Letter to Dinesh

[sudhaya]

 

Letter to: Dinesh

--

Tittenhurst

31 October, 1969

69-10-31

 

My Dear Dinesh,

Please accept my blessings. I beg to thank you for your letter dated October 21, 1969 along with a contribution of $25. I have already acknowledged receipt of your new record. *Regarding the disciplic succession coming from Arjuna, disciplic succession does not always mean that one has to be initiated officially. <font color="red"> Disciplic succession means to accept the disciplic conclusion. </font color> Arjuna was a disciple of Krishna and Brahma was also a disciple of Krishna. Thus there is no disagreement between the conclusions of Brahma and Arjuna. Vyasadeva is in the disciplic succession of Brahma. The teachings to Arjuna was recorded by Vyasadeva verbatim. So according to the axiomatic truth, things equal to one another are equal to each other. We are not exactly directly from Vyasadeva, but our Gurudeva is a representative of Vyasadeva. Because Vyasadeva and Arjuna are of equal status, being students of Krishna, therefore we are in the disciplic succession of Arjuna. Things equal to the same thing are equal to one another.

 

Regarding your second question about Sanjaya, he was a student of Vyasadeva, and by the mercy of Vyasadeva he was able to receive the message of the conversation of Krishna-Arjuna. Thus Sanjaya was able to speak to Dhrtarastra about the conversation on the Battlefield of Kuruksetra. **Regarding your final question, the marginal potency means internal potency. But because the marginal potency sometimes comes within the external position, therefore, in spite of its being internal potency it is turned to marginal potency. This is stated in Visnu Purana: Any potency of Krishna is spiritual energy, but due to varieties of actions a section is called marginal potency or external potency. Please offer my blessings to your good wife, Krishna Devi, and daughter, Visnu Arati. I hope this will meet you all in good health.

 

Your ever well-wisher,

A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami

--------

 

* Theist Prabhuji has that as his signature, after reading it more and more, you can derive so many meaning from it, but looking at it, to my understanding it means basically to accept it, thats it.

 

** /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[gHari]

It seems that Dinesh asked a question. Srila Prabhupada concludes:<blockquote>"Because Vyasadeva and Arjuna are of equal status, being students of Krishna, therefore we are in the disciplic succession of Arjuna. Things equal to the same thing are equal to one another."</blockquote>

It seems that Dinesh pondered whether we are in the same disciplic succession as Arjuna, since noone in our lineage was officially initiated by Arjuna or his disciples.

 

Prabhupada says that we don't need to be officially initiated by Arjuna to consider ourselves in the same disciplic succession as him, since we accept the same knowledge from Lord Brahma that was presented to Arjuna by Sri Krsna. Things equal to the same thing are themselves equal.

 

That's what it says to me, anyway. I think Theist sees it as something more global - that official initiation is not always necessary, provided one accepts the disciplic conclusion.

 

[theist]

More global? To me Prabhupada's statement is not at all mysterious, nor do I see a better way to word it. Very straight forward.

 

 

[gHari]

Leave off the phrase "Regarding the disciplic succession coming from Arjuna". That's a better way to word it - no ambiguity. Has he worded it another way anywhere else? That would be interesting.

 

I keep wondering why he would say it here? It makes no sense here, when talking about whether we are in the disciplic succession of Arjuna, since he is definitely "initiated officially". Therefore he is clearly not necessarily speaking generally about 'official initiation'. Why would he - he is initiated officially into the disciplic succession coming down from Lord Brahma? Why mention no need for official initiation unless he is referencing his lack of official initiation into the Arjuna line?

 

It could well mean that if you are initiated into the Brahma line thereby accepting its disciplic conclusions, then you can be accepted to be in the disciplic succession of Arjuna even though you weren't officially sworn into that lineage.

 

There must be a place where there is no grey. There must be many in fact, to support such an important critical statement/sentiment. I suspect there are; complete with examples like My Sweet George, who by any other name would smell as sweet.

 

[Avinash]

Leave off the phrase "Regarding the disciplic succession coming from Arjuna". That's a better way to word it - no ambiguity.

 

Sri Prabhupada was replying to a letter written by Dinesh. It seems that Dinesh had asked about disciplic succession coming from Arjuna. This is why Sri Prabhupada started the answer with the phrase "Regarding the disciplic succession coming from Arjuna".

[Avinash]

Consider the statement "Disciplic succession means to accept the disciplic conclusion."

 

What exactly is the meaning of the phrase "disciplic conclusion"? The answer is there in the next two sentences: "Arjuna was a disciple of Krishna and Brahma was also a disciple of Krishna. Thus there is no disagreement between the conclusions of Brahma and Arjuna."

 

Thus "disciplic conclusion" means the conclusion of a disciple. The conclusion of the seer Vyasdeva is the same as that of Arjuna. This means, according to Sri Prabhupada, that if one is in the disciplic succession of one of these, he can be considered in the disciplic succession of the other.

In general, if we are in the disciplic succession of one person, then we can say that we are also in the disciplic succession of another person provided the beliefs of the two persons are the same.

 

Now, here is a question. Let us assume that we are officially not in the disciplic succession of anybody in the world. But we believe in the conclusion of another devotee. Can we consider ourselves in his disciplic succession?

[sudhaya]

 

For the simple explanation, without interpreting in your own way, a devotee I know is having problems with 'The Ritvik Theory', and says Prabhupada is still alive, so you can initiation from his devotees, so I asked him, does that mean Prabhupada disciples are not living?

 

Round and round I go, wait until I BANG my head.

 

Interesting question, I've no brainpower left, trying to convince this guy his barking up the wrong tree. Anyway, I won't let him go, Nitai!

[gHari]

October 1976

Interviewer: What is the procedure of the movement? Do you initiate yourself all the disciples or do your other disciples also do that?

PrabhupAda: Well, initiation or no initiation, first thing is knowledge. [break] ...knowledge. Initiation is formality. Just like you go to a school for knowledge, and admission is formality. That is not very important thing.

 

Letter 1974

You have asked "How serious would it be for me if I should miss the golden opportunity to become your initiated disciple?" You should know that the value of accepting a bona fide spiritual master is more than we can calculate. It is not a mere formality. Of course everyone is encouraged to chant Hare Krishna, but until one gives up sinful activities and becomes determined to serve Krishna through His representative then the firm fixing up of devotional service will not take hold, and there is every chance that one will fall prey to all sorts of material desires and have to come back again in the next life--and one cannot guarantee that he will be born in the form of life he may desire.

 

Letter July 1976 - Off-Topic But Cool

Concerning the proposed meeting with the Pope, I have no objection cancelling or delaying the journey to Tehran if the meeting with the Pope is assured. That is important. But if it is simply a courtesy visit, then what is the use? If he is prepared to discuss seriously how religion is becoming degraded all over the world, then it is worthwhile. Religion is now being taken as a formality. People generally have no real conception of God. Ours is a tangible connection with God. We know who is God and how to serve Him. Everything is fact.

 

[gHari]

From Srila Prabhupada Lilamrita:<blockquote>A little more than a month later, Abhay was again anticipating an imminent meeting with SrIla BhaktisiddhAnta, this time at Allahabad. Abhay had only recently returned from VRndAvana to his work at Prayag Pharmacy when the devotees at the Allahabad Gaudiya Math informed him of the good news. They had secured land and funds for constructing a building, the SrI RUpa Gaudiya Math, and SrIla BhaktisiddhAnta would be coming on November 21 to preside over the ceremony for the laying of the cornerstone. Sir William Malcolm Haily, governor of the United Provinces, would be the respected guest and, in a grand ceremony, would lay the foundation stone in the presence of SrIla BhaktisiddhAnta. When Abhay learned that there would also be an initiation ceremony, he asked if he could be initiated. AtulAnanda, the maTha's president, assured Abhay that he would introduce him to SrIla BhaktisiddhAnta SarasvatI.

 

At home, Abhay discussed his initiation plans with his wife. She had no objection, but she did not want to take initiation herself. They were already worshiping the Deity at home and offering their food to the Deity. They believed in God and were living peacefully.

 

But for Abhay that was not enough. Although he would not force his wife, he knew that he must be initiated by a pure devotee. Avoiding sinful life, living piously--these things were necessary and good, but in themselves they did not constitute spiritual life and could not satisfy the yearning of the soul. Life's ultimate goal and the absolute necessity of the self was love of KRSNa. That love of KRSNa his father had already inculcated within him, and now he had to take the next step. His father would have been pleased to see him do it.

 

What he had learned from his father was now being solidified by someone capable of guiding all the fallen souls of the world to transcendental love of God. Abhay knew he should go forward and take complete shelter in the instructions of his spiritual master. And the scriptures enjoined, "He who is desirous of knowing the Absolute Truth must take shelter of a spiritual master who is in disciplic succession and who is fixed in KRSNa consciousness." Even Lord Caitanya, who was KRSNa Himself, had accepted a spiritual master, and only after initiation did He manifest the full symptoms of ecstatic love of KRSNa while chanting the holy name.

 

As for the ritual initiation he had received at age twelve from a family priest, Abhay had never taken it very seriously. It had been a religious formality. But a guru was not a mere officiating ritualistic priest; so Abhay had rejected the idea that he already had a guru. He had never received instructions from him in bhakti, and his family guru had not linked him, through disciplic succession, with KRSNa. But by taking initiation from BhaktisiddhAnta SarasvatI he would be linked with KRSNa. BhaktisiddhAnta, son of Bhaktivinoda ThAkura and disciple of Gaurakizora dAsa BAbAjI, was the guru in the twelfth disciplic generation from Lord Caitanya. He was the foremost Vedic scholar of the age, the expert VaiSNava who could guide one back to Godhead. He was empowered by his predecessors to work for the highest welfare by giving everyone KRSNa consciousness, the remedy for all sufferings. Abhay felt that he had already accepted SrIla BhaktisiddhAnta as his spiritual master and that from their very first meeting he had already received his orders. Now if SrIla BhaktisiddhAnta would accept him as his disciple, the relationship would be confirmed.

 

He was coming so soon after Abhay had seen and heard him in VRndAvana! That was how KRSNa acted, through His representative. It was as if his spiritual master, in coming to where Abhay had his family and business, was coming to draw him further into spiritual life. Without Abhay's having attempted to bring it about, his relationship with SrIla BhaktisiddhAnta was deepening. Now SrIla BhaktisiddhAnta was coming to him, as if by a higher arrangement.

 

On the day of the ceremony, BhaktisiddhAnta SarasvatI met with his disciples at the Allahabad Gaudiya Math on South Mallaca Street. While he was speaking hari-kathA and taking questions, AtulAnanda BrahmacArI took the opportunity to present several devotees, Abhay amongst them, as candidates for initiation. The Allahabad devotees were proud of Mr. De, who regularly attended the maTha in the evening, and led bhajanas, listened to the teachings and spoke them himself, and often brought respectable guests. He had contributed money and had induced his business colleagues also to do so. With folded palms, Abhay looked up humbly at his spiritual master. He and SrIla BhaktisiddhAnta were now face to face, and SrIla BhaktisiddhAnta recognized him and was visibly pleased to see him. He already knew him. "Yes," he said, exchanging looks with Abhay, "he likes to hear. He does not go away. I have marked him. I will accept him as my disciple."

 

As the moment and the words became impressed into his being, Abhay was in ecstasy. AtulAnanda was pleasantly surprised that his Gurudeva was already in approval of Mr. De. Other disciples in the room were also pleased to witness SrIla BhaktisiddhAnta SarasvatI's immediate acceptance of Mr. De as a good listener. Some of them wondered when or where SrIla BhaktisiddhAnta had arrived at such an estimation of the young pharmacist.

 

At the initiation, SrIla BhaktisiddhAnta SarasvatI was seated on a vyAsAsana, and the room was filled with guests and members of the Gaudiya Math. Those to be initiated sat around a small mound of earth, where one of SrIla BhaktisiddhAnta SarasvatI's sannyAsIs prepared a fire and offered grains and fruits into the flames, while everyone chanted mantras for purification. Abhay's sister and brother were present, but not his wife.

 

Abhay basked in the presence of his Gurudeva. "Yes, he likes to hear"--the words of his spiritual master and his glance of recognition had remained with Abhay. Abhay would continue pleasing his spiritual master by hearing well. "Then," he thought, "I will be able to speak well." The Vedic literature described nine processes of devotional service, the first of which was zravaNam, hearing about KRSNa; then came kIrtanam, chanting about and glorifying Him. By sitting patiently and hearing at Kosi, he had pleased KRSNa's representative, and when KRSNa's representative was pleased, KRSNa was pleased. SrIla BhaktisiddhAnta SarasvatI had not praised him for donating money to the maTha and hadn't advised him to forsake his family and business and travel with him, nor had he asked Abhay to perform great austerities, like the yogIs who mortify their bodies with fasts and difficult vows. But "He likes to hear," he had said. "I have marked him." Abhay thought about it and, again, listened carefully as his spiritual master conducted the initiation.

 

Finally, SrIla BhaktisiddhAnta called for Abhay to come forward and receive the hari-nAma initiation by accepting his beads. After offering prostrated obeisances, Abhay extended his right hand and accepted the strand of japa beads from the hand of his spiritual master. At the same time, he also received the sacred brahminical thread, signifying second initiation. Usually, SrIla BhaktisiddhAnta gave the first initiation, harinAma, and only after some time, when he was satisfied with the progress of the disciple, would he give the second initiation. But he offered Abhay both initiations at the same time. Now Abhay was a full-fledged disciple, a brAhmaNa, who could perform sacrifices, such as this fire yajJa for initiation; he could worship the Deity in the temple and would be expected to discourse widely. SrIla BhaktisiddhAnta added aravinda, "lotus," to his name; now he was Abhay Charanaravinda.

 

After SrIla BhaktisiddhAnta SarasvatI left Allahabad for Calcutta, Abhay keenly felt the responsibility of working on behalf of his spiritual master. At the initiation SrIla BhaktisiddhAnta had instructed Abhay to study RUpa GosvAmI's Bhakti-rasAmRta-sindhu, which outlined the loving exchanges between KRSNa and His devotees and explained how a devotee can advance in spiritual life. Bhakti-rasAmRta-sindhu was a "lawbook" for devotional service, and Abhay would study it carefully. He was glad to increase his visits to the Allahabad center and to bring new people. Even at his first meeting with his spiritual master he had received the instruction to preach the mission of Lord Caitanya, and now he began steadily and carefully considering how to do so. Preaching was a responsibility at least as binding as that of home and business. Even in his home he wanted to engage as far as possible in preaching. He discussed with his wife about his plans for inviting people into their home, offering them prasAdam, and holding discussions about KRSNa. She didn't share his enthusiasm.

 

SrIla PrabhupAda: My wife was a devotee of KRSNa, but she had some other idea. Her idea was just to worship the Deity at home and live peacefully. My idea was preaching.</blockquote>

 

 

[gHari]

Avinash, we were considering whether the letter answered that question you posed:<blockquote>Now, here is a question. Let us assume that we are officially not in the disciplic succession of anybody in the world. But we believe in the conclusion of another devotee. Can we consider ourselves in his disciplic succession? </blockquote>

So far we seem to have one "YES!", one "Maybe....", and one "Hmmmm?".

 

Care to upgrade your "Hmmmm?"?

 

[anadi]

What is the meaning of bhagavat parampara?

 

The bhagavat parampara is the line of transmiting the transcendental sound which is not different from the the transcendental object.

 

Who can utter the transcendental name?

Only a pure devotee.

Is there any evidence?

Yes it is:The four features of the sound.

 

Para-vak is the transcendent sound. Para means highest or farthest, and in this connection it indicates that sound which is beyond the perception of the senses.

Para-vak is also known as "rava-shabda" - an unvibratory condition of sound beyond the reach of mind and intelligence (avyakta), only to be realized by great souls, parama-jnanis. On the stage of para-vak there is no distinction between the object and the sound. The sound contains within it all the qualities of the object. In terms of the universal cosmology, vaikhari, madhyama and pashyanti correspond respectively to bhuh, bhuvah, and svah. The para-shabda ultimately corresponds to the Lord's tri-pada-vibhuti.

 

Within the pashyanti-vak exists the nature's iccha-shakti, or the power of will.

Within the madhyama-vak exists the nature's jnana-shakti , or the power of knowledge.

And within the vaikhari-vak exists the nature's kriya-shakti, or power of action.

 

 

The bhagavat parampara is the line transmiting the transcendental sound .

Is there any evidence?

 

Madya lila 17.48-49

 

keha yadi tanra mukhe sune krsna-nama

tanra mukhe ana sune tanra mukhe ana

 

sabe 'krsna' 'hari' bali' nace, kande, hase

paramparaya 'vaisnava' ha-ila sarva dese

 

When someone heard the chanting of the holy name from the mouth of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu , and

someone else heard this chanting from that second person, and

someone again heard this chanting from the third person,

everyone in all countries became a Vaisnava through such disciplic succession.

Thus everyone chanted the holy name of Krsna and Hari, and they danced, cried and smiled.

 

 

What is the meaning? Shall we speculate on it?

No. We should accept the authoritative purport.

 

Purport by SB Svami Prabhupada

The transcendental power or potency of the Hare Krsna maha-mantra is herein explained. First, the holy name is vibrated by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. When someone hears from Him directly, he is purified. When another person hears from that person, he also is purified. In this way the purification process is advanced among pure devotees.Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and no one can claim His potency. Nonetheless, if one is a pure devotee, hundreds and thousands of men can be purified BY HIS VIBRATION.

 

 

Many heard the transcendental sound from the pure devotees of the Lord, but where is their purification?

Where is the yAvatI zaktiH (imense power) of nAmnaH'sya hareh (of the holy Name of the Lord)?

Destroyed by inumberable offeneses against the pure devotees.

Srila Narotama dAsa ThAkura says in his Ei BAra KrunA Kara

hari stAne aparAdha tAre harinAma

tomA sthAne aparAdhe nahika eDAna

 

Oh vaiSNava GosAi, offenses committed at lotus feet of Sri Hari are absolved by harinAma. But for offenses against you there is absolutely no means of deliverance!

 

The purification process is not a passive process. Is there any garanty for the process?

Yes.

sAdhu saNge kRSNa bhaktye SraddhA yadi haya

bhakti phala prema haya saMsAra yAya kzaya

 

When a devotee obtains faith in the association of softhearted and pure vaiSNavas he very quickly obtains prema and the saMsAra is distroyed.

[gHari]

 

http://www.mandala.com.au/books/sixgoswamis.pdf

 

As given on this CHAKRA page: http://chakra.org/discussions/booksmovies.html

 

 

 

[theist]

Why make such a simple thing so hard? Lilam-rita I don't accept as scripture no matter if it agrees or disagrees. Prabhupada clearly says his initiation occured when he first spoke to Bhaktisiddahnta and was then formally initiated some 11? yrs. later.

 

If someone was officailly initiated in a Mayavadi line but adopted the conclusion of a Vaisnava and lived his life as a Vaisnava, without undergoing any further ceremonies, would he be a mayavadi or vaisnava?

[gHari]

I seem so skeptical, but this is a really big issue and I must be absolutely sure if I am going to hang my hat on it. I don't feel 100%. It is not that I disagree with the conclusion; it's just that I can't get the conclusion 100% from that source.

 

It seems it wasn't obvious to Avinash either. Maybe we both need to reflect on it some more. I know my brain did stall a few times during the processing of the logic.

 

I keep thinking: "Regarding pants, my favorite colour is beige". Yet actually my favorite colour is blue, but for pants I like beige best. The phrase "Regarding pants" qualifies the statement following and it is no longer necessarily universally true.

 

Both sentences are true:<blockquote>"Regarding pants, my favorite colour is beige."

 

"My favorite colour is blue."</blockquote>

Actually it's syama. And if someone says "I heard gHari say 'Yadda, yadda, my favorite colour is beige', so let's paint his blue house beige for him as a surprise", it will not be a good thing.

 

 

 

[anadi]

Srila Rupa Gosvami says:

Second limb of bhakti is "Sri Guru dikSa zikSa adi"

Hey, in the begining (adi) go to guru, take dikSa and zikSa.

 

Maybe some persons are special and have already taken dikSa in another life, or come directly from Goloka Vrindavan, lile SBV Svami Prabhupada, and don't take dikSa?! /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

 

Srila Rupa Gosvami says in Sri UpadeSamRta that there must be a difference in terms of diksa, even in our relation with the bhaktas.

 

krsneti yasya giri taM manasAdriyeta

dIKSAsti cet praNatibhiS ca bhajantam iSam

SUSRuAayA bhajana-vijNam ananyam anya-

NindAdi Sunya-hRdam Ipsita-saNga-labdhyA

 

Adriyeta one should respect; manas. within the mind;

Tam that person (a neophyte devotee); yasya giri in whose speech; iti thus (appears); kRSNa one name of KRSNa;

 

praNatibhiH one should offer praNAma;

ca also;

bhajantam to an intermediate devotee who, (being endowed with the correct understanding of reality and illusion, performs bhajana in accordance with the VaiSNava conventions);

Isam to his Istadeva (the Deity of the dikSa mantra);

cet if; asti -he has;

dikSA initiation (from a qualified guru);

 

SuSRuSayA one should do all types of service

bhajana vijNam to a self-realised, expert mahA-bhAgavata

(VaiSNava who performs bhajana of Sri RAdhA-KRSNa's eightfold daily pastimes by rendering service mentally;

ananyam who is one pointed, exclusive devotee of Sri KRSNa;

anya nindAdi Sunya hRdam and whose heart is free from faults (due to his undeviating absorption in KRSNa),

labdhyA having obtained;

Ipsita saNga the association for which one hankers (the association of a topmost devotee whose heart is established in the particular mood of service to Sri RAdhA-KRSNa for which one aspires and who is affectionately disposed towards oneself).

[theist]

It helps my to try and not over think sometimes. I have ADD and so this is very hard. Hard to be simple. The conclusion, the siddhanta, is the essence of the sampradaya is it not?

 

"Amongst logicans I am the conclusive truth"

[ancient_paztriot]

"I have ADD and so this is very hard."

 

I read this and BURST OUT laughing! Came unexpected. /images/graemlins/frown.gif Quite a surprise there Theist! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

The rest of your message did not seem serious to me.

 

But really, I like laughing. Tell me more!

[theist]

Some nuerotransmitter unbalance. Seems like they are all out of whack. What happens is my brain gets immediately interested in something and then before I can complete whatever it is (book. project etc.) I get interested in something else and forget to finish what I previously started. Constant stream of thoughts. feels like sitting in a car with the engine racing at a high rate but never getting anywhere.

 

Concerning learning I want to know everything RIGHT NOW but haven't the ability to concentrate on the process of learning before starting another one.

 

Typical 'jack of all trades master of none' syndrom. Calamus root is an herb that really helps alot. Without it I find myself reading 3 or 4 books at once and usually not finishing any of them.

 

It's a weird trip inside my head. /images/graemlins/confused.gif /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

 

It must be my karma for trying to get my whole school on LSD in the sixties.

[Guest guest]

Why make such a simple thing so hard? Lilam-rita I don't accept as scripture no matter if it agrees or disagrees. Prabhupada clearly says his initiation occured when he first spoke to Bhaktisiddahnta and was then formally initiated some 11? yrs. later.

...so both acceptation and formal initiation are important, otherwise why srila prabhupada has done them? he gave teachings, and he gave initiation also to all his disciples with the exception only of sriman george harrison.. and maybe we do not know everything

 

If someone was officailly initiated in a Mayavadi line but adopted the conclusion of a Vaisnava and lived his life as a Vaisnava, without undergoing any further ceremonies, would he be a mayavadi or vaisnava?

...who lives a vaishnava life is eager to receive teachings and corrections from a pure vaishnava, so, if he's not in the north pole, he naturally accepts siksa from a vaishnava guru, and the guru, together with the teachings, gives also harinama initiation then diksa. Everything very natural and harmonic. Mayavadi initiation is meant to initiate and inspire the disciple in the quest of oneness with nirguna brahman, so, for a vaishnava it means nothing.. or a false step done in the past

[Avinash]

There is observation and there is interpretation. We make observations and then we interprete them. The problem happens when we mistake interpretation for observation. Very often it happens that we observe something, we interprete it and then report the interpretation as observation. It is not that we intentionally indulge in such kind of dishonesty. It is just that we ourselves do not realize that we are mixing the two.

Reading of Sri Prabhupada's statements is an observation. What meaning we derive of those statements is an interpretation. I want to try my best to avoid my own bias when making the interpretation. This is why I am reading Sri Prabhupada's statements in detail.

[gHari]

You gonna paint my house beige or what?

 

[Avinash]

What is your house color right now?

[Avinash]

Well, initiation or no initiation, first thing is knowledge. [break] ...knowledge. Initiation is formality. Just like you go to a school for knowledge, and admission is formality. That is not very important thing.

 

...

 

Of course everyone is encouraged to chant Hare Krishna, but until one gives up sinful activities and becomes determined to serve Krishna through His representative then the firm fixing up of devotional service will not take hold, and there is every chance that one will fall prey to all sorts of material desires and have to come back again in the next life--and one cannot guarantee that he will be born in the form of life he may desire.

 

These statements show that Sri Prabhupada considered getting knowledge as far more important than knowledge. He even considered initiation as of no use if one does not get the proper knowledge. But it does not mean that he considered initiation as of no use. At the same time, it also does not mean that he considered initiation as mandatory. The above statements themselves may mean either of the two. Therefore, we have to refer to some other statements by Sri Prabhupada or we have to refer to what he himself did in order to know what he believed in. He took initiation 11 yrs after meeting his spiritual master. But the important thing is that he did take initiation.

What could be the reason that he took formal initiation even though he had got the knowledge?

[Avinash]

Consider the following three: -

 

1. No formal initiation and no knowledge.

 

2. Formal initiation but no knowledge.

 

3. Proper knowledge but no formal initiation.

 

4. Formal initiation with proper knowledge.

 

It seems that Sri Prabhupada considered #2 as bad as #1. What did he prefer between #3 and #4? From his statements in which he has called initiation as formality, it seems that he considered getting knowledge as far far more important than getting formally initiated. But since he himself got initiated formally, it seems that he considered #4 as at least slightly more important than #3, though he did not see too much difference between the two.

[Guest guest]

"Regarding pants, my favorite colour is beige." I then suggested that we caannot deduce from the previous sentence that my favorite colour is beige.

 

"Regarding the disciplic succession coming from Arjuna, my favorite colour is beige". I was suggesting that possibly it is equally inappropriate to not tread lightly after that clause "Regarding Arjuna stuff" in the Dinesh letter.