hmm...this is interesting...

[livingentity]

Tamla Krsna Maharaja: "I've had a certain realization a few days ago.(...) There are obviously so many statements by Srila Prabhupada that his Guru Maharaja did not appoint any successors.(...) Even in Srila Prabhupada's books he says guru means by qualification.(...)

 

The inspiration came because there was a questioning on my part, so Krishna spoke. Actually Prabhupada never appointed any gurus. He appointed eleven ritviks. He never appointed them gurus. Myself and the other GBC have done the greatest disservice to this movement the last three years because we interpreted the appointment of ritviks as the appointment of gurus.

 

What actually happened I'll explain. I explained it but the interpretation is wrong. What actually happened was that Prabhupada mentioned he might be appointing some ritviks, so the GBC met for various reasons, and they went to Prabhupada, five or six of us. (This refers to the meeting of May 1977,). We asked him, 'Srila Prabhupada, after your departure, if we accept disciples, whose disciples will they be, your disciples or mine?'

 

Later on there was a piled up list of people to get initiated, and it was jammed up. I said, 'Srila Prabhupada, you once mentioned about ritviks. I don't know what to do. We don't want to approach you, but there's hundreds of devotees named, and I'm just holding all the letters. I don't know what you want to do'.

 

Srila Prabhupada said, 'All right, I will appoint so many...' and he started to name them. He made it very clear that they are his disciples. At that point it was very clear in my mind that they were his disciples. Later on I asked him two questions, one: 'What about Brahmananda Swami?'. I asked him this because I happened to have an affection for Brahmananda Swami.(...) So Srila Prabhupada said, 'No, not unless he is qualified'. Before I got ready to type the letter, I asked him, two: 'Srila Prabhupada is this all or do you want to add more?'. He said, 'As is necessary, others may be added.'

 

Now I understand that what he did was very clear. He was physically incapable of performing the function of initiation; therefore he appointed officiating priests to initiate on his behalf. He appointed eleven, and he said very clearly, 'Whoever is nearest can initiate'. This is very important because when it comes to initiating, it isn't whoever is nearest, it's wherever your heart goes. Who (you) repose your faith on, you take initiation from him. But when it's officiating, it's whoever is nearest, and he was very clear. He named them. They were spread out all over the world, and he said, 'Whoever your nearest, you just approach that person, and they'll check you out. Then, on my behalf, they'll initiate.' It is not a question that you repose your faith in that person - nothing. That's a function for the guru.

 

'In order for me to manage this movement', Prabhupada said, 'i have to form a GBC and I will appoint the following people. In order to continue the process of people joining our movement and getting initiated, I have to appoint some priests to help me because(...) I cannot physically manage everyone myself.'

 

And that's all it was, and it was never any more than that, you can bet your bottom dollar that Prabhupada would have spoken for days and hours and weeks on end about how to set up this thing with the gurus, because he had already said it a million times. He said: My Guru Maharaja did not appoint anyone. It's by qualification.' We made a great mistake. After Prabhupada's departure what is the position of these eleven people?(...)

 

Prabhupada showed that it is not just sannyasis. He named two people who were grihastas, who could at least be ritviks, showing that they were equal to any sannyasi. So anyone who is spiritually qualified - it's always been understood that you cannot accept disciples in the presence of your guru, but when the guru disappears, you can accept disciples if you are qualified and someone can repose their faith. Of course, they (prospective disciples) should be fully appraised at how to distinguish who is a proper guru. But if you are a proper guru, and your guru is no longer present, that is your right. It's like a man can procreate(...) Unfortunately the GBC did not recognise this point. They immediately (assumed, decided) that these eleven people are the selected gurus. I can definitely say for myself, and for which I humbly beg forgiveness from everybody, that there was definitely some degree of trying to control(...) This is the conditioned nature, and it came out in the highest position of all, 'Guru, oh wonderful! Now I am guru, and there is only eleven of us'(...).

 

I feel that this realization or this understanding is essential if we are to avoid further things from happening, because, believe me, it's going to repeat. It's just a question of time until things have a little bit faded out and again another incident is going to happen, whether it's here in L.A. or somewhere else. It's going to continuously happen until you allow the actual spiritual force of Krishna to be exhibited without restriction.(...) I feel that the GBC body, if they don't adopt this point very quickly, if they don't realize this truth. You cannot show me anything on tape or in writing where Prabhupada says: 'I appoint these eleven as gurus'. It does not exist because he never appointed any gurus. This is a myth.(...) The day you got initiated you get the right to be come a father when your father disappears, if you are qualified. No appointment. It doesn't require an appointment, because there isn't one.

 

(Tamal Krishna Goswami - Dec.3, 1980)

 

 

 

[theist]

I never knew Tamala came to such a realization and voiced it. I was happy to read this.

 

Yes it is true this important mistake needs to be fully understood and remebered to prevent it arising again.

[livingentity]

I am glad to hear also that he voiced this realization. This could have become lost when he left his body.

 

 

[gHari]

Later he retracted it.

 

In 1977 he told Srila Prabhupada that he had examined each of the senior devotees and found none of them qualified to be guru.

 

I fear going into it all again after seeing so many getting stuck in the web of words and frazzled logic that ensues; not to mention the devastating potential for aparadha.

 

[livingentity]

that I have is that he retracted it after he received permission to take disciples again.

 

I feel he is being extremely honest in this speech and it comes across as sincere and heartfelt in his concern that offenses may have been committed towards Prabhupada.

 

 

[stonehearted]

Yes, this is the Topanga Canyon lecture. It was widely circulated in the '80s. When we had the big meeting at New Vrindavan in '85, I asked him to bring this up, to come clean in front of the GBC and all his Godbrothers. His reply: "I can't."

[theist]

A reversal like that makes one even more guilty. Cheating in full conscious knowledge of what one is doing.

 

"I can't" god these guys are just too much.

[gHari]

How many are still serving as ISKCON guru? I know we have Jayapataka Swami Maharaja and then Satsvarupa Maharaja (on temporary hiatus). I know three have left their bodies. Hrdayananda is either wisely keeping a low profile or I sadly missed his departure. Does anyone remember how Ramesvara left his body?

 

ELEVEN

 

KIrtanAnanda MahArAja

SatsvarUpa MahArAja

JayatIrtha Prabhu

BhagavAn Prabhu

Harikeza MahArAja

JayapatAkA MahArAja

TamAla KRSNa MahArAja

RAmezvara MahArAja

HRdayAnanda MahArAja

Hansaduta Maharaja

Bha*ananda

[livingentity]

Jayapataka and Hrdayananda it seems.

 

Isn't Hrdayananda at the LA temple?

[gHari]

I don't think he's been counted out yet.

 

[livingentity]

just as you say in hiatus.

[ancient_paztriot]

Isn't Hridayananda at the LA temple?

 

Spoken by a L.A. devotee that helped him move things out of his L.A. house…

 

Hridayananda moved to San Louis Obisbos (whatever the spllng). He is doing extensive writing there on a KC related novel/possible screenplay to inspire the karmis. (Mahabharata translation is on hold because of this). He hopes to make money on it and start a KC farm in the same area also. ( It is half-way between L.A. and S.F. …on the coast!) The area is just beautiful!

...........................

 

Now me…

Hrydayananda is undoubtedly the most accomplished KC devotee in my eyes. I'm not saying liberated! But I may be wrong. It can happen in the flash of an eye:

 

Krsna is pleased with your efforts: He comes… "You… me/we" make no offense… He stays…

 

I personally owe "Hridayananda Maharaja" alot. ( I think of mundane kings being called maharaja. And then I think, "What are they compared to him?") He deserves the title.

[livingentity]

San Luis Obispo is gorgeous!! I spent many years in that area - Santa Barbara, Santa Maria, San Luis Obispo and many little towns in between.

 

The college there - Cal Poly is one of the finest.

 

The area is lush with strawberry fields (forever!), avocado, oranges etc.

 

It is a very peaceful beautiful area and he will probably enjoy living and working there very much.

 

BTW...San Luis Obispo is a non-smoking town...no smoking in public including the sidewalks and streets!!

 

Hare Krsna

[ancient_paztriot]

How do the number of citizens survive in that area monitarily? Not everyone can be a clerk or business owner. Do they commute?

 

(Be back shortly. I need to practice guitar).

[livingentity]

it is extremely expensive there (the reason I left). Some people do commute to Santa Barbara where there is more work but most work at whatever they can find. I was always able to find work but then I have been a secretary for longer than I care to admit.

 

Basically, there are the wealthy people there and those that work for them.

 

Back in the 70's there was a lot of aerospace and defense contract work there. Not sure now with the death of the contracts etc.

 

I, too, will check in later. Got my chores to do here.

 

 

 

[ancient_paztriot]

… the poorer classes that work for the rich endure the hardships of a very expensive environment… NO DOUBT; the cost of atmosphere and view THE RICH CHARGE FOR as if it was THEIR BUSINESS… for the ambiance? Did that make sense?

 

(I felt serrenity there. Or at least some safety and calm… just passing through).

 

I once bought a house in place that seemed nice on appearances. But I was unhappy after moving in.

 

Next time I will rent in that area and "live there" before commiting myself.

 

Theist once told me that… Now I understand.

[gHari]

We interrupt our short travelogue as the penniless sitar player and the fair milkmaid do the needful.

 

In the interlude may I say that I am very happy that Srila Hrdayananda Maharaja is flourishing. I am even more enthused to see so much real talk here about guru. So many threads; the watchword of the day: G U R U. Perhaps this means we are all getting closer to JUST STOP and JUST DO IT. We ain't dyin' like this, are we kids?

 

[Guest guest]

It might be wise to place these talks by TKG in context. Was he simply "coming clean?" Experiencing a sudden, honest, heartfelt epiphany which he felt obliged to share with the devotees at large?

 

Or were there motivations in play here.

 

1980 was the year that TKG was booted out of his zone. He had stopped book distribution in Dallas and other places and told everyone to find jobs. Ramesvara began a campaign within the GBC to oppose TKG's apparent "deviation." Ramesvara apparently had some clout back then. There may have been other factors involved. Regardless, TKG was suspended or barred from his zone, and Bhagavan was placed as GBC for Dallas and other temples which TKG controlled. This didn't last too long, only a few months I believe. But during TKG's hiatus, he was, needless to say, quite unhappy with the situation. I believe the Topanga Canyon talks were delivered at that time. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

 

That's not to say that what TKG said at the time was false. Much of it may have been true. But was all of it true? Knowing that he had clear motive for saying what he said makes it doubtful, in my mind anyway, that I can believe him word for word, especially since he never repeated that message again once he was reinstated back into his position and his zone.

[mahak]

TKG had no option, because a devotee disciple of Srila Prabhupada who founded a school independent of ISKCON exposed the fraud of zonal and appointed acaryas. TKG admits that this person caused him to admit that no "acarya" appointments took place. Hamsaduta also was partly responsible for the admissions because he defied all of them (except Kirtanananda), and Hamsaduta was the first of the eleven to admit that he was not an acarya.

[livingentity]

seems that could be said more so about his retraction than the admission.

[krsna]

A-paradha :Taking us away from Radha

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I fear going into it all again after seeing so many getting stuck in the web of words and frazzled logic that ensues; not to mention the devastating potential for aparadha.***********************************************************************************************************