Science in Hindu Sacred Texts

[Avinash]

at least, the so-called barbaric teachings of koran have helped muslims conquer power in 55 countries

 

Are you trying to say that it is good to rule a country by barbarism? I completely disagree.

[vanamali]

Bas! Enough re! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Avinash]

Bas! Enough re! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

No bus, car, truck, train, aeroplane, rocket, satellite et. etc. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

I have found that some people think as if those who are interested in reading scriptures cannot have knowledge of science. This is completely untrue. I believe that Science is very useful. But Science, as it exists now, cannot make human beings happy on its own, though it definitely helps them in that direction. Therefore, we definitely need something more. Science does not teach us compassion, honesty etc., which are far more important virtues than just being highly knowledgeable scientists.

I am not trying to condemn Science. I am myself very much interested in it and consider it highly useful. But it is not sufficient to lead a good life.

[i_luv_krishna]

---> Total lack of knowledge. I know in software industry and in usa it is Indians who excel. It is not only in software but in every field Indians do better than most others. This is through my direct knowledge.

 

Sorry to inturrupt at an odd moment. There is truth in what both the parties are saying. The truth of the matter is that the outsourcing phenomenon is indeed a matter of saving the bottom line. I have been a part of the gaining side. However there is news that East European countries are now becoming the favourites because of the growing English education and of course --- lower per hour rates!!!

 

Most of these jobs would be fit to be done by an intelligent mechanic than by a good mechanical engineer.

Even then, there's no chance of these intellectual coolie jobs going to Pakistan/Afganistan/.... There is a definite need for some grey matter inside the skull. BTW, the "software coolie" term has been coined by an Indian in the Silicon Valley.

 

Can't blame the Indians for this. The customer I work for told his American employees that they were being shifted to a better project and got them to train us and then suddenly announced the closure of that office with six months salary.

 

Indians in US are indeed, generally, more productive than their American counterparts. Can't say that others in America are behind in brains. In the 5 years I have worked in this industry, I have seen wonderful systems being built by Indians and others (including native born Americans), but in the US. It is because of the technological environment there that is the facilitator and unfortunately present in a very limited quantity in a handful of institutions in India. The so called "tier 1" companies of the world are primarily doing "coolie" work in India.

[Raguraman]

Hare Krishna,

 

 

at least, the so-called barbaric teachings of koran have helped muslims conquer power in 55 countries, whereas hindus have been driven out of every country, even smaller nations like pakistan and bangladesh. In India too, hindus are treated as slaves and they almost had a foreign PM. So what does it say about Hindus? They are backward and worthless, a dead race, and their country india is a dead country. BTW: I am not Ahmed, the original poster, but a hindu, still I have to be objective, you know.

 

 

I see a sign of frustration and total lack of self respect here if you are really a Hindu.

 

 

It is a palpable fact that Hindus and anything related to it, like hk or vedic teaching etc. are all inferior and worth condemnation.

 

 

Please demonstrate how ? I demonstrated to you how quran has the most degenerate teachings in it. Also we see how such degenerate teachings can make some nations powerful just as degenerate people sometimes get rich and powerful. So atlest we can agree that material affluence does not always point to a civilized society.

 

In vedas acquiring wealth is also one of the goals, but that should be on dharma and not by looting people as mentioned in quran and hadiths.

 

Frankly I think you have a serious ego problem or atleast total lack of self respect.

 

 

for losing my cool in the previous post, but I was simply trying to offer a different perspective. And for the last time, I am NOT Ahmed or his clone, cuz I don't believe in unethical practices. lol. But the man, despite his sharp tongue, does make good points. Indians should understand that, particularly ppl who call themselves hindus or vaisnavas or whatever, take his advice and move forward.

 

 

and what is this advise. If it is to give up Vedas, then you can give it up. Weak minds like yourself need a good shock treatment.

[Raguraman]

Hare Krishna,

 

 

Sorry to inturrupt at an odd moment. There is truth in what both the parties are saying. The truth of the matter is that the outsourcing phenomenon is indeed a matter of saving the bottom line. I have been a part of the gaining side. However there is news that East European countries are now becoming the favourites because of the growing English education and of course --- lower per hour rates!!!.......

 

 

I do not deny the economics in these issues. While these may be true in several cases, it is also true that Indians also head and lead many organizations in software, engineering and research. I have seen this myself.

[i_luv_krishna]

---> I do not deny the economics in these issues. While these may be true in several cases, it is also true that Indians also head and lead many organizations in software, engineering and research. I have seen this myself.

 

Heading and leading organizations in software, engineering and research is not an exclusive domain of Indians. Sometimes over-patriotic people blur the ground realities here in India. Like somebody said India produces the largest number of scientists in the world, when somebody from, I think, IISc corrected that you can't include B.Sc. pass people in the category of scientists.

[vanamali]

As far as I have seen here in US it is Indians who dominate in software. However, now that the H1B party is, shall we say, "over" no longer are American companies hiring just any brown South Asian guy or lady. Previously, everybody was getting visas and as a consequence a lot of unqualified people got jobs. Now in the post 9-11 economy, incompetent people are not getting jobs (Indians, Americans, and otherwise), and people prefer to hire Americans right now due to lower pay requirements (no sponsorship). I have heard that the situation is improving, but I am not in the software business, so I couldn't say for sure.

 

My original point in bringing up this topic was for this reason... in the US the only thing you ever see about India on TV is people washing cows. Most people here think India is all about cows and poverty, and that's the limit.

 

This is the case in my state (Kansas) anyway. We're just a bunch of hicks. /images/graemlins/smile.gif Haha Actually that's not quite true, but almost.

 

Cheers!

 

~Vanamali

[i_luv_krishna]

---> My original point in bringing up this topic was for this reason... in the US the only thing you ever see about India on TV is people washing cows. Most people here think India is all about cows and poverty, and that's the limit.

 

he, he, he!!!

 

Everybody here in India, down to the rickshaw puller, knows what an average American would think India is all about. Thanks to BBC, CNN, FOX, NBC .... But a knee jerk reaction to this here is a self praise that is not in conformance with the existing situation. Pockets of excellence are far and few and most of them seem to flower in the US.

[Raguraman]

Hare Krishna,

 

 

Heading and leading organizations in software, engineering and research is not an exclusive domain of Indians. Sometimes over-patriotic people blur the ground realities here in India. Like somebody said India produces the largest number of scientists in the world, when somebody from, I think, IISc corrected that you can't include B.Sc. pass people in the category of scientists.

 

 

This is what happens when one does not read the full post and goes ahead with irrelevant postings without understanding the context.

 

The context is some guy pointing to Indians as not so intelligent by comparing them to teaching a few tricks to dogs.

 

So my answer to them is pointing to many research scientists in Universities and other research institutes. Now whatever that IISc guy pointed to, I am sure he has no first hand knowledge of what is happening here in USA. Now this is not just limited to software but to many other fields.

 

It is better for Indians who never visited USA not to make ignorant comments foolishy and for once i would request some people here to read the post in context.

 

By the way, the East Indian community in USA is one of the most successful and highly educated minority group in USA.

 

The most surprising thing of all is that you(an Indian) supporting a guy who calls Indians as dogs and slaves. Do you have any self respect at all.

[vanamali]

I'm certain that the previous poster is not supporting the Ahmed clone

 

---> It is better for Indians who never visited USA not to make ignorant comments foolishy and for once i would request some people here to read the post in context.

 

 

Anyway, this is an old post, and the heat is off. So do not worry Raguraman.

[Guest guest]

makes a lot of sense, doesn't he? Thats why it's recd. so many responses. BTW: I am neither ahmed nor the clone, just an observer.

[Raguraman]

Hare Krishna,

 

 

makes a lot of sense, doesn't he? Thats why it's recd. so many responses. BTW: I am neither ahmed nor the clone, just an observer.

 

 

The clone is a clown. The fact that there are so many responses that oppose and demolished this clone clown's view shows that the clown is full of nonsense and hatred expecially for Indians, just like you and/or Ahmed.

[Avinash]

There are many ideas in the scriptures that I find profound. Even imagining such ideas is itself great. Some of these are: -

 

1. Multitudes of universes.

2. Time not being the same everywhere.

[Guest guest]

and I am NOT ahmed or the clone. How many times do I have to say this? I am just trying to save Indians and other backward people from themselves, that's all. That doesn't make me muslim or ahmed or the clone. I am a helper.

 

[Raguraman]

Hare Krishna,

 

 

and I am NOT ahmed or the clone. How many times do I have to say this? I am just trying to save Indians and other backward people from themselves, that's all. That doesn't make me muslim or ahmed or the clone. I am a helper.

 

 

 

Indians are not backward. Most Indians are quite intelligent and capable of saving themselves and do not need a third class anonymous prejudiced moron like you to save them. You do not even have the courage to mention your name and faith here. Tell me what is your religion first if you have any and please be truthful about this ie if you have any guts in you.

 

By the way every point you made has been demolished here and you do not even understand that. You are repeating your prejudices like a foolish bible thumper. By the way how do you propose to "save" the Indians and what are your plans ? Just writing here will not do any help.

[Avinash]

Raguraman ji,

Your post was the last, so I am just replying to that. This question is for all.

 

Are there written records of ice age in our scriptures?

[i_luv_krishna]

---> Now whatever that IISc guy pointed to, I am sure he has no first hand knowledge of what is happening here in USA.

 

That's a typical Americanized Indian snobbery. However, some people prefer reality. What you mention is all in the US of America. It is because of the environment supporting knowledge and originality. Tell me, how many original research comes out of the heavily funded IITs? The graduates are busy packing their bags to the US and the PG's want to sit for IAS!!!

 

http://www.rediff.com/news/2003/jul/11praful.htm

 

---> It is better for Indians who never visited USA not to make ignorant comments foolishy and for once i would request some people here to read the post in context.

 

You sure seem to have a crystal ball, buddy, to have seen who never went to the USA by how they talk ....

 

---> By the way, the East Indian community in USA is one of the most successful and highly educated minority group in USA.

 

You take me to be a communist or what?

 

---> The most surprising thing of all is that you(an Indian) supporting a guy who calls Indians as dogs and slaves. Do you have any self respect at all.

 

When dogs bark, I don't have much time to respond and bark back at them -- that does not add to my dignity! I was not supporting the guy. I don't support Osamas, either Pakistani or Indian.

[Avinash]

I agree with you that there are many Indians who show Indians in better light than they really are. At the same time there are many (both Indians and non-Indians) who show Indians in worse light than they really are.

 

You are talking about original research from IITs. The journals through which research works become famous are mostly American and Europian. It is possible that there is some research work which is good, but it does not become well-known because it has not been published in these journals. It is not so easy for an Indian to publish papers in these journals as for Americans and Europians. You may be thinking that my complain is not based on facts. But no. Whatever I have written is based on facts.

[Avinash]

I was once reading some issues of a journal on Geophysics. In one issue, some author from University of Berkley pubished a paper. He had made some mistakes in some Mathematical calculations. One professor from NGRI (National Geophysical Research Institute, Hyderabad, India) noticed that and wrote a letter to the editor pointing it out. His letter was published in the next issue. In the issue next to that, the author of the paper gave his reply. His reply was highly insulting. He talked as if the professor from NGRI was some fool. He did not explain why the points raised by that professor were not valid. Again in the next issue, the professor from NGRI explained his point in much more detail. In fact, he explained in so much detail that laymen need to be explained this way. The original author of the paper never replied to that.

[i_luv_krishna]

Avinash, I agree that there may be some logistical problems faced by the researchers in India, but beyond that I would not say that just because a case or two has come up of some odd discrimination, the whole system is like that. People in IITs publish papers all throughout (because I have been through the system). I was just referring to the mad rush to get some papers in one's bag just to polish the resume. There doesn't seem to be an urge for novelty. Indians have done some of the finest jobs in research when they move on to the US. Why is that? Does any Indian care to think? A nation is not built just by talks. There has to be solid groundwork. If brains go elsewhere, mediocrity will be left behind to manage India and that is what is happening and what I was referring to. I have great appreciation for people who inspite of easy opportunities to move out, have stayed back and showed how to make a difference, to really go where one is needed. I don't remember his name right now, but one such person was a director of CDAC.

[Avinash]

I have seen some articles (from authors from Western countries), which are not at all original. But even then these get published. As an example, there is a formula used to study seismic waves, which is an approximation. The approximation is quite good if the distance between geophone and source is small compared to the depth of the layer which reflects the waves. But as the distance increases, the error become more significant. This has been known for years. But I saw an article in which the author had mentioned the same thing. He just had given what will be the error for various values of source to geophone distance for a given value of relecting surface depth. The formula used to find this error was also already existing in literature. In fact, the formula had been found years back. But even then the article got published. I can claim that there are many articles which are far more original, but they are rejected.

 

When I was studying Earth sciences, then I noticed that there were many approaches by which we could know about the structure of Earth upto a great depth, but these did not give very accurate values. As an example instead of 60 layers inside Earth it gave only 15 layers, because it could not distinguish between some of layers. Also the physical properties of the layers given by these approaches were highly crude. On the other hand, there were a few techniques by which we could know the physical properties very accurately, but these could be used only for a very shallow depth (of the order of just one metre). Getting knowledge of just one metre depth is not of much use. Therefore, this was of only academic importance, and not of any practical value. I tried publishing a paper that contained techniqus to know about Earth's layers in great detail upto so much depth that it could be really be put to practical use. The paper was outright rejected. I was very much disappointed because I had put very much effort on that. The trigonometry problems that I had to solve to get that technique was so complicated that I often failed like giving it up. To check the idea, I wrote a program in VC++ after learning VC++ on my own. I fed data from different parts of the world. The output showed that what I had found really worked. Inspite of all this, the paper got rejected. I sought the help of my head of department. He sent the paper with his recommendation. Again, it was rejected. Then I emailed my article to a professor in Caltech whom I knew somehow. He gave his recommendation. The paper was immediately accepted. It was published in a special issue of the jounral of "Computers and Geosciences".

Please note that the version of my paper that was rejected and the version that was accepted had absolutely no difference in content. Both were EXACTLY the same. It is just that the second version got the recommendation from a professor of Caltech.

It was good for me that my article ultimately got published, but I had to share the credit with many others. I showed the paper to my HOD. He added his name as one of the authors. Not only that, he also added the names of two research schollars who were working under him. He added the name of a junior prefessor who had studied under my HOD in the past. When the paper was published, it contained all these names and also the name of the professor from Caltech. This really made me very sad because the whole idea was mine and so many other people added their names.

[Avinash]

Indians have done some of the finest jobs in research when they move on to the US.

 

This is exactly what I was going to write in my next post. Good that you already mentioned that. Since they have done good work after coming to US, it shows that they did not lack in talent. Personally, I have also refused many offers to go to US and some other countries. But it will be a lie if I say that my decision was influenced by love for my country. I refused the offers because of some family problems. It is just that since I stayed here, I just utilised my knowledge to do some little bit for the people of India. As an example, I once found some ground water in a village in West Bengal where the residents were suffering because of the scarcity of drinking water.

 

But it is not so easy to stay in India and do some good work as it is after moving to US.

[i_luv_krishna]

Avinash, I can sympathize with you. And there are two things I would like to say. Sometimes because of one's own experiences one tends to make some generalizations which may be somewhat out of touch with reality. Second why not get into building a nation where one can live without feeling like (for want of a better word) a second class citizen. People are not born perfect but as one matures one realizes the broader context in which one gets to fit himself in society. Whatever motivation was behind your service, that was more precious than some green dollars coming to India. May be, some day, you will feel the satisfaction behind it. I am not someone very different than you. I have taught engineering in places where perhaps once I would not have liked to go. But if everybody starts thinking like that, then this will go on and on and on. Germany and Japan did not come up because the US had pumped money. It was because the people there were stubborn enough to see their country being rebuilt by their own hands.

 

But then again this is my opinion only. It has already been pointed out that I am a person with no self respect, so I should stop here.

[Avinash]

Germany and Japan did not come up because the US had pumped money. It was because the people there were stubborn enough to see their country being rebuilt by their own hands.

 

There are many reasons why India has not progressed as much as the citizens here can make it. One of these reasons is complacency, i.e., that famous "chalta hai" attitude.