I know nothing...this is it

[Haridham]

Hare Krsna everyone. I feel that I am not qualified to be amongst you all. This are my final few words which i thought today.

 

I know nothing.

I am a fool.

Bow before me.

I know nothing.

Nothing is what I know.

How can you serve me.

Bow before me.

Nothing is absolute.

Nothing is the answer

[Haridham]

When it all comes at you from all sides,

when escape is no where to be had surrender is the reason I left,Surrender is the only optioin to choose.

Every which way I look what else do i have to lose. Surrender is the only option to choose.

Now to find out surrender to who.

 

Safe in the illusion are you comfortable with your falls that you have built.

 

The walls which are coming to embrace. Isnt it ironic, those are the walls you longed for.

 

All around is confusion. Making me bewildered, thinking I am the controller, entangling farther and farther.

 

Surrendering to the idea that I dont need to surrender, sleeping, sleeping, wake up, wake and finally take up.

[Haridham]

What will I say, what will you hear. If I call out loud,

 

will it get inside. How many promises will you break.

 

How many should I let you. Dont you judge of my composure

 

Im only lying to myself. What is my value but first dont

 

let me dissapoint you, yes so tell me a lie as you mumble

 

and stumble. Please forgive my smile I am just forgiving

 

you. Ever heard the sound of shattered dreams, sorry to

 

dissapoint you, just thought it was ok to ask.

 

 

[Haridham]

What can I write?

 

I have no inspiration

 

No Humility,

 

No knowledge,

 

no proof.

 

Just a good act that in the end only fools me.

 

All I know is krsna, or is that Krsna that only knows me.

 

As my lord there is nothing else I should know.

 

Is there any point for Krsna is the one that makes this

 

shameless and deeply covered spirit soul.

 

The bells are ringing now. The night is cold and dark. The

 

road is foggy. The shadows have come to take me away, time

 

for my exile.

 

Your unworthy Son.

 

 

Its been nice knowing you all, but I dont think I can continue coming here. I am not worthy of anything. I will be fine. Is there a reason for me to stay. I havent found one. I dont contribute anything here. I have just my beliefs and no intelligence to back it up.

 

Anyways, I will see you all in the future sometime. I would love to hear from you all.

 

Hare krsna

 

 

[Guest guest]

In the beginning there was nothing, because if there was something, where did it come from??

 

And nothing was there, because if it was not there, then there would have been something.

 

And because nothing was there, it existed as nothing. But because it existed it was also something, and something came into being, brahman.

 

And brahman thought what am I? and the one became the one and the one that looked down upon it.

 

Prakrti was created as the one, and the one that looked down upon it, Purusa.

 

and Prakrti divided in search of the answer to Purusa's question 'what am I?'

and samsara became because no thing truly dies it merely transforms like the wood of a tree that becomes a table and later burnt and becomes ash, which later provides nutrient to a new tree... all is prakrti and nothing in prakrti can ever cease.

 

hence knowledge of 'who am I?' (atman) leads to moksa.

 

but in the beginning there was only nothing and atman was brahman and brahman was nothing.

 

tat tvam asi

 

[yasodanandana]

In the beginning there was nothing, because if there was something, where did it come from??

...nothing does not exist, and there's no beginning and no end.. everything is eternal and eternally emanated by bhagavan sri krsna. So everything comes eternally without any interruction in this eternal linking .. from sri krsna bhagavan

 

And because nothing was there, it existed as nothing

..the existence of the non existence is contraddictory and cannot be demonstrated

 

But because it existed it was also something, and something came into being, brahman.

...the whole cannot be generated by the nothing... and also the time is a product, an emanation of the whole. So Eternal Brahman is not conditionated and subjected to the time and does not follows his rules.. so there's not a moment of start in the existence of Brahman and Param Brahman

 

and samsara became because no thing truly dies

...that's not an explanation, it is simply to put two definition together... i come to paris because i wear a t-shirt.. samsara comes because we voluntarily experience the absence of god and transcendence. So maya has to illude us that we are material bodies with limited life and death.

It is Krsna who graciously and kindly gives us the freedom and the power to forget him

 

hence knowledge of 'who am I?' (atman) leads to moksa.

..yes, rediscovering or remembering that we are eternal servants of krishna and acting accordingly, we get liberation from material sufferings and go back to vaikunta, back to godhead

 

but in the beginning there was only nothing and atman was brahman and brahman was nothing.

...brahman is eternal, if nothing is the source of brahman it is eternal too..... why are you existing if everything is nothing?

 

[krsna]

 

What does all this nothing

have to do with Krishna

who is absolutely everything!

[Govindaram]

 

I know everything.

 

You chant don't you?

 

Why do you say you know nothing?

 

Even if you read Bhagavatam/Gita/CC for years and years, if you don't come to the point that you need to chant, what is the benefit of actually reading these books? Except for cheap adoration of the innocent public.

 

Come on am I wrong or right?

[Guest guest]

Nothing is that which both exists and does not exist simultaneously. It is the only thing that is eternal because it is the only thing that does not change. All matter changes and is therefore not eternal. All jiva experiences and is therefore not eternal, it changes with experience because it is aware of something that it was not previously aware of.

 

Time came into being the second that brahman thought.

 

The existence of non-existence has already been demonstrated logically to you...

 

Nothing must be there because if it was not there then there would have to be something. And if there was something, where did it come from? Yet because nothing is there, nothing exists.

Think of the nature of brahman and compare to that of the nature of nothing. There does exist passages in the Upanisads that state that brahman is nothing, but I don't have the time to hunt them out for you.

Nothing is the only thing that is internal, eternal and infinite. If I was to ask you how big Krsna is, and you were to reply that Krsna was infinite, then it would be correct to say that nothing was bigger than Krsna.

There is more space inside an atom than there is matter, without space no one thing could move.

 

You are correct there is no start to brahman because brahman is nothing, and nothing is the only thing that is timeless. It is the alter ego of brahman that which is studied that creates time. It is when brahman thought that time began.

 

samsara is caused by the desire to maintain rta through sacrifice. It later came because of the desire for life and the reason we desire life is to obtain material wealth and pleasures. By realising that all is maya and that all is merely the 'body' of nothing so that brahman can experience in order to analyse itself then we lose desire and are free. However, this is as close to moksa we can obtain without ceasing to exist. Your Krsna is merely an illusion of maya, Krsna never once says he is brahman, it is left to Arjuna to make that claim. But here is the irony because we are all brahman, Krsna is nothing special, he is merely a personnification of brahman, but then are we not all such?

 

Why am I existing if everything is nothing?

because I am merely part of the maya created from nothing. There is no difference between you and me, we simply debate here to work something out that is beyond the concept of 'self'. Our thoughts are not our own, it is a delusion that such thoughts exist independently of each other, in reality 'your' thoughts are being manipulated by my writings, but if they were truly 'your' conscience then why is it that you think thoughts that are occasionally unpleasant to you? If you truly could control your thoughts then you would only ever have pleasant thought. In reality such a thing does not exist because all is maya, and only nothing truly exists.

 

tat tvam asi

 

 

 

[theist]

Nothing doesn't exist. Why talk about it like it does?

[yasodanandana]

All matter changes and is therefore not eternal

...matter is eternal... simply it is subjected to various manifestation

 

The existence of non-existence has already been demonstrated logically to you...

..i knew i am a big philosopher.. but where i did it?

 

Nothing must be there because if it was not there then there would have to be something

..please.. what... when and where?

 

And if there was something, where did it come from?

..brahman, param brahman, krsna..

 

Yet because nothing is there, nothing exists.

..i see many things and i experience many things... so this nothing does not exist, because at least my vision and experience, even if conditionated, exists

 

Think of the nature of brahman and compare to that of the nature of nothing.

...the relative world is full of variety, feelings, subjects, objects and relationships.. so if i think about the nature of the spirit i cannot avoid to imagine it more complete and full of features than this mortal world. So Spirit, Brahman, Transcendence is sat (eternal), cit (full of knowledge), cit (full of bliss)... not exactly a void

 

If I was to ask you how big Krsna is, and you were to reply that Krsna was infinite, then it would be correct to say that nothing was bigger than Krsna.

...not exact.. krsna is much bigger of that nothing

 

There is more space inside an atom than there is matter, without space no one thing could move.

..space is something, ether, a matter... not a void

 

It is when brahman thought that time began.

...how can the "nothing" think? how an existence (a thought) come out from nothing?

 

the reason we desire life is to obtain material wealth and pleasures.

...this is because in the world when we came from, vaikunta, we are full of wealth and pleasure... desire does not come from nothing

 

. By realising that all is maya and that all is merely the 'body' of nothing so that brahman can experience in order to analyse itself then we lose desire and are free

...brahman is the whole, he does not miss anything.. so there's no need for him to learn something new.. because everything is inside brahman, every experience, every analisys.. Brahman and Param Brahman is CIT.. consciousness personified.. nothing is missing

 

Krsna is nothing special, he is merely a personnification of brahman

...brahman is impersonal as definition.. so he cannot contain personality. The opposite is possible, beyond the energy there's the energetic.. so god (krsna=the all attractive because he possess everything(=bhagavan)). The energy (=impersonal brahman), as we know from our experience and logic, comes from the energetic (=the person param brahman, krsna)

 

Krsna never once says he is brahman, it is left to Arjuna to make that claim.

....Arjuna is not a stupid, he's fully authoritative .. so he's to be believed:

 

Chapter 10. The Opulence of the Absolute

 

TEXT 12-13

 

arjuna uvaca

param brahma param dhama

pavitram paramam bhavan

purusam sasvatam divyam

adi-devam ajam vibhum

 

ahus tvam rsayah sarve

devarsir naradas tatha

asito devalo vyasah

svayam caiva bravisi me

 

TRANSLATION

Arjuna said: You are the Supreme Brahman, the ultimate, the supreme abode and purifier, the Absolute Truth and the eternal divine person. You are the primal God, transcendental and original, and You are the unborn and all-pervading beauty. All the great sages such as Narada, Asita, Devala, and Vyasa proclaim this of You, and now You Yourself are declaring it to me.

-----

------

 

he is merely a personnification of brahman, but then are we not all such?

...krsna is not a personification because person is higher that energy.. brahman is the effulgence of krishna

we are eternally persons, our personal and individual existence does not start and does not end. So there's not a moment when we are created by brahman or something else. Then we are like Krishna in quality, but not in quantity, he's infinite , we are infinitesimal.. he's supreme, we are subordinate to him directly or indirectly by maya

 

Why am I existing if everything is nothing?

because I am merely part of the maya created from nothing

--in nothing there's no part and no whole, no reality and no illusion, no creation, no source of creation, no creative intelligence. So if you exist, the nothing is a fantasy

 

Our thoughts are not our own, it is a delusion that such thoughts exist independently of each other, in reality 'your' thoughts are being manipulated by my writings

...so where's the void? you are speaking of we, our, illusion, delusion, thoughts, existence, independence, reality, your, manipulation and writings. This is a great display of existence. we are independent in being complete individual personalities and dependent and linked because we share the same environment. A portion of mutual independence is there.. otherwise there would not be desires and actions... so relationships

 

if they were truly 'your' conscience then why is it that you think thoughts that are occasionally unpleasant to you?

...mind is a tool not my reality.. in this tool are acquisition of informations and the powers and the skills to handle them. We are not pefect, mind is not perfect, the computer something crashes or he do not work properly.. or we are not expert and we have not complete control. We search for word and we open photoshop.. where's the problem?

 

If you truly could control your thoughts then you would only ever have pleasant thought.

...yes.. so if pleasant thoughts exist, there's no space for the void, th empty ness

 

In reality such a thing does not exist because all is maya, and only nothing truly exists.

..if all is maya.. maya exist.. maya is krsna's energy.. so krsna exist and controls everything directly or through maya

 

 

[Guest guest]

 

I know everything.

 

You chant don't you?

 

Why do you say you know nothing?

 

 

 

He says that because he has a habit of offending other Hindus and even other Vaishnavas. When this sectarian, bad behavior is pointed out to him, he at first tries to defend it, and then when that does not succeed, he goes into self-defeatest mode in an attempt to garner sympathy from the public.

 

In other words, what he is really hoping is that you will feel sorry for him and tell him what a great guy he is in spite of his hypocritical remarks. Then he can again justify participating in this forum. He doesn't really mean it when he says he is going to stop posting.

 

What Haridham doesn't seem to realize is that false humility does not earn real respect. Real respect, even if one disagrees with others, can only be earned by showing genuine respect. The attitude of, "I belong to [insert name of religious organization here], so let me just turn my nose and look down at all the poor, stupid fools whose practices are unknown to me and thus they are silly and superstitious," will not help anyone. All this does is earn disdain for one's self, one's family, one's guru, and even one's sampradaya.

 

I would suggest that this individual, and others like him, spend more time studying the texts of their respective traditions, rather than inviting ridicule or scorn of other traditions which they obviously do not understand. But, if my experience holds true, he will be back with more of the same, probably after getting the self-affirmation he desires from his friends (either that or after convincing himself that everyone who disagrees with him is a demon of one kind or another).

 

[Guest guest]

I think you really dont like Haridhama because he exposes things about others and yourself which upsets you.

 

 

Sure he might do it in the right way but you sure have it in for him.

 

C'mon, whats the real reason.

 

I mean if you are a real vaisnava or hindu or whatever you claim to be then would have not responded with this but instead of showed compassion.

 

Maybe he was sent by someone to truly expose you.

 

Krpa Sindhu Das.

 

 

[vanamali]

Don't think! The time is right for You

To walk amidst the shadows, beneath

The fullness of the autumn moon.

 

Don't think! The mind hides from You

Behind tattered garments of faded silk

Saying "I am not Yours, I am not Yours

 

"She is Yours. My dwelling place

Is far below the dust of this earth!"

This is truth. But don't think!

 

Every night the truth is reborn

Don't hide yourself from Him, sister

You are not a creature of this world

 

If you want to be truly humble

Leave your groveling at the appropriate time

Leave the soiled garments of yesterday's body

 

Remember who you really are

 

~vanamali

 

[Guest guest]

dont lose heart. You are welcome here and know that you are not offending everyone. There are a lot of people out there who dont understand you and although you should not offend them you are still welcome here.

 

 

I cant believe some of the reply's here as someone is showing you an emotional part of their side and nobody is responding with anything which will help him. If we are devotees here then lets take care of each other!

 

What exactly happened? A problem with some other member or something.

 

 

Jai Prabhupad.

[Guest guest]

"There does exist passages in the Upanisads that state that brahman is nothing"

 

You're not understanding upanishads, they don't promote voidism.

[Guest guest]

Are you perfect guest?

 

Do you chant or read Prabhupads books?

 

Do YOU realise you are not a Hindu?

 

Krpa Sindhu Das

[Guest guest]

"the existence of the non existence is contraddictory and cannot be demonstrated"

 

Gita 9.19

 

O Arjuna, I control heat, the rain and the drought. I am immortality, and I am also death personified. Both being and nonbeing are in Me

 

I believe there's more on this in Uddhava Gita?

 

All contradiction rests nicely in Krishna.

[Guest guest]

this nonbeing is from material point of view... many times vedic scriptures use negative assertion where it is opportune to say that something does not exist in material sense but they still do not want to speak of the existence in the spiritual plane

 

it is like to say that krsna is nirguna... with no qualities

 

taken vedic teachings as a whole, it is easy to understand that krishna is nirguna because he has no material qualities, not that he has no qualities at all

 

in the purport of 9.19 prabhupada points especially on the fact that krishna is both matter and spirit

 

http://www.asitis.com/9/19.html

[Guest guest]

Am I the perfect guest??

I was led to believe that this was a forum of debate not a forum of patting each other on the back. As the sun reaches its height it begins to decline so does knowledge, our very nature as beings that are flawed should warn us that it is impossible for anyone person to know everything and that only through debate the mind can be opened to a little of that understanding, it is when debate ceases that the human mind falls.

 

No I do not chant Pradhupads books or any other book. I read them and try to understand them by critising their flaws. There exists three books in Vedanta that are essential to all vedantins, The Upanisads, The Bhagavad gita, and the Brahma Sutras (Vedanta Sutras). Only three books exist but there are more than 10 opposing interpretations of those books.

If there was a mirror and the sun, Sankara would say the reflection was an illusion and only the sun existed. Ramanuja would say that the reflection was an extension of the sun's light but existed different to the sun but part of it. Madhva would say that the reflection existed completely different from the sun but that it depended on the sun for its existence. All 3 people have different views but they all discuss the same mirror and sun.

 

What is a HINDU????

 

tat tvam asi

[Guest guest]

What is a HINDU????

 

someone who lives in (h)India or who cames from it and he's not jainist or muslim

[Guest guest]

Matter is part of maya, but let us take your argument because it is something that I hinted at as being the reality of samsara before. Yes, matter is eternal in that it never ceases but merely changes form, the tapas and sattva rearrange themselves with the catalyst of rajas. However, this is not what I mean by eternal, what I mean is that nothing stands still, everything is constantly changing. When something says, ‘I am eternal’, it automatically ceases to be eternal because it is now ‘I am eternal’ different from what was before the utterance. Only nothing is eternal because it does not change, it is the only substance that is timeless. Krsna is merely a manifestation of maya, it is why he did not say, ‘I am brahman’ because he is not.

Arjuna’s word is as good as Krsna’s??? Then why is it that Krsna feels the need to teach Arjuna? If Arjuna was perfect then there would be no need for Krsna to depart knowledge to him, unless Krsna was deliberately trying to lead Arjuna astray and there is plenty of evidence in the Mahabrahata that that was the case but that is another debate that I don’t want to go into and I am aware that it would offend too many people that I have no desire to offend.

 

Where did brahman, param brahman, krsna… come from???

And saying they were always there is not logical. I have attempted to show a logical argument based on my interpretation of scripture. By associating brahman with nothing and showing how nothing is both existence and non-existence simultaneously I have kept to scripture and provided a logical explanation to it that would stand up in the modern world.

 

“I see many things and I experience many things… so this nothing does not exist, because at least my vision and experience, even if conditioned, exists”

… Now who is being the crypto-Buddhist??? According to your argument Krsna and Arjuna do not exist because you have no experience of it. What is written in the Gita, the Vedas, the Upanisads, cannot exist because you have no experience of it. Try meditation my friend, begin by realising that everything is illusion conditioned by our senses. There is no sound, it is merely atoms vibrating against atoms that our brain interprets as sound, there is no sight because it is merely the reflection of light off particles so small our eyes cannot perceive them, it is our brain that determines what the image is. By closing each of your senses off this way you are left with only mind. Concentrate the entire mind on focussing the universe into a single point of pure consciousness. Now how big is the point? And where does that consciousness come from? Focus on entering that point and the universe will rush past you and you will experience pure consciousness and light but then if you are meditating correctly you will lose the concept of self enter into pure space, empty nothingness and deep darkness that connects the entire universe, the entire matter of the universe is floating in that emptiness but at the point of no return something inside you, like every atom and molecule that makes the illusion of self will grab at your biggest desire, the one desire that cannot be denied, life, and pull you back from the abyss. This is experiencing true brahman, the light is purusa and you pass through purusa.

 

You look into a pot and see its bottom, you think it is empty but in reality it is full. Your mind refuses to accept the possibility that nothing is not empty. Nagarjuna said that even empty was empty and this is your view. I am saying that nothing is not emptiness, it only appears to be so. In reality nothing is that which is both existence and non-existence.

 

There is more void in an atom than matter. Without void not even ether could move.

 

I think therefore I am, I am therefore I think… I exist therefore I think. Nothing exists.

 

And brahman desired to know what it was… the one was alone and was afraid it desired to divide and be manifold.

 

The cosmos is the body of brahman so that brahman may experience, in order to answer that question ‘who am I?’

Dharma is dutiful action carried out to maintain the universe, to maintain rta. If Krsna is brahman and not maya, and brahman knows everything, then why is it that Krsna appears to restore Dharma in order to maintain the universe?? If the universe was created by he who examines so that he could experience and answer the question of ‘who am I?’

 

You answered your own question… in nothing there’s no part and no whole, no reality and no illusion, no creation, no source of creation, no creative intelligence… What is brahman??? No part??? No illusion??? I am not saying we exist, I am saying we are part of maya, illusion. We and our thoughts only exist within the illusion but the very nature of illusion means that in reality we do not exist, only nothing exists and does not exist.

Krsna is maya.

 

I exist in bliss with no desires and I act upon impulse because I realise I too am maya. As Ramakrishna suggested, knowing we too are maya, is it not better to simply let go and be, because nothing we do will ever change the fact that we are maya. By realising all is maya including ourselves then samsara ceases to be anything other than maya also, and moksa is achieved… jnana yoga.

Who am I? I am Krsna, but then so are you.

 

Tat tvam asi

 

[Guest guest]

A hindu who is someone who considers India both his mother land and holy land.

 

Jains consider themselves to be non-orthodox Hindus.

 

what about Buddhists (Asoka for example) or Sikhs???

 

I am a drop of rain in the sea of humanity, does that make me a Hindu??? maybe, maybe not

 

tat tvam asi

[Guest guest]

brahman in the upanisads is merely truth, it is not until vedantin scholars started to examine them that the concept of brahman as an absolute emerged. There is plenty of references to brahman in the upanisads as being truth. The ultimate truth is to know one's self. Try rereading some of them and substituting the word brahman with the word truth.

 

Language limits our conception of the truth.

 

A white horse is not a horse. A horse includes concepts of black horses, brown horses, etc. A white horse only includes horses that are white, so how can 'white horse' = 'horse' when they mean two different things, so therefore a white horse is not a horse.

 

 

[vanamali]

Actually the only 100% Hindu country is Nepal. Interesting /images/graemlins/blush.gif)