Over 50 ? So when are YOU gonna take Sanyasa ,my dear Prabhu?

[Guruvani]

 

Nobody used the phrase "take varna or asrama" or even implied it.

Whether it's natural for somebody to become homeless after fifty is a cultural question. It doesn't work in the Western cultures, where that 'natural' asrama is not recognized. This is not Vedic culture and the idea of walking around in saffron robes (an Indian custom hardly natural to North America) is impractical and weird.

If it's natural then the whole discussion is moot. People will 'naturally' enter into these varnas and asramas. No need of instruction or social pressure.

In any case - it's all material prabhu.

 

nicely said.

nicely said.

 

that was well spoken and very practical thinking.

 

I like that very much.

 

I guess there are some pragmatic and practical thinking people around this forum after all.

 

I can't accomodate these cult fanatics anymore.

 

Krishna consciousness has to be relevant to western society or it has no future.

[Guest guest]

Sanyassi is an asrama, and the title not only implies taking something, it actually says it.

 

But Im not arguing here. A loin cloth and a water pot and a bamboo staff doesnt go well in the west. But that does not mean that one cannot be an actual sanyassi. Preaching selflessly, controlling the six urges, all of this stuff is practical even in the modern world. In fact, my post derided the idea of phony drewss, pretense, etc. So I get agreement, yet some think im opposing. Oh well, so much for agreeing. In this age, there is no difference in agreement and disagreement, both bring on the incessant discord.

 

Haribol, ys, mahaksadasa

[Guest guest]

You said "One doennt "TAKE" and varna or asrama"

You are disagreeing with the terminology. I disagree that the system is applicable in this day and age. It is NOT natural. Besides everybody is sudra or lower. So where is the question of varna-asrama?

 

 

Sanyassi is an asrama, and the title not only implies taking something, it actually says it.

 

But Im not arguing here. A loin cloth and a water pot and a bamboo staff doesnt go well in the west. But that does not mean that one cannot be an actual sanyassi. Preaching selflessly, controlling the six urges, all of this stuff is practical even in the modern world. In fact, my post derided the idea of phony drewss, pretense, etc. So I get agreement, yet some think im opposing. Oh well, so much for agreeing. In this age, there is no difference in agreement and disagreement, both bring on the incessant discord.

 

Haribol, ys, mahaksadasa

[Guruvani]

 

One doennt "TAKE" and varna or asrama. These are natural catagories.

 

"taking sannyasa" has been used by Srila Prabhupada in his books and lectures many times.

You attacked the use of the terminology "taking sannyasa" as if somebody on this forum invented the term.

 

Yes, when one formally accepts sannyasa from another formal sannyasi it is referred to as "taking sannyasa".

 

Becoming a sannyasi is more important than "taking sannyasa" formally.

 

so, that is what we are saying.

We are not interested in "taking sannyasa" someday, but in actually becoming "sannyasi" someday.

 

so, Srila Prabhupada used the term "taking sannyasa" so, you don't have to get your skivies all in bunch when somebody uses the old phrase "taking sannyasa".

[krsna]

 

"taking sannyasa" has been used by Srila Prabhupada in his books and lectures many times.

You attacked the use of the terminology "taking sannyasa" as if somebody on this forum invented the term.

 

Yes, when one formally accepts sannyasa from another formal sannyasi it is referred to as "taking sannyasa".

 

Becoming a sannyasi is more important than "taking sannyasa" formally.

 

so, that is what we are saying.

We are not interested in "taking sannyasa" someday, but in actually becoming "sannyasi" someday.

 

so, Srila Prabhupada used the term "taking sannyasa" so, you don't have to get your skivies all in bunch when somebody uses the old phrase "taking sannyasa".

 

 

etam sa astaya paratma-nistham

adhyasitam purvatamair maharsibhih

aham tarisyami duranta-param

tamo mukundangri-nisevayaiva

 

 

"I shall cross over the ocean of material existence, which is extremely difficult to cross by becoming fixed in serving the lotus feet of Mukunda and by taking complete shelter of Him. This is approved by the previous great saints and sages who were fixed in devotion to the Supreme Lord." (Bhag.11.23.57)

 

A man should take sannyasa with only one intention and that is to dedicate his full energy to serve Guru and Krsna.

 

At the time of taking sannyasa both the tridandi-sannyasi and the babaji-sannyasi receive the same mantra, gopi-bhava mantra. This mantra is sometimes called the raga-marga mantra and this gives one entrance into the service of Sri Sri Radha Krsna in the mood of the residents of Vraja. In this way there is practically no difference between the tridandi-sannyasi and the babaji-sannyasi.

Another consideration as to what path of renunciation one will take may largely depend upon one's nature and capability. Those who have got more energy, who are comfortable with being in the forefront of an assembly etc may find that they are more suited for tridandi-sannyasa, while those with a less assertive nature, who do not feel confident leading the Vaisnava assembly may find that they are more suited for babaji-sannyasa. In any case, after the age of fifty a man must seriously make plans to accept the renounced order of life. :smash: :smash:

 

So please go ahead and take it my dear Prabhu

 

Do It!

[Guruvani]

 

 

So please go ahead and take it my dear Prabhu

 

Do It!

 

 

I have not the least interest to do any such thing.

[Guruvani]

my interest is to assist the good preachers who are far more qualified than me.

It is very hard for me to find someone to get behind nowadays, but probably I would have to say that I like the position of B.G. Narasimha Maharaja a lot.

 

I think he has got a great situation going there.

 

I know he is not a ritvik, but that doesn't matter.

Any sannaysi that breaks away from ISKCON rightly should become diksha guru.

I like Tripurari Maharaja a lot too, but I am a confused about his status.

 

Otherwise, I appreciate T Swami a lot.

 

Why should I take sannyasa when there are so many more qualified preachers already doing that.

 

I do want to build a small but very traditional style Mandira here in Florida someday and maybe have like a retirement community for devotees here near Crescent Beach.

 

But, I will need some investors to pull that off.

 

I doubt that I will ever really get to Costa Rica, though it is a very beautiful country that would make a great place to retire and do bhajan.

 

Probably, I will stay in Florida and make some pilgrimage to India now and then when I get the chance.

 

I think that being a sannyasi in America is not the advantage it was when Mahaprabhu took sannyasa.

 

I could see myself in white kurta and yogi pants running a retirement home for old devotees.

 

We have to do something here in the USA.

 

Retiring in India is not practical or desirable for a lot of western devotees.

 

Florida is the retirement capital of the USA.

 

So, a devotee retirement center in Florida is inevitable someday.

[Laulyam]

A second point is that it is highly disgraceful for unqualified people to adopt the dress of brahmacaris, tyagis, or sannyasis, to imitate their behavior, and to consider themselves equal to great personalities situated in those asramas. Such people are like Srgala Vasudeva, the jackal who impersonated Sri Krsna, and whose narration has been described in Srimad-Bhagavatam, Harivamsa, Caitanya-Bhagavata, and other sastras. People who are situated in a lower stage, and who are attached to the path of fruitive action, should first curb the deplorable tendency towards lust by becoming lawfully married according to religious principles. The purpose of the sastra is to guide all living beings toward the path of detachment.The Brahma-vaivarta Purana (Krsna-khanda 115.112-113) states:

 

 

 

asvamedham gavalambham sannyasam palapaitrkam

 

 

 

devarena sutotpattim kalau panca vivarjayet

 

In Kali-yuga five activities are forbidden: the offering of a horse in sacrifice,the offering of a cow in sacrifice, the acceptance of sannyasa, offering flesh to the forefathers, and begetting children through a husband’s brother.

Some people try to establish on the basis of this sloka that the acceptance of sannyasa is forbidden in Kali-yuga. However, this sloka has a hidden intention. The purpose of this sloka is not to forbid sannyasa altogether. Indeed, many great personalities who appeared in Kali-yuga were tyagis or sannyasis, including Sri Ramanuja, Sri Madhva, Sri Visnu-svami, and other acaryas who were well acquainted with all the sastras, as well as the crown jewels of all acaryas, the Six Gosvamis, who were bhaktas of Sri Gaura.

The pure succession of sannyasa is continuing, even today. The injunction against accepting sannyasa in Kali-yuga actually means that it is improper to accept the ekadanda-sannyasa that evolved from the unauthorized line of thought propagated by Acarya Sankara, and which is expressed in maxims such as so ‘ham (I am that brahma) and aham brahmasmi (I am brahma). It is this type of

sannyasa that has been forbidden.

Tridanda-sannyasa is the real, perpetual sannyasa, and it is applicable at all times. Sometimes tridanda-sannyasa externally appears in the form of ekadanda-sannyasa. Ekadanda-sannyasis of this type, who are actually great souls, accept the eternality of tridandasannyasa that symbolizes the three features of sevya (the object ofservice), sevaka (the servitor), and seva (service). Such people consider the ekadanda-sannyasa propagated by Sankara to be completely unauthorized and not supported by sastra. It is therefore proven, even on the basis of the Brahma-vaivarta Purana sloka cited by smarta acaryas, that it is logical for sadhakas who are pursuing the nivrtti-marga to accept sannyasa.

[Laulyam]

Yadava dasa: If grhastha-bhaktas are so highly respected and dear to everyone, why do some of them renounce household life?

Ananta dasa: Some grhastha-bhaktas are eligible to renounce their household life, but such Vaisnavas are very few in this world, and their association is rare.

Yadava dasa: Kindly explain how one becomes eligible to renounce household life.

Ananta dasa: Human beings have two tendencies: bahirmukhapravrtti, the outward tendency; and antarmukha-pavrtti, the inward tendency. The Vedas refer to these two tendencies as being focused outwards towards the external world and focused inwards towards the soul.

When the pure spiritual soul forgets his true identity, he falsely identifies the mind as the self, although the mind is really only a part of the subtle material body. Having identified with the mind in this way, the soul takes assistance from the doorways of the senses, and becomes attracted to the external sense objects. This is the outward tendency. The inward tendency

is exhibited when the stream of consciousness reverts from gross matter back into the mind, and from there to the soul proper.

One whose tendency is predominantly outward must conduct all external tendencies offenselessly with Krsna at the center, through the strength of sadhu-sanga. If one takes shelter of krsnabhakti, these outward tendencies are quickly curtailed and converted to the inward tendency. When the direction of one’s tendency is completely inward, the eligibility to renounce household

life is born, but if one gives up household life before this stage is reached, there is a significant danger of falling down again. The grhastha-asrama is a special school where the jivas may receive instructions regarding atma-tattva, spiritual truth, and be given the opportunity to develop their realization of such matters. They may leave the school when their education is complete.

Yadava dasa: What are the symptoms of a bhakta who is eligible to give up household life?

Ananta dasa: He should be free from the desire to associate with the opposite sex; he should have unrestricted mercy toward all living entities; he should be completely indifferent towards endeavors to accumulate wealth, and he should strive only in times of need to acquire food and clothing suitable for maintaining himself. He should have unconditional love for Sri Krsna; should shun the association of materialists; and should be free from attachment and aversion in life and death. Srimad-Bhagavatam (11.2.45) describes these symptoms as follows:

 

 

 

sarva-bhutesu yah pasyed bhagavad-bhavam atmanah

 

 

 

bhutani bhagavaty atmany esa bhagavatottamah

 

One who sees his own mood of attraction for Sri Krsnacandra, the Soul of all

souls, in all jivas, and who also sees all living entities residing within the shelter

of Sri Krsna, is an uttama-bhagavata.

In Srimad-Bhagavatam (3.25.22), Bhagavan Kapiladeva describes the primary characteristics of sadhus:

 

 

 

mayy ananyena bhavena bhaktim kurvanti ye drdham

 

 

 

mat-krte tyakta-karmanas tyakta-svajana-bandhavah

 

Those who worship no one but Me, and who thereforeengage in firm and

exclusive devotion unto Me, give up everything for My sake, including all

duties prescribed in varnasrama-dharma and all relationships with their wives,

children, friends, and relatives.

It is also stated in Srimad-Bhagavatam (11.2.55):

 

 

 

visrjati hrdayam na yasya saksaddharir

 

 

 

avasabhihito ‘py aghaugha-nasah

 

 

 

pranaya-rasanaya dhrtanghri-padmah

 

 

 

sa bhavati bhagavata-pradhana uktah

 

If one utters, even without intent, sri-hari-nama in an offenseless mood,

at once heaps of sins accumulated through many lifetimes, are destroyed.

Such a person thereby binds Sri Hari’s lotus feet within his heart with ropes

of love and is considered the best of bhaktas.

When these symptoms are manifest in a grhastha-bhakta, he is no longer suited for engagement in karma, and he therefore renounces household life. Such nirapeksa-bhaktas (renunciants) are rare, and one should consider himself extremely fortunate to attain their association.

Yadava dasa: These days, young men often renounce household life and adopt the dress of the renounced order. They establish a place for sadhus to congregate, and begin to worship the Deity of the Lord. After some time, they fall into association with women again, but do not give up chanting hari-nama. They maintain their hermitage by collecting alms from many places. Are such men tyagis or grhastha-bhaktas?

Ananta dasa: Your question raises several issues at once, but I will answer them one by one. First of all, eligibility to renounce household life has nothing to do with youth or old age. Some grhasthabhaktas are qualified by the samskaras acquired in this life and previous lives to give up household life even while they are young. For example, Sukadeva’s previous samskaras enabled him to renounce household life from the moment of birth. One should only see that this eligibility is not artificial. If real detachment awakens, then youth is not an impediment.

Yadava dasa: What is real renunciation and what is false renunciation?

Ananta dasa: Real renunciation is so firm that it can never be broken at any time. False renunciation arises from deception, dishonesty, and the desire for prestige. Some people make a false show of renunciation to gain the respect that is offered to nirapeksa-bhaktas who have given up household life, but such false detachment is futile and completely inauspicious. As soon as such a person leaves home, the symptoms of his eligibility for detachment disappear, and depravity sets in.

Yadava dasa: Does a bhakta who has given up household life need to adopt the external dress of a renunciant?

Ananta dasa: Nirapeksa-akincana-bhaktas who have firmly renounced the spirit of enjoyment purify the entire world, whether they live in the forest or remain at home. Some of them accept a

loincloth and worn and torn clothes as external signs to identify them as members of the renounced order. At the time of accepting this attire, they strengthen their resolve by taking a firm vow in the presence of other Vaisnavas who are in the renounced order. This is called entrance into the renounced order, or the acceptance of appropriate garments for renunciation. If you refer to this as bheka-grahana or vesa-grahana, the acceptance of the dress of renunciation, then what is the harm?

Yadava dasa: What is the purpose of being identified by the signs of the renounced order?

Ananta dasa: It is very helpful to be identified as a member of the renounced order. A renunciant’s family members will no longer maintain a relationship with him, and will easily give him up. He will no longer desire to enter his house, and a natural detachment will awaken in his heart, with a consequent fear of materialistic society. It is beneficial for some bhaktas to accept the outward signs of renunciation, though this may not be necessary if detachment from household life is fully matured. It is said in the Srimad-Bhagavatam (4.29.46): sa jahati matim loke vede ca parinisthitam, “A bhakta who has received the mercy of Bhagavan gives up attachment for all worldly activities, and for all ritualistic duties prescribed in the Vedas.”

There is no injunction for such bhaktas to accept the outward dress of renunciation. It is necessary only as long as there is some dependence on public consideration.

Yadava dasa: From whom should one accept the renounced order?

Ananta dasa: One should accept the renounced order from a Vaisnava who is situated in the renounced order. Grhastha-bhaktas have no experience of the behavior of renounced bhaktas, so they should not initiate anyone into the renounced order. The following statement of the Brahma-vaivarta Purana confirms this:

 

 

 

apariksyopadistam yat loka-nasaya tad bhavet

 

 

 

 

One brings ruination to the world if he instructs others in religious principles that he himself does not follow.

Yadava dasa: What criteria should a guru use to offer initiation into the renounced order?

Ananta dasa: The guru must first consider wether or not the disciple is qualified. He should see if the grhastha-bhakta, on the strength of krsna-bhakti, has acquired a spiritual temperament characterized by qualities such as full control of the mind and senses. Has the hankering for wealth and the satisfaction of the tongue been uprooted or not? The guru should keep the disciple with him for some time in order to examine him thoroughly, and he may initiate him into the renounced order when he finds that he is a suitable candidate. Under no circumstances should he offer initiation prior to this. If the guru offers initiation to a person who is unqualified, he will certainly fall down himself.

Yadava dasa: Now I see that it is no light matter to accept the renounced order; it is a serious undertaking. Unqualified gurus are turning this practice into a common affair. It has only just begun, and there is no telling where it will end.

Ananta dasa: Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu severely punished Chota Haridasa for a completely insignificant fault, just to protect the sanctity of the renounced order. The followers of our Lord should always remember the punishment of Chota Haridasa.

Yadava dasa: Is it proper to construct a monastery and establish the worship of a Deity after one has entered the renounced order?

Ananta dasa: No. A qualified disciple who has entered the renounced order should maintain his existence by begging every day. He should not involve himself in constructing a monastery or in

other grand enterprises. He can live anywhere, either in a secluded hut or in the temple of a householder. He should remain aloof from all affairs that require money, and he should constantly chant sri-hari-nama without offense.

Yadava dasa: What do you call renunciants who set up a monastery and then live like householders?

Ananta dasa: They may be called vantasi (those who eat their own vomit).

Yadava dasa: Then are they no longer to be considered Vaisnavas?

Ananta dasa: What benefit is there in their association when their behavior is contrary to sastra and vaisnava-dharma? They have given up pure bhakti, and have adopted a hypocritical lifestyle. What relationship could a Vaisnava have with such people?

Yadava dasa: How can one say that they have given up Vaisnavism, as long as they don’t give up the chanting of hari-nama?

Ananta dasa: Hari-nama and nama-aparadha are two different things. Pure hari-nama is quite distinct from offensive chanting that only has the external appearance of hari-nama. It is an offense to commit sins on the strength of chanting sri-nama. If one chants sri-nama and at the same time commits sinful activities, thinking that the power of sri-nama will exempt him from sinful reactions, he is committing nama-aparadha. This is not suddha-hari-nama, and one should flee far away from such offensive chanting.

Yadava dasa: Then is the domestic life of such people not to be considered Krsna-centered?

“Never,” Ananta dasa firmly said. “There is no room for hypocrisy in a Krsna-centered domestic life. There can only be complete honesty and simplicity, with no trace of offense.”

Yadava dasa: Is such a person inferior to a grhastha-bhakta?

Ananta dasa: He is not even a devotee, so there is no question of comparing him with any bhakta.

Yadava dasa: How may he be rectified?

Ananta dasa: He will be counted amongst the bhaktas again when he gives up all these offenses, constantly chants sri-nama, and sheds tears of repentance.

Yadava dasa: Babaji Mahasaya, grhastha-bhaktas are situated under the rules and regulations of varnasrama-dharma. If a grhastha is excluded from varnasrama-dharma, is he not barred from becoming a Vaisnava?

Ananta dasa: Ah! Vaisnava-dharma is very liberal. All jivas have the right to vaisnava-dharma; that is why it is also known as jaivadharma. Even outcastes can take up vaisnava-dharma and live as grhasthas, although they are not part of varnasrama. Moreover, people who have accepted sannyasa within varnasrama, and have then fallen from their position, may later adopt pure bhakti by the influence of sadhu-sanga. Such people can become grhastha-bhaktas, although they are also outside the jurisdiction of varnasrama regulations. There are others who abandon varnasrama-dharma due to their misdeeds. If they and their children take shelter of suddha-bhakti by the influence of sadhu-sanga, they may become grhastha-bhaktas, although they are also outside varnasrama. So we see that there are two kinds of grhastha-bhaktas: one who is part of varnasrama and one who is excluded from varnasrama.

Yadava dasa: Which is superior of these two?

Ananta dasa: Whoever has the most bhakti is superior. If neither has any bhakti, then the person who is following varnasrama is superior from the vyavaharika, or relative, point of view, because at least he has some religious principles, whereas the other is an outcaste with no religious principles. However, from the paramarthika, or absolute, spiritual perspective, both of them are

fallen because they have no bhakti.

Yadava dasa: Does a grhastha have the right to wear the garments of a mendicant while he is still a householder?

Ananta dasa: No. If he does, he is guilty on two counts: he cheats himself and he cheats the world. If a grhastha adopts the dress of a mendicant, he simply affronts and ridicules genuine mendicants who wear the dress of the renounced order.

Yadava dasa: Babaji Mahasaya, do the sastras describe any system for accepting the renounced order?

Ananta dasa: It is not clearly described. People of all castes can become Vaisnavas, but according to sastra, only those who are twice born can accept sannyasa. In Srimad-Bhagavatam (7.11.35), Narada describes the separate characteristics of each of the different varnas, and then concludes with this statement:

 

 

 

yasya yal-laksanam proktam pumso varnabhivyanjakam

 

 

 

yad anyatrapi drsyeta tat tenaiva vinirdiset

 

A person should be considered to belong to the varna whose characteristics

he possesses, even if he has appeared in a different caste.

The practice of offering sannyasa to men who, although born of other castes, possess the symptoms of brahmanas, is occurring on the basis of this verdict of the sastras. If a man born of a different caste truly possesses the symptoms of a brahmana and is given sannyasa, then it must be avowed that this system is approved by sastra.

This verdict of the sastras supports the practice of offering sannyasa to men who possess brahminical symptoms, even though they are born of other castes, but it only applies to paramarthika affairs, and not to vyavaharika affairs.

Yadava dasa: Brother Candidasa, do you have the answer to your question?

Candidasa: Today I have been blessed. Of all the instructions that have flowed from the mouth of the most revered Babaji Mahasaya, these are the points I have been able to assimilate. The jiva is an eternal servant of Krsna, but he forgets this and takes on a material body. Influenced by the qualities of material nature, he derives happiness and distress from material objects. For the privilege of enjoying the fruits of his material activities, he must wear a garland of birth, old age, and death.

The jiva sometimes takes birth in a high position and sometimes in a low position, and he is led into innumerable circumstances by his repeated change of identity. Hunger and thirst spur him to action in a body that may perish at any instant. He is bereft of the necessities of this world, and is cast into unlimited varieties of suffering. Many diseases and ailments appear, which torment his body. In his home, he quarrels with his wife and children, and sometimes he goes to the extent of committing suicide. His greed to accumulate wealth drives him to commit many sins. He is punished by the government, insulted by others, and thus he suffers untold bodily afflictions.

He is constantly aggrieved by separation from family members, loss of wealth, theft by robbers, and countless other causes of suffering. When a person becomes old, his relatives do not take care of him, and this causes him great distress. His withered body is ravaged by mucus, rheumatism and a barrage of other pains, and is simply a source of misery. After death, he enters another womb and suffers intolerable pain. Yet despite all this, as long as the body remains, his discrimination is overpowered by lust, anger, greed, illusion, pride, and envy. This is samsara.

I now understand the meaning of the word samsara. I repeatedly offer dandavat-pranama to Babaji Mahasaya. The Vaisnavas are gurus for the entire world. Today, by the mercy of the Vaisnavas, I have acquired real knowledge of this material world.

When the Vaisnavas present had heard Ananta dasa Babaji Mahasaya’s profound instructions, they all loudly exclaimed, “Sadhu! Sadhu!”

 

 

 

 

 

[krsna]

Great quotes from Sripad Laulyam. He's giving us all some greed for spiritual pertfection.

 

Yadava dasa: If grhastha-bhaktas are so highly respected and dear to everyone, why do some of them renounce household life?

Ananta dasa: Some grhastha-bhaktas are eligible to renounce their household life, but such Vaisnavas are very few in this world, and their association is rare.

Yadava dasa: Kindly explain how one becomes eligible to renounce household life.

Ananta dasa: Human beings have two tendencies: bahirmukhapravrtti, the outward tendency; and antarmukha-pavrtti, the inward tendency. The Vedas refer to these two tendencies as being focused outwards towards the external world and focused inwards towards the soul.

When the pure spiritual soul forgets his true identity, he falsely identifies the mind as the self, although the mind is really only a part of the subtle material body. Having identified with the mind in this way, the soul takes assistance from the doorways of the senses, and becomes attracted to the external sense objects. This is the outward tendency. The inward tendency

is exhibited when the stream of consciousness reverts from gross matter back into the mind, and from there to the soul proper.

One whose tendency is predominantly outward must conduct all external tendencies offenselessly with Krsna at the center, through the strength of sadhu-sanga. If one takes shelter of krsnabhakti, these outward tendencies are quickly curtailed and converted to the inward tendency. When the direction of one’s tendency is completely inward, the eligibility to renounce household life is born, but if one gives up household life before this stage is reached, there is a significant danger of falling down again.

 

The grhastha-asrama is a special school where the jivas may receive instructions regarding atma-tattva, spiritual truth, and be given the opportunity to develop their realization of such matters. They may leave the school when their education is complete.

[Guest guest]

Over the years unqualified Iskcon devotees taking sannyasa made a mockery of that asrama. To some extent the mockery continues. They could take points from Swaminarayan sannyasis which are far more conservative and traditional in their vows.

[Guest guest]

 

Over the years unqualified Iskcon devotees taking sannyasa made a mockery of that asrama. To some extent the mockery continues. They could take points from Swaminarayan sannyasis which are far more conservative and traditional in their vows.

Trying to observe all the minutiae of Vedic culture withiout the wider supporting framework of a Vedic society is preposterous.

I see so many devotees living in this fantasy of a bygone era in I find it disturbing. It certainly could never attract me and I hardly feel compelled to do so. It has deterioted into a 'period' play of pious observances without substance. They become more engrossed in all the artificial and impratical requirements (like going into the forest) than real spiritual progress.

What seems to completely elude them is that the varna-ashrama dharma is karma-kanda and totally material. The true 'karmis' are the one trying to derive blessings precisely by following the presribed duties of this system. That would be the Indian congregation without which ISKCON would collapse.

I pray every day that the congregation withdraw its support so the devotees can once again become serious about preaching.

[Guest guest]

 

Trying to observe all the minutiae of Vedic culture withiout the wider supporting framework of a Vedic society is preposterous.

I see so many devotees living in this fantasy of a bygone era in I find it disturbing.

 

At least if they want to live in a fantasy land they should make sure everybody knows it is a role playing game and not the real life

 

Seriously though, sannyasis living like royalty, with big bank accounts in Switzerland, globe trotting in business class, all while pretending to be the know-it-all spiritual guide for the world, ARE a joke. I certainly think there is room for sannyasa in our movement but not the way it is currently done.

[Guruvani]

When it comes to sannyasa, those who enter that order of life in the Krishna consciousness movement should remember to follow the intructions of Srila Prabhupada in this regard and not try to imitate him.

Srila Prabhupada had to accept a lot of things for the purpose of spreading the Krishna consciousness movement all over the world, but that should not be imitated.

 

Nowadays we have too much imitation and not enough following of instructions.

That mode of life was adopted immediatly after the passing of Srila Prabhupada the chosen ones the "big 11" and has been perpetuated down to the present day.

 

If there are going to be sannyasis around the movement, then this imitating the Maha-Bhagavat has to stop and sannyasis should be required to live the austere and sacrificing lives they should live to fulfill the mission of sannyasa.

 

Spoiled and pampered sadhakas who take sannyasa for position and social status in the movement will never make the kind of spiritual advancement they need to actually be spiritual leaders of society.

 

The movement needs to create situations where men can live the kind of austere and devoted lives they need to live to actually be spiritual leaders of society and this prototype of the silken-robed jet-set Swami has to reserved exclusively for the Maha-Bhagavat who founded ISKCON.

 

Why would any sincere spiritual person want to join the ranks of the fraud renunciants of today's ISKCON?

[stonehearted]

 

When it comes to sannyasa, those who enter that order of life in the Krishna consciousness movement should remember to follow the intructions of Srila Prabhupada in this regard and not try to imitate him. . . .

 

The movement needs to create situations where men can live the kind of austere and devoted lives they need to live to actually be spiritual leaders of society and this prototype of the silken-robed jet-set Swami has to reserved exclusively for the Maha-Bhagavat who founded ISKCON.

 

Why would any sincere spiritual person want to join the ranks of the fraud renunciants of today's ISKCON?

I think there may be such situations inside ISKCON and in other missions as well. They may not, however, be typical. I've met some nice sannyasis, even though I'm pretty isolated. Paramadvaiti Maharja has told me that the sannyasis in his mission are the hardest working devotees in South America. He trains them to see themselves as servants of the other devotees.

[krsna]

 

I think there

May be such situations inside ISKCON and in other missions as well. They may not, however, be typical. I've met some nice sannyasis, even though I'm pretty isolated. Paramadvaiti Maharja has told me that the sannyasis in his mission are the hardest working devotees in South America. He trains them to see themselves as servants of the other devotees.[/quote]

 

"He trains them to see themselves as servants of the other devotees."

 

Yes, this is the missing point for those who fail to take sannyasa properly. It is the ultimate act of selflessness whereas remaining in household after 50 life is selfish, isn't it?

[Guruvani]

 

remaining in household after 50 life is selfish, isn't it?

let me explain.

 

I still have a 13 year old daughter to raise.

I have no wife.

My best friend is a brahmachary named Nitai Prasada (my son)

 

Why should I worry about sannaysa?

I don't even have a wife.

 

I have been without wife for over ten years now.

 

Sannaysis have it easy compared to me.

 

Taking sannyasa would be a step down on the ladder of austerity for me.

 

Why would I want to go from being a sacrificer to being an enjoyer in the name of sannyasa?

 

Besides that, sannyasa has almost NO importance or effect in the USA.

 

Why would I want to become a sannyasi and become despised by the community of devotees?

 

Do you think people respect sannyasa nowadays?

 

Nowadays sannyasa is just seen as a front for some of the most vicious and selfish people in the movement.

 

I don't want anything to do with that situation.

[stonehearted]

 

Yes, this is the missing point for those who fail to take sannyasa properly. It is the ultimate act of selflessness whereas remaining in household after 50 life is selfish, isn't it?[/quote]

 

Well, I think this shows something missing in your understanding of household life and sannyasa, for Gaudiya vaishnavas. They are both supposed to be platforms for dedication of our work, words, minds, and souls to the service of the Supreme Lord. As we've seen discussed here, and seen in our practical lives, those dressing as sannyasis can be selfish and materialistic. And those in family life can be quite selfless and austere. Our ideal is to cultivate love, and love means giving (not taking). Family life is a great opportunity for learning to give selflessly, to love unconditionally. Even though his marriage may not have worked as well as he wanted, Ksamabuddhi took whatever jobs he could get to take care of his children. In the meantime, he hasn't abandoned his aspiration to develop love for Krishna. Sannyasa is more about attitude than dress. If someone with the right attitude acceptts the vesha of a sannyasi in order to dedicate his life exclusive to service, wouldn't that be a nice thing, for him, the society of devotees, and the world? Wouldn't it be nice if steady, mature, progressive devotees took to such a life of dedication, even after long, happy marriages, and that somehow the rest of the society of devotees, and the greater society as well, were able to develop greater regard for that ashram?

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

Do you think people respect sannyasa nowadays?

If Gaudiya Vaishnava sannyasa, due to the respect the position commanded, was introduced/reintroduced by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati for the sake of preaching/distribution, then it stands to reason that, today, in the Western world, Vaishnavas ought to be getting their Ph.D.'s.

[muralidhar_das]

 

My best friend is a brahmachary named Nitai Prasada (my son)

 

Nice name.

I have a son named Nitai Sharan

[Guest guest]

 

If Gaudiya Vaishnava sannyasa, due to the respect the position commanded, was introduced/reintroduced by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati for the sake of preaching/distribution, then it stands to reason that, today, in the Western world, Vaishnavas ought to be getting their Ph.D.'s.

 

It's an interesting perspective.

 

Let alone getting their Ph.D.'s, Vaishnavas should first develop a respectable attitude towards honest work, and earning the living in a respectable way instead of all these get-rich-quick schemes, living off welfare, or doing the pick. That attitude is part of our social problems.

 

We could also start presenting Krsna consciousness in a less bombastic way, realising our own failures to solve various social problems. Humility is supposed to be a virtue we all need to cultivate.

 

As to the scholarly development - we could also start with our own tradition. The ignorance in this area is truly monumental, even among our leaders.

[krsna]

 

It's an interesting perspective.

 

Let alone getting their Ph.D.'s, Vaishnavas should first develop a respectable attitude towards honest work, and earning the living in a respectable way instead of all these get-rich-quick schemes, living off welfare, or doing the pick. That attitude is part of our social problems.

 

We could also start presenting Krsna consciousness in a less bombastic way, realising our own failures to solve various social problems. Humility is supposed to be a virtue we all need to cultivate.

 

As to the scholarly development - we could also start with our own tradition. The ignorance in this area is truly monumental, even among our leaders.

 

Here is a nice article that is pertinent to this thread:

 

 

 

Is Sannyasa Forbidden in Kali Yuga?

by

Swami B. V. Giri

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sannyasa in Kali Yuga

 

 

 

 

Some time ago, a sannyasi who could not maintain his vows of renunciation wrote an apologetic letter on the internet addressed to his disciples and friends wherein he explained the numerous reasons why he could not continue in the renounced order of life.

In order to excuse his weakness, the apologetic sannyasi quoted a verse from the Brahma-vaivarta Purana to substantiate his opinion that Sannyasa is not meant for the people of Kali-Yuga.

 

 

 

 

asvamedham gavalambham sannyasam palapaitrkam

devarena sutopattim kalau panca vivarjayet

 

 

 

 

 

“Five things are forbidden in the age of Kali – horse-sacrifice, cow-sacrifice, acceptance of sannyasa, offering flesh to the forefathers and begetting a child in the womb of the wife of one’s elder brother.”

(Brahma-vaivarta Purana, Krsna-jnama Khanda

185.180).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Regrettably, by quoting this verse from the Brahma-vaivarta Purana as evidence that the sannyasa-asrama is ineffective in Kali-yuga, our former sannyasi has inferred that his own spiritual master, Srila Prabhupada, as well as his parama-guru, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura and all other great acaryas like Sri Ramanuja and Sri Madhva were misguided or even foolish for having accepted sannyasa and having awarded sannyasa to their disciples in Kali-yuga.

 

The now retired sannyasi has unwittingly fallen into the clutches of the anti-devotional parties who use this very same argument against Srila Sarasvati Thakura and his pure representatives. The anti-devotional parties argue that in the Caitanya-caritamrta, Sri Caitanyadeva Himself quotes this verse indicating that even if one has the qualities of a sannyasi, it is not recommended in the age of kali.

However this verse was quoted by the Lord in connection with cow killing during his conversation with the Chand Kazi, and not in connection with sannyasa. Furthermore, soon after His dialogue with the Kazi, Mahaprabhu traveled to Katwa in order to take sannyasa Himself from Sri Kesava Bharati. We also find that when Mahaprabhu resided in Purusottama-dhama, many of His close associates were sannyasis. Sri Svarupa Damodara, Paramananda Puri, Ranga Puri, Visnu Puri, Brahmananda Bharati, Kesava Puri, Govinda Puri, Sukhananda Puri, Brahmananda Puri, Nrsingha Puri, Nrsingha Tirtha and others were all in the renounced order of life. Mahaprabhu’s own diksa-guru Sripada Isvara Puri Gosvami was also a sannyasi, so how could Mahaprabhu possibly be against the acceptance of sannyasa in kali-yuga?

In the book, The Golden Staircase, Srila Sridhara Deva Gosvami Maharaja explains what type of sannaysa has been forbidden in this present age.

“The answer is explained in Sri Caitanya-caritamrta. This is a general question not only for the Gaudiya sampradaya, but also for the followers of Ramanuja, Madhvacarya, and even Sankaracarya. The Buddhists may not care for the directions of the Puranas, but the Sankara school and the Vaisnava schools accept sannyasa. Sankara was a sannyasi and for the most part his successors were all sannyasis as well. This is true of Ramanuja also, Madhvacarya, and the Visnusvami sampradaya also.

The interpretation is this: in this present age, sannyasa in the strict sense of karma-sannyasa is forbidden. Karma-sannyasa means that you leave everything, and that type of sannyasa is not possible in this present age. It is described in the sastras that in Satya-yuga, as long as a man’s bones exist, that is how long he will live. Along with the longevity of the bones, the life will be there. In Treta-yuga, life may be maintained by the nervous system; but it is stated that in kali-yuga ‘kalav-annagatah pranah’ – one’s longevity depends on food. Therefore sannyasa in the strict sense is not possible in kali-yuga.

Previously, Valmiki was engaged in tapasya for so many years that the insects captured his whole body and reduced his flesh into earth, yet he remained present within his bones. Then later, by the help of some spiritual miracle his whole body was restored. But in this present age, without food it is not possible to live. All penances have been especially adjusted for kali-yuga, and the only continuous fast allowed in this present age is for twenty-four hours - not more than that. In other ages, at least twelve days fasting was generally done. If a person had done anything wrong, then according to the smrti-sastra, twelve days fasting was the standard punishment for any sins. But in kali-yuga, twenty-four hours fasting is the maximum because without food a man cannot survive.

If he were to take karma-sannyasa while being so extremely dependent on material giving and taking, then he wouldn’t be able to maintain his existence. But the life of Vaisnava tridandi-sannyasa, which is not very extreme – take prasadam, do service – is a sort of modified form based on yuktahara viharas ca, and one living according to this principle can take sannyasa.

Mahaprabhu took sannyasa, Sankaracarya, Ramanuja – all the pioneers of the different sampradayas took sannyasa. That has been interpreted as karma-sannyasa, but still, sannyasa is of several kinds. There is also vidvat-sannaysa, which is considered by the salvationist section to be the highest. Their idea is that when one has fully realized that his connection with this material realm is a negative one, he will finish his material encasement and enter into the spiritual sphere. When he is fully established in this firm consciousness that ‘my connection with the material world will be injurious to me,’ he will then relinquish his body and go away to the spiritual sky. That is vidvat-sannyasa.

There is also narottama-sannyasa:

yah svakat parato veha

jata-nirveda atmavan

hrdi krtva harim geyat

pravrajet sa narottamah

In the narottama system of sannyasa, one has realized the presence of or existence of God within his heart, and thinking of Him, he leaves his present engagement and duties of the household and remains outside, anywhere and everywhere – under a tree or in a cave or wherever – careless of his physical needs. He does not immediately relinquish his body, but he takes whatever food he gets and when he does not get any food he fasts, and in this way he goes on. He leaves his household for good; that is narotttama-sannyasa.

And there are also different stages of sannyasa mentioned in the sastra: kuticaka, bahudaka, hamsa and paramahamsa progressively. But tridandi-sannyasa is when the sannyasi engages himself in the service of Godhead by spreading His message and doing some good to the public, and that characteristic is different. It is categorically different. The tridandi-sannyasi is not adopting an attitude or tactic of leaving all the engagements of this world as a result of becoming disgusted with its many temptations. Rather, he is engaging himself in the higher duty of the upper world through an agent, so his body has got utility. Remaining here, maintaining connection here, he is drawing some higher thing from above and distributing that in the environment. That is another conception of sannyasa, and it has positive value.

This is a similar engagement to that performed by the Lord’s closest associates. When an incarnation of God comes down, His favorite parsadas, His friends and servitors, are also sent by Him to come down to do some service to help Him. There are also sub-agents who have received some engagement from the higher agent, and by moving within this world in that capacity, they can earn more spiritual wealth than those who are very eager to disconnect completely from this material plane. They want to try to utilize their connection with this mundane plane to earn some substantial wealth of the upper house. So like the Lord’s parsadas, the tridandi-sannyasis want to work as God’s agents.”

Although members of the anti-devotional parties and their unwitting dupes attempt to condemn the sannyasa-asrama by using the verse from the Brahma-vaivarta Purana, the following verse from the same Purana has conveniently escaped their attention.

dandam kamandalum rakta-vastram matranca dharayet

nityam pravasi naikatra sa sannyasiti kirttitah

“A sannyasi accepts only a danda, water-pot, and saffron-cloth and resides near a village – this is the wealth of the sannyasa asrama.”(Brahma-vaivarta Purana 2.36.9) In fact, throughout the vast body of Vedic literature, only one verse can be found wherein the sannyasa order is apparently forbidden in the age of kali. In all the other sastras that were written for the people of this present age a man is repeatedly urged to take up sannyasa.

 

 

 

 

brahmacari grhastho va mrtadaro vanecarah

jnatva samyak param-brahma tyaktva sangan-parivrajet

 

 

 

 

 

“After he has come to understand the nature of the Supreme, a student, a householder, or a forest-hermit should become detached and become a wandering mendicant.” (Smrti-sastra)

 

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura desired to reinstitute the system of daivi-varnasrama and with this in mind took up the tridanda of a sannyasi to preach the sublime message of Sri Caitanydeva all over the world. It is bewildering that one can claim to be a follower of Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Svami Prabhupada, in the line of Srila Sarasvati Thakura and in the same breath imply that sannyasa has no value in today’s society!

 

Indeed, it is lamentable that in this age many men have taken up the garb of renunciation and later discarded it to enter family life. What is even more unfortunate is that when such persons cannot admit that the fault lies with themselves they instead vilify the sannyasa-asrama as being impractical, useless, or even dangerous in kali-yuga. Such a ‘sour-grapes’ philosophy betrays a significant lack of faith in Sri Guru, the sattvika-sastras, the Vaisnavas and Sri Caitanyadeva who has Himself accepted the sannyasa-asrama in the age of kali. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura accepted sannyasa for the purpose of preaching Krsna consciousness all over the world and he passed that on to his disciples who in turn passed that on to their Godbrothers and disciples who in turn passed that on to their disciples, and who in turn passed that on to their disciples. Therefore the conclusion is that if a man wants to preach Krsna consciousness and serve his Gurudeva with all his energy then he should certainly take sannyasa. This is called sadhu-vrtti, following in the footsteps of great acaryas.

 

[Guest guest]

In at least one other school of Hinduism, in a different tradition, they feel that most people do not have the past life vrittis and samskaras [impressions and mind patterns] to enter into the renounced order of life in this lifetime.

 

How they determine who is eligible is they pay alot of attention to astrology, in particular the Sannyasa Upanishad. This Upanishad very clearly delineates

what planets you need to have in what houses in order for such a step to be a complete success and to not become a total travesty and farce.

 

 

 

In this tradition they also think that at the end of this lifetime, most people can attain a great deal of self-realization, namely stages which correspond to-- at the very least--Brahman and Paramatma realization in Vaisnavism.

 

The scope and sequence they suggest for most people is: student life to age 24 or brahmacharya, grhastha life to age 48 or married, then vanaprastha life from age 48 to 72. Their idea of vanaprastha life is a person is living their life serving others, using all of their wisdom and experience, like a wise elder.

 

 

 

So within the context of this tradition, Sriman Pujyapada Guruvani Prabhuji would actually be considered properly situated for an old soul and sincere sadhaka. He is rendering selfless service to take care of, nurture, guide, and be a mentor to the younger generation and that's what wide elders are supposed to be doing from age 48 on.

 

When you think about also, Prabhupada said that "Your children are your Deities". So to take very nice care of one's children, lifelong, is auspicious even by the standard of your own Srila Prabhupada.

 

And in India has a saying, "Mother, Father, and Teacher are like God to you." So also there is room for reciprocation. His kids don't have to worship and get attached to, and become fauning sychophants--or worse--to some kook so-called Sannyasi Charlatan/ bogus Zonal Acharya Exploiter who then commits all sorts of sins and abominable activities, lengthening everyone's tenure in samsara instead of reducing it.

 

 

 

These rites of passages correspond with movements of different planets, especially the planets which takes many years to go through one cycle. So by dividing into cycles of age 24, 48, 72 then is a natural way in which sincere souls in the human form of life who are old souls progress through life and deepen their sincerity and wisdom. Is arranged by the Devas and our guardian angels for us. Growing old is a type of tapasya.

 

 

 

In the other tradition basically they feel like most people will not have the astrological chart in which would be a well-advised and well-thought out plan to enter into sannyasa ashrama, therefore it is not encouraged. And for those who do have the astrological chart, as delineated in the Sannyasa Upanishad, for such a lifestyle, is advised as a lifelong process of purity.

 

In other words, they have a self-sufficient monastery for the men in which to live and absolutely no female association at all lifelong. They only accept male candidates who took a teenage vrata of chastity and never had any contact with woman and accept no one past the age of 25.

 

Then from age of about 18, 19, 20 the prospective candidates gradually

are tested to see how compatibly they can live with others in the monastery. They take different vratas for 6 months, one year, two years and so on, and have the opportunity to bow out or renew their vows.

 

They are carefully watched and groomed because they know it will destroy so many lives if people who are unqualified are given sannyasa even if they beg for it or jump into the fire sacrifice pit, or whatever pushy thing some people who are only into it for the pratistha have done in the past. It will destroy so many lives, not only of the priests but also the parishioners.

 

 

 

In the monastery they progress from sadhaka to tapasvin to ashvin to yogi to sannyasa candidate and must be ten years of training to get to sannyasa level. No one is a prima donna and all the monastery members must rotate their duties so that no one gets attached even to a certain position within the monastery that would produce false ego ahamkara or I Me Mine-ness.

 

So according to this tradition, there are a variety of ways that sincere sadhakas can progress and most people will live within a family or extended family context and even within such a setting they can deepen their internal mati or cognition. And if is a single person then they serve the community also by helping families. And all help the monastics. And the monastics serve the community, the congregations, and the world.

 

All around it is a nice reciprocation and exchange because everyone is properly situated and no one is harangued and lambasted and humiliated to feel that family life is so bad, or being single is a failure etc. Is like a nice ecosystem with many natural niches for everyone in the congregation.

 

So just be natural, life is a natural thing and part of an organic process. You don't want to be a living example of "Fools rush in where angels fear to tread" or "Take Sannyasa in Haste, Repent At Leisure"> what's the sense in that?

 

There's two kinds of people in this world: some people teach us what not to do and some people teach us what to do. So seems like would be good idea to examine those sampradayas where there are more householders and less sannyasis in their tradition but is more stable situation and as such less of a farce. And some will feel happiest as bhajananandis and that's okay, too.

[krsna]

 

. It is bewildering that one can claim to be a follower of Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Svami Prabhupada, in the line of Srila Sarasvati Thakura and in the same breath imply that sannyasa has no value in today’s society!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Memories from Srila Prabhupada's Personal Servant:

 

 

You know my story? Tea or me?

As I perched by his side on his bed during his evening massage, squeezing and

kneading his hips, thighs, calves and feet, Prabhupada told me how he left home.

He told me that despite the fact we criticize everyone without exception we are

still expanding and going forward. He laughed, "I was even criticizing my own family!"

I asked if he used to instruct them, and he said that because they were used to

thinking of him merely as husband or father they were unable to take his

instruction seriously. "You know my story? Tea or me?" he asked.

"No, Srila Prabhupada," I said, intrigued and eager to hear.

He gave a chuckle. "My wife, she was fond of drinking tea. So one day I told

her, 'Either you give up your tea drinking or you give up your husband.' 'Oh,

then I'll give up my husband.' Of course she thought I was joking," he went on,

"but a few days later I left the house without telling anyone. I borrowed ten

rupees from a friend and bought a train ticket and I never returned."

"Where did you go?"

"Somewhere -- anywhere!" he laughed. He never saw his wife again.

 

In 1959 he

took sannyasa and began to write his books, and in 1965, after the third volume

of the First Canto of Srimad-Bhagavatam had been published, he left for

America. His second son later told him, "When we learned you had taken

sannyasa, it was like a thunderbolt to us!":pray: