theist Posted May 18, 2004 Report Share Posted May 18, 2004 http://www.audarya-fellowship.com/showflat/cat/hinduism/77197/2/collapsed/5/o/1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AncientMariner Posted May 18, 2004 Report Share Posted May 18, 2004 Christians do the same thing to Christ. They say Christ is out of reach and we cannot communicate with him. What is the use of prayer if you are not able to communicate with a higher intelligence. I just don't understand this sort of thinking but it appears that it is firmly rooted into the institution of Iskcon so I will continue to sing my praises for Srila Prabhupada and I suppose they will keep telling me I can't get any benefit from reading Srila Prabhupada's books. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2004 Report Share Posted May 18, 2004 You must also have a present Guru to guide you, not for just for Diksa, but to actually render service to. ------ This statement attempts to relegate Prabhupada to an out of reach position. Just a foul remnant of the zonal acarya fraud. "No way to Prabhupada but through me." -----if the "present guru" principle was used for years to cheat devotees it is not that is in itself a fraud. For 500 years the devotees had "present" gurus and, when the gurus was no more present, they continued his service to him through another vaishnava taken as siksa guru Consider this. Guru is not his body. But he is his vani, his instructions -----guru is vani and vapu, not only vani, not only vapu But do you think Prabhupada is buried in his samadhi at Krsna Balarama Mandir in Vrndaban? ----if we praise prabhupada but we do not follow his instruction also in guru tattva, we are burying the real prabhupada to follow another prabhupada of our invention ou are stating that Prabhupada's disciples can no longer render service to him because he is not here in the same form as before? This is obnoxious to hear ---guru/disciple relationship is based on interactivity... question, answer, service, chastisement, seeing and learning from the behaviour etc. When there's no more this interactivity, we have to find it with another vaishnava. In this way we continue to serve our disappeared spiritual master. It is not a strange thing, everyone in gaudya vaishnava sampradaya, is doing like that . Even in iskcon, so close to the association with elder vaishnavas not belonging to the organization, you can hear the gurus saying that they consider some godbrother their siksa guru. In full or not, this principle is everywhere.. a book cannot chastize and we cannot fully communicate with one who is not acting in our dimension One day when you come back you find that he has left the body that was visible to your eyes. Are you suggesting that if you continue going to the marketplace daily to preach as you were instructed it is no longer service? ---things change, in the market you can have to face new situations and challenges... and you need a guru to ask advices about the new situations. And if the market closes? You can no more communicate with the departed guru and ask "now what is my service?"... etc. You serve guru by fullfilling his stated will. ---if he's departed.. how we can understand his will if not for generic matters? This sounds like disciples of___ who always approach Prabhupada's disciples telling them that now Prabhupada is gone so you can only serve him now by serving their guru who still has a 'physical'body. So offensive. ---it is offensive if these devotees preach like this with fanaticism and pride... the principle, even if you have said it in such rude way, is exact and accepted in all vaishnavism, included IskCon but in a basic way in the general feeling that siksa guru is less than diksa, thing that is not true . . . i do not want that a devotee accept anyone as a master because present guru is necessary, but it is really better to pray krsna to send us a vaishnava for personal guidance. There's not a bigger pleasure like the freedom to have accepted a personal guidance, to have at not early age, a qualified person who can treat us as little pupils and chastize us when it is necessary. Even seeing this person for some days or weeks , gives the sense to serve in separation for the rest of the year. i am very sorry that, seeing the present guru situation in iskcon, we are so frightened by the guru to prefere to live only with books, cds, tapes, videos and so on. imagine, when prabhupada was present, going to him and say "i do not need your guidance and initiation because bhaktisiddhanta is still alive.." jaya prabhupada Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Govindaram Posted May 18, 2004 Report Share Posted May 18, 2004 This sounds like disciples of___ who always approach Prabhupada's disciples telling them that now Prabhupada is gone so you can only serve him now by serving their guru who still has a 'physical'body. So offensive. Here is my rant: /images/graemlins/wink.gif I would like to make it clear what I was saying, that you need to serve devotee in any capacity, whether present here {they are in Goloka} or here on this planet, neglecting devotees is not Vaishnava Etiquette, the disciples of Srila Prabhupada have been linked toward Caitanya 'The Sankirtana Movement', so how else are we supposed to establish this link? I did not suggest we forget about Prabhupada, as you said whenever we chant, or do other service its because of Prabhupada that we do it, so where is the questions of forgetfulness? Also Guru is representative of Caitanya-Guru within the Heart, he is in body, Jesus Christ came in body, but that is different, in our Sampradaya we have a bona-fide disciplic succession, I mean we are superior in everyway, this is not sentimental, it's a fact, there are no flaws in Krishna Consciousness, but we are creating them, in Christianity I believe you must approach Priest, Now they have the same problem, who is the Pure Priest, does he eat meat etc? Jesus Christ disciples need to be pure. Hope I am correct in this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2004 Report Share Posted May 18, 2004 Christians do the same thing to Christ. They say Christ is out of reach and we cannot communicate with him --actually it is the opposite... christ is the only one, there's no other master and so on.... What is the use of prayer if you are not able to communicate with a higher intelligence. ---prayer is not enough if we cannot get and recognise an answer. Actually we do not communicate.. these higher intelligence who are in the spiritual world are out of reach for us. Communication means "you speak, i answer, you correct me, i express doubts, you answer.." and so on I suppose they will keep telling me I can't get any benefit from reading Srila Prabhupada's books. ---this thing can obviously said for cheating purpose... but reading prabhupada books has not much sense if we do not follow instructions... "tad viddi pranipatena..." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AncientMariner Posted May 18, 2004 Report Share Posted May 18, 2004 Srila Prabhupada is not out of reach for anyone. That is the cheating going on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2004 Report Share Posted May 18, 2004 so let us go together to make some questions to His Divine Grace.. where we can go? (if prabhupada were easily approachable we were not in this mess prabhu) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AncientMariner Posted May 18, 2004 Report Share Posted May 18, 2004 Sounds like the mess is a result of the people after Prabhupada not following Prabhupada's instructions. No reason to blame Prabhupada for lack of accessibility on that. As you said reading his books but not following his instructions doesn not make much sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted May 18, 2004 Report Share Posted May 18, 2004 Go to my post above and read LE's posts. If you can't do that or sign a name then you are just a pest wasting peoples time. ___ In my books the philosophy of Krsna Consciousness is explained fully so if there is anything you do not understand, then you simply have to read again and again. By reading daily the knowledge will be revealed to you and by this process your spiritual life will develop. (Letter to Brahmarupa Dasa, 22/11/74) Srila Prabhupada: Even a moments association with a pure devotee - all success! Revitananda: Does that apply to reading the words of a pure devotee? Srila Prabhupada: Yes Revitananda: Even a little association with your books has the same effect? Srila Prabhupada: Effect. Of course it requires both things. One must be very eager to take it. (Room Conversation, 13/12/70) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2004 Report Share Posted May 18, 2004 Sounds like the mess is a result of the people after Prabhupada not following Prabhupada's instructions instructions to approach pure devotees to have instructions No reason to blame Prabhupada for lack of accessibility on that no one is to blame... the guru disappears and he's obviously no more possible to approach if we are not transcendental As you said reading his books but not following his instructions doesn not make much sense. instructions to accept guidance from uttama adhikari vaishnavas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2004 Report Share Posted May 18, 2004 Go to my post above and read LE's posts. If you can't do that or sign a name then you are just a pest wasting peoples time. "pest wasting peoples time" only because i have a different opinion from yours? very kind... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2004 Report Share Posted May 18, 2004 it seems that prabhupada has come in the west to teach us that the guru is useless Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AncientMariner Posted May 18, 2004 Report Share Posted May 18, 2004 Paramahamsa: "My question is, a pure devotee, when he comments on the Bhagavad-Gita, someone who never sees him physically, but he just comes in contact with the commentary, explanation, is this the same thing?" Srila Prabhupada "Yes. You can associate with Krsna by reading Bhagavad-Gita. And these saintly persons, they have given their explanations, comments. So where is the difficulty?" (Morning Walk, Paris 11/6/74) "There is nothing new to be said. Whatever I had to say, I have already said in my books. Now you must try to understand it and continue with your endeavours. Whether I am present or not does not matter." (Vrindavan, 17/5/77) "If I depart there is no cause for lamentation. I will always be with you through my books and orders. I will always remain with you in that way." (BTG 13:1-2, December 1977 "If there is no chance to serve the spiritual master directly, a devotee should serve him by remembering his instructions. There is no difference between the spiritual masters instructions and the spiritual master himself. In the absence therefore, his words of direction should be pride of the disciple." (CC(1975 Ed) Adi 1.35) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2004 Report Share Posted May 18, 2004 all this said to some of his many thousand of initiated disciples..... it is not possible to use prabhupada to negate the need of a personal spiritual guidance . . . "Krsna is the first spiritual master, and when we become more interested, then we have to go to a physical spiritual master. That is enjoined in the next verse. Tad viddhi pranipatena pariprasnena sevaya, upadeksyanti te jnanam jnaninas tattva- darsinah. Now, Krsna advises that 'If you want to know that transcendental science, then you just try to approach somebody.' Pranipatena. Pranipatena, pariprasnena and sevaya. What is pranipata? Pranipata means surrender. Surrender. You must select a person where you can surrender yourself because nobody likes to surrender to anyone." (Srila Prabhupada lecture, August 14th 1966) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Govindaram Posted May 18, 2004 Report Share Posted May 18, 2004 it seems that prabhupada has come in the west to teach us that the guru is useless That sounds very harsh, but this is the general feeling some devotees are portraying, I think it stems in my heart-there is so much contradiction going on, one moment they say Prabhupada Vani is there so follow this, the next we are forgetting Prabhupada, you see? .. Where is the question of forgetfulness? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AncientMariner Posted May 18, 2004 Report Share Posted May 18, 2004 no I am just rejecting the notion that you are putting forth that Prabhupada is somehow not qualified to be a spiritual guide anymore just because he has departed from material vision. Actually now he is a spiritual guide for all time. There is nothing that can knock him down from that platform. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2004 Report Share Posted May 18, 2004 no I am just rejecting the notion that you are putting forth that Prabhupada is somehow not qualified to be a spiritual guide anymore just because he has departed from material vision i am sorry but this is your speculation... it is not that prabhupada is no more qualified, it is us that we are not qualified to speak with people living in goloka vrindavan. Even bhaktisiddhanta or six goswamis were not dead in 1970, but people was taking shelter in prabhupada. Actually now he is a spiritual guide for all time. like all acharya vaishnavas... through his successors... in spiritual consciousness, the more passages are there, more the messages gets sweet There is nothing that can knock him down from that platform. so do not try to knock him refusing his instructions to surrender to a spiritual master "What is pranipata? Pranipata means surrender. Surrender. You must select a person where you can surrender yourself because nobody likes to surrender to anyone." (Srila Prabhupada lecture, August 14th 1966)" ""God is called caitya-guru, the spiritual master within the heart. And the physical spiritual master is God's mercy. If God sees that you are sincere, He will give you a spiritual master who can give you protection. He will help you from within and without, without in the physical form of spiritual master, and within as the spiritual master within the heart." ""But here it is said clearly that 'You have to surrender to a person.' That means you have to find out such a person where you can voluntarily surrender. Without finding, your mission will not be fulfilled. Not only surrender, not blindly surrender. You must be able to inquire. Pariprasna. The next qualification is pariprasna. Pariprasna means inquiry. Without inquiry, you cannot make advance." (Srila Prabhupada's lecture on Bhagavad-gita 4.34, New York, 14 August, 1966)" ""One's first duty is to accept a bona fide spiritual master. The student or disciple should be very inquisitive; he should be eager to know the complete truth about eternal religion (sanatana-dharma). The words guru-susrusaya mean that one should personally serve the spiritual master by giving him bodily comforts, helping him in bathing, dressing, sleeping, eating and so on. This is called guru-susrusanam. A disciple should serve the spiritual master as a menial servant, and whatever he has in his possession should be dedicated to the spiritual master." (SB 7.7.30-31, purport)" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AncientMariner Posted May 18, 2004 Report Share Posted May 18, 2004 I know you don't like it but Srila Prabhupada is my spiritual master. Why do you want to keep trying to steal him from me? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livingentity Posted May 18, 2004 Report Share Posted May 18, 2004 I know you don't like it but Srila Prabhupada is my spiritual master. Why do you want to keep trying to steal him from me? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2004 Report Share Posted May 18, 2004 the insults game has no winners... if you say envious i can say that you want to enjoy and so you avoid a personal guide who can chastize you to have prabhupada means to follow prabhupada's instructions if we do not follow there's nothing to steal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livingentity Posted May 18, 2004 Report Share Posted May 18, 2004 hear something? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted May 18, 2004 Report Share Posted May 18, 2004 you mean that almost poltergiest tap tap tapping? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krsna Posted May 19, 2004 Author Report Share Posted May 19, 2004 http://www.prabhupadaconnect.comBhaktisiddhanta_Gold.JPG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krsna Posted May 19, 2004 Author Report Share Posted May 19, 2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krsna Posted May 19, 2004 Author Report Share Posted May 19, 2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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