Apology

[vanamali]

I am experiencing some spiritual setbacks, and I think it may be because I have offended some of you devotees.

 

I offer you my utmost apology if I have upset any of you. Please forgive me. I am desparate.

 

Thank You,

vanamali

[Avinash]

I do not know about others, but I personally do not remember having read any post from you which I could consider as offensive. I am not making this statement just to make you happy. I had really read any offensive post from you, then I would not have made this post.

 

You have written "...I think it may be because I have offended some of you devotees."

 

The usage of the words "may be" indicates that you yourself do not remember offending anyone. Then, why worry? Just relax. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[vanamali]

I don't remember offending anyone, but I'm really in a fix here. So just in case, I'm trying to cover all my bases. The influence of devotees can be very powerful.

 

 

[theist]

You haven't committed any offense here that I am aware of. I for one like reading reading your posts because they are intelligent and non-offensive in tone.

 

It is of course good to be so vigilant about offending vaisnava's but don't let the mind invent things for you and trick you into unesscessary feelings of despair.

 

Set backs often come because we are struggling with old conditioning. This forum should be a way of offering strength to each other during those times. Perhaps it is an indication that you are very sensitive to the flow of your sadhana, the ups and downs that inevitably show up.

 

It is a great art to remain balanced amidst the movements of the three guna's.

 

I agree with Avinashji, please feel more relaxed.

 

Haribol sister soul

[Govindaram]

 

You are friendly person, if you may have offended somebody I hope they can forgive you, or you can ask Lord Nityananda to forgive you/help you, don't take our word for it, start praying. Sometimes we offend devotees even without knowing it, so its great to be alert, experience is a great thing, we learn from our mistakes, but prevention is also better than cure. Good luck.

[vanamali]

Thank You. It's good to know that I'm doing okay, at least here in the virtual world. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

I liked that "Haribol sister soul" part.

 

Jai Sri Krishna!

 

/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Govindaram]

 

If you are having any 'problems' with Bhakti-yoga please say, its not good to hold back, I hope you have somebody to TALK to, thats what association is about, encouraging one another. I pray that you get 'going' again, somebody once said to me, Prabhuji at least chant 1 round a day, I was think huh 1 round? I want to do 16 rounds! I am an arrogant fool, start again, thats the only adive I can give.

[Guest guest]

Well, if you really must know, I thought the following was harsh:

 

 

You know something?

 

I came to this forum thinking association with other devotees could be a form of "virtual satsang"

 

I am now realizing that the only thing you guys can do is argue about the details of religion. You guys are addicted to intellectual-philosophical elements, but not in a good way. There's always some argument going on in this forum.

 

If you are really comfortable with yourself and your religion, you don't feel the need to critisize others, because you do not feel threatend when others believe differently than you.

 

If the situation here doesn't improve, I will have to stop coming here, because this is not satsang, in fact, quite the opposite.

 

 

 

However, it seems to be the case in forums like these that when someone wants to think deeply about something, others will criticize one for debating things he or she does not personally understand. The underlying sentiment seems to be, "I'm intelligent enough, so if I don't understand what they are talking about, it can't be any problem with my lack of knowledge... rather, they are to blame for being too intellectual-philosphical. Never the mind that they have not provoked me in any way, let me just tell them to their face what I think about them."

 

But anyway, most people are like that here. So I was not expecting an apology, and in fact others will probably cheer you on when you make comments like this. This is yet another unfortunate consequence of the mentality of "bhakti has nothing to do with logic... we aren't supposed to think... just accept..." etc.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

the ego tries to hide behind an apology. Beware! You are apologizing because it makes you feel good, not because you are sad that you've offended people. See the diff.?

 

Regards,

Ahmed

 

p.s.

You've offended me a couple of times, but I am willing to forgive you. In fact, I am even willing to tolerate you.

[livingentity]

the ego tries to hide behind considering yourself offended.

 

 

the ego tries to hide behind an apology.

 

 

You are speculating here about her motives. It is you who should beware!

 

Beware! You are apologizing because it makes you feel good, not because you are sad that you've offended people. See the diff.?

 

 

 

What? Oh, please!

 

You've offended me a couple of times, but I am willing to forgive you. In fact, I am even willing to tolerate you.

 

 

Vanamali prabhuji:

 

You are a sweet and gentle soul whose posts are most appreciated here. The two examples of some guest considering themselves either offended or harshly spoken too are in my humble opinion rediculous and petty especially considering the things that are most often posted on this forum. Much of the time posted by "guests" so who knows who is speaking here, right?

 

Ok, guests...come and get me. Beat me up. I ain't afraid of no stinkin guests!! /images/graemlins/mad.gif

[ancient_paztriot]

Conspiracy?

 

noun, ies.

1. The act of conspiring; secret planning to do something wrong, especially a wrong against a government, public personage, etc.

 

2. a combination of persons for an evil or unlawful purpose; plot.

 

3. An agreement by two or more persons to act unlawfully.

 

I think this pretty much sums up our business in this world. There is little else: We conspire against Krsna, we conspire against each other, we conspire against ourselves. Conditioned life means you/we are conspirators.

 

It takes two to conspire? I don't think so.

 

How about what you do for that paycheck? Is that a conspiracy?

 

"Hey! I'm just doing what I'm told! It's my job. [subconsciously: (You smuck!)]" /images/graemlins/frown.gif

 

Nor does the so-called preaching of many participants here have any benefit… little more than doubts and delusions. Shameless repetition. "I don't care" is Govindaram's ad… like he thinks that's a preaching basis.

 

I save myself the trouble and don't read these folks. This technique will have to be learned to deal with them later when there are more people seeking inquiry here.

 

I probably don't know what I'm talking about. I guess the moderators can prove me wrong. Anyway, I know I can't get sucked in now.

 

Think "conspiracy".

 

I'm not missing that TV. /images/graemlins/smile.gif (I'm a conspirator for saying that).

 

Fixing A Hole

 

I'm fixing a hole where the rain gets in

And stops my mind from wandering

Where it will go

I'm filling the cracks that ran through the door

And kept my mind from wandering

Where it will go

And it really doesn't matter if I'm wrong I'm right

Where I belong I'm right

Where I belong.

See the people standing there who disagree and never win

And wonder why they don't get in my door

I'm painting my room in the colourful way

And when my mind is wandering

There I will go

And it really doesn't matter if I'm wrong I'm right

Where I belong I'm right

Where I belong.

Silly people run around they worry me

And never ask me why they don't get past my door

I'm taking the time for a number of things

That weren't important yesterday

And I still go

I'm fixing a hole where the rain gets in

And stops my mind from wandering

Where it will go – Beatles

[Guest guest]

 

the ego tries to hide behind an apology. Beware! You are apologizing because it makes you feel good, not because you are sad that you've offended people. See the diff.?

 

Regards,

Ahmed

 

 

 

I think she is apologizing because she genuinely feels she is experiencing the bad results of her previous actions. I'm guessing that is something you do not understand.

 

Anyway, I've said what I wanted to say. I don't really care anymore. Lots of people offend me on this list. I just learn to deal with it. I doubt if the Lord is going to send His sudarshana chakra to punish those who "offend" me. That would imply that I am on the level of a sudAma vipra or the like, which I most certainly am not. Though it's usually the case that when someone annoys me, it's usually because they are being really, really purile... i'm certainly not going to scold them with remarks like "oh, you are so offensive! be careful you do not offend my lotus feet!" etc

 

Likewise, I can assure vanamali that while *one* of her posts on *one* thread annoyed me, I very much doubt this is what is responsible for her present misfortunes. Similarly, I don't hold to the view that because someone is not a mahAbhAgavata, that it is therefore ok to offend them.

 

Raghu

[theist]

Perhaps criticism contains a valuable lesson that the false ego steals from us by feeling hurt or offended. Not that that the other person's motivate was totally pure. That's not the point. If we become absorbed in the false ego's reaction to anything, praise or blame, then we will miss the Voice behind the voice, and His calling to us to return home.

 

Besides I have been in this material world for eons exploiting others. Why should I get huffy if someone calls me on it once in a while.

 

And vanamali, remember its not just what you receive here but also what you contribute, which has been nice so far.

[Govindaram]

 

We should all stick together, simple arguments happen, but we should always maintain polite etiquette, thats Vaishnava Standard, I wonder what the No.1 Rule of it is?

[Avinash]

the ego tries to hide behind an apology.

 

I disagree. There are many who have so much of ego that they consider it below their status to apologize.

 

You are apologizing because it makes you feel good

 

It is greatness if apologizing makes one feel good. Those who have too much of ego will never feel good in making an apology.

 

not because you are sad that you've offended people.

 

You seem to think that feeling sad on offending someone and feeling good in apologizing are mutually exclusive. But, in reality, they can always go hand in hand.

 

You've offended me a couple of times, but I am willing to forgive you. In fact, I am even willing to tolerate you.

 

This kind of response shows ego.

[Avinash]

To all of you who might have offended me intentionally or non-intentionally: -

 

You people are very bad.

 

I know that the above sentence is offensive. This means that you offended me and I have now offended you. So, we are equal. Now, no grudges. Let us all feel good. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[vanamali]

I think it's all too easy in the "virtual world" to forget to watch your words. It's so easy to just say whatever we feel without worrying too much about how our words will be taken.

 

Govindaram, I would love to say what is the problem I'm having with bhakti yoga, but it is rather too sensitive an issue to mention here. I do not have anyone I am comfortable talking with here. I guess I have to work through it alone.

 

Anyway, as for the above replies, the kind ones and sharp (by unidentified guest) ones are both appreciated. Anyway, if I've hurt your tender flower-like hearts I'm truly sorry prabhujis.

 

Jai Sri Krishna!

~Vanamali

[xxvvii]

What's wrong with you?

[theist]

>>I do not have anyone I am comfortable talking with here. I guess I have to work through it alone.<<

 

 

We are never alone. There are two birds sitting in this tree.

 

Hare Krsna

 

[vanamali]

True dat

 

/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[xxvvii]

You accept & support skt2 constructed by the gram., subh-aSin pronun., dv3 font, & etc., & you can get some subsequent adv. from it. Don't fancy too much I'll pay as I would lose a lot appendant.

[i_luv_krishna]

---> However, it seems to be the case in forums like these that when someone wants to think deeply about something, others will criticize one for debating things he or she does not personally understand.

 

If I am not offending you, I would just like to say that logic and humility are not contrary or mutually exclusive qualities. However, generally, behind the logic often lies a sense of achievement, not necessarily reflection or a sense of being reasonable. This I can say, with all humility, because I have done all this "logic" game for a good length of time and for which I have nothing to be proud of.

[Guest guest]

 

I would just like to say that logic and humility are not contrary or mutually exclusive qualities.

 

 

I would agree wholeheartedly. Just as I also agree that because one person shows a better grasp of logic on a given point, it does not follow that he is necessarily not humble.

 

 

However, generally, behind the logic often lies a sense of achievement, not necessarily reflection or a sense of being reasonable. This I can say, with all humility, because I have done all this "logic" game for a good length of time and for which I have nothing to be proud of.

 

 

Well, I can't comment on your situation. All I know is that one cannot have intellectual Krishna-based discussions with ordinary colleagues at work who neither read nor appreciate sAstra. This is something one can only do with other devotees. Yet time and again it is seen that deep thinking and polite discussion become a threat to those who wish to have nothing to do with either, yet cannot resist the temptation to simply flame away, even if they were not initially involved in the discussion.

 

[i_luv_krishna]

 

I would agree wholeheartedly. Just as I also agree that because one person shows a better grasp of logic on a given point, it does not follow that he is necessarily not humble.

 

 

 

Althought, the necessity does not follow deductively, it is usually seen to be so. Language and its usage is a very powerful tool, and it can give a fairly correct impression of the the state of the writing mind.

 

 

Well, I can't comment on your situation. All I know is that one cannot have intellectual Krishna-based discussions with ordinary colleagues at work who neither read nor appreciate sAstra. This is something one can only do with other devotees. Yet time and again it is seen that deep thinking and polite discussion become a threat to those who wish to have nothing to do with either, yet cannot resist the temptation to simply flame away, even if they were not initially involved in the discussion.

 

 

 

If the debating party is flaming, a safe way out is to step backwards, notwithstanding all claims of chivalry and public good. Internet forums are not a good place for such a display. A third party interference is meant to be ignored unless it is severely disruptive.

 

However one cannot assume that people, just being devotees, have a natural affinity for logic and deep study of shastra. Some may have even come to escape from these. For these kind of people, it is, in my humble opinion, wrong to thrust one's own ideas of philosophy and religion and to barge in with a challenge they are not interested in. The world is full of different people with different dispositions. I would assume if God were to declare that people having neither the capacity nor the interest in logic and deep study of Shastra, but fairly interested in His name, worship, discussion of pastimes and a few generalized instructions, are not meant to be delivered, then that God, by any standards, seems not worthy of His stature. I would assume He has His ways for everybody, and certainly for the pandits setting the philosophical standards. It is another matter that the standards never seem to settle down when taken to the extremities.

 

So if a blind man were to, by an educated guess, jump correctly, he would still be safe.

 

However, if you wish to strengthen your skills of debate. This following link would be appropriate:

 

vadavali/

 

[Guest guest]

 

Althought, the necessity does not follow deductively, it is usually seen to be so. Language and its usage is a very powerful tool, and it can give a fairly correct impression of the the state of the writing mind.

 

 

 

The question is, "seen" by whom? Needless to say, the noisiest ones are also the same ones to attack the character of any they disagree with. Those who have something substantial to say are more likely to stick with facts rather than personal attacks.

 

 

However one cannot assume that people, just being devotees, have a natural affinity for logic and deep study of shastra.

 

 

...which is not the point. But being devotee does mean being *loyal* to shAstra. It's one thing to say "I don't know," or "I didn't know that was in shAstra." But it's another thing to say, "well so what if that's in shAstra, I didn't agree with you before, and now that you have proven your point, I can't change my mind since I already made it up, so the conclusion is that you you are an envious snake...."

 

 

For these kind of people, it is, in my humble opinion, wrong to thrust one's own ideas of philosophy and religion and to barge in with a challenge they are not interested in.

 

 

Again, this is all relative. Being a public forum, anyone has a right to post, and this will continue to be the case until this forum becomes "invitation only." One who does not like probing questions can go elsewhere. Telling the person who questions to go elsewhere is the equivalent of anti-intellectualism. Of course, if that's where we are going with this, i.e. "not everyone likes to be loyal to scripture, so let's protect them by sending people like you somewhere else," then let's just admit that and be done with it.

 

 

However, if you wish to strengthen your skills of debate. This following link would be appropriate:

 

vadavali/

 

 

 

I go there too. It's a much more nicely run forum, where people stick to philosophy instead of petty character attacks.

 

It concerns me, however, that on forums like Audarya, people continue to drag my religion into the mud by associating the icons of my religion (i.e. bhagavad-gItA) with non-vedic concepts (i.e. "i like marijuana, so my Vedic project will allow people to smoke it" or "I used to be a christian, therefore jesus is an incarnation of Krishna"). If this could cease happening, then I could care less about being here.

 

You've got it all wrong. The problem is not that some people don't like deep philosophy or debate. The problem is that some people don't like scripture, and prefer to promote their personal opinions in the name of "Vedic culture,Vedic literature," etc. Of course, if we are sympathetic to such individuals, we can always label anyone who objects as an intellectual snob, thus knocking down a strawman while continuing to encourage mental speculation.