to avoid the cut and paste method of hearing and chanting shastra. Carefully read, the citiation I posted speaks about the whole idea of guru tattwa is RELATIONSHIP BUILDING. Your scenario dont wash, as I am probably one of the most remote disciples of Srila Prabhupadas. I am not a poor soul, and never is there a time when Guru does not even know who his disciples are. I imagine there are many who never bothered to build the relationship, and they maY THINK THAT IT IS ALL JUST A PAPER TRAIL WITH NO REAL MEANING, BUT DONT LAY THAT OUT ON ME.

 

The problem with the system-vadis of both the GBC and the IRM ilk is that some system is their guru, and relationship building is never even considered. This is why this arrogant question is put here. There is no enlightenment to those who think that the initiation they received from Srila Prabhupada has no one on the other side of the relationship. This is why those prefer to have a guru be a foundation, a system, etc, because then they really dont have to have a person they have to relaTE TO.

 

tHE Whole idea of having a guru is for the student to learn how to behave in the presence of the Lord (Sounds like a good title for a song). So, if there is no one there for the student to practice on, to serve, even to worship (guru puja), who is there to receive the sadhana bhakti process from.

 

Okay, ya got that? I was remotely initiated, Sudama Swami recommended me, Subal Swami performed the fire sacrifice, but Srila Prabhupada received me and I accepted him to the best of my ability, which is still being worked on. But Srila Prabhupada personally knows me, has made a determination that I should receive first initiation. He is also extremely pleased that I refused to receive second initiation from him because at the time, I was a bit wavering on the ganja issue and I informed Sudama that I was not ready to commit. Srila Prabhupada knew me well enough to let Sudama know that honesty in terms of how to assess ones maturity and willingness to accept the terms of the relationship building process of initiation, such honesty is wished for all his disciples, he expressed pleasure that one has the honesty to say, "I cannot agree to your terms as of yet, Srila Prabhupada."

 

Now if a disciple is so dominated by others in the materialistic foundational hierarchy that he is full of fear to inquire from one who recommended him for initiation as to how it was received by Srila Prabhupada, maybe initiation never really took place. How many disciples of Srila Prabhupada, on the day following harinama fire sacrifice, actually went door to door to collect funds to be sent personally to Srila Prabhupada, which is something that is required from all disciples. I lived on a remote island without transportation, but I still collected and sent $8.75 by hitchhiking and asking those who gave me a ride, telling exactly what the funds were needed for.

 

You speak of integrity, laying this false notion on Srila Prabhupada, yet because the word "relationship" doesnt compute to the "system-vadis", Srila Prabhupada is given all blame along with heaps of imagined karma laid on him without his permission by folks he has not authorized to act even on his behalf. No, I question the integrity of the disciple, who shares equally the responsibility of relationship building. Dangling disciples are there becauise their own refusal to relate to Srila Prabhupada, not the other way around.

 

Haribol, ys in full understanding of VCR, mahaksadasa

[Bhakta Devarsi]

 

Someone asked :

 

"Please tell us Mahaksa dasa, what then is the fate of the poor souls who Srila Prabhupada inititated through representatives for years without ever meeting them or even knowing their names?

 

And how does this speak to Srila Prabhupada's integrity as a Vaisnava to leave such a dangling participle which eventually would mean spiritual disaster.

 

Please enlighten us if you can."

 

mahak: Well, if you bother to read the citation on guru-tattwa I posted from SSR, and maybe even go and read the full chapter as to avoid the cut and paste method of hearing and chanting shastra. Carefully read, the citiation I posted speaks about the whole idea of guru tattwa is RELATIONSHIP BUILDING. Your scenario dont wash, as I am probably one of the most remote disciples of Srila Prabhupadas. I am not a poor soul, and never is there a time when Guru does not even know who his disciples are. I imagine there are many who never bothered to build the relationship, and they maY THINK THAT IT IS ALL JUST A PAPER TRAIL WITH NO REAL MEANING, BUT DONT LAY THAT OUT ON ME.

 

The problem with the system-vadis of both the GBC and the IRM ilk is that some system is their guru, and relationship building is never even considered. This is why this arrogant question is put here. There is no enlightenment to those who think that the initiation they received from Srila Prabhupada has no one on the other side of the relationship. This is why those prefer to have a guru be a foundation, a system, etc, because then they really dont have to have a person they have to relaTE TO.

 

tHE Whole idea of having a guru is for the student to learn how to behave in the presence of the Lord (Sounds like a good title for a song). So, if there is no one there for the student to practice on, to serve, even to worship (guru puja), who is there to receive the sadhana bhakti process from.

 

Okay, ya got that? I was remotely initiated, Sudama Swami recommended me, Subal Swami performed the fire sacrifice, but Srila Prabhupada received me and I accepted him to the best of my ability, which is still being worked on. But Srila Prabhupada personally knows me, has made a determination that I should receive first initiation. He is also extremely pleased that I refused to receive second initiation from him because at the time, I was a bit wavering on the ganja issue and I informed Sudama that I was not ready to commit. Srila Prabhupada knew me well enough to let Sudama know that honesty in terms of how to assess ones maturity and willingness to accept the terms of the relationship building process of initiation, such honesty is wished for all his disciples, he expressed pleasure that one has the honesty to say, "I cannot agree to your terms as of yet, Srila Prabhupada."

 

Now if a disciple is so dominated by others in the materialistic foundational hierarchy that he is full of fear to inquire from one who recommended him for initiation as to how it was received by Srila Prabhupada, maybe initiation never really took place. How many disciples of Srila Prabhupada, on the day following harinama fire sacrifice, actually went door to door to collect funds to be sent personally to Srila Prabhupada, which is something that is required from all disciples. I lived on a remote island without transportation, but I still collected and sent $8.75 by hitchhiking and asking those who gave me a ride, telling exactly what the funds were needed for.

 

You speak of integrity, laying this false notion on Srila Prabhupada, yet because the word "relationship" doesnt compute to the "system-vadis", Srila Prabhupada is given all blame along with heaps of imagined karma laid on him without his permission by folks he has not authorized to act even on his behalf. No, I question the integrity of the disciple, who shares equally the responsibility of relationship building. Dangling disciples are there becauise their own refusal to relate to Srila Prabhupada, not the other way around.

 

Haribol, ys in full understanding of VCR, mahaksadasa

Hari bol Mahak, that was very nice to read and nice to know you could get that out so poetically, which is your penchant in prose and it means you are speaking from the heart, so here goes.

 

I am not that guy. At least most of me is not. You have been blowing up one straw man after another, and my fault is I set them there for you by my incomplete ability to do my professed profession, but I am not so dull, so we are where we are. I am certain I have been tilting at your windmills as well.

 

I had not the displeasure of some of the association you had to wade through in the early days, so you are the one who needs to shrug off whatever poisonous traces they left behind, tentacles still thread like needles in your neurons here and there linked to the past by the etheric subplanes. I know you know you are bigger than that, so you blow it out quick, on to better things.

 

I get the part of the relationship. And the personal reciprocation. I played devil's advocate way back when on the PL forum with your strict standards for a ritvik priest, but mostly agreed. The most confidential point is this. Srila Prabhupada wanted guys like us to become so personally involved and caring about each other like family that we would automatically give relevant and loving Siksa to those who were Junior in advancement, not necessarily congruent with age or rank, but perhaps generally.

 

The Ritvik can only do his job if the rest of the senior men in the society are wise and loving Siksa Guru's, unyielding from Srila Prabhupada's yoke and thus able to by qualification authoritatively reciprocate with new disciples in Iskcon.

 

As Jesus said, "Ye will be known for even greater things than I"

 

Srila Prabhupada has high expectations, but his orders were clear about how to proceed. We just need to have faith that he saw what we did not, recognize who is not completely Its-gone, and bring it together.

 

Happy Gaura Purnima.

 

ys

 

B.Mark

[stonehearted]

 

I had not the displeasure of some of the association you had to wade through in the early days, so you are the one who needs to shrug off whatever poisonous traces they left behind, tentacles still thread like needles in your neurons here and there linked to the past by the etheric subplanes.

 

Mark, I think I have an idea to whom you refer here, but could you clarify this for me? If you mean devotees such as Goursundar, Siddhasvarupananda, Sudama, and Subal, I also had their association (the pleasure of their association), even before Mahaksa, and I can tell you that, imperfect as they were, and as far as they appear from one person or another's idea of being in ISKCON (however you construe that), in those days they were Srila Prabhupada's leaders, and he loves them dearly. This I have seen (as CB might say) with my own eyes, heard with my own ears. They were his men, and he exhorted devotees to cooperate with them then.

 

Just my nickel's worth today.

[Bhakta Devarsi]

 

Mark, I think I have an idea to whom you refer here, but could you clarify this for me? If you mean devotees such as Goursundar, Siddhasvarupananda, Sudama, and Subal, I also had their association (the pleasure of their association), even before Mahaksa, and I can tell you that, imperfect as they were, and as far as they appear from one person or another's idea of being in ISKCON (however you construe that), in those days they were Srila Prabhupada's leaders, and he loves them dearly. This I have seen (as CB might say) with my own eyes, heard with my own ears. They were his men, and he exhorted devotees to cooperate with them then.

 

Just my nickel's worth today.

Not a one of them came to my mind Prabhu, I was referring to the subhuman boors who plagued and still plague the movement, the usual suspects no one else.

 

I met a nice devotee named Subal once. He was quite full of some bhava and was kind and measured and very intelligent.

 

Hare Krsna

[stonehearted]

Okay--thanks for answering. As for subhuman boors, well at least I'm pretty much out of the way.

[mahak]

Haribol, Devarsi, CB-r, Babhru (thanks for the e-mail enlightening exchange, brah), and other participants.

 

I have no baggage, I actually place devotees I knew back then as transcendental to time and space. Like brother sudama swami. He is always swami, as my non-devotee (per se) friends from the isle of big used to call him "prabhupadas little brother). There is no judging how he acted later on, I see him in front of Subhadras cart with bahudaka das and Visnu jnana, making srila Prabhupada exceedingly happy and proud.

 

There are a few things that came up here and elsewhere concerning varnasrama dharma. I had stated that VAD is a creation of Lord Brahma. Actually, VAD is a creation of Brghu Muni, the great sage sone of Lord Brahma. From the purport of SB 1-19-10, Srila Prabhupada tells us of the creation of VAD:

 

"(Brghu Muni, son of Lord Brahma) was the scientific propounder of the four divisions and orders of human society, known as the varna-asrama institution."

 

mahaksadasa: My point in mentioning this is that VAD is a tool of the mahat-tattwa, the one quarter creation of the material world. There seems to be a bit of confusion concerning the actual spiritual significance, and my points are not given here to create a source of arguement, but rather just another way to look at things. Similarly, there is a topical discussion of madurya rasa and who resides in goloka Vrndavan. Some insist this is a gopis only setting, and I dont accept this on the strength of Srila Prabhupadas teachings on the subject. King Pariksit, not a gopi, not really even a friend, more than likely a subserviant son of Krsna when discussing his rasa, he is destined to return to Goloka Vrndavan, because his Lord is Lord Sri Krsna.

 

This is nicely described in what I consider perfect and complete teachings by Prabhupada on the subjecgt of Guru tattwa. I highly recommend that the reader who is concerned about the workings of guru tattwa delve into the masterpiece, in context, to find out who to hear from. There is no "rtvik system" conjecture that trumps Srila Prabhupadas purports to Srimad Bhagavatam, which describes "living guru", "reciprocal exchange", establishment of guru-disciple relationships, etc. Please read SB 1-19-23 to 1-19-40.

 

The verse seen at SB 1-19-33 seems to indicate the need to accept guidance on a personal, physical level. This verse does not negate Srila Prabhupadas description in letters to disciples that vani is more important than vapu, but it does certainly derail the position of many rtvik proponants that vapu is not necessary, which is a mental concoction and completely off the wall and without the support of guru-shastra-sadhu criteria.

 

TRANSLATION

Simply by our remembering you, our houses become instantly sanctified. And what to speak of seeing you, touching you, washing your holy feet and offering you a seat in our home?

 

PURPORT

The importance of holy places of pilgrimage is due to the presence of great sages and saints. It is said that sinful persons go to the holy places and leave their sins there to accumulate. But the presence of the great saints disinfects the accumulated sins, and thus the holy places continue to remain sanctified by the grace of the devotees and saints present there. If such saints appear in the homes of worldly people, certainly the accumulated sins of such worldly enjoyers become neutralized. Therefore, the holy saints actually have no self-interest with the householders. The only aim of such saints is to sanctify the houses of the householders, and the householders therefore should feel grateful when such saints and sages appear at their doors. A householder who dishonors such holy orders is a great offender. It is enjoined, therefore, that a householder who does not bow down before a saint at once must undergo fasting for the day in order to neutralize the great offense.

 

mahaksadasa: Personally, Im not battling anyone, Im not trying to create my own school or canvass for disciples. I use this forum for istagosthi, and stimulation of discussion, presenting different viewpoints that are not for arguing, rasther to get my friends to look deeper into this science.

 

I got to jump off line, ill continue in the next post.

 

ys, mahaksadasa

[mahak]

Lets speak of passion. Ive been internetting for ten years, and there may be some who think Im angry of that I reject them because they see things differently. There is no anger, or even trouble, just different ways of looking at things. Ill again cite from the chapter that authoritively describes in full the glories of guru tattwa to further this thought. I will put in bold the point to be considered concerning this post.

 

SB 1-19-25

TRANSLATION

At that moment there appeared the powerful son of Vyasadeva, who traveled over the earth disinterested and satisfied with himself. He did not manifest any symptoms of belonging to any social order or status of life. He was surrounded with women and children, and he dressed as if others had neglected him.

 

PURPORT

The word bhagavan is sometimes used in relation with some of the great devotees of the Lord, like Sukadeva Gosvami. Such liberated souls are disinterested in the affairs of this material world because they are self-satisfied by the great achievements of devotional service. As explained before, Sukadeva Gosvami never accepted any formal spiritual master, nor did he undergo any formal reformatory performances. His father, Vyasadeva, was his natural spiritual master because Sukadeva Gosvami heard Srimad-Bhagavatam from him. After this, he became completely self-satisfied. Thus he was not dependent on any formal process. The formal processes are necessary for those who are expected to reach the stage of complete liberation, but Sri Sukadeva Gosvami was already in that status by the grace of his father. As a young boy he was expected to be properly dressed, but he went about naked and was uninterested in social customs. He was neglected by the general populace, and inquisitive boys and women surrounded him as if he were a madman. He thus appears on the scene while traveling on the earth of his own accord. It appears that upon the inquiry of MaharajaParikshit, the great sages were not unanimous in their decision as to what was to be done. For spiritual salvation there were many prescriptions according to the different modes of different persons. But the ultimate aim of life is to attain the highest perfectional stage of devotional service to the Lord. As doctors differ, so also sages differ in their different prescriptions. While such things were going on, the great and powerful son of Vyasadeva appeared on the scene.

 

mahaksadasa: So, lets consider some points on the internet over the last ten years or so, in light of this important discussion of DIVERSITY. Who is on this field while Pariksit awaits the snake-bird Taka?

 

Who is the sampradaya acarya? Sri Narada Muni and Lord Vyasadeva are present. Lord Parasurama, the Supreme Person, is present, the sage devala is there, Brghu Muni is there, the guru of Vidurs, Sri Maitreya Muni, is there. So why Pariksit is hooked up with the young avadhuta who suddenly appears? Sukadeva does NOT defer to Narada, not Vyasadeva, in fact, the opposite occurs, Narada, Vyasadeva, Brghu, Devala, Parasara, Lord Parusarama, they all agree that Sukadeva is the guru of King Pariksit.

 

Why is this? The answer is in the verses I recommended, SB 1:19:23-40. In these purports, one will read how guru tattwa works, that Pariksit did not go on a guru hunt, and also had many he knew were greatly qualified as Vaisnava Gurus. King Pariksit had direct association with many mahabhagavatas, of the twelve authorities on devotional service, many were sitting right next to him (Narada, Vyasa, et al). Yet why Sukadeva? BECAUSE SUKADEVA WAS INSPIRED TO APPEAR BEFORE THE KING. Sukadeva is activated by Krsna to appear before Pariksit, because Pariksit was very sincere, having death aqt his doorstep.

 

Anyway, this post is for the consideration of those who read, given in friendship to all, without any wierdness on my part. Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

[krsna]

BECAUSE SUKADEVA WAS INSPIRED TO APPEAR BEFORE THE KING.

 

That's it! Divine Inspiration is required for there be a perfect and authorized match between the GURU and eternal DISCIPLE.

 

I here do solemnly swear under oath of the sampradaya that the GIRU appears according to KRSNA's Divine will to deliver each and every jiva soul from the material world. And this guru principle is forever present, alive and eternal.

[Bhakta Devarsi]

From what I recall, noone around me was qualified to give me divya-jnana, and I was sincerely seeking because I had some realization of death and the temporary nature of material pleasure.

 

It is my good fortune that Srila Prabhupada was inspired to appear before me and bless me with his total package.

 

He still seems quite inspired, because he uses me to direct other people to him quite often.

 

Circumstances are a whole lot different these days, but the principle is still the same, the external arrangement of how the most qualified and most inspired Acharya in town goes about appearing to people.

 

Nice topic.

 

Hare Krsna

[mahak]

The entire first canto of Srimad Bhagavatam is specifically designed to fully take all of Srila Prabhupadas disciples to goloka vrndavan. This is the matchless gift he gives, signed, sealed, and delivered directly from Lord Nityananda Prabhu thru his empowered external manifestation. There is nothing missing in just these three volumes.

 

During the course of discussion, I had mentioned the actual placement (in terms of dire need) of varna asrama facility and implementation. I gave reference to Mahamuni Brghupati, the propounder of VAD. Another citation which I will post here, is acknowledgement of how VAD is a system for the MUNDANE world. Please read:

 

SB 1:13:15

 

TRANSLATION

As long as Vidura played the part of a sudra, being cursed by Manduka Muni, Aryama officiated at the post of Yamaraja to punish those who committed sinful acts.

 

PURPORT

Vidura, born in the womb of a sudra woman, was forbidden even to be a party of royal heritage along with his brothers Dhritarashtra and Pandu. Then how could he occupy the post of a preacher to instruct such learned kings and kshatriyas as Dhritarashtra and Maharaja Yudhishthira? The first answer is that even though it is accepted that he was a sudra by birth, because he renounced the world for spiritual enlightenment by the authority of Rishi Maitreya and was thoroughly educated by him in transcendental knowledge, he was quite competent to occupy the post of an acarya, or spiritual preceptor. According to Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, anyone who is conversant in the transcendental knowledge, or the science of Godhead, be he a brahmana or a sudra, a householder or a sannyasi, is eligible to become a spiritual master. Even in the ordinary moral codes (maintained by Canakya Pandita, the great politician and moralist) there is no harm in taking lessons from a person who may be by birth less than a sudra. This is one part of the answer. The other is that Vidura was not actually a sudra. He was to play the part of a so-called sudra for one hundred years, being cursed by Manduka Muni. He was the incarnation of Yamaraja, one of the twelve mahajanas, on the level with such exalted personalities as Brahma, Narada, Siva, Kapila, Bhishma, Prahlada, etc. Being a mahajana, it is the duty of Yamaraja to preach the cult of devotion to the people of the world, as Narada, Brahma, and other mahajanas do. But Yamaraja is always busy in his plutonic kingdom punishing the doers of sinful acts. Yamaraja is deputed by the Lord to a particular planet, some hundreds of thousands of miles away from the planet of earth, to take away the corrupt souls after death and convict them in accordance with their respective sinful activities. Thus Yamaraja has very little time to take leave from his responsible office of punishing the wrongdoers. There are more wrongdoers than righteous men.

 

Therefore Yamaraja has to do more work than other demigods who are also authorized agents of the Supreme Lord. But he wanted to preach the glories of the Lord, and therefore by the will of the Lord he was cursed by Manduka Muni to come into the world in the incarnation of Vidura and work very hard as a great devotee. Such a devotee is neither a sudra nor a brahmana. He is transcendental to such divisions of mundane society, just as the Personality of Godhead assumes His incarnation as a hog, but He is neither a hog nor a Brahma. He is above all mundane creatures. The Lord and His different authorized devotees sometimes have to play the role of many lower creatures to claim the conditioned souls, but both the Lord and His pure devotees are always in the transcendental position. When Yamaraja thus incarnated himself as Vidura, his post was officiated by Aryama, one of the many sons of Kasyapa and Aditi. The Adityas are sons of Aditi, and there are twelve Adityas. Aryama is one of the twelve Adityas, and therefore it was quite possible for him to take charge of the office of Yamaraja during his one hundred years' absence in the form of Vidura. The conclusion is that Vidura was never a sudra, but was greater than the purest type of brahmana.

 

mahaksadasa: Another important discussion point we have had is that a disciple is a qualified spiritual master. This purport concerns this idea:

 

"The first answer is that even though it is accepted that he was a sudra by birth, because he renounced the world for spiritual enlightenment by the authority of Rishi Maitreya and was thoroughly educated by him in transcendental knowledge, he was quite competent to occupy the post of an acarya, or spiritual preceptor. According to Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, anyone who is conversant in the transcendental knowledge, or the science of Godhead, be he a brahmana or a sudra, a householder or a sannyasi, is eligible to become a spiritual master. Even in the ordinary moral codes (maintained by Canakya Pandita, the great politician and moralist) there is no harm in taking lessons from a person who may be by birth less than a sudra. This is one part of the answer."

 

mahaksadasa: This is consistant in all of Srila Prabhupadas instructions on guru tattwa. There is nothing anywhere where we find material disqualification for one who acts as acarya. Vidura hears from Maitreya, thus he is fully qualified to chant to others all that Maitreya has spoken. Acarya also means that new stuff is not made up, so the key is not only finding an authorized disciple to hear from, but to ascertain his validity by the guru-shastra-sadhu checks and balances needed to ascertain authenticity. Because the disciple is a reciprocal relative of the acarya by dint of initiation, the disciple also has great responsibility to make certain their is no false doctrine exiustant in their understanding.

 

From this important verse, we see that a sudra is acceptable as spiritual master, not relagated to mundane labor to maintain social convention. Such a sudra, as Vidura, transcends all mundane positioning on the VAD ladder. Bypassing someone like Vidura because of materialistic consideration is foolish, and actually dooms anyone even if they are perfectly compliant with VAD principles. Great Brahmanas failed miserably when they denied Srila Haridas Thakur for similar mundane considerations.

 

Yes, folks, the first canto of Srimad Bhagavatam is the nectar for which we are anxious. There is no fault to be found by those who are thoroughly honest. This canto places us at the feet of Srila Sukadeva Goswami, who is inspired to appear before us at this time of our passing from this realm to the next. This first canto is essential to all discussion of guru tattwa because this is the main subject matter. This canto especially teaches us to place ourselves in position to hear by ASKING who is authorized to deliver us from samsara, threefold miseries, etc. None of us are even guaranteed seven days. This canto especially tells of the guru tattwa and thwe reciprocation in the guru-disciple relationships, showing how Brahma appears before Narada, how Narada appears to Vyasa when Vyasa is not very well pleased by his product of religiosity (the Vedas), and how Sukadeva hears from Vyasa, how Vidura approaches, Maitreya, how Suta Goswami is addressing those at naimisaranya. The original bhagavatam is in the first canto (the atma rama verses), and full coverages of all the rasas as described in the teachings of Queen Kunthi as well as the authorized revelations of King Bhisma. All glories to Srimad Bhagavatam, as shastra, as Lord in the Heart who incarnates an this literature, and as the acarya who sings such glories to Lord Krsna. All three, guru, shastra, and sadhu, can be properly referred to as Srimad Bhagavatam.

 

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

 

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

[Bhakta Devarsi]

 

Another citation which I will post here, is acknowledgement of how VAD is a system for the MUNDANE world.

 

This only tells half the story. It is a prescription for getting out of the mundane world as well, in conjunction with chanting the Maha-Mantra, and it actually supports our chanting of the Maha-Mantra by aiding us to chant it offensively.

 

That said, I read where Srila Prabhupada wrote in a foreward or preface to his original Delhi production of the First canto in 3 parts, where he said the entire philosophy of Gaudiya Vaisnavism was contained in those three books.

 

I wish I had saved that quote, because I have scoured the internet and cannot find it.

 

It may actually be in the First book of the Delhi set. But that is out on loan, and inaccessible.

 

So for a bunch of mudhas, how do we qualify to chant the name offenselessly, when it is obvious that we have begun and continue to waver between the reflection and the shadow of the name?

 

Use the support system offered by the Lord and his Acharya, the one that is supposed to assist the name, the one that assists material minded people to come closer to goodness, and get the full benefit of the name.

 

We are all disciples to the degree we are strictly following, and anyone from any varna may relate their honest experience with their sadhana of chanting and living in a devotional community (DVD), and if the person they are speaking to is receptive and not trying to flee the scene, they are acting as good as acharya.

 

Such behavior is rare, but perfectly possible.

 

Hare Krsna

[bhaktatraveler]

 

This only tells half the story. It is a prescription for getting out of the mundane world as well, in conjunction with chanting the Maha-Mantra, and it actually supports our chanting of the Maha-Mantra by aiding us to chant it offensively.

 

That said, I read where Srila Prabhupada wrote in a foreward or preface to his original Delhi production of the First canto in 3 parts, where he said the entire philosophy of Gaudiya Vaisnavism was contained in those three books.

 

I wish I had saved that quote, because I have scoured the internet and cannot find it.

 

It may actually be in the First book of the Delhi set. But that is out on loan, and inaccessible.

 

So for a bunch of mudhas, how do we qualify to chant the name offenselessly, when it is obvious that we have begun and continue to waver between the reflection and the shadow of the name?

 

Use the support system offered by the Lord and his Acharya, the one that is supposed to assist the name, the one that assists material minded people to come closer to goodness, and get the full benefit of the name.

 

We are all disciples to the degree we are strictly following, and anyone from any varna may relate their honest experience with their sadhana of chanting and living in a devotional community (DVD), and if the person they are speaking to is receptive and not trying to flee the scene, they are acting as good as acharya.

 

Such behavior is rare, but perfectly possible.

 

Hare Krsna

 

 

Yes rare indead, like one in a million. In those DVD conversations, especially on 2/15/77 He says 'who will chant like Lord Caitanya'

 

 

Satsvarupa: Lord Caitanya, when Ramananda Raya brought this up He said it was not possible in this age to introduce this.

 

Prabhupada: Yes. Not... He did not say possible. Iha bahya. Caitanya Mahaprabhu was interested only on the spiritual platform. He had no idea of material side. He rejected material side.

 

Satsvarupa: But don’t we do that also?

 

Prabhupada: No. Our position is different. We are trying to implement Krishna consciousness in everything. And Caitanya Mahaprabhu personally took sannyasa. He rejected completely material. Nishkincana. But we are not going to be nishkincana. We are trying to cement the troubled position of the... That is also in the prescription of Bhagavad-gita. We are not rejecting the whole society. Caitanya Mahaprabhu rejected everything, iha bahya. Rejected meaning, “I do not take much interest in this.” Bahya. “It is external.” He was simply interested in the internal, the spiritual. But our duty is that we shall arrange the external affairs also so nicely that one day they will come to the spiritual platform very easily, paving the way. And Caitanya Mahaprabhu, personality like that, they have nothing to do with this material world. But we are preaching. We are preaching. Therefore we must pave the situation in such a way that gradually they will be promoted to the spiritual plane, which is not required.

 

Satsvarupa: Varnasrama is not required.

 

Prabhupada: Not required. Caitanya Mahaprabhu denied, “I am not brahmana, I am not kshatriya, I am not this, I am not this.” He rejected. But in the Bhagavad-gita, the catur-varnyam maya srishtam [bg. 4.13]. So we are Krishna..., preaching Krishna consciousness. It must be done.

 

Hari-sauri: But in Caitanya Mahaprabhu’s practical preaching He only induced them to chant.

 

Prabhupada: That is not possible for ordinary man.

 

Hari-sauri: What, to simply induce people to chant?

 

Prabhupada: Hm?

 

Hari-sauri: He only introduced just the chanting.

 

Prabhupada: But who will chant? Who’ll chant?

 

Satsvarupa: But if they won’t chant, then neither will they train up in the varnasrama. That’s the easiest.

 

Prabhupada: The chanting will be there, but you cannot expect that people will chant like Caitanya Mahaprabhu. They cannot even chant sixteen rounds. (And) these rascals are going to be Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

 

Satsvarupa: No. But if they at least will chant and take some prasada...

 

Prabhupada: Chanting will go on. That is not stopped. But at the same time the varnasrama-dharma must be established to make the way easy.

 

Hari-sauri: Well, at least my own understanding was that the chanting was introduced in the age of Kali because varnasrama is not possible.

 

Prabhupada: Because it will cleanse the mind. Chanting will not stop.

 

Hari-sauri: So therefore the chanting was introduced to replace all of the systems of varnasrama and like that.

 

Prabhupada: Yes, it can replace, but who is going to replace it? The... People are not so advanced. If you imitate Haridasa Thakura to chant, it is not possible.

 

CB-r

[Guest guest]

CC Madhya 8.56: Rāmānanda Rāya approached Lord Śrī Caitanya and offered his respectful obeisances, and the Lord embraced him. Then they began to discuss Kṛṣṇa in a secluded place.

 

CC Madhya 8.57: Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu ordered Rāmānanda Rāya, "Recite a verse from the revealed scriptures concerning the ultimate goal of life."Rāmānanda replied, "If one executes the prescribed duties of his social position, he awakens his original Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

 

CC Madhya 8.58: "'The Supreme Personality of Godhead, Lord Viṣṇu, is worshiped by the proper execution of prescribed duties in the system of <b>varṇa and āśrama</b>. There is no other way to satisfy the Supreme Personality of Godhead. One must be situated in the institution of the four varṇas and āśramas.'"

 

CC Madhya 8.59: The Lord replied, "<b>This is external. You had better tell Me of some other means. </b>"Rāmānanda replied, "To offer the results of one's activities to Kṛṣṇa is the essence of all perfection."

 

CC Madhya 8.60: Rāmānanda Rāya continued, "'My dear son of Kuntī, whatever you do, whatever you eat, whatever you offer in sacrifice, whatever you give in charity, and whatever austerities you perform, all the results of such activities should be offered to Me, Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead.'"

 

CC Madhya 8.61: "This is also external," Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu said. "Please proceed and speak further on this matter."Rāmānanda Rāya replied, "To give up one's occupational duties in the varṇāśrama system is the essence of perfection."

 

CC Madhya 8.62: Rāmānanda Rāya continued, "'Occupational duties are described in the religious scriptures. If one analyzes them, he can fully understand their qualities and faults and then give them up completely to render service unto the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Such a person is considered a first-class man.'

 

CC Madhya 8.63: "As stated in scripture [bg. 18.66], 'After giving up all kinds of religious and occupational duties, if you come to Me, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and take shelter, I will give you protection from all of life's sinful reactions. Do not worry.'"

 

CC Madhya 8.64: After hearing Rāmānanda Rāya speak in this way, Lord Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu again rejected his statement and said, "Go ahead and say something more."Rāmānanda Rāya then replied, "Devotional service mixed with empiric knowledge is the essence of perfection."

 

CC Madhya 8.65: Rāmānanda Rāya continued, "According to the Bhagavad-gītā, 'One who is thus transcendentally situated at once realizes the Supreme Brahman and becomes fully joyful. He never laments or desires to have anything. He is equally disposed toward every living entity. In that state he attains pure devotional service unto Me.'"

 

CC Madhya 8.66: After hearing this, the Lord, as usual, rejected it, considering it to be external devotional service. He again asked Rāmānanda Rāya to speak further, and Rāmānanda Rāya replied, "Pure devotional service without any touch of speculative knowledge is the essence of perfection."

 

CC Madhya 8.67: Rāmānanda Rāya continued, "Lord Brahmā said, 'My dear Lord, those devotees who have thrown away the impersonal conception of the Absolute Truth and have therefore abandoned discussing empiric philosophical truths should hear from self-realized devotees about Your holy name, form, pastimes and qualities. They should completely follow the principles of devotional service and remain free from illicit sex, gambling, intoxication and animal slaughter. Surrendering themselves fully with body, words and mind, they can live in any āśrama or social status. Indeed, You are conquered by such persons, although You are always unconquerable.'"

 

CC Madhya 8.68: At this point, Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu replied, "This is all right, but still you can speak more on the subject."Rāmānanda Rāya then replied, "Ecstatic love for the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the essence of all perfection."

 

CC Madhya 8.69: Rāmānanda Rāya continued, "'As long as there is hunger and thirst within the stomach, varieties of food and drink make one feel very happy. Similarly, when the Lord is worshiped with pure love, the various activities performed in the course of that worship awaken transcendental bliss in the heart of the devotee.'

 

CC Madhya 8.70: "'Pure devotional service in Kṛṣṇa consciousness cannot be had even by pious activity in hundreds and thousands of lives. It can be attained only by paying one price — that is, intense greed to obtain it. If it is available somewhere, one must purchase it without delay.'"

 

CC Madhya 8.71: Hearing up to the point of spontaneous love, the Lord said, "This is all right, but if you know more, please tell Me."In reply, Rāmānanda Rāya said, "Spontaneous loving service in servitude — as exchanged by master and servant — is the highest perfection.

 

CC Madhya 8.72: "'A man becomes purified simply by hearing the holy name of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, whose lotus feet create the holy places of pilgrimage. Therefore what remains to be attained by those who have become His servants?'

 

CC Madhya 8.73: "'By serving You constantly, one is freed from all material desires and is completely pacified. When shall I engage as Your permanent eternal servant and always feel joyful to have such a perfect master?'"

[Bhakta Devarsi]

Oh my oh my.

 

After such a well placed quote from Srila Prabhupada, so well highlighted and emphasised by Caturbahu dasa, what better than the guest pasting a quote from the CC, as if its existence defeats you and Srila Prabhupada, when that is the very conversation between our Lord and his highest confidant Sri Ramananda Raya that Srila Prabhupada is referring to and commenting on, which actually becomes a strong chastisement and then a direct order to the leaders of his society.

 

"varnasrama-dharma must be established to make the way easy."

"It must be done."

 

It is so sad that such people as Hari Sauri have convinced people such as Guest 23 that they are already so advanced like Ramananda Raya and Sri Haridas Thakur, that they can refute Srila Prabhupada's own directives to his disciples by cutting and pasting his translation from the CC. So sad, and I mean it.

 

Just look at the challenging attitude of Hari Sauri.

 

"Well, at least my own understanding was that the chanting was introduced in the age of Kali because varnasrama is not possible."

 

In the context, after direct orders from Srila Prabhupada, this is said by Hari Sauri not in a mood of submissive inquiry, but in an attempt to directly refute the person who he calls his Spiritual Master.

 

And then after the next statement from Srila Prabhupada, he directly refutes the whole import by stating AUTHORITATIVELY "So therefore the chanting was introduced to replace all of the systems of varnasrama and like that."

 

And Srila Prabhupada deftly agrees with him, but then sticks this challenge to his challenger...

 

"Yes, it can replace, but who is going to replace it? The... People are not so advanced. If you imitate Haridasa Thakura to chant, it is not possible."

And then the coverup got serious when Rameshwara ordered Ameyatma dasa to hide the tape with the Vrndabana Varnasrama morning walks because "It will ruin everything".

 

Srila Prabhupada was surrounded with ilk such as this most every day, and he handled them with such grace and aplomb, I could only dream of being a speck of dust at his lotus feet.

 

Until then I will do my little thing and take my sword to the contingent that Lord Maya has sent to stifle the truth.

 

Hare Krsna

[Guest guest]

Bhaktirasamrtasindhu, verse 1.2.246, by Sri Rupa Goswami:

 

sammatam bhakti-vijnanam bhakty-angatvam na karmanam

Translation: The consensus of those knowledgeable of bhakti is that karma (varnashrama duties) is not an anga (part) of bhakti.

 

Visvanatha Cakravarti commentary:

<b>

The statements of Visnu Purana that approve of varnashama as bhakti have been spoken only to encourage those persons who are not qualified to engage in pure bhakti.

 

Srila Rupa Goswami states in this verse that the consensus (sammatam) of those thorougly experienced in bhakti, the pure devotees, including even Parasara Rsi, is thus:

 

O Maitreya, King Bharata simply said, "O master of sacrifice, O Acyuta, O Govinda, Madhava, Ananta, Keshava, Krishna, Visnu, Hrishikesha". He said nothing else, even in his dreams, and by engaging in chanting alone, by bhakti alone, he attained perfection . Visnu Purana 1.13.10

 

</b>

Sri Jiva Goswami commentary.

<b>

This verse explains the circumstances in which the performance of varnashrama is applicable. One should perform varnashrama duties until one reaches detachment from enjoyment and develops faith in bhakti.</b>

[brajeshwara das]

 

Sri Jiva Goswami commentary.

 

This verse explains the circumstances in which the performance of varnashrama is applicable. One should perform varnashrama duties until one reaches detachment from enjoyment and develops faith in bhakti.

That is in line with Srila Swami Maharaj wanting the varnashrama colleges set up. In my opinion, once they have faith, then they take initiation. That should be the way it is handled right now, but surely the faithless get initiated anyway. My experience has been that I see people all too eager to get someone initiated when they should just be encouraging them to develop their faith. Like some sort of sport to win souls or something. 'Our team got another point!' I think this is what Srila Swami Maharaj was saying when he was referring to the people recommending bhaktas for initiation. I know devotees are also eager to share the mercy, so please forgive my words here, it's not like the intention is necessarily wrong. Just the outcome if the devotee isn't ready to follow the regulations.

[bhaktatraveler]

 

Bhaktirasamrtasindhu, verse 1.2.246, by Sri Rupa Goswami:

 

sammatam bhakti-vijnanam bhakty-angatvam na karmanam

Translation: The consensus of those knowledgeable of bhakti is that karma (varnashrama duties) is not an anga (part) of bhakti.

 

Visvanatha Cakravarti commentary:

 

The statements of Visnu Purana that approve of varnashama as bhakti have been spoken only to encourage those persons who are not qualified to engage in pure bhakti.

Srila Rupa Goswami states in this verse that the consensus (sammatam) of those thorougly experienced in bhakti, the pure devotees, including even Parasara Rsi, is thus:

O Maitreya, King Bharata simply said, "O master of sacrifice, O Acyuta, O Govinda, Madhava, Ananta, Keshava, Krishna, Visnu, Hrishikesha". He said nothing else, even in his dreams, and by engaging in chanting alone, by bhakti alone, he attained perfection . Visnu Purana 1.13.10

Sri Jiva Goswami commentary.

 

This verse explains the circumstances in which the performance of varnashrama is applicable. One should perform varnashrama duties until one reaches detachment from enjoyment and develops faith in bhakti.

 

 

Yes, we should perform DVD until and after detachment is reached. Or how else are you going to live? Now I'm detached let me go to work in the factory, or big office building? No, Ever Krsna lives by these general standards. As a great(pure) man does, common men will follow.

 

For followers of Srila Prabhupada we will engage our lives now and after perfection in the sociology of DVD. It is not just of the begining, DVD is how we will live in our material bodies always.

 

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti-raja

[bhaktatraveler]

 

That is in line with Srila Swami Maharaj wanting the varnashrama colleges set up. In my opinion, once they have faith, then they take initiation. That should be the way it is handled right now, but surely the faithless get initiated anyway. My experience has been that I see people all too eager to get someone initiated when they should just be encouraging them to develop their faith. Like some sort of sport to win souls or something. 'Our team got another point!' I think this is what Srila Swami Maharaj was saying when he was referring to the people recommending bhaktas for initiation. I know devotees are also eager to share the mercy, so please forgive my words here, it's not like the intention is necessarily wrong. Just the outcome if the devotee isn't ready to follow the regulations.

 

 

Your opinon has been defeated numerous times. Yet you still speak the same errorneous standards for ISKCON's DVD cosmology.

 

CB-r

[Guest guest]

Concern for social progress (varnasrama) is a symptom of the disease of worldly attachment. Desiring political influence and worldly success many misguided souls attempt to implement social plans as a way of attaining personal influence and prestige. However the true devotees busy themselves with service of the Deity of Lord Sri Hari.

yasah sriyam eva parisramah paro varnasramacara-tapah-srutadisu

avismrtih sridhara-padapadmayor gunanuvada-sravanadaradibhih

Bha: 12.12.54

 

"The prescribed duties of the Varnasrama hierarchy, performance of austerity, and study of the Scriptures - belabored adherence to such practices merely panders to one's reputation and influence. But by the divine services beginning with devotedly hearing the glories of the Lord, the supreme reward of never forgetting the lotus feet of Sri Hari is gained."

 

Neglecting the all-important duty of surrendering totally to the will of Sri Hari, the souls in illusion rotate in the cycle of birth and death endlessly. But to those souls who abandon worldly success and failure the Lord gives the greatest treasure: true devotion.

 

"O wicked mind, do not fear the multifarious, perpetual tortures that are your due because of your past actions. Your enemies - your sins, have no claim over you because the only actual lord and master is the Supreme Lord, Sridhara. Give up your apathy, and absorb your thoughts in Lord Narayana, who is happily attainable by devotion. Is not He who destroys the calamities of all planets capable of annihilating the defects of His personal servitors?"

- Sri Kulasekhara

 

"For those persons who, bereft of a vessel, have fallen into the ocean of mundane existence; who are being lashed by the hurricane of duality based on mundane attraction and aversion; who are crushed by the burden of protecting wife and family, etc.; who are drowning in the ghastly whirlpool of sensual pleasures - the only shelter is the lifeboat of the holy lotus feet of the Supreme Lord, Visnu."

- Sri Kulasekhara

 

 

---------------------

Verses from Sri Sri Prappana Jivanamrtam

[Shakti-Fan]

 

DVD is how we will live in our material bodies always.

 

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti-raja

The paramahamsa stage of life is beyond the purview of daiva varnasrama dharma. The Six Goswamis manifested that stage of life, wore only white kopins and lived under a different tree every night. Srila Prabhupada said that, "if you try to do that then you will die." Still we must acknowledge that such a stage of life exists. Mathala hari jana kirtana range/ pujala raga patha gaurava bhange. We put this on our head and worship it from afar. As Srila Sridhar Maharaja has said this pujala raga patha verse is "the very gist of Bhaktisiddhanta vani".

[Bhakta Devarsi]

 

Your opinon has been defeated numerous times. Yet you still speak the same errorneous standards for ISKCON's DVD cosmology.

 

CB-r

 

Since the beginning of these varnashrama discussions, Brajeshwara dasa has admitted that he is not familiar with all the intricacies of what Srila Prabhupada wanted for Iskcon, admitted to skimming the evidence presented, yet still feels compelled to offer opinions. As a devil's advocate and foil for how not to understand DVD, this has worked quite well, but it is getting a bit redundant.

 

It is a razor's edge. Be informed or be in bad form.

 

Hare Krsna

[brajeshwara das]

 

Since the beginning of these varnashrama discussions, Brajeshwara dasa has admitted that he is not familiar with all the intricacies of what Srila Prabhupada wanted for Iskcon, admitted to skimming the evidence presented, yet still feels compelled to offer opinions. As a devil's advocate and foil for how not to understand DVD, this has worked quite well, but it is getting a bit redundant.

 

It is a razor's edge. Be informed or be in bad form.

 

Hare Krsna

 

You guys have your interpretation and I have mine. You can say I'm wrong, that's your right, but again I can see you two as being misguided myself. The Lord knows the truth, that's good enough for me.

[brajeshwara das]

 

Your opinon has been defeated numerous times. Yet you still speak the same errorneous standards for ISKCON's DVD cosmology.

 

CB-r

It has not been defeated. It has been ignored. Tell me, what if it were true that Srila Swami Maharaj was referring to you acting as a ksatriya but never intended you to eat meat, would you stop? To me there is way too little evidence to make the jump that it is OK to do so. You guys are method actors who went off the deep end and think you are the roles you have been assigned. You forget you were initiated to be devotees independent of the varnas. That you would choose that identity as your primary role is your choice. That great, enjoy your movie.

 

You guys also say people were tricked and I just don't buy it. That some maybe didn't read the contract is their fault as much if not more than anyone elses'.

 

Anyhow, you guys make a very big jump to say that he wanted different initiations, he never said this. Bhakta Devarsi said 'in essense' but this is speculation. The safe position would be to say as I have said, that you implement your DVD system but initiates follow the regs as introduced and never changed by Srila Swami Maharaj. More care should be used so the vows are fully understood and people know what they are signing up for.

 

You guys trust your own speculative conclusions way too much. Anyone elses interpretations of the same conversations are ridiculed. It is a pattern of behavior you guys engage in all too often. Whatever, enjoy your false egos. I can expect some "we are advanced and when you get to the stage we are at you will understand' self-boasting nonsense to come, it follows any time anyone tried to make any sort of peace with you two.

 

My position is that I don't know. But I looked for evidence for changing the regs for initiated Hari Nama disciples and I don't see it. So I still don't know. It may be the case, it may not. But it is a leap of faith in your own minds and not in Guru's directions to say that it is so. I'm going with the parampara in that Srila Sridhar Maharaj, Srila Govinda Maharaj, Srila Bhatisiddhanta Saraswati Prabhupada and all the other exhalted Vaisnavas have not come to this conclusion of yours, so I just don't buy it.