hari-nama-diksa

[sudhaya]

 

Hare Krsna

 

I have a devotee of KRSNA coming from India to my house, to perform a Katha in my sisters house, he will come for a while to visit, I have no idea about if he is in Iskcon, or what Sampradaya he belongs to yet, but can somebody take Harinama-diksa from a devotee, even though you might not accept him as such as your guru? Please tell me all you know, as this is serious business for me, hare krsna.

[livingentity]

stems from unclear and incomplete info that seems to be rampant these days.

 

A diksa-guru is a pure devotee, empowered to conduct ritual brahminical initiation, and accept disciples - thus becoming their eternal spiritual master.

 

"Diksa (often called "2nd initiation") is not the same as Hari-Nama "initiation" - in which the student is ritually given the Hare Krishna maha-mantra, beads, and a spiritual name, by a chosen guru. Hari-Nama (often called "1st initiation") is actually a kind of "introductory" rite of acceptance into the Krishna Consciousness movement. At this time, the student intends to fully surrender to that guru as his/her spiritual master."

 

Actual diksa initiation is the ritual investing of certain applicable brahminical gayatri-mantras , intended to help deepen and expand the student's growth and experience of Krishna consciousness. Further, the initiating guru accepts the recipient - in their entirety* - as his or her own worshipful disciple. The disciple fully surrenders to, and accepts the guru as his/her eternal spiritual master, and "as good as God," because the diksa guru - Lord Krishna's pure devotee and empowered representative - can take the disciple directly back to Godhead.

 

* "in their entirety includes everything, including the disciple's karmic "account." It is at this time that the devotee's karma may be absorbed by the spiritual master, giving the devotee a "fresh beginning." The actual word used is khadati which means: "(to) eat, gnaw, chew, devour." While the karmic "slate" may be wiped clean at this time, the disciple may still continue to experience some effects from the previous karma - much as the blades of a fan continue to spin for a little time after the plug is pulled.

 

It must be understood that one should never take diksa with a focus of their intention on this "karmic cleansing." To do so is to offend the true nature of diksa as well as the spiritual master. Such karmic amilioration is completely at the merciful choice of the spiritual master and Lord Krsna.*

 

Why would you even consider taking inititation from someone you know nothing about? You don't know his philosophy. Also, any bona fide guru would want to get to know you also?

 

Do not commit spiritual suicide.

 

 

 

[stonehearted]

Why would you even consider taking initiation from someone about whom you know absolutely nothing? What would be the point? What would anyone gain? This is not some silly game, and Krishna consciousness is not about joining clubs or getting some sort of rank or collecting gurus as a sort of fashion. If You're convinced that this person can connect you with Krishna and help you grow in Krishna consciousness, and that you can advance by following his instructions, then cultivate a relationship with him and see where it goes. Otherwise, offer your respect and cultivate such sincerity that Krishna will arrange for you to meet sad-guru.

[sudhaya]

 

Hare Krsna.

 

could it be possible to have only 1st initiation by this person, and then later have 2nd initiation by somebody else?

 

Maybe as you said I am getting ahead of myself, I shall listen to his words, very carefully, I think that would please him the most, as I read in an another thread, with the example of Srila Prabhupada and his Guru Maharaja.

[Guest guest]

gHari's post went with a few that were moved, maybe he will repost it

[sudhaya]

 

Hare Krsna.

 

I hope he will post, I want positive advice,

not scarin me half to death /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Dervish]

There are two ways one can accept a guru for 1st initiation, and then accept a different guru for 2nd initiation. The first way is if your harinama guru leaves his body. The second is if your harinama guru assumes asuric qualities; Sri Krsna Bhajanamrta by Srila Narahari Sarkara Thakur says more about that. Read about all pure devotees throughout history, from Satya yuga to the present day.

 

But what is better than this? Being prepared. Babhru prabhu is correct, initiation is not a cheap thing. You are not getting initiated purely to get a Krishna name, and perform some ritual. You are searching for Sri Guru. The very same Guru sung about in the Sri Gurvastakam and Sri Guru Vandana.

 

Read these texts, know what it means to have a bonefide guru, one who is pure devotee of Sri Sri Radha Govinda; Sri Sri Gaura Nitai, then when you meet them humbly approach for shelter. Pray sincerely for a pure devotee to be your guru and Krsna will arrange.

[sudhaya]

 

You are not getting initiated purely to get a Krishna name, and perform some ritual. You are searching for Sri Guru. The very same Guru sung about in the Sri Gurvastakam and Sri Guru Vandana.

--

 

Thats all I needed to hear, anything more would be a bonus.

 

Ps. I do take advice from people, but negative advice, not sit well with me, I am sorry if I caused offence. I have grown up with negative things all my life, so I do get angry, I am sorry LE. -

 

 

[gHari]

I thought I already initiated you as Govinda Ram Ram das. Almost every time I would see Govindaram I would remember the mahamantra and how sweet the "Ram Ram" part is. You will always be Ram Ram to me; in fact I can't even spell your new name.

 

Just a few nights ago on PBS I saw Baba Ram dass's movie called Fierce Grace about how he was stroked and paralyzed down his right side. There was lots of mahamantra chanting, and Krishna das sang. I realized how very very very fortunate I was to have an ISKCON devotee present me with Srila Prabhupada's Bhagavad-gita As It Is only days after Baba Ram dass's book suggested I hang out with the Gita. There was absolutely no comparison between what I saw on the TV and what I see at Ratha Yatra. It must be Caitanya or it just ain't gold.

 

I would start practicing my japa because this visitor may be there to learn from you. Trust Lord Nityananda. What a beautiful name, the way it sounds: Nityananda Ram Ram. Govinda Ram Ram, I know you are dying to preach. Japa is preaching, the ultimate logic, the ultimate proof. You will do fine meeting this devotee of Krishna from India. You may be somewhat inexperienced and shy but your message, Prabhupada's message is the ultimate truth for this age. Just think of all the songs and lectures you have collected on your computer for him. You can change his life.

 

If you aren't near an ISKCON temple, I would suggest getting the Srila Prabhupada japa sound bytes from the net to accompany you as you chant. Then you'll really hear "Ram Ram Ram" Hare Hare. That is Prabhupada's favorite part too, Ram Ram.

 

gHari

[sudhaya]

 

LOL, Just for you prabhuji, I will revert back to my Govindaram nick.

 

I will think of Lord Nityananda, as you said.

 

Actually when somebodys says for me to do this, I am most happy, I have no idea what to ask or say, I will just say 'hare krsna' and then go from there, about the preaching, yes I am dying to preach, leave you with wise words from a GREAT devotee..

 

example is better than precept.

[gHari]

 

That sounds like a Theist-ism.

 

[stonehearted]

I'm sorry if you took my repsonse as negative. I was trying to share what initiation is. I would hope that's a positive contribution to your understanding.

[livingentity]

I think he is talking about my advice to wait and not jump into things with someone he does not know.

 

Whatever....

[Govindaram]

 

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

 

I very much value your advice, I still have a e-mail which you sent me about ..example is better than precept.-

[stonehearted]

To understand the gravity of the relationship between guru and disciple, you may want to get your hands on a copy of Sri Guru and His Grace, by B. R. Sridhar Maharaja.

[Guest guest]

I would suggest madhya lila of ch ch, I forget what chapter, but it is the description of Iswara Puri's relationship with Madhavendra Puri. There is nothing heavier, IMHO, concerning the gravity of the commitment between guru and disciple. hariobol, mahak

[Guest guest]

Haribol

 

Srila Prabhupada is doing everything on behalf of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur. He is never independant of his Guru Maharaja's desire. We may say, "I am a servant of Sri Krsna", but is this our line, is this our parampara? It may well be adhira, if not pretense. Parampara is dasa dasa anudasa, service to the parampara itself, there is no independance. Mistaken ideas in this regard causes one who fails to understand "on behalf of", prone to think that he is direct link to the Supreme Lord for everyone, thus such capricious and arbitrary action occurs, such as the sad chain of events we see in our history, especially mine. Abuse of authority comes when one falsely claims to be guru without ever being disciple. A true disciple NEVER is independant from Gurudeva, no matter how advanced he may be. To directly witness Srila Prabhupada's attitude in this regard, I recommend that all try to hear his classes delivered in 1969 and 1973 on the occasion of the departure of his guru-maharaja.

 

I have always approached "Sri Rasa-Lila" chapter of the Krsna Book with caution. I never thought I was qualified to hear, lest I misunderstand. So I fall on my face with tears in my eyes that I am included in this pastime by appreciation of talks between Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and Srila Ramananda Raya. I am overwhelmed by the description of the relationship between Sri Madhavendra Puri and Sri Isvara Puri. I am never left out in the cold. I approach Gauranga-lila through the mercy of the Six Goswamis, who can be seen through the poetry of Krsnadasa and Srila Narottamadasa Thakur, whose sentiments are sung without omission by Srila Bhaktivinode. Srila Prabhupada gives us the whole plate of never-ending Prasadam, the best halavah and sweet rice, the subjhi cooked to perfection by the most qualified brahmana. Parampara is intact due to each Sriman Gurudeva giving more and more.

 

I have read some who say Srila Prabhupada is saktivesa avatar. I say absolutely, but if someone says he is visnu-tattwa, I take offense. The reason being is that he always wants, as does Lord Jesus Christ always want, us to become like them. If Lord Jesus or Srila Prabhupada are Visnu-tattwa, such instruction becomes meaningless and smacks of mayavada philosophy. All rasa is destroyed by such artificial deification, for if the Son and the Father are the same, there is no relationship, there is neither son nor father. Without acintya-bheda-bheda-tattwa, there can be no discussion of visnu-tattwa nor can guru-tattwa be well understood. Only adhira is evident.

 

Understand what is meant by diksa, a personal COMMITMENT to disciple, know how deep his LOVE for us is. The quest for initiation, while not disrespected by this writer, must not get in the way of what is meant by real initiation. Initiation is not membership, it is promise to reciprocate commitment. All I did was cause disturbance, because those who expected me to be preceptor soon understood that I was unwilling to COMMIT myself to them despite their lack of progress.

 

This is the difference between a bonafide spiritual master, mahabhagavata, uttama-adhikari, and one who wants to be, yet falls short. We should all be aspiring to be just like Srila Prabhupada, and success will be when we can even forego our own spiritual life, such as He did by leaving Vrndavandhama to come to us, and COMMIT, in service to Sri Sri Guru and Gauranga, to the suffering masses, to engage them in this wonderful Samkirtana, to become a selfless diksa guru and take RESPONSIBILITY for their Krsna Consciousness. In short, we must COMMIT ourselves, in the service to Srila Prabhupada, to the poor souls in every town and village, to give them Harinama.

 

The fact of the matter is this. Every one of Srila Prabhupada's disciples, no matter what condition of life they were in, are in, or will be in, have the eternal opportunity to follow in the footsteps of Srila Prabhupada at any time. This does not mean imitate, but can mean they may accept disciples and act as diksa in their own right. At any time, we may freely choose to FOLLOW, and at that time may be immediately cleansed of all their unwanted burdens of impious mistakes. We MUST understand the potency of the HOLY NAMES of the Supreme Lord.

 

To accept the devotional service to act as diksa is not an ego trip, nor is it a cool thing to do. It is actually the most difficult service one may perform, and is done in extreme humility, and ALL who accept this service in such a state of mind deserve all respect from the assembled devotees. Such a person promises Sri Krsna to forego his rewards for his Krsna Consciousness until all his disciples become pure Vaisnavas, thus the warning against accepting disciples is contained in Shastra. Srila Prabhupada is very clear in this matter, he is very clear expressing his desire to reclaim his fallen disciples, he is very clear in fulfilling his promise to appear to us eternally in his instructions, coming to us often in dreams even while we are acting so demoniac. I myself am living proof of this potency of my Guru Maharaja, because I always drift away, but he never lets me go.

 

His disciples, who, on the strength of the teachings of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu contained in His Sri Siksastakam, decide to take on this "HEAVY" bhakti yoga practice of becoming Diksa and continuing the pure line of Parampara, deserve nothing but my heartfelt obiesancies. I will not accept this service at this time, I have too many flaws, and even though approached, I must defer. I can and do accept the position of siksa because that is MY PROMISE to my Diksa, as well as an act of respect to all my siksas.

 

There is nothing we have done to warrant our acceptance by Sri Gurudeva, thus the words "causeless mercy" are used to describe initial linkage. We walk on the streets of Armageddion and we see one who may be a friend. He exhibits symptoms of Vaisnava, and we are attracted. He gives, on behalf of his Gurudeva, raja-vidya. We take a little, our taste increases, GRADUAL PROCESS, (How many times does this phrase appear in Srila Prabhupada's books?), Who is this person? He loves Sri Krsna. He gives Sri Krsna. He is Sri Gurudeva. Siksa. His teachings ultimately lead us to the feet of his Gurudeva, who leads us to the feet of his Gurudeva, and so on. In the event that Siksaguru's Gurudeva is still serving on this plane, Siksa will arrange for one to accept initiation from His Gurudeva. If siksa guru is in separation from his diksaguru due to maha-samadhi, in service to Parampara, will become Diksa himself, or may not choose to formalize relationship via initiation. This is service, perfromed without false prestiege or desire for adulation. To accept the order to be Guru means to give the order, and one should not think that Diksa and Siksa are different, in purpose. Both are directly engaged by Sesa Balarama, Sri Chaitagurudeva. Never has a bonafide guru existed without direct empowerment by this process. As he tastes, he distributes.

 

"You are the seasoning of the world, the residents can only benefit from your presense. If you lose your flavor, you are rejected, thrown away and trampled underfoot, and considered worthless." Lord Jesus Christ is here describing the qualities of one who has accepted the order. Those who cannot forget Gurudeva, even though they have often tried, are the world's seasoning, and have every ability to expand this great movement that can save the poor sleepers. What more guruship could any of us desire.

 

hare krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

[krsna]

*********************************************************

 

This is the difference between a bonafide spiritual master, mahabhagavata, uttama-adhikari, and one who wants to be, yet falls short. We should all be aspiring to be just like Srila Prabhupada, and success will be when we can even forego our own spiritual life, such as He did by leaving Vrndavandhama to come to us, and COMMIT, in service to Sri Sri Guru and Gauranga, to the suffering masses, to engage them in this wonderful Samkirtana, to become a selfless diksa guru and take RESPONSIBILITY for their Krsna Consciousness. In short, we must COMMIT ourselves, in the service to Srila Prabhupada, to the poor souls in every town and village, to give them Harinama.

 

*****************************************************

[gHari]

 

So powerful, and I'm sure I only scratched the surface.

 

Please save this piece (for the future, here are a few typos: perfromed, prestiege, pretense, obiesancies). Maybe one more pass spell-checking will uncover more of the little treasures that Krsna has left hidden in there for you.

 

I found a few of mine today in there.

 

gHari

 

[krsna]

or Maha Max

[stonehearted]

Do you mean Antya-lila, Ch. 8, where Madhavendra Puri's passing is described as a set-up for the story of Ramachandra Puri's criticizing even the Lord? It's wonderful indeed.

[stonehearted]

Thanks for sharing that with us, brah. I really like your point about taking responsibility for the spiritual lives of those our efforts touch. This article's power comes from the strength of your conviction.

[livingentity]

Please accept my most humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada our eternal spiritual master.

 

What an extremely powerful article!! Please consider publishing this somewhere for more widespread distribution.

 

Thank you for sharing this wonderful article with us.

[Guest guest]

Haribol, folks, thank you much for your comments. Ya just hate to bomb on mothers day. The complete article, titled "Guru Tattwa Essays" can be found at:

 

http://www.geocities.com/mahaksadasa/gtva.html

 

Seriously, over the last decades I have personally wondered what the big deal is about the transition from bonafide disciple and bonafide guru. I was taught they were both the same thing, that a guru is known by the fact that (s)he is disciple. In the Vaisnavism introduced by Srila Prabhupada to the west, the line of Gurus is not called "ascended masters", "enlightened lamas", or anything of the kind. Parampara is translated as "disciplic succession", meaning the entire line of gurus are completely present in the heart of the disciple, thus, when the disciple chants the revealed absolute truth, all the spiritual masters are giving class through the disciple.

 

Becoming a spiritual master is not contrived in any way shape or form, there is no democratic process, there is no examination or subsequent diploma, in fact, a bonafide spiritual master is not even known by the number of disciples he or she may have. All the adjectives thrown about, while descriptive of purpose and function, do not qualify what is meant by guru. Krsna uses HIS vehicle to transmit HIS truth to the heart of one He selects as eligible. Siksa, diksa, none of these things make a great difference, and Srila Prabhupada also agrees by saying that diksa is a formal recognition of an established relationship, not necessarily the relationship itself.

 

A Good example is Haridas Thakur. No one would dare to say that he was limited in that he had no formalized relationship with diksa guru Lord Chaitanya. Everyone knows that Lord Chaitanya worships Haridas, and the ocean has become as good as the Ganges because Haridas' form was rested there. There is no greater personality in our entire treasure of shastra than Haridas, yet social convention prevented any formalized relationship from taking place. Yet the relationship is purely seen.

 

Becoming guru is natural. Srila Prabhupada speaks of this in his 1973 address on the occassion of the disappearance of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati. He took no test, he had no peer approval, it was that Krsna and His Guru decided to take him up on his pure devotional service as DISCIPLE. Being DISCIPLE is Srila Prabhupadas crowning glory. When He arrived in the west, he did not advertize his name, he advertized Krsna's Name. He never became a master, and he always declines to speak of his mastery.

 

As servant of Rupa Goswami, he introduced to his western disciples a sadhana bhakti process called guru-puja. He taught his students to worship him, not because he thought of himself as worshippable, but simply because Srila Rupa Goswami determines that practice of worship gives a disciple a taste of the bliss of recognizing one's swarupa, remembering who we are, the servants of Krsna. Guru puja is a personalization of the worshipping process, and a real guru never thinks that this stuff belongs to him, any more than he would disturb arotik by eating the food offered to Krsna.

 

But, there are gurus, and these folks are known by the fact that Krsna is being delivered. A non-guru is powerless to give Krsna to others, because he has nothing to give. One who has received krsna, tastes and exhibits the satisfation of having tasted krsna consciousness, such a person can give krsna to others. So, Srila Prabhupada defines the word "guru" as one who is heavily laden with love of god, so much so, that such love spills out of the storehouse and goes everywhere. A guru is like a monsoon cloud, Krsna is distributed indiscriminately, to the rocks, in the sea, and on fertile ground as well.

 

Gotta get to work (here at the hospital), folks are dying to get in here, so, hope yall are well. Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa