Is A Physically Present Spiritual Master Required?

[Guruvani]

And the fakers are all crawling out of the woodwork spouting off their bigotry as they stand as living proof that formal diksha is a joke.

 

formal diksha didn't help you guys, so why are you saying that somebody else has to have it?

 

it's guys like you clowns that have me convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt that your formal diksha was a waste of good ghee and barley.

[theist]

Amazingly some devotees almost slavishly hang on to the notion that their guru is a physical body. I just can't understand why.

 

Oh well.

[Guruvani]

 

A living siksa Guru is essential..

 

The living siksha guru didn't do any miracles on you, so why are you saying that a living guru is so essential?

 

You are here as a testimony that the living siksha guru couldn't help you, so why do you think a living guru is going to help somebody else?

 

Your problem is that you try to classify siksha gurus into two classifactions as living and dead.

Well, shastra doesn't refer to anything such thing as a dead siksha guru.

 

That is your invention, but it is a sorry attitude that thinks of any liberated soul as a dead guru.

 

Bhaktivinode says that a Vaishnava "dies to live" and living spreads the Holy Name around.

 

So, Bhaktivinode says that even "dead" Vaishnavas continue to spread the Holy Name around.

 

There are many "dead" gurus that are more guru than your "living" guru.

[gHari]

It is said that a pure devotee purifies the atmosphere. This has got to help.

[Guest guest]

 

Hey, we might as well use the tape-recording version of diksha, because in the long run I think it will do less harm than all these gurus running around the world playing jagat-guru.

 

It's all a joke.

I prefer the tape recording version because at least we know Srila Prabhupada isn't going to bloop and run off with a Hare Krishna girl and bunch of money.

 

Your living guru joke is not the solution.

It's just a different kind of joke.

 

So, at least we should try and teach people to accept a self-realized soul as guru even if he doesn't sport a bag of stool and urine in the name of "living guru".

 

These "living gurus" don't have anything on Srila Prabhupada just because they have a bag of stool and urine to flap around in front of people.

 

You have no clue what the Gayatri Mantra is, or how it works. When Prabhupada gave this mantra by tape it was out of sheer neccessity as mantra produced in that way is a mere material vibration. It is the consciousness of the speaker of the mantra that opens the connection for the listener, not the audible sound produced by the tape player.

 

As to the "bag of stool and urine" - it is an offensive mentality to think in such terms when it comes to guru's body. Try to apply the same concept to your own guru and see how it feels.

 

Just like Prabhupada had a living guru, and just like you had a living guru - everybody needs a living guru. What's good for Prabhupada is good for all of us.

 

Before you can "improve" the tradition, first try a little harder to understand it.

[krsna]

It is said that a pure devotee purifies the atmosphere. This has got to help. :)

[Guest guest]

 

And the fakers are all crawling out of the woodwork spouting off their bigotry as they stand as living proof that formal diksha is a joke.

 

So what kind of diksa was Prabhupada giving? According to you ritviks most of his disciples turned out to be the fakers. Was that diksa a joke too? What kind of siksa was he giving if - as you say - many of his closest disciples turned out to be snakes and traitors?

 

Be careful with your "arguments" as they can be easily turned against you.

 

You can call people all kinds of names, but it is very childish.

[Guest guest]

 

Amazingly some devotees almost slavishly hang on to the notion that their guru is a physical body. I just can't understand why.

 

Oh well.

 

No, we think that our guru is using a physical body to make contact with us in MOST USEFUL AND EFFICIENT way. Remember? Gurus dont float down from Vaikuntha is a bubble of etherial light. THEY ARE BORN IN PYSICAL BODIES because this is what is REQUIRED. Remember Parampara? We are disciples of LIVING GURUS not disciples of Krsna.

 

Think, for crying out loud:

 

What is the use of non-embodied gurus if we all have Paramatma in our heart?

 

You have been around for decades and you still dont understand the basics. Is that a PROOF you need a living guru?

[Guruvani]

 

You have no clue what the Gayatri Mantra is, or how it works. When Prabhupada gave this mantra by tape it was out of sheer neccessity as mantra produced in that way is a mere material vibration. It is the consciousness of the speaker of the mantra that opens the connection for the listener, not the audible sound produced by the tape player.

 

As to the "bag of stool and urine" - it is an offensive mentality to think in such terms when it comes to guru's body. Try to apply the same concept to your own guru and see how it feels.

 

Just like Prabhupada had a living guru, and just like you had a living guru - everybody needs a living guru. What's good for Prabhupada is good for all of us.

 

Before you can "improve" the tradition, first try a little harder to understand it.

First what you must understand is that the sound from the gayatri tape is no different than the sound coming from the lips of Srila Prabhupada.

 

Your hocus-pocus version of some magic in the sound coming from the mouth as any more spiritual than the sound coming from the audio player is just more of the "living guru" scam.

 

Because when Srila Prabhupada recorded the gayatri on tape he spiritualized the energy of that tape and the sound that comes from the machine is no different than the sound coming from the mouth.

 

What you so foolishly forget is that the body is also a machine.

Krishna explains in the Gita that the body is a machine made out of material energy.

 

The vocal chords of the body are part of a machine.

Everybody is getting the mantra through a machine.

Either the machine is a body machine or the machine is a tape player, but both are machines made out of material energy that can be used in the service of Krishna and spiritualized.

 

The body is not a living thing, it is a machine.

It's the soul in the body that is the living thing.

 

The soul can use any number of machines in the service of Krishna and spiritualize that energy.

 

Your guru is actually just a very sophisticated robot.

His body is a machine.

He is NOT the body.

 

When Srila Prabhupada recorded gayatri mantras on tape the energy of the tape became spiritualized just as much as the sound that comes out of YOUR robot guru who is not the body machine robot.

 

See, you buffoons are still in the bodily concept of life and you think that the machine body that the soul is in is the guru.

 

The guru is not a machine- either the body or the tape player.

 

The guru is transcendental spirit and using this machine or that machine to transmit the message of Krishna to the suffering souls of the material world.

 

Your got your mantras from a machine as well - the machine of the human body.

 

This whole world is a robot world of machines we call the body.

 

Besides that, you are living proof that getting the mantra from the body machine is no more effective than getting it from the tape player machine.

 

You haven't attained siddhi yet with you mantras you got from the robot machine you think is your guru, so who are you you to make claims about which form of mantra is better than the other.

 

You have no proof and YOU are certainly not proof that getting the mantra from the lips of the gurus is any better than getting it from a tape player.

 

So, you are justing talking crap because nobody has proved yet that there is any special magic in getting mantra from the vocal chords is any better than getting it from the tape player.

 

If you weren't a fraud and a farce you would admit that your mantras didn't do any magic and you are still clueless about your spiritual identity..

[Guruvani]

 

So what kind of diksa was Prabhupada giving? According to you ritviks most of his disciples turned out to be the fakers. Was that diksa a joke too? What kind of siksa was he giving if - as you say - many of his closest disciples turned out to be snakes and traitors?

 

Be careful with your "arguments" as they can be easily turned against you.

 

You can call people all kinds of names, but it is very childish.

You have just confirmed what I am saying.

Devotees from both systems fall down.

Either they get intiated by tape or in person there are devotees falling down.

Devotees who got intiation in person fall down just as easy as devotees who got initiated by tape.

 

It doesn't matter where or how you get initiated.

If a devotee is completely sincere he will succeed even if he never got any kind of formal diksha.

 

It all comes down to sincerity.

Where or how you get initiated is not the real secret to success.

 

Even devotees that never got formal initiation can succeed where initiated devotees fail.

 

I don't believe any anthing except sincerity.

Rituals and formalities don't really make the difference between success or failure................sincerity does.

 

There is plenty of proof in the history of the movement that formal diksha didn't do any magic on anyone.

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaja once said that all Vaishnavas are gurus.

Devotees are chanting Hare Krishna all over the world and initiating the whole world into the chanting of Hare Krishna.

 

One Vaishnava is just as much guru as the next.

It's not that only Narayana Maharaja or the ISKCON gurus are gurus.

 

All Vaishnavas are gurus and anyone that has ever had any contact with the Krishna consciousness movement has heard the Maha mantra from a Vaishnava - a guru.

 

That is sufficient and that is enough.

 

All these rituals and formalities have become a scam and I for one don't buy into the scam.

 

Narayana Maharaja is not guru any more that any other Vaishnava.

 

According to Sridhar Maharaja all Vaishnavas are guru.

 

I don't see one Vaishnava as guru and the other as not guru.

 

If we don't see all Vaishnavas as guru, then we aren't guru or Vaishnava.

[suchandra]

 

You have just confirmed what I am saying.

Devotees from both systems fall down.

 

 

What was it that empowered the rtvik process while Srila Prabhupad was still present that is missing now that transformed what was once a bona-fide system into a seriously deviant and bogus system?

What empowered that system prior to Srila Prabhupad's disappearance?

What was the authorizing element that made this process effective and bona-fide?

After Srila Prabhupad's disappearance the GBC halted this rtvik process, declaring it no longer valid, no longer authorized.

 

Other then the GBC self-declaring it unauthorized, what other shastric factors can the GBC point to that now rendered that process invalid?

 

They say that it goes against tradition, but the rtvik system Srila Prabhupad set up is not supported by tradition either before or after his disappearance. They say it will mean the end to the sampradaya, that is totally untrue. Neither of those speculations can be upheld by shastra.

 

Neither will they answer the question as to what empowered the process in the first place.

 

That answer is simple. The process was established and empowered by the eternally living instructions of the spiritual master.

 

Prabhupada's instructions are what empowered the process. His instructions establishing the system did not violate any Vedic injunction, thus his instructions and the process as he set it up are authorized. They were empowered by his words and everyone, including the GBC, accept this fact - at least up to his disappearance. What the GBC have failed to do is to provide any viable, verifiable shastric evidence that the process automatically becomes bogus at the disappearance of the body of the acharya. There is no such limitation because there is no such limitation on the instructions of the bona-fide spiritual master. His instructions never contained any such restriction or limitation. His instruction are living and eternal. There are no other shastric injunctions that limit or restrict this process, thus his words stand. His instructions empowered the rtvik process before his departure, and they continue to empower the process.

The words and instructions of the spiritual master live eternally, and those who follow his instructions live with him.

 

The force that empowered the process on Nov 13, 1977 remained in force, without any change or restriction, on Nov 15, 1977.

 

But, the GBC declare differently yet fail to provide valid shastric evidence to support their speculative position. Simply their own conjecture. Their own opinion, their own assumption or speculation.

 

The GBC simply say it is bogus - no other explanation.

[Shakti-Fan]

 

 

Even devotees that never got formal initiation can succeed where initiated devotees fail.

 

I don't believe any anthing except sincerity.

Rituals and formalities don't really make the difference between success or failure................sincerity does....

 

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaja once said that all Vaishnavas are gurus.

Devotees are chanting Hare Krishna all over the world and initiating the whole world into the chanting of Hare Krishna.

 

One Vaishnava is just as much guru as the next.

It's not that only Narayana Maharaja or the ISKCON gurus are gurus.

 

All Vaishnavas are gurus and anyone that has ever had any contact with the Krishna consciousness movement has heard the Maha mantra from a Vaishnava - a guru.

 

That is sufficient and that is enough.

 

All these rituals and formalities have become a scam and I for one don't buy into the scam.

 

Narayana Maharaja is not guru any more that any other Vaishnava.

 

According to Sridhar Maharaja all Vaishnavas are guru.

 

I don't see one Vaishnava as guru and the other as not guru.

 

If we don't see all Vaishnavas as guru, then we aren't guru or Vaishnava.

[Guest guest]

 

First what you must understand is that the sound from the gayatri tape is no different than the sound coming from the lips of Srila Prabhupada...

 

this is merely your assumption, without any basis in shastra or even rudimentary understanding of what mantra is.

 

mantra has three elements:

 

lowest level - physical vibration (sound)

middle level - vibration in the ether (thought or consciousness)

deep level - eternal and ever present spiritual reality of the mantra (Krsna's actual presence invoked by the mantra)

 

taped mantra is just a physical sound. it is YOUR consciousness that does or does not take it further. in a typical case of initiation - the disciple has no power to take it further. thus it is a waste of time as no connection to Krsna is made.

[Guest guest]

Guruvani prabhu ... don't get me wrong but reading all your posts from the last few days, you sound like a terribly insecure person ready to go on a tear or something. If that is indeed the state of your mind, you need help prabhu ... the association of sincere devotees.

 

All you've been doing is committing Vaisnava aparadha through these posts, denigrating everyone who disagrees with you, including great vaisnava acaryas like Srila Narayana Maharaja. You're digging your own grave. Not a very wise thing to do.

 

 

First what you must understand is that the sound from the gayatri tape is no different than the sound coming from the lips of Srila Prabhupada.

 

Your hocus-pocus version of some magic in the sound coming from the mouth as any more spiritual than the sound coming from the audio player is just more of the "living guru" scam.

 

Because when Srila Prabhupada recorded the gayatri on tape he spiritualized the energy of that tape and the sound that comes from the machine is no different than the sound coming from the mouth.

 

What you so foolishly forget is that the body is also a machine.

Krishna explains in the Gita that the body is a machine made out of material energy.

 

The vocal chords of the body are part of a machine.

Everybody is getting the mantra through a machine.

Either the machine is a body machine or the machine is a tape player, but both are machines made out of material energy that can be used in the service of Krishna and spiritualized.

 

The body is not a living thing, it is a machine.

It's the soul in the body that is the living thing.

 

The soul can use any number of machines in the service of Krishna and spiritualize that energy.

 

Your guru is actually just a very sophisticated robot.

His body is a machine.

He is NOT the body.

 

When Srila Prabhupada recorded gayatri mantras on tape the energy of the tape became spiritualized just as much as the sound that comes out of YOUR robot guru who is not the body machine robot.

 

See, you buffoons are still in the bodily concept of life and you think that the machine body that the soul is in is the guru.

 

The guru is not a machine- either the body or the tape player.

 

The guru is transcendental spirit and using this machine or that machine to transmit the message of Krishna to the suffering souls of the material world.

 

Your got your mantras from a machine as well - the machine of the human body.

 

This whole world is a robot world of machines we call the body.

 

Besides that, you are living proof that getting the mantra from the body machine is no more effective than getting it from the tape player machine.

 

You haven't attained siddhi yet with you mantras you got from the robot machine you think is your guru, so who are you you to make claims about which form of mantra is better than the other.

 

You have no proof and YOU are certainly not proof that getting the mantra from the lips of the gurus is any better than getting it from a tape player.

 

So, you are justing talking crap because nobody has proved yet that there is any special magic in getting mantra from the vocal chords is any better than getting it from the tape player.

 

If you weren't a fraud and a farce you would admit that your mantras didn't do any magic and you are still clueless about your spiritual identity..

[Guruvani]

 

 

taped mantra is just a physical sound.

 

The sound that comes out your gurus vocal chords are just physical sounds.

His body is a machine.

His vocal chords are simply performing the same function as the tape player.

 

Your "living guru" concept is a farce, because the spirit soul always exists on the spiritual energy and is in actuality unconnected to the body.

 

The shastra gives the example that if you put an iron instrument in fire it will take on the quality of fire of heat and light.

 

Same principle is in effect when any material thing gets used in the service of Krishna. The tape recording of the mantra becomes spiritualized and actually becomes a spiritual sound - not a physical sound.

 

to blaspheme the tape recording of the sound is the same thing as blaspheming the deity that is made of stone or brass.

 

Those who say that the taped form of mantra is material are committing the same offense as saying that the diety is material thing made out of stone or wood.

It's blasphemy.

 

We could say the same thing about the deity.

We could say "it is physical thing made out of stone, it is not spiritual".

 

But, we learn from shastra that the deity is the form of the Lord and that form is spiritual.

When the Holy Name or the mantra takes recorded form it still has the same form as the form of the Holy Name and it is always spiritual.

 

So, please don't blaspheme the Holy Name of the Lord in recorded form because it is non-different than the deity.

 

There are even "gurus" out there blaspheming Sri Nama Prabhu in his form as recorded sound.

 

It is very unfortunate and very offensive and such gurus should stop such blasphemy of Sri Nama Prabhu in his form as recorded sound.

 

It is the same thing as blaspheming the deity as being stone or wood.

[Shakti-Fan]

 

You have just confirmed what I am saying.

Devotees from both systems fall down.

Either they get intiated by tape or in person there are devotees falling down.

Devotees who got intiation in person fall down just as easy as devotees who got initiated by tape.

 

It doesn't matter where or how you get initiated.

If a devotee is completely sincere he will succeed even if he never got any kind of formal diksha.

 

It all comes down to sincerity.

Where or how you get initiated is not the real secret to success.

 

Even devotees that never got formal initiation can succeed where initiated devotees fail.

 

I don't believe any anthing except sincerity.

Rituals and formalities don't really make the difference between success or failure................sincerity does.

 

There is plenty of proof in the history of the movement that formal diksha didn't do any magic on anyone.

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaja once said that all Vaishnavas are gurus.

Devotees are chanting Hare Krishna all over the world and initiating the whole world into the chanting of Hare Krishna.

 

One Vaishnava is just as much guru as the next.

It's not that only Narayana Maharaja or the ISKCON gurus are gurus.

 

All Vaishnavas are gurus and anyone that has ever had any contact with the Krishna consciousness movement has heard the Maha mantra from a Vaishnava - a guru.

 

That is sufficient and that is enough.

 

All these rituals and formalities have become a scam and I for one don't buy into the scam.

 

Narayana Maharaja is not guru any more that any other Vaishnava.

 

According to Sridhar Maharaja all Vaishnavas are guru.

 

I don't see one Vaishnava as guru and the other as not guru.

 

If we don't see all Vaishnavas as guru, then we aren't guru or Vaishnava.

 

Once Srila Sridhar Maharaja gave an explanation of one Bhagavad Gita verse, I don't remember which one, and his godbrother commented that such an understanding would be dangerous if given out to the public at large. But Srila Sridhar Maharaja was of the type that he gave out his truth at any risk for he was a "form breaker not a form maker". Essentially what you have said in this post is an extreme example of the potential result of the danger of speaking such high form breaking truths to those firmly entrenched in a kannistha mentality. A dull minded person will take the axe of the form breaking truths and cut away not only the unessential but the essential for they have no idea of the deep subtleties of the cutting power of such an effulgent blade. Such a realization is very far from them, so they must be held back even though chomping at the bit of demanding further knowledge and such is the standard tact taken by most acaryas. But Srila Sridhar Maharaja took the risk anyway for he knew the power of the truth in the bigger picture over eons of time. It is like an unqualified medical student taking on brain surgery. Such an unqualified imitation surgeon will cut away healthy living tissue as well as the malignancy. For him to take on such brain surgery in his immaturity is a form of imitation to the extreme.

[krsna]

"One should not proudly think that one can understand the transcendental loving

service of the Lord simply by reading books... One must accept a Vaisnava guru

(adau gurv-asrayam), and then by questions and answers one should gradually

learn what pure devotional service to Krsna is. That is called the parampara

system.":pray: :pray: :pray: (Cc. Antya-lila 7.53, purp.)

 

— AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

[suchandra]

 

Guruvani prabhu ... don't get me wrong but reading all your posts from the last few days, you sound like a terribly insecure person ready to go on a tear or something. If that is indeed the state of your mind, you need help prabhu ... the association of sincere devotees.

 

All you've been doing is committing Vaisnava aparadha through these posts, denigrating everyone who disagrees with you, including great vaisnava acaryas like Srila Narayana Maharaja. You're digging your own grave. Not a very wise thing to do.

Just try to understand, very simple, current ISKCON gurus are NOT the highest authority of their new disciples, the GBC is. In fact, ISKCON gurus do not have their own ashram, but function as a sub-authority within the ISKCON ashram. Their authority is subject to the higher authority of the GBC. It is the GBC who has the authority to sanction (sanctify or ordain) that a person is now 'authorized' by the GBC to now initiate devotees in ISKCON. The GBC has the power to withdraw that sanctification and proclaim that a person is no longer authorized. And, just like all other devotees, including their disciples, the gurus themselves are fully under the authority of the GBC and must abide by their rules. Thus, the true authority over all devotees in ISKCON is the GBC. And, further, the 'gurus' only initiate once they have been empowered or authorized by the GBC. Thus, they initiate under the higher authority of the GBC. This menas that they can be defined as rtviks or representatives of the GBC. New devotees become more initiates of ISKCON then they become initiates of their guru. This is proven by the fact that if a guru falls down the GBC act as the ultimate authority and instruct the disciples to remain submissive to their authority while rejecting the authority of their deviated initiating guru.

 

None of this is at all 'traditional' and none of it comes close to the definition of being a 'regular guru'. A regular guru has his own ashram in which he functions as the ultimate single authority. The ISKCON GBC-appointed gurus do not have their own ashram and cannot function as the ultimate authority of even their own disciples, but the GBC remains the ultimate authority. Thus, the current gurus act rather as rtviks of the GBC then they act like regular autonomous gurus.

 

The current GBC appointed gurus are really rtviks, yet, the GBC does not understand this and continues preaching that those who support Prabhupada being the only diksa guru for ISKCON system are devious.

[Guest guest]

 

The sound that comes out your gurus vocal chords are just physical sounds.

His body is a machine.

His vocal chords are simply performing the same function as the tape player.

 

 

Read again:

 

mantra has three elements:

 

lowest level - physical vibration (sound)

middle level - vibration in the ether (thought or consciousness)

deep level - eternal and ever present spiritual reality of the mantra (Krsna's actual presence invoked by the mantra)

 

taped mantra is just a physical sound. it is YOUR consciousness that does or does not take it further. in a typical case of initiation - the disciple has no power to take it further. thus it is a waste of time as no connection to Krsna is made.

-------------------------------

 

 

you speculate:

 

"Those who say that the taped form of mantra is material are committing the same offense as saying that the diety is material thing made out of stone or wood. It's blasphemy."

 

There is not a single shastric verse to support this speculation. Like I said, you have no understanding of what mantra is. Like the Buddhists turning prayer wheels and considering that a "spiritual activity".

[Guruvani]

 

Guruvani prabhu ... don't get me wrong but reading all your posts from the last few days, you sound like a terribly insecure person ready to go on a tear or something. If that is indeed the state of your mind, you need help prabhu ... the association of sincere devotees.

 

All you've been doing is committing Vaisnava aparadha through these posts, denigrating everyone who disagrees with you, including great vaisnava acaryas like Srila Narayana Maharaja. You're digging your own grave. Not a very wise thing to do.

 

Just back off and try not to get too personal and play the boogey man game with me.

When you become siddha then come back and give me a holler.

 

Otherwise, your formula hasn't worked either and you don't need to be condescending as if you have it all going on and mastered your soul.

 

The "living guru" hasn't shown any miracles and a horde of neophyte followers being fanatic all over the world hasn't shown that disciples of the "living guru" are really any better than anyone else.

 

If you can't talk philosophically and debate the issues then don't resort to intimidation and insult, because it doesn't work on me.

 

anyone that has been around these forums for the last few years knows that insulting me and talking down to me doesn't change anything.

 

I have been presenting logical and scientific reason to support my views.

 

If you can't think of something to say besides condescending and talking down from your pedestal, then we don't have much to discuss.

[theist]

This is another one of those debates where arguing for the obvious is a waste of time. It's like trying to explain why the male female relationship is natural in this world and male to male relationships are unnatural. If the explaination takes more than one airing you might as well forget the other party ever understanding it.

 

So the reply to Lowborn is directed really to any newcomer who happens to be listening in.

 

 

 

No, we think that our guru is using a physical body to make contact with us in MOST USEFUL AND EFFICIENT way. Remember? Gurus dont float down from Vaikuntha is a bubble of etherial light. THEY ARE BORN IN PYSICAL BODIES because this is what is REQUIRED. Remember Parampara? We are disciples of LIVING GURUS not disciples of Krsna.

 

Gurus come with a purpose alright and that purpose is to give their VANI. Why do you go to a lecture hall and sit before the guru's feet and ask him relevant questions? Think for crying out loud. The answer is so you can reeive his VANI. VANI is the essence of his presence. That VANI also lives in script form which is a codified form of sound similar to a particular spoken english.

 

When we hear someone speak our brains and minds translate what we have heard into thought which further conveys meaning to the self who is the hearer. The meaning is the essence.

 

When we read what someone has written our brains and minds translate what we have read into thought which further conveys meaning to the self who is the hearer. The meaning is the essence.

 

 

Think, for crying out loud:

 

What is the use of non-embodied gurus if we all have Paramatma in our heart?

 

Duh... Ok Homer, I'll try.

 

Our attention is not fixed inwardly to Paramatma so He manifests as His own representative in the realm of perception that is available to our mundane senses.

 

The important point Homer here does not understand is that having the commentaries of the pure devotee is the same as hearing from that same devotee. The transcendentalists main objective in coming here is to distribute VANI and not to sit down on a big chair.

 

Homer thinks that the pure devotees VANI in his writings dies along with the guru at Physical death. Thus dead guru and his dead books are all now impotent.

 

This misconception is due to Homer's thinking that his guru is his body. It is as if the basic teaching of aham brahmasmi applies to everyone else but not to the guru.

 

This means that those who think like Homer are worshipping a dead guru in their minds because they fail to realize the ETERNAL LIVING VANI.

 

Homer, you need to find a living guru because you sure don't have one yet.

 

 

You have been around for decades and you still dont understand the basics. Is that a PROOF you need a living guru?

 

It's true I am a very slow learner. I am still trying to figure out which is more important the water or the cup it came in. How could we get water without the cup? So the cup must be more important, right Homer?

 

On the other hand water can also come in a plastic bag, or drunk straight from a stream making the cup unnecessary. So I guess the water is the essential thing afterall.

 

Water is the VANI Homer, the cup can't quench your thirst.

[Guruvani]

 

"One should not proudly think that one can understand the transcendental loving

service of the Lord simply by reading books... One must accept a Vaisnava guru

(adau gurv-asrayam), and then by questions and answers one should gradually

learn what pure devotional service to Krsna is. That is called the parampara

system." (Cc. Antya-lila 7.53, purp.)

 

— AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

 

You isolated that quote out of context and obscured the real meaning.

The orginal quote comes from an example of a scholar trying to understand scripture without accepting the commentary of the acharyas.

 

I can't think of a better example than this one of how the words of Srila Prabhupada can be taken out of context to support concepts that actually go against the intended meaning.

[Guest guest]

More Than That Magician

May 22, 2004: Badger, California

Tridandisvami Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja

I offer millions of humble obeisances unto the lotus feet of my diksa-guru, om visnupada Sri Srimad Bhakti Prajnana Kesava Gosvami Maharaja; and the same unto the lotus feet of my siksa-guru, om visnupada Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta Svami Maharaja.

Srila Sanatana Gosvami has written in his Sri Brhat-Bhagavatamrta:

mahat-sangama-mahatmyam

evaitat paramadbhutam

krtartho yena vipro 'sau

sadyo 'bhut tat-svarupavat

["The glory of mahat-sanga is super-astounding. By the influence of that glory, Jana Sarma's life immediately became successful, like that of his Guru, Svarupa. He became a personal friend of Sri Krsna by the association of Svarupa, who was known as Gopa Kumara in this world. That he immediately attained bhagavat-prema demonstrated the immense value of association with a great personality. Just like Svarupa, within an instance that brahmana felt fully gratified." (Brhat-Bhagavatamrta 2.7.14)]

In Devahuti-samvad (the conversation between Srimati Devahuti and Lord Kapila), the Lord said,

satam prasangan mama virya-samvido

bhavanti hrt-karna-rasayanah kathah

taj-josanad asv apavarga-vartmani

sraddha ratir bhaktir anukramisyati

["In the association of pure devotees, discussion of the pastimes and activities of the Supreme Personality of Godhead is very pleasing and satisfying to the ear and the heart. By cultivating such knowledge one gradually becomes advanced on the path of liberation, and thereafter he is freed, and his attraction becomes fixed. Then real devotion and devotional service begin." (Srimad-Bhagavatam 3.25.25)

Gradually, in mahat-sanga, first sraddha (faith in the words of Guru, sadhu and the scriptures) comes, then rati (the preliminary stage of love of God), and then prema-bhakti (pure love) will come. If you are hearing about Krsna under the guidance of any maha-purusa (self-realized soul) and then practicing and performing the nine limbs of bhakti such as sravanam, kirtanam and smaranam, your anarthas, that is, obstacles caused by impurities, will go away and rati will appear. After rati, prema-bhakti will come, and it will develop to madanakya-mahabhava, the special mood in Srimati Radhika that is not even found in Sri Krsna. You are very lucky to be hearing these explanations of Srila Sanatana Gosvami, and the deep meanings of his explanations that I have researched.

Dhruva Maharaja also prayed for mahat-sanga. His bhakti was not very high, for it was not pure in regard to anyabilasita sunyam (freedom from any other desire than the desire to give happiness to Lord Krsna); it was covered with jnana and karma. However, after some time, by the association of a mahat like Sri Narada Muni, Dhruva became a Vaisnava. Sri Narada is a touchstone – whoever he touches will be changed, and that person will not remain impure.

At the time of departure from this world to Vaikuntha, the spiritual planetary system, Dhruva wondered, "Where is my mother?" So he was not a Vrajavasi bhakta or a bhakta like Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami – but he was a bhakta.

If one takes shelter of a maha-purusa, and under the shelter of such a great soul one worships and meditates on Lord Krsna, the Lord will mercifully sprinkle His mercy upon him. All his anarthas will go away and he will become a pure bhakta. If he has worldly desires, Sri Krsna will smash those desires, for He is causelessly merciful.

Maha-purusas are those pure-hearted devotees who have no worldly desires and are not engaged in sense gratification, and who only have the desire to serve Sri Krsna (anukulyena krsnanu silanam). Their meditation and service to Lord Krsna is like an unbroken stream of honey. When we find out that there is a maha-purusa telling hari-katha in any place, we should pray to Krsna, "Please be merciful and send me there. I want to hear with thousands of ears."

You may have a doubt, or you may raise the question: “Why not pray for purusartha (religion which has material benefits, economic development, sense gratification and liberation)?" Srila Sanatana Gosvami has revealed that if bhakti is present, then moksa (liberation) automatically comes as an incidental result. If you eat honey – for taste – automatically sweetness and bodily heat will come as incidental results. Similarly, if one prays for bhakti, then the four purusarthas, svarga (heaven), and also all worldly happiness will come to him. He will be happy in this world and beyond this world – in Goloka Vrndavana. Otherwise he will not be happy. So why worry for the varieties of material happiness?

A brahmana in Kasi Varanasi prayed to Lord Sankara, "I want to give my daughter in marriage, but I have no money. Please give me money." Sankara told him, "You should go to Vrndavana, to meet Srila Sanatana Gosvami. You can ask him to give you some wealth for your daughter's marriage." The brahmana went to Vrndavana, by foot, and he asked the residents about the whereabouts of a person named Sanatana Gosvami. As they all knew him, they pointed out his residence.

At that time Srila Sanatana Gosvami was doing bhajana in Vrndavana, near the Yamuna, at Kaliya-hrda, the former abode of the very poisonous snake named Kaliya. Presently, Kaliya-hrda is far away from the Yamuna, but at that time it was close, and therefore its surrounding area was full of sand.

Srila Sanatana Gosvami wore only a kaupin. He used to go for madhukari (begging door to door for a small amount of prasada.) and would only eat at a time a dry chapati – with no salt. The brahmana arrived at his cottage and told him, "I went to Sankara Mahadeva and he told me to come to Vrndavana to meet you. He told me, "Srila Sanatana Gosvami will give you some wealth to manage your daughter’s marriage."

Srila Sanatana Gosvami replied, "I have nothing. You can see I have nothing but a loincloth." Then he thought, "Oh, Sankara can not tell a lie. He is my bosom friend." He thus told the brahmana, "Go to the Yamuna and remove some of the sand, and there you will find a touchstone. The brahmana went to the Yamuna, removed some sand – and he found a jewel. He became so happy. He touched the touchstone to iron and it turned into gold. He was very, very happy that Sankara had told him to go to Vrndavana, and he was grateful that, "my prayer has been answered by him."

On the way home that brahmana began thinking, "Why has a person like Srila Sanatana Gosvami kept a touchstone in the sand? It has no use there. He must have still more valuable jewels than this." He thus returned to Vrndavana, where Srila Sanatana Gosvami asked him, "Why have you returned?" He replied, "I have returned because I know that you have more valuable jewels then this."

Srila Sanatana Gosvami then told him, "Throw the touchstone in the Yamuna." The brahmana did so with all his power, and then Sanatana Gosvami told him, "Come here. Come here." He gave him the mantra, "Hare Krsna Hare Krsna Krsna Krsna Hare Hare, Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare", and said, "I do not have worldly jewels, but I have transcendental jewels. The jewel of Lord Krsna and Sri Radha will come to you in a very short time, so remain here. Your daughter’s marriage will happen automatically. Stay here and chant Hare Krsna." That brahmana followed his instruction and thus became a very elevated saint.

Where there is harinama, the chanting of the holy names of Sri Radha and Krsna, everything of value in this world and in the heavenly planets, moksa, and after that Goloka Vrndavana, will also be present.

harinama, tuwa aneka svarupa

Yasoda-nandana, ananda-vardhana, nanda-tanaya rasa-kupa

["O Harinama, you possess unlimited forms, such as Yasoda's beloved son, He who increase the bliss of Gokula, the son of Nanda, and the deep well of rasa. (Harinama, Tuwa Aneka Svarupa (verse 1)]

Have strong faith in this. What you cannot receive by your own efforts, services and jobs, will very easily be earned in a second, simply by chanting Hare Krsna and by mahat-sanga; so much money can be earned . I do not do anything for money, but thousands of millions of dollars come to me. I tell the money, "Don’t come. Don’t come", but still it comes. I see so many grhastas and brahmacaris and sannyasis here. Why have you come here to be with me? I am not giving money, or anything like that, so why do you come? There is something special that I am giving. I can perform greater magic than that magician. [*See Endnote] I am Guru of so many magicians. That magician may be able to transfer $5 into $100, but I can transfer it into millions upon millions of dollars.

Sankara, Bhagavan Mahadeva, is near and dear to Lord Krsna. Sometimes he appears as the manifestation of Sri Krsna known as Sadasiva, whose transcendental abode is in Kailash, near Vaikuntha, and sometimes he manifests as Rudra.

Lord Sankara has said:

tulayama lavenapi

na svargam napunar-bhavam

bhagavat-sangi-sangasya

martyanam kim utasisah

["The value of a moment's association with the devotee of the Lord cannot even be compared to the attainment of heavenly planets or liberation from matter, and what to speak of worldly benedictions in the form of material prosperity, which are for those who are meant for death." (Srimad-bhagavatam 1.18.13)]

Mahat sanga, the association of pure, exalted Vaisnavas is very rare – very rare – in this world. Even half a moment with him cannot be compared with the benefits of svarga (heaven), moksa (liberation) or any worldly achievement. It cannot compare with anything lower than Vaikuntha, what to speak of the attainment of an ordinary kingdom. In this world we should pray only for the high class associates of Lord Krsna, like Srila Rupa Gosvami, Sri Svarupa Damodara, Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura, Srila Baladeva Vidyabhusana, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, and like Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja Prabhupada. Your Prahupada changed millions of lives. I often say that if you have come to me, you have come through him, through his teachings and by reading his books. The Iskcon leaders cannot glorify their Guru, because they do not know who he is.

Namaste Sarasvati devi gauravani pracarine – what is the meaning? They do not know the meaning, so they cannot glorify him. (Addressing Syamarani dasi) I think you should publish some books, very soon – one on Jiva-Tattva, and one on the meaning of Gaura-vani, to remove all the doubts regarding these two subject matters.

In the pranam mantra of Your Prabhupada's Guru Maharaja, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura Prabhupada, it is stated "Namaste gauravani sri murtaye". This is the svarupa, or form, of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura. He is the embodiment of gaura-vani The glory of both these acaryas is the same. You cannot imagine their greatness, but in maha-purusa-sanga you can realize it.

Once, the sages Visvamitra and Vasistha were quarrelling. Visvamitra told Vasistha, “You should address me as Brahma-rsi, because I have become an exalted, realized brahmana. Vasistha said, "I will address you as Rajarsi, a saintly ksatriya, because you have come from a royal family." He refused to praise Visvamitra as a Brahma-rsi, because he considered he would become proud, and that pride would not be beneficial for him.

Visvamitra then boasted that his performance of austerities was a great thing – greater than any other achievement. Vasistha disagreed. He insisted that sadhu-sanga was the greatest achievement.

They went to Ananta Sesa-naga, (the great serpent incarnation of the Lord on whose innumerable hoods millions of universes rest) and presented their situation to him. Visvammitra asked him, "Please, you decide if Vasistha is telling the truth or am I? Am I greater than Vasistha or is Vasistha greater than me?"

Lord Ananta replied, "This is a very deep and heavy topic. At present, I am carrying the burden of entire universes upon my hoods. O Visvamitra, I am extremely tired. I want to rest one of my hoods. Please take my burden for a moment, and then I will answer. Please arrange that when I remove my hood, the universe will not move from its position. It should remain unwavering and not fall." Visvamitra said, "Oh, that is a very insignificant task." He then gave the fruit of all his performances of yoga and austerities, but he could not take the burden of Ananta for even a moment. As soon as Ananta began to remove his hood, there were severe earthquakes, hurricanes and other natural disasters.

Ananta then asked Vasistha, "Can you take my burden?" Vasistha replied, "I am giving you the result of only half a moment of the sadhu-sanga that I have attained. If I have had any elevated Vaisnava association, then may the universe remain calm and quiet and unwavering." Then, although Ananta removed his hood from underneath the universe, it remained calmly in its place, hovering in space without moving

Ananta said, "Now, Visvamitra, I have given my answer, and you yourself can judge what it is. Vasistha has given only half a moment's result of sadhu-sanga, and by that I became free from the burden. You could not arrange that for me.”

So, even a fraction of a second of sadhu-sanga may change your entire life and make you happy forever. This is mahat-sanga.

Mahat-sanga is the highest of all kinds of purusartha (material religiosity, economic development, sense gratification and, at the end, the attempt to become one with the Supreme). In fact, it dances on the head of all kinds of purusartha. "O, Bhagavan, I know that when You touched Aghasura, when You entered his mouth and stomach, he left his body and became immortal. Because of Your touch, his dead body did not emit a foul order. Rather its scent was like sandalwood, and all the cowherd boys of Vraja used to play in it as though it were a cave.

It is understood that those who have attended the hari-katha of mahat-sanga have already achieved the results of taking bath in the Ganges and in all the world's other tirthas (holy places). They have performed all kinds of austerities and given all varieties of donations. Moreover, all these fruits can never be compared with a particle of that mahat-sanga. Chant Hare Krsna Hare Krsna Krsna Krsna Hare Hare, Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare with a strong belief in this.

The water touched by the lotus feet of the gopis is so high – even more so than the water of the Ganges. The gopis used to go to the Yamuna to collect water. Not really water – but the love and affection of Krsna. They also used to take bath there. If anyone touches that water and hears the gopis' hari-katha, he becomes outwardly and inwardly pure. Such purification cannot be attained by touching the Ganges water, or the water of any other tirtha.

If you go to the Ganges to take bath and you are hearing hari-katha, only then can you make a comparison. Your heart may be changed at that time. I have seen that the hearts of most people who go to India and visit all the tirthas, such as the Ganges, the Indian Ocean, Sri Rangam in South India, Kanya Kumari and so many other places, are not purified. However, the heart of a person who had only half of a moment of sadhu-sanga will be changed totally, and krsna-bhakti will come to him.

athanaghanghres tava kirti-tirthayor

antar-bahih-snana-vidhuta-papmanam

bhutesv anukrosa-susattva-silinam

syat sangamo 'nugraha esa nas tava

["My dear Lord, Your lotus feet are the cause of all auspicious things and the destroyer of all the contamination of sin. I therefore beg Your Lordship to bless me by the association of Your devotees, who are completely purified by worshiping Your lotus feet and who are so merciful upon the conditioned souls. I think that Your real benediction will be to allow me to associate with such devotees." (Srimad-Bhagavatam 4.24.59)

"The Ganges water is celebrated as being able to eradicate all kinds of sinful reactions. In other words, when a person takes his bath in the Ganges, he becomes freed from all life's contaminations. The Ganges water is celebrated in this way because it emanates from the lotus feet of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Similarly, those who are directly in touch with the lotus feet of the Supreme Personality of Godhead and who are absorbed in the chanting of His glories are freed from all material contamination. Such unalloyed devotees are able to show mercy to the common conditioned soul. Srila Vrndavana dasa Thakura has sung that the devotees of Lord Caitanya are so powerful that each one of them can deliver a universe. In other words, it is the business of devotees to preach the glories of the Lord and deliver all conditioned souls to the platform of suddha-sattva, pure goodness. Here the word su-sattva means suddha-sattva, the transcendental stage beyond material goodness. By his exemplary prayers, Lord Siva teaches us that our best course is to take shelter of Lord Visnu and His Vaisnava devotees. (Srimad-Bhagavatam 4.24.59 purport by Srila Prabhupada)]

Here, Lord Siva glorifies the sadhu, the maha-purusa, who is sarala, meaning very calm and quiet, without any worldly desires. This is one of his symptoms. Lord Siva says, "I pray, O Lord Krsna, please give me mahat-sanga; for by that my whole life will be successful."

In Srimad-Bhagavatam Canto Five, Jada Bharata tells King Rahugana:

rahuganaitat tapasa na yati

na cejyaya nirvapanad grhad va

na cchandasa naiva jalagni-suryair

vina mahat-pada-rajo-'bhisekam

["My dear King Rahugana, unless one has the opportunity to smear his entire body with the dust of the lotus feet of great devotees, one cannot realize the Absolute Truth. One cannot realize the Absolute Truth simply by observing celibacy (brahmacarya), strictly following the rules and regulations of householder life, leaving home as a vanaprastha, accepting sannyasa, or undergoing severe penances in winter by keeping oneself submerged in water or surrounding oneself in summer by fire and the scorching heat of the sun. There are many other processes to understand the Absolute Truth, but the Absolute Truth is only revealed to one who has attained the mercy of a great devotee." (Srimad-Bhagavatam 5.12.12)]

[*Endnote: Before Srila Narayana Maharaja began this lecture, his new doctor-magician-disciple, nicknamed Dr. T., performed a magic trick in front of the 600 devotees present at the Badger hari-katha festival. Dr. T. told the audience that he was about to give Srila Maharaja $100 for his temple construction project in Navadvipa, and he hoped others who had the funds would do the same. He then proceeded to turn a $5 bill into a $100 bill. His shirt had no long sleeves. He first held out his hands to the audience, to show the devotees that he had no bill between his fingers, and he then took a $5 bill from Srila Maharaja and returned to him a $100 bill.]

[Guest guest]

 

Gurus come with a purpose alright and that purpose is to give their VANI. Why do you go to a lecture hall and sit before the guru's feet and ask him relevant questions? Think for crying out loud. The answer is so you can reeive his VANI. VANI is the essence of his presence. That VANI also lives in script form which is a codified form of sound similar to a particular spoken english.

 

One more time: can you ask a disembodied guru questions to clarify the vani? No you cant and the proof is in the mess Iskcon is embroiled in. Thus, such vani from a disembodied guru is of limited value and therefore:

 

THE NEED FOR PARAMPARA ARISES

[Guruvani]

When all else fails bury the discussion in copy and paste of Narayana Maharaja, even though nobody is going to read it.

 

We know where to read the lectures of Narayana Maharaja.

We don't need anyone to copy and paste his library in the topic we are discussing.

If we want to hear his lectures we will order the CDs online.