krsna Posted May 18, 2004 Report Share Posted May 18, 2004 Why the hell should I take the karma of my disciples and suffer and run the risk of going to hell? Who needs the headaches and nightmares of other conditioned souls piled up in my being? Heck,I'll just pass up all that nasty karma to Prabhupada and avoid the whole karmic absorption . O.K.? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Govindaram Posted May 18, 2004 Report Share Posted May 18, 2004 Heck,I'll just pass up all that nasty karma to Prabhupada and avoid the whole karmic absorption . How do you plan on doing this? You will be the Proxy? Sorry I meant who will be the proxy /images/graemlins/smirk.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kulapavana Posted May 18, 2004 Report Share Posted May 18, 2004 most, if not all, of the past karma of the disciples is burnt away during the fire sacrifice (if done correctly). new karma of the disciples does affect the guru (to the extent Krishna wants it to be), but he is not ever in danger of going to "hell" because of it. I suggest you read the Bhagavatam to see what kinds of actions land people in the hellish planets. Unless the use of the term hell by you is figurative. the idea of somehow passing the disciples karma up the parampara chain is laughable ignorance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2004 Report Share Posted May 18, 2004 new karma of the disciples does affect the guru (to the extent Krishna wants it to be), but he is not ever in danger of going to "hell" because of it he goes to hell if he's not doing this ervice purely for krsna with no other interest the idea of somehow passing the disciples karma up the parampara chain is laughable ignorance. sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja aham tvam sarva-papebhyo moksayisyami ma sucah TRANSLATION Abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender unto Me. I shall deliver you from all sinful reaction. Do not fear. it is krsna, through parampara', who "takes" the sinful reactions of who is abandoning the dharmas to surrender to him Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livingentity Posted May 18, 2004 Report Share Posted May 18, 2004 I read this that you are speaking figuratively and not talking about yourself. These are the "thoughts" of someone else playing "guru" - am I correct? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krsna Posted May 18, 2004 Author Report Share Posted May 18, 2004 There is this covered rtvik philosophy which is very popular at the moment. The present gurus can only be officiating acaryas with no real power to deliver the disciples other than the complete faith that Prabhupada will cover for any failings of their current intiating gurus? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted May 18, 2004 Report Share Posted May 18, 2004 Yes ISKCON appears to be a version of ritvik. One moment they say Prabhupada is not accessable so you must select one of these. Then if that person fails to live up to the billing suddenly now Prabhupada is accessable and the fallen guru's disciples should redirect their faith towards him. Just be siksa guru's until the Lord in the heart directs you otherwise. Afterall remember it is the conclusion that is vital not the offical initiation. Conclusion is imparted by siksa. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krsna Posted May 18, 2004 Author Report Share Posted May 18, 2004 "As for the term "ritvik", Srila Prabhupada introduced this expression to refer to a representational system of initiations. Whoever would perform initiations on his behalf was serving as a transparent via medium to the founder-acarya. During his lifetime, those initiated under this arrangement were considered to be Srila Prabhupada's direct disciples. Those who would be initiated after his disappearance were to be known as his granddisciples." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Govindaram Posted May 18, 2004 Report Share Posted May 18, 2004 I said something about this, When I hear about Srila Prabhupada from sincere Vaishnava's my heart is made softer to feel true gratitute for Prabhupada, i.e when I hear from Prabhupada Godbrothers, but when I hear from 'others' {you know what I mean} my faith in Prabhupada is rooted out, its almost like hearing from 'non-devotees about devotees' does anybody understand what I am saying? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted May 18, 2004 Report Share Posted May 18, 2004 ritvik was there all along. Temple presidents would perform the ceremonies on Prabhupada's behalf. Nothing new. Becoming a grand-disciple is also nothing new. I don't see where Prabhupada changed anything. For myself I choose to just continue reading Prabhupada's books and trying to elevate my conscious towards Krsna in that way, The need for the label of being someone's acknowledged disciple carries no weight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2004 Report Share Posted May 18, 2004 For myself I choose to just continue reading Prabhupada's books and trying to elevate my conscious towards Krsna in that way, The need for the label of being someone's acknowledged disciple carries no weight. Being someone's disciple is not about the ability to say, "so and so is my guru." It's about having a living representative of the Lord to personally guide you in your study of shAstra and help you to develop the qualities which make the Lord attracted to you. Reading a qualified guru's writings is certainly helpful, but a living guide who can interact with you is what is necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AncientMariner Posted May 18, 2004 Report Share Posted May 18, 2004 Be careful you will get labled as a Prabhuvadi or a personality cultist as if that equates you with a mayavadi or something. Sorry for the sarcasm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted May 18, 2004 Report Share Posted May 18, 2004 As far as karma is concerned I think the topmost devotees don't even consider it. "Souls are fallen and suffering and it will please Krsna if I can help bring them to Him." The impetus for the Krsna Consciousness movement is one of selfless love not karmic calculation. But we are all calculating in one way or another at these stages. that's ok but it will be transcended in due course. To cure Krsna's headache the gopis would give their foot dust at the expense of going to hell. Due to love they saw no alternative, no time to pull out their calculaters. Krsna's well being was the only consideration. I can't imagine. I am involved in this because I hope to gain liberation from birth and death but find sayajua-mukti to be lacking in all aspects.(pun intended) Maybe I will find some rest in santa-rasa someday until i can gain appreciation for something more intimate. but the point is I am still concerned only with my weklfare not Krsna's. It was love of God that propeled Prabhupada to set foot on the Jaladuta and not karmic concerns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted May 18, 2004 Report Share Posted May 18, 2004 Being someone's disciple is not about the ability to say, "so and so is my guru." It's about having a living representative of the Lord to personally guide you in your study of shAstra and help you to develop the qualities which make the Lord attracted to you. Reading a qualified guru's writings is certainly helpful, but a living guide who can interact with you is what is necessary. Prabhuapada is in his commentaries. You seem to equate 'living' with having a phyically manifest body or something. In which case please read the second chapter of the bhagavad-gita again. get a name Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted May 18, 2004 Report Share Posted May 18, 2004 becomes the natural response to years of this offensive junk. If hundreds of Prabhupada's on words don't convince them I dare say there is nothing we can say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2004 Report Share Posted May 18, 2004 Just be siksa guru's until the Lord in the heart directs you otherwise. Afterall remember it is the conclusion that is vital not the offical initiation. Conclusion is imparted by siksa. the debate is on guru, siksa and diksa is not a problem... but sisya is complete surrendering like diksa, not some sort of friendly relationship this is demonstrated by the fact that many lines in our parampara are siksa .... Afterall remember it is the conclusion that is vital not the offical initiation. Conclusion is imparted by siksa. siksa is solemn and vital as the diksa initiation.. and the siksa guru has to be as pure as the diksa one. The relationship is exactly the same it is an iskcon new idea that siksa is some senior brother that we can choose to follow or not Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livingentity Posted May 18, 2004 Report Share Posted May 18, 2004 is indeed the natural reaction to this garbage. Until they are willing to listen to Prabhupada with an open heart and mind they are not worth the time of day. We are not here to argue. Prabhupada is clear in his instructions - He left nothing to chance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2004 Report Share Posted May 18, 2004 is indeed the natural reaction to this garbage. many thanks for your tolerance and kindness Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kulapavana Posted May 18, 2004 Report Share Posted May 18, 2004 my reference to laughable ignorance relates to the idea that using some gimmick a "guru" can make his guru suffer the karma of disciples he accepts. I thought that was pretty obvious from the thread. incidentally, the verse you quote does not mention parampara and has much broader and possibly somewhat different application. Krishna takes away the sinful reactions of ALL fully surrendered souls. since disciples are rarely fully surrendered to Krishna at the time of initiation, this verse probably does not apply in the context we are discussing here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livingentity Posted May 18, 2004 Report Share Posted May 18, 2004 for your tolerance and kindness to the devotees who follow Prabhupada and His teachings. Get a name if you desire to discuss this further. hmmm....isn't being "guest" mayavadi? Yes, I do believe it is. The desire to blend together as one guest entity and lose all individualility merging into the effulgence of cyber space. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2004 Report Share Posted May 18, 2004 it applies in the fact that the "karma" given by the consequences of surrendering goes to krsna if the guru is pure because the guru does not consider that disciple has surrendered to him but to krsna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kulapavana Posted May 18, 2004 Report Share Posted May 18, 2004 theist prabhu. there is no need for you to worry about what other people think about your take on the guru issue. the main point is that you are taking instructions from Prabhupada. at this stage of your devotional life this is obviously all you need. yours is a natural (and healthy) reaction to a lot of nonsense that happened within our movement with respect to guru issue. however, your current view of this matter may evolve in the future. spiritual matters usually have many dimensions to them, and all of them can be nicely reconciled once you have the proper perspective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kulapavana Posted May 18, 2004 Report Share Posted May 18, 2004 /images/graemlins/smile.gif Hare Krishna! as devotees, we have to tolerate and respect each other despite our differences. if we wont, nobody else will either... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2004 Report Share Posted May 18, 2004 of course!! jaya!! hare krishna!!jayaprabhupada!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted May 18, 2004 Report Share Posted May 18, 2004 nothing like a pat on the head once in a while. /images/graemlins/smile.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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