Is A Physically Present Spiritual Master Required?

[Guruvani]

 

One more time: can you ask a disembodied guru questions to clarify the vani? No you cant and the proof is in the mess Iskcon is embroiled in. Thus, such vani from a disembodied guru is of limited value and therefore:

 

THE NEED FOR PARAMPARA ARISES

 

Srila Prabhupada:

 

Everything I have to say I have said in my books.

 

A such, we don't need to bother him with our stupid childish questions as the the masters and sages of bygone days have already asked any question that is worth asking and the anwers are in the books.

 

When your "living guru" vacates his stool bag, who are you going to consult?

Why is he writing books?

Why does he have a website?

 

If you can only get help from the stool bag manifesation of guru, then why do they publish his lectures on the internet?

[Guest guest]

 

Srila Prabhupada: Everything I have to say I have said in my books.

 

 

He also said:

 

"One should not proudly think that one can understand the transcendental loving service of the Lord simply by reading books... One must accept a Vaisnava guru (adau gurv-asrayam), and then by questions and answers one should gradually learn what pure devotional service to Krsna is. That is called the parampara system." (Cc. Antya-lila 7.53, purp.)

 

yes, he have said everything HE HAD TO SAY in his books and now it is time for the sampradaya to move on.

 

Maybe for you he said enough. But not for others. So be happy and dont try to change the tried and true system that has been in place for millenia.

[Guest guest]

 

Srila Sanatana Gosvami has written in his Sri Brhat-Bhagavatamrta:

mahat-sangama-mahatmyam

evaitat paramadbhutam

krtartho yena vipro 'sau

sadyo 'bhut tat-svarupavat

["The glory of mahat-sanga is super-astounding. By the influence of that glory, Jana Sarma's life immediately became successful, like that of his Guru, Svarupa. He became a personal friend of Sri Krsna by the association of Svarupa, who was known as Gopa Kumara in this world. That he immediately attained bhagavat-prema demonstrated the immense value of association with a great personality. Just like Svarupa, within an instance that brahmana felt fully gratified." (Brhat-Bhagavatamrta 2.7.14)]

In Devahuti-samvad (the conversation between Srimati Devahuti and Lord Kapila), the Lord said,

satam prasangan mama virya-samvido

bhavanti hrt-karna-rasayanah kathah

taj-josanad asv apavarga-vartmani

sraddha ratir bhaktir anukramisyati

["In the association of pure devotees, discussion of the pastimes and activities of the Supreme Personality of Godhead is very pleasing and satisfying to the ear and the heart. By cultivating such knowledge one gradually becomes advanced on the path of liberation, and thereafter he is freed, and his attraction becomes fixed. Then real devotion and devotional service begin." (Srimad-Bhagavatam 3.25.25)

Gradually, in mahat-sanga, first sraddha (faith in the words of Guru, sadhu and the scriptures) comes, then rati (the preliminary stage of love of God), and then prema-bhakti (pure love) will come. If you are hearing about Krsna under the guidance of any maha-purusa (self-realized soul) and then practicing and performing the nine limbs of bhakti such as sravanam, kirtanam and smaranam, your anarthas, that is, obstacles caused by impurities, will go away and rati will appear. After rati, prema-bhakti will come, and it will develop to madanakya-mahabhava, the special mood in Srimati Radhika that is not even found in Sri Krsna. You are very lucky to be hearing these explanations of Srila Sanatana Gosvami, and the deep meanings of his explanations that I have researched.

Dhruva Maharaja also prayed for mahat-sanga. His bhakti was not very high, for it was not pure in regard to anyabilasita sunyam (freedom from any other desire than the desire to give happiness to Lord Krsna); it was covered with jnana and karma. However, after some time, by the association of a mahat like Sri Narada Muni, Dhruva became a Vaisnava. Sri Narada is a touchstone – whoever he touches will be changed, and that person will not remain impure.

At the time of departure from this world to Vaikuntha, the spiritual planetary system, Dhruva wondered, "Where is my mother?" So he was not a Vrajavasi bhakta or a bhakta like Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami – but he was a bhakta.

If one takes shelter of a maha-purusa, and under the shelter of such a great soul one worships and meditates on Lord Krsna, the Lord will mercifully sprinkle His mercy upon him. All his anarthas will go away and he will become a pure bhakta. If he has worldly desires, Sri Krsna will smash those desires, for He is causelessly merciful.

Maha-purusas are those pure-hearted devotees who have no worldly desires and are not engaged in sense gratification, and who only have the desire to serve Sri Krsna (anukulyena krsnanu silanam). Their meditation and service to Lord Krsna is like an unbroken stream of honey. When we find out that there is a maha-purusa telling hari-katha in any place, we should pray to Krsna, "Please be merciful and send me there. I want to hear with thousands of ears."

 

When all else fails deal with the ideas given here.

[Guruvani]

 

So be happy and dont try to change the tried and true system that has been in place for millenia.

 

Well, be happy with your stool bag "living guru", but as far as ISKCON goes it has been TRIED AND FAILED, not "tried and true" so it's time to get out of the stone age and adapt parampara in a way that doesn't make the parampara a scandalous desecration and free-for-all fiasco of false gurus that are cheating innocent newcomers out of the same feeling that the disciples of Srila Prabhupada relish.

 

Your "tried and true" system has never been tried outside of India.

Progress can't be made if we insist on living with sterotyped concepts of parampara that just turn the parampara into a despised and disgusting list of fakers, cheaters and rogues.

[Guruvani]

 

When all else fails deal with the ideas given here.

 

It didn't do any magic on you, so we might as well just stick to Srila Prabhupada and his books.

 

You are living proof that the "living guru" is no better than the dead gurus.

 

So, you can give up the masquerade.

 

You aren't fooling anyone but yourself.

[Guest guest]

 

Well, be happy with your stool bag "living guru", but as far as ISKCON goes it has been TRIED AND FAILED, not "tried and true" so it's time to get out of the stone age and adapt parampara in a way that doesn't make the parampara a scandalous desecration and free-for-all fiasco of false gurus that are cheating innocent newcomers out of the same feeling that the disciples of Srila Prabhupada relish.

 

It is only the blind fanaticism and primitive concepts of guru-tattva pervading ISKCON that made these scandals possible. People like you are still dangerous fanatics. You simply propose to counteract one half-baked idea with another. The idea of omnipotent, omniscient super-guru independent of his own guru, sadhus and shastra is bogus. It is a creation of ISKCON vaishya mythmakers for their own control and profit. Replacing that with another myth of eternal and perfect vani and ritvik initiations is even worse.

[Guruvani]

 

It is only the blind fanaticism and primitive concepts of guru-tattva pervading ISKCON that made these scandals possible. People like you are still dangerous fanatics. You simply propose to counteract one half-baked idea with another. The idea of omnipotent, omniscient super-guru independent of his own guru, sadhus and shastra is bogus. It is a creation of ISKCON vaishya mythmakers for their own control and profit. Replacing that with another myth of eternal and perfect vani and ritvik initiations is even worse.

Well, the horde of neophyte fanatics who follow the "living guru" and make nuisance, disturbance and agitation all around the Krishna consciousness movement are all the proof I need that the "living guru" propaganda is a hoax and a scam.

 

What better proof is there that the "living guru" ideaology is no better than the "dead guru" system than his horde of neophyte fanatics who are all living testimonies that the "living guru" has no special advantage to the "dead gurus".

 

They haunt the internet in various anonymous forms spouting off the bigotry and blasphemy that they are famous for all over the world.

 

What it all boils down to is like playground politics of "I am better than you because I have a living guru".

I say....... bullshit... grow up and stop acting like kids on the playground.

 

They boast their superiorty relentlessly based on their "living guru" that they see for a few minutes each year at the Navadvip Parikrama, as if that few minutes of sanga does some magic or miracle they nobody else can see.

[Shakti-Fan]

 

 

Your "tried and true" system has never been tried outside of India.

Progress can't be made if we insist on living with sterotyped concepts of parampara that just turn the parampara into a despised and disgusting list of fakers, cheaters and rogues.

 

You can come to the point where, such a "tried and true" system that has never been tried outside of India is really taking bhakti out of India and trying to make devotees out of those born into Mleecha families. Perhaps if the parampara system of Krsna Consciousness cannot function in the West, then neither can Krsna Consciousnes per se either? If there's no difference from a person who is formally initiated and one who just chants without formal connection then maybe there's no difference between one who chants and one who doesn't? Who is in charge here and who draws the line? No guru, no acarya, no GBC then no one. This was the first criticism of Prabhupada by some of his godbothers, that he had made Mleechas in devotional dress parrot the mahamantra and philosophy but at heart they were still Mleechas. Sometimes Western "devotees" become hopeless and come to the same conclusion about themselves and their breatheren. I sense that underneath your so-called Rtvikism lies some very inconoclastic sentiments that are truly dissembling ideas. Sometimes we are told that the guru is also not his body. Sometimes we are told that someone engaged cent percent in Krsna bhakti has a body that is already spiritualized like iron in a fire. To blabber on that the guru has "stool body" is to take the risk of stepping on the toes of those seers of the Truth that have given the second concept, such as Srila Krsna das Kaviraja and others. Somehow I thought the idea was to worship their Lotus Feet?

[Guest guest]

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaja once said that all Vaishnavas are gurus.

Devotees are chanting Hare Krishna all over the world and initiating the whole world into the chanting of Hare Krishna.

 

One Vaishnava is just as much guru as the next.

It's not that only Narayana Maharaja or the ISKCON gurus are gurus.

 

All Vaishnavas are gurus and anyone that has ever had any contact with the Krishna consciousness movement has heard the Maha mantra from a Vaishnava - a guru.

 

That is sufficient and that is enough.

 

All these rituals and formalities have become a scam and I for one don't buy into the scam.

 

Narayana Maharaja is not guru any more that any other Vaishnava.

 

According to Sridhar Maharaja all Vaishnavas are guru.

 

I don't see one Vaishnava as guru and the other as not guru.

 

If we don't see all Vaishnavas as guru, then we aren't guru or Vaishnava.

 

Do you see Srila Prabhupada in the same way? You say: "Narayana Maharaja is not guru any more that any other Vaishnava". How about Srila Prabhupada? Do you extend your guru theories to your own guru? If not, you are just fooling yourself.

[suchandra]

So this is how people in general see present ISKCON, "nasty things going on after Prabhupada has left". Even if that "nasty things going on" would stop, still, people would only believe when there's also wonderful activities, not just talk.

 

 

from: http://www.kheper.net/topics/gurus/listing.html

<table summary="tabulation of gurus" border="5" cellpadding="2" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td>Guru or Master</td> <td>Organisation</td> <td>Teaching</td> <td>Abuse?</td> <td>Category</td> <td>Short summary, influence and present status</td> </tr> </tbody><tbody><tr> <td>Adi Da

(Da Free John)</td> <td>Laughing Man Institute, Adidam</td> <td>Eastern</td> <td>Criticism, Problems with Adi Da, The Cult of Adi-Da?, re: Adi Da</td> <td><center>(to add)</center></td> <td>A controversial guru, former disciple of Muktananda. Has changed his name many times. Some devotees have been traumatised by him, others benefitted. Claims to be first the avatar of this age and for that matter the only 7th Stage Realiser of all time. His material is very well written. I would interpret him as having powerful experiences of enlightenment but whose personality/vehicle is not strong enough to cope with the downflux of higher light. A lot of lower Affective power, ego inflation and intermediate zone perspective. Large following in the West - chiefly in America. Large literary production.</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Sri Aurobindo</td> <td>Sri Aurobindo Society</td> <td>Hindu</td> <td>None</td> <td><center>(to add)</center></td> <td>A visionary philosopher, a poet, a meta-enlightened being, an avatar, attained the Manifest Absolute, and worked towards establishing it on Earth. After his death his work was carried on by his spiritual co-worker Mirra Alfassa ("The Mother"). Some limited influence among certain intellectuals, a small but dedicated following worldwide</td> </tr> <tr> <td>H. B. Blavatsky</td> <td>Theosophy</td> <td>Occult</td> <td>None</td> <td>Avidya?/Astral</td> <td>Almost single-handedly initiated the Western occult/esoteric revival. Not an enlightened being, but still enormously significant. </td> </tr> <tr> <td>Andrew Cohen</td> <td>No formal organisation</td> <td>Integral movement</td> <td>Extensive psychological manipulation and financial exploitation of followers, under the guise of "breaking down the ego". See What Enlightenment? blog for more.</td> <td>IZ-a but may be only sporadic</td> <td>Small following in America, mostly on Ken Wilber's recommendation. His magazine <cite>What Is Enlightenment?</cite> is distributed widely</td> </tr> <tr> </tr><tr> <td>Aleister Crowley</td> <td>O.T.O.</td> <td>Occult</td> <td>No</td> <td>IZ-a Subtle</td> <td>Occultist, prankster, hedonist, poet, writer, considered an avatar of the new aeon by his followers; heavy astral consciousness, the single most influential figure in 20th century Hermeticism; influenced Wicca and (indirectly) L.R. Hubbard.</td> </tr> <tr> <td>G. I Gurdjieff</td> <td>"The Work", "Fouth Way" etc</td> <td>Occult</td> <td>Guru: A master manipulator

Organisation: No</td> <td>IZ-a Gross?</td> <td>Tremendous physical and psychic consciousness, power and will, not enlightened, a manipulator, his ideas have been subtly influential throughout much of western esotericism, even reappearing in New Age form.</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Lord Hamsah Manarah. </td> <td>Aumist religion ['Aumisme'] </td> <td>New Age</td> <td>need to research</td> <td>IZ-a/IZ-b subtle</td> <td>Claimed to be the reincarnation of Christ, Buddha, Napoleon and Pythagoras. Teaches he is to save humanity from self-destruction. Such inflated claims indicate he has been fooled by impressions from the from the Affective worlds or Intermediate Zone. About 40 monks/nuns and about 100 lay followers, 1,000 worldwide.</td> </tr> <tr> </tr><tr> <td>L. Ron Hubbard;</td> <td>Scientology</td> <td>a little of everything!</td> <td>abuses galore!</td> <td>Avidya</td> <td>A former science fiction writer (I once read one of his early stories - quite clever!), he realised the best way to make a million was start his own religion. The greatest con-artist of our age. Thanks to courting movie stars who are given preferential treatment and in return provide oodles of good publicity, The Church of Scientology is as powerful as ever</td> </tr> <tr> <td>C. J. Jung</td> <td>Analytical Psychology</td> <td>Psychology</td> <td>None</td> <td>IZ-a Subtle?</td> <td>A brilliant analyst of human nature, student of mythic symbols, insightful but not enlightened, treated the women in his life badly. Enormous influence outside psychology, one of the great figures of the 20th century </td> </tr> <tr> <td>Prem Rawat; formerly Guru Maharaji</td> <td>Divine Light Mission, Elan Vital</td> <td>"The Knowledge" is from Sant Mat</td> <td>Avidya</td> <td>Made millions from his devotees from the 60s onwards, even his own Boeing. I have been told by someone who seems to me respectable that his followers still resort to thuggery and so warned against criticising him publically (I cannot confirm this). Criticism on Wikipedia</td> <td>Started out as the ice-cream eating boy guru hailed as an avatar or "The Lord Of The Universe"; basically an average Joe, his status as a master is luducrious. I heard him talk when he came to Melbourne. In no way an enlightened being. Formerly big following in the West</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Mahareshi Mahesh Yogi</td> <td>TM</td> <td>Hindu</td> <td>The movement sells fake mantras and spiritual techniques at progressively very high prices.</td> <td>Avidya</td> <td>Basically took advantage of his connections with the Beatles to set himself up in the West. Too much money element for my liking, but has not abused his position sexually. Not an enlightened being. T.M. is a big organisation, that is making lots and lots of money. Their so-called "Sidha program" involves contracting certain buttock muscles allowing you to "bounce". The Tibetans did that ages ago (Read Alexandra David Neel's "Magic and Mystery in Tibet"). The practice can be harmful for one's psychological well-being, probably also physically harmful.</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Shri Mataji Nirmala Devi Shri Mataji </td> <td>Sahaja yoga</td> <td>Hindu</td> <td>Yes</td> <td>IZ-a Subtle?</td> <td>Seems to me she started out as a basically decent even if self-deluded lady, got caught up in the guru power trip. Seriosly inflated ego resulting in her (& her followers) belief that she is the avatar of this age. Not an enlightened being. Possibly traces of Intermediate zone to draw in the followers, although when I heard her talk she seemed like an ordinary person. Some following in the West</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Meher Baba</td> <td>--</td> <td>Hindu/Sufi</td> <td>None</td> <td><center>(to add)</center></td> <td>An interesting one. Clearly sincere, despite certain ridiculous themes in his teachings. Never abused his position. I would say a genuine avatar, but his personality was not strong enough to hold the Force, hence erratic behaviour. Decent following world-wide</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Swami Muktananda </td> <td>Siddha Yoga</td> <td>Hindu</td> <td>Guru: Seems to have fallen in later years - sex with female devotees under guise of "Tantric Initiation". Also there was physical violence (or at least threats thereof) against those who spoke out

Organisation: Followuing his death the movement schismed; the main faction following the sister, another the brother; need to research more</td> <td>IZ-a or IZ-b</td> <td>A sincere and decent teacher, although it seems in later years he fell prey to the guru power trip, started taking sexual advantage of young female followers (all in the name of "Tantric initiation"). Because of this, not an enlightened being, but nevertheless attained a high spiritual status (read his bio Play of Consciousness). Most certainly Intermediate zone Siddha Yoga still going in the West , despite it's incredibly amaturish approach to yoga and it's lack of enlightened leadership. A church for middle class people who have gone beyond exoteric religion but are not able to stand by their own light.</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet</td> <td>Aeon Centre of Cosmology</td> <td>Integral Yoga</td> <td>None towards followers</td> <td>IZ-a</td> <td>Inflated claims of avatarhood, and asserts that her son is a reincarnation of Sri Aurobindo. Very small following, a number of weighty books and several websites</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Yoshikazu Okada</td> <td>Mahikari</td> <td>Japanese</td> <td>None? (need to research)</td> <td><center>(to add)</center></td> <td>Japanese nationalistic religious movement - through initiation you are able to give healing light from your hands. The founder has been accused of association in Japenese war crimes. Small following in Japan and in the West</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Osho Rajneesh</td> <td>Orange People</td> <td>Syncretic</td> <td>Guru: Yes; Fled the US with over 100 federal charges, leaving behind 84 Rolls Royces.

Organisation: Under Ma Sheela things were pretty nasty; the following now is non-harmful</td> <td>IZ-b</td> <td>Basically a mixture of sincerity and fake. Presented himself as the guru for the rich. There is no denying his affection for his followers, nor his love of all the money, rolls royces, and (from his Western female followers) sexual favours his office gave him. Not a true enlightened being, a good example of an Intermediate zone guru. Tremendously influential in the New Age movement, mainly because of the appeal to the infantile western attitude of being spiritual but keeping your materialistic ego and selfish attitude at the same time. His 'Zorba-Rajneesh' discoteks were all over Europe at one period; Zorba is the symbol of the ultimate worldly male chauvinist</td> </tr> <tr> <td>A.C. Bhaktivedanta Prabupad</td> <td>International Society for Krishna Consciousness ("Hare Krishnas"</td> <td>Hindu</td> <td>Guru: Prabupad himself was a decent guy

Organisation: Some serious abuses, including sexual abuse of children - apparently these concerns are now being addressed</td> <td><center>(to add)</center></td> <td>A sincere and decent teacher, never bused his position in any way. His teachings however are nothing but fundamentalist Vaishvanism. Not an enlightened being. Hare Krishna sect remains a viable "New Religion" (albeit a fundamentalistic one). Respected among hippy/alternative people because of strong Vegetarian stance. After Prabhupad's death there were some nasty goings on in the leadership of his organsiation. At least one of his personally appointed successors was chaged with racketeering and conspiracy to murder. </td> </tr> <tr> <td>Swami Rajeshwaranand Giriji Maharaj </td> <td>need to research</td> <td>Hindu</td> <td>was arrested in September '95 as a party to the murder of his lover's husband. The 26-year old Manoj Girothra, husband of Savita who was having an affair with the 'godman', was murdered on December 3rd, 1994, some two months after his marriage.

Two professional hitmen had been hired by the 'godman'</td> <td><center>(to add)</center></td> <td> A 'popular godman' in India, but clearly from activities lacking in spiritual consciousness. Large following in India and abroad, </td> </tr> <tr> </tr><tr> <td>Bala Sai Baba</td> <td>need to research</td> <td>Hindu</td> <td>need to research</td> <td><center>(to add)</center></td> <td>The Palghat (Kerala) born Bala Sai Baba (the Child Sai Baba), now 35 years old. He claims to be the real Sai avatar, has set up an ashram in Kurnool district of Andhra Pradesh and resembles Sathya Sai Baba trait for trait.</td> </tr> <tr> </tr><tr> <td>Sathya Sai Baba</td> <td>Sai organisation</td> <td>Hindu</td> <td>Guru: Serious allegations of sexual abuse

Organisation: The main organisation is either covering up the abuses or is in denial; ex-devotees who have tried to bring this to light have been defamed by slanderous devotees - one example; another example, - My experience with all this .</td> <td>IZ-a Subtle</td> <td>A real controversial fellow. People have had many psychic expereinces, and some of the vibhuti materialisation on photos etc may be authentic (like the weeping virgin mary statues, probably a similar principle), but most of the so-called materialisations (of baubles for devotees) are sleight of hand. I have been to his ashram. He has been called everything from con-artist to paedophile and homosexual (and even anti-christ and devil) to avatar. Faked his birthdate to be considered an avatar. I would say gets his power from the Affective worlds. Huge following in India (many millions), where his high status has prevented legal inquiry into the allegations against him. Somewheat smaller following in the West</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Swami Shyam</td> <td>Advaita</td> <td>Hindu</td> <td>accused of seducing the wives of his followers (Robert Priddy knows followers, and informs me that some agree it is so. website</td> <td><center>(to add)</center></td> <td>a current advaitin guru, at Kulu in the Himalayas. Popular with Westerners (esp. Scandinavians)</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Sri Swami Sivananda</td> <td>The Divine Life Society</td> <td>Hindu</td> <td>None (need to research)</td> <td><center>(to add)</center></td> <td>Seems to be basically a decent guy; Small following in India and the West</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche</td> <td>none as such?</td> <td>Tibetan Buddhist</td> <td>Sex with female devotees, emotionally distant</td> <td>IZ-a</td> <td>The original "crazy wizdom" adept in the West, alcoholic, Well respected and widely read in the alternative movement</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Ken Wilber</td> <td>Integral Institute</td> <td>Integral</td> <td>Minor cultic tendencies, not abusive; my critique.</td> <td>IZ-a</td> <td>Extremely charismatic, very influential due to his voluminous literary output. One of the main intellectuals in the New Age/ New Paradigm movement today.</td> </tr> </tbody></table>

 

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[Guest guest]

 

They boast their superiorty relentlessly based on their "living guru" that they see for a few minutes each year at the Navadvip Parikrama, as if that few minutes of sanga does some magic or miracle they nobody else can see.

 

Isn't that the system you claim Prabhupada introduced? No need for direct sanga, no need for direct inquiry - just read the books and worship me?

 

If anybody has a superiority complex based on their guru it is Prabhupada's disciples like yourself. "We have the only real guru. Everybody else is a fake or at best just another Vaishnava" - that is their mantra.

[Guruvani]

 

Sometimes we are told that the guru is also not his body. Sometimes we are told that someone engaged cent percent in Krsna bhakti has a body that is already spiritualized like iron in a fire.

 

Why is it that only bags of stool and urine can be spiritualized in service and tape recordings cannot?

 

You seem to be saying that bags of stool and urine are somehow superior to other forms of matter.

 

Why do you so favor bags of stool and urine over other forms of matter?

Can't gold and silver and other things also be spiritualized in service?

 

Why only stool bags?

[Shakti-Fan]

 

 

What it all boils down to is like playground politics of "I am better than you because I have a living guru".

I say....... bullshit... grow up and stop acting like kids on the playground.

 

 

And you don't think that is what some of the general public thought of the Hare Krsna's in the 1970's? Again you are attacking the entire parampara system because of the excesses of some neophytes. Such a reaction is just the flip side of the same coin. This means that you are in the exact same boat only you are having a neophyte reaction to a neophyte form of behavior and reacting in an oppositional form. It's called self deception and is being played out right before our eyes in your posts. Tat te nukampam susamiksamo, the log is in our own eye. The environment is our friend; Every wave is a favorable wave. If a devotee doesn't come from this place in their heart then they are behaving as a rank neophyte. If we can't feel it then at least we can accept it conceptually. If we can't do at least that then we are sentenced to spout off nonsense in the name of our guru or gurus.

[Shakti-Fan]

 

 

Why only stool bags?

 

That's tantamount to seeing the diety as made of wood or stone. From the material eye the diety DOES appear to be made of wood or stone. But we are advised not to think in that way. Similarly the Western physicians who attended Srila Prabhupada after his first heart attack in America definately saw that he had an ordinary body made of flesh and blood. But his loving disciples even worship his shoes and other clothing that even touched his body. So when we talk of guru we must not focus on those who pretend to be guru but rather the real gurus. We are associating with all these thoughts in our mind. Why not associate with the real guru by remembering him or them? Why focus on the negative. Why become an obsessive fault finder?

[Guruvani]

 

Do you see Srila Prabhupada in the same way? You say: "Narayana Maharaja is not guru any more that any other Vaishnava". How about Srila Prabhupada? Do you extend your guru theories to your own guru? If not, you are just fooling yourself.

Everything and everyone is guru in some way or another, even the dog in the street.

Chanakya Pandit has shown how to see guru in so many creatures.

 

But, we need guru in the full-fledged form that can truly give us complete knowledge of how to go Back to Krishna's home, back to Godhead.

 

That guru can come in a living form or in book form.

That is what I believe.

 

Sure, Narayana Maharaja is guru.

But, I really don't think he is any more "living" than Srila Prabhupada and that Srila Prabhupada is still "living" in sound.

 

Accept whichever guru suits you, but don't try and tell the Krishna consciousness movement that Srila Prabhupada isn't a living guru and that he does not live in teachings and his books, tapes etcs.

 

And you shouldn't blaspheme Sri Nama Prabhu or Sri Gayatri in their forms in in the sound produced on tape or audio file.

 

That is an offense.

No enlightened guru would blaspheme Sri Hari Nama in any form he accepts.

 

Krishna can incarnate in any form he chooses and it's not up to you to dictate what form that can be.

 

If Krishna wants to enter the heart of a person he can do that through tape recording as much as any other sound.

[Guest guest]

 

Sound emitted from stool bags is not particularly special.

 

Only a total materialist thinks the mantra is simply a vibration of the air as produced by a tape player or vocal cords. I gave you all 3 levels of mantra reality, why do you think my understanding stops at the first level?

 

The physical sound of the mantra is not that important. It is there just to focus the consciousness on the mantra vibration in the ether - to bring out the eternal reality of the Name. Gayatri is not normally spoken in an audible way. The exception is initiation. The physical sound of the mantra without associated consciousness will not open the door to the eternal reality of the Name.

 

We dont believe in mantra wheels or mechanical reproductions of the mantra. We believe in consciousness reaching to the eternal reality of the Name.

[Guruvani]

 

The physical sound of the mantra is not that important. It is there just to focus the consciousness on the mantra vibration in the ether - to bring out the eternal reality of the Name. Gayatri is not normally spoken in an audible way. The exception is initiation. The physical sound of the mantra without associated consciousness will not open the door to the eternal reality of the Name.

Ok, so you are confirming that you are saying Prabhupada cheated all the disciples he initiated by tape?

You say the tape diksha was a fraud.

Well, I knew you thought like that already and I know who you learned it from................the "living guru".

 

But, you can't seperate the tape sound from the time Srila Prabhupada was "alive" and from the time after he left the body.

 

According to your theory, you are accusing Srila Prabhupada of being a fool and a cheater for giving diksha by tape recording.

 

If the tape sound can have potency at one time it can have potency at another.

Whether Srila Prabhupada is dead or alive really doesn't make any difference concerning tape recorded mantras.

 

Srila Prabhupada's passing didn't just magically turn the recorded mantras into dead mantras, especially if we have NO injunction from Srila Prabhupada that the tape cannot be used after his departure.

 

So, your theory says that Srila Prabhupada was a cheater and a hoaxer, that your "living guru" can give a better mantra through his stool bag than Srila Prabhupada can give through tape recording.

 

...the sound on the tape is associated with consciousness.

It was created by the vibration of Srila Prabhupada and his conscious will to record the mantra on tape.

 

The tape has the consciousness of Srila Prabhupada behind it's existence.

 

So, your theory is bad and hereby proven as faulty.

 

The initiation tapes were created by Srila Prabhupada, not by a computer generated sound vibration.

 

Without Srila Prabhupada behind the tape, the tapes would never have existed.

 

Srila Prabhupada never issued any injunction that the tapes cannot be used after his passing.

 

If he was concerned about that he would have made sure to say something.

 

The authority to use the initiation tapes was never withdrawn.

Srila Prabhupada put them into use and never recalled any of the gayatri tapes.

They are still viable.

[Guest guest]

 

... the sound on the tape is associated with consciousness.

It was created by the vibration of Srila Prabhupada and his conscious will to record the mantra on tape.

 

The tape has the consciousness of Srila Prabhupada behind it's existence.

 

So, your theory is bad and hereby proven as faulty.

 

Whatever turns your prayer wheel, buddha...

 

The Gayatri tape is the same crutch as the "We all fell from Goloka" story. Maybe of some use at a time of need, but without actual substance. Sugar pill. You know "We all fell from Goloka" story is a crutch, now it's time for another discovery - the Gayatri tape...

[Guruvani]

 

Whatever turns your prayer wheel, buddha...

 

The Gayatri tape is the same crutch as the "We all fell from Goloka" story. Maybe of some use at a time of need, but without actual substance. Sugar pill. You know "We all fell from Goloka" story is a crutch, now it's time for another discovery - the Gayatri tape...

 

Now you gotta go putting down the the buddhists in Tibet.

If you were even a fraction as sincere, simple and humble as the buddhists of Tibet you would be amazing.

 

Unfortunately, you are habituated to criticizing Srila Prabhupada, blaspheming Sri Name Prabhu's tape incarnation and thinking that a stool bag is the "living guru".

Hang in there girl, there is still hope for you.

Just take shelter of the Holy Name, click your heels together and say "there is no place like home, there is no place like home".

 

After all, we aren't in Kansas anymore Toto....

[Gaurasundara]

 

The fire sacrifice is not the initiation. My sense has always been that the initiation is the mutual acceptance between guru and sisya. The fire yagna is a way of solemnizing that commitment. I have friends whose initiation did not include a fire sacrifice.

I like the way you put this. It is similar to the bon between a man and a woman who love each other and desire to get married. The decision has already been made and they are very much in love with each other, and they are making all preparations to live with and love each other, but it is only until they undergo a formal wedding ceremony that their commitment becomes solemnised and solidified. And in public too.

 

I would think that the same principles are behind spiritual initiation. The relationship between a guru and disciple is one of love - the guru promises to deliver the disciple and the disciple promises to abide by the guru's instructions - the decision has already been made, but the commitment is solidified and solemnised by the yajna.

 

Beyond that, I can't understand the arguments of those who attempt to put down the process of diksha by some fanciful arguments. The conclusion is that Mahaprabhu <i>expects</i> it of anyone following in His tradition: <i>diksa-kale kore atma samarpana...</i>

[theist]

Madhya 15.106 - Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu replied, “Whoever chants the holy name of Krishna just once is worshipable and is the topmost human being.

 

Madhya 15.107 - “Simply by chanting the holy name of Krishna once, a person is relieved from all the reactions of a sinful life. One can complete the nine processes of devotional service simply by chanting the holy name.

 

Madhya 15.108 - “One does not have to undergo initiation or execute the activities required before initiation. One simply has to vibrate the holy name with his lips. Thus even a man in the lowest class [candala] can be delivered.

 

Madhya 15.109 - “By chanting the holy name of the Lord, one dissolves his entanglement in material activities. After this, one becomes very much attracted to Krishna, and thus dormant love for Krishna is awakened.

 

Madhya 15.110 - “‘The holy name of Lord Krishna is an attractive feature for many saintly, liberal people. It is the annihilator of all sinful reactions and is so powerful that, save for the dumb who cannot chant it, it is readily available to everyone, including the lowest type of man, the candala. The holy name of Krishna is the controller of the opulence of liberation, and it is identical with Krishna. When a person simply chants the holy name with his tongue, immediate effects are produced. Chanting the holy name does not depend on initiation, pious activities or the purascarya regulative principles generally observed before initiation. The holy name does not wait for any of these activities. It is self- sufficient.’”

 

Madhya 15.111 - Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu then finally advised, “One who is chanting the Hare Krishna mantra is understood to be a Vaishnava; therefore you should offer all respects to him.”

[theist]

 

Beyond that, I can't understand the arguments of those who attempt to put down the process of diksha by some fanciful arguments. The conclusion is that Mahaprabhu expects it of anyone following in His tradition: diksa-kale kore atma samarpana...

 

TRANSLATION CC 15.108

“One does not have to undergo initiation or execute the activities required before initiation. One simply has to vibrate the holy name with his lips. Thus even a man in the lowest class [candala] can be delivered.

 

PURPORT

Srila Jiva Gosvami explains diksha in his Bhakti-sandarbha (283):

divyam jnanam yato dadyat kuryat papasya sankshayam

tasmat diksheti sa prokta desikais tattva-kovidaih

 

“Diksha is the process by which one can awaken his transcendental knowledge and vanquish all reactions caused by sinful activity. A person expert in the study of the revealed scriptures knows this process as diksha.” [...]

 

 

Madhya 15.107 - “Simply by chanting the holy name of Krishna once, a person is relieved from all the reactions of a sinful life. One can complete the nine processes of devotional service simply by chanting the holy name.[/QUOTE]

 

Chanting the Holy Name does not require formal initiation. Diksha is the process that awakens transcendental knowledge. One can complete the whole process of devotional service simply by chanting the Holy Name.

 

Harer nama harer nama harer nama eva kevalam....

[muralidhar_das]

Do the scriptures mention any devotees who attained Prema Bhakti without having had any "face to face" instruction from advanced Vaishnavas?

 

I can't think of any.

[theist]

No comment on my previous post Murlidhar? Anyway what is the value of a face. The value is in the Holy Name.

[muralidhar_das]

 

what is the value of a face. The value is in the Holy Name.

Amazing.

 

In the inner city I saw a shop called "sex-o-rama".

 

The people there are probably saying the name of the Lord constantly.

 

They may pick up the phone and say "this is Sex-o-Rama"

 

No need for a Guru, they have God's association directly in the form of His Divine Name.

 

 

No comment on my previous post Murlidhar?

 

I have Bhaktirasamrtasindhu open on the desk in front of me, opened at the page where it discusses diksa.

 

Should I spend time typing what is written there?

 

Who cares about what Srila Rupa Goswami says?

 

According to Sri Rupa, the type of bhakti known as "vaidhi-bhakti" is bhakti that is based upon the statements of the scriptures. Vaidhi Bhakti, properly performed, can take you to Vaikuntha or Dvaraka Leela of Krishna, but only raganuga bhakti can take you to the Vraja Leela.

 

Where do you get this Raganuga Bhakti? Can you get it from reading books. Hmmm... the books say you cannot get it from books!