My Guru has entered Krsna's pastimes,how can he guide me here and now?

[Guest guest]

this does not means that srila gaura govinda swami is advicing that a devotee whose guru is passed away, has not to search for another personal "visible" guidance

 

gaura govinda maharaja was criticized and almost excluded by iskcon (also) because he had a (non iskcon) siksa guru and because he asked advice to and appreciated all gaudya vaishnavas.. even if he, being a maha bhagavata, were surely in complete association with srila prabhupada even after his divine grace's disappearance

 

so our duty is to have a personal "visible" master.. there's no shortage of spiritual "uncles" to take shelter when our spiritual "father" is no more in this world

[krsna]

Srila Gour Govinda Swami:

 

"The sad-guru or Sri Guru is an eternal associate of the Lord. When he disappears he enters into the nitya-lila of the Lord and goes to the abode of Krsna. But if he has accepted someone as his disciple, and if he has not rejected that disciple, then he is responsible for

taking that disciple to the lotus feet of Krsna.

 

As we speak of sad-guru, similarly there is sat-sisya. As it is very difficult to find a sad-guru, it is similarly difficult to find a sat-sisya, a true disciple."

 

 

"One who is very, very eager and very, very inquisitive, prays to his spiritual master,

 

"Oh my spiritual master, you have departed. You are not physically present, so I cannot understand. I am such an ignorant fool. I have no qualification. Though your instructions are there, I cannot understand what you have said. Please help me."

 

In Another Form

 

So guru will also come, but not in the same form. He may come in the form of a sadhu, a very dear devotee, who is also very dear to your spiritual master. Through him this will be revealed. Doubts will be cleared. Through him you will be able to understand tattva, purport. You should think,

 

"My guru is teaching me, he is speaking to me in this form."

 

Don’t think,

 

"My guru is not here. He has departed. What shall I do?"

 

Pray fervently to your spiritual master. He must help you. We have personal experience. We have been helped in this way. "

 

 

from :- The Worship of Sri Guru, 'Sri Guru My Eternal Master.'

[krsna]

Guru is Always There

 

 

S.B.Class at New Talavan, Miss., USA on 17-05-1994

 

 

 

If guru passes away...but he has eye on his dear disciple. What he does? He takes care.

He appears in the form of sadhu, sastra.

In the form of sadhu and sastra he appears. where the disciple is staying,

nearby if some qualified sadhu vaisnava is there, he empowers him and he teaches through him.

That guru is there. Yes. Eternal.

 

"I am eternally his disciple, he is eternally my master."

 

Fools cannot understand,

"Oh no more, my guru is gone, gone. I can act anything. I can do anything."

Then you hear your stupid mind. Now you become hippy, long hair, big mustache and drinking liquor,

 

"O my guru has passed away. No more. Prabhupada is no more."

 

What happened, such condition?! Fools, isn't it?

So many Prabhupada's diciples; seeing them my heart cracks...Fools.Fools.

 

Guru is always there, always there. He takes care. He takes care, yes.

He has...if you are serious, if you are really crying for the help of guru he is always there,

 

"O my guru has gone, I am independent now. I can act anything."

 

Then you have become servant of your stupid mind, godas, go das.

You are not using the weapon given to you by Guru. You have lost it. Understood?

 

...Guru is there. He slaps me. Do you understand? If you have vision(then) you can see.

And if you are really crying in your heart for the help of guru he is always there.

But fools cannot understand it. They cannot understand it.

 

"Guru is gone, no more, nobody to inflict discipline on me. I am independent. I can do whatever I like."

 

Then you become dasa of your stupid mind. Hearing the prompting of the stupid mind, he then falls down.

Now he is hippy, again hippy...

[krsna]

I'd have no life without Guru

 

Guru is the Sun in the Sky which never sets

 

Guru is Pure Consciousness Giving without expecting a reward

 

Guru gives unstintingly, unconditionally and unreservedly

[Guest guest]

Well, the spiritual master is most merciful. Under what circumstances will a Guru dis-own or disconnect his disciple?

 

 

but I was also present at an occasion where he disconnected a disciple - here from Amsterdam.

[shiva]

 

We have such loving relationship. Though he is not present here,

he's gone, went back to Godhead ; from that land, Vraja Bhumi, nitya Goloka Vrndavana,

he has eye on his dear disciple, takes care:

'Caksu dan dilo yei, janme janme prabhu sei',

One who has opened my eyes, he's my Master life after life - why not this life?

 

If a guru leaves this earthly plane of existence and goes to live in Goloka in nitya Krishna lila then it will be impossible for that person to "keep an eye" on his disciples. Why? The jivas in Krishna's nitya lila do not know Krishna is God, they do not know they are in God's highest heaven living with God. They are kept unaware of that fact. They see themselves as residents of Vrindavana or Dwarka or Mathura etc, they do not have knowledge of Krishna consciousness. Since the knowledge of Krishna being God and of gaudiya philosophy which is centered around the knowledge of Krishna's divinity is necessary for a person to act as a gaudiya vaisnava guru, therefore jivas in Goloka would be unable to act as a guru to a gaudiya vaisnava. Even though they are all pure souls they are kept in ignorance because Krishna wants to enjoy life with them without them being in awe and reverence of Him as God.

 

From Srila Prabhupada 1975 lecture

 

 

In the spiritual world there is no such distinction. The officer and the cleaner, they are of the same importance. That is even Krsna, with Krsna. That is spiritual world. In Vrndavana the cowherds boys, they are playing with Krsna on equal terms. They do not know Krsna is God. They simply know how to love Krsna, that's all. There is no need of thinking that "Krsna is greater than the other cowherds boy. They are living entities." There is no such sense. Krsna wants that. That is Goloka Vrndavana worship. Simply the center is Krsna, and all the inhabitants of Vrndavana, they love Krsna, and they do not know anything except Krsna. This is Vrndavana life. Everyone knows that "Krsna is my very intimate friend." Somebody knows, "Krsna is my son," somebody knows that "Krsna is my master," and somebody is thinking, "Krsna is my lover." But center is Krsna. The cows, the calves, the friends, the gops, and the cowherds boy, Krsna's father, Nanda Maharaja, Krsna's mother, Yasomati, and . . . Everyone's center is Krsna, "How Krsna will be happy?" This is Vrndavana life.

 

 

Srimad Bhagavatam 10.7.10

 

na te sraddadhire gopa

bala-bhasitam ity uta

aprameyam balam tasya

balakasya na te viduh

 

The assembled gopis and gopas, unaware that Krsna is always unlimited, could not believe that baby Krsna had such inconceivable power. They could not believe the statements of the children, and therefore they neglected these statements as being childish talk.

 

 

 

Purport Srimad Bhagavatam 7.10.48

 

...the Supreme Personality of Godhead in His original form as Krsna was always living with the Pandavas. Although the Pandavas, because of the influence of Krsna's yogamaya, could not think of their fortunate position [i.e having God as their friend], every saintly person, including the great sage Narada, could understand it, and therefore they constantly visited Maharaja Yudhisthira.

 

 

 

Srimad Bhagavatam 2.7.30

 

grhnita yad yad upabandham amusya mata

sulbam sutasya na tu tat tad amusya mati

yaj jrmbhato 'sya vadane bhuvanani gopi

samviksya sankita-manah pratibodhitasit

 

When the cowherd woman [Krsna's foster mother, Yasoda] was trying to tie the hands of her son with ropes, she found the rope to be always insufficient in length, and when she finally gave up, Lord Krsna, by and by, opened His mouth, wherein the mother found all the universes situated. Seeing this, she was doubtful in her mind, but she was convinced in a different manner of the mystic nature of her son.

 

PURPORT

 

One day Lord Krsna as the naughty child disturbed His mother Yasoda, and she began to tie up the child with ropes just to punish Him. But no matter how much rope she used, she found it always insufficient. Thus she became fatigued, but in the meantime the Lord opened His mouth, and the affectionate mother saw within the mouth of her son all the universes situated together. The mother was astonished, but out of her deep affection for Krsna she thought that the Almighty Godhead Narayana had kindly looked after her son just to protect Him from all the continuous calamities happening to Him. Because of her deep affection for Krsna, she could never think that her very son was Narayana, the Personality of Godhead Himself. That is the action of yogamaya, the internal potency of the Supreme Lord, which acts to perfect all the pastimes of the Lord with His different types of devotees. Who could play such wonders without being God?

 

 

 

Srimad Bhagavatam 1.11.39

 

tam menire 'bala mudhah

strainam canuvratam rahah

apramana-vido bhartur

isvaram matayo yatha

 

The simple and delicate women truly thought that Lord Sri Krsna, their beloved husband, followed them and was dominated by them. They were unaware of the extent of the glories of their husband, as the atheists are unaware of Him as the supreme controller.

 

PURPORT

 

Even the transcendental wives of Lord Sri Krsna did not know completely the unfathomable glories of the Lord. This ignorance is not mundane because there is some action of the internal potency of the Lord in the exchange of feelings between Him and His eternal associates. The Lord exchanges transcendental relations in five ways, as proprietor, master, friend, son and lover, and in each of these pastimes He plays fully by the potency of yogamaya, the internal potency. He plays exactly like an equal friend with the cowherd boys or even with friends like Arjuna. He plays exactly like a son in the presence of Yasodamata, He plays exactly like a lover in the presence of the cowherd damsels, and He plays exactly like a husband in the presence of the queens of Dvaraka. Such devotees of the Lord never think of the Lord as the Supreme, but think of Him exactly as a common friend, a pet son, or a lover or husband very much dear to heart and soul.

[shiva]

So what about this quote that someone provided at the start of this thread:

 

 

"So my Guru Maharaja will be very, very much pleased with you... it is not that he is dead and gone. That is not spiritual understanding... he is seeing. I never feel that I am alone."

 

(Lecture, 2/3/75)

 

That quote is taking from various parts of this lecture:

 

 

So now, by the grace of Krishna and Caitanya Mahaprabhu and in the presence of my Guru Maharaja, you are so nice boys and girls. So in front of Caitanya Mahaprabhu you are chanting Hare Krishna mantra, and you are taking part in it very seriously. So my Guru Maharaja will be very, very much pleased upon you and bless you with all benefits.

 

So he wanted this, and he is not... It is not that he is dead and gone. That is not spiritual understanding. Even ordinary living being, he does not die. Na hanyate hanyamane sarire. And what to speak of such exalted, authorized personality like Bhaktisiddhanta. He is seeing. I never feel that I am alone. Of course, when I came to your country without any friend, without any means... Practically, just like a vagabond I came. But I had full faith that “My Guru Maharaja is with me.” I never lost this faith, and that is fact. There are two words, vani and vapuh. Vani means words, and vapuh means this physical body. So vani is more important than the vapuh. Vapuh will be finished. This is material body. It will be finished. That is the nature. But if we keep to the vani, to the words of spiritual master, then we remain very fixed up. It doesn’t matter. Just like Bhagavad-gita. It was spoken five thousand years ago. But if you keep to the words of Krishna, then it is always fresh and guiding. Not that because Arjuna personally listened to Krishna about the instruction of Bhagavad-gita, therefore he knew it. That is not the fact. If you accept Bhagavad-gita as it is, then you should know that Krishna is present before you in His words in the Bhagavad-gita. This is called spiritual realization. It is not mundane historical incidences. If we keep...

 

evam parampara-praptam

imam rajarshayo viduh

sa kaleneha (mahata)

yogo nashtah parantapa

 

If you don’t keep in touch with the original link, then it will be lost. And if you keep touch with the original link, then you are directly hearing Krishna. Similarly, Krishna and Krishna’s representative, spiritual master, if you keep always intact, in link with the words and instruction of the superior authorities, then you are always fresh. This is spiritual understanding.

 

Srila Prabhupada was talking about feeling the presence of his spiritual master through his vani, his words.

 

Srila Prabhupada also would sometimes say things that were not really literally true but he would say them to inspire certain devotees for different reasons.

 

1967 June 14 : "Yes it is due to your prayers that this time my life has been saved."

 

1967 June 14 : "So far my health is concerned, I am improving daily, but due to my weakness sometimes I feel dizziness. Your prayer and all other boys' prayers has saved me and I hope to render some service to you all for some more years."

 

1967/Dec. 16: "When I left your country on the 22nd of July, I had very little hope to come back again. But Krishna informed me that I'm not going to die immediately; therefore, I have come back again to get inspiration from you all good souls. Although officially I am your Spiritual Master, I consider you all students of my Spiritual Master because your love for Krishna and service for Krishna teach me how to become a sincere Krishna Conscious person."

 

As far as I am concerned some people sometimes need to be told things that are not really literally true due to their lack of a philosophically inclined mentality, if sentimentalism can inspire those people to engage in sadhana bhakti and to serve the spiritual master's mission then Krishna will arrange sentimentalism to inspire them. But for those who can understand philosophy they will be able to see the true situation and the reasons for it.

 

From Srila Prabhupada letter to Mahananda dasa, 27th April 1970:

 

 

Regarding your questions, 'are the Spiritual Master and the Grand Spiritual Master consciously aware of the prayers of a sincere devotee who prays in love to Them'?-the answer is that no conscious prayers go in vain. They are transmitted positively. But one thing you must know that any prayer you offer to your Spiritual Master and Superior Spiritual Master, all of them are conveyed to Krishna, so no sincere prayers go in vain. We shall always offer such prayers to Spiritual Master, Superior Spiritual Master, Vaisnava Acaryas, Lord Caitanya, and at the end Radha Krishna, that is the system.

[Guest guest]

 

As far as I am concerned some people sometimes need to be told things that are not really literally true due to their lack of a philosophically inclined mentality, if sentimentalism can inspire........

 

Haribolo Shivaji! Still bussy propagading polygamy/sexual freedom in Hawaii?Any results so far?

[Guest guest]

Shiva,

 

The scriptures says that the jiva souls in Vaikunta are full of bliss and 'full of knowledge'. But your post seems to contradict the nature of the jiva souls in Vaikunta. If they do not know their position, where they are and the nature of the Personality they're enjoying with, how can they be considered 'full of knowledge'? If Jivas in the material world can understand this fact, how is it that residents of Vaikunta cannot understand it?

 

 

If a guru leaves this earthly plane of existence and goes to live in Goloka in nitya Krishna lila then it will be impossible for that person to "keep an eye" on his disciples. Why? The jivas in Krishna's nitya lila do not know Krishna is God, they do not know they are in God's highest heaven living with God. They are kept unaware of that fact. They see themselves as residents of Vrindavana or Dwarka or Mathura etc, they do not have knowledge of Krishna consciousness. Since the knowledge of Krishna being God and of gaudiya philosophy which is centered around the knowledge of Krishna's divinity is necessary for a person to act as a gaudiya vaisnava guru, therefore jivas in Goloka would be unable to act as a guru to a gaudiya vaisnava. Even though they are all pure souls they are kept in ignorance because Krishna wants to enjoy life with them without them being in awe and reverence of Him as God.

 

From Srila Prabhupada 1975 lecture

[shiva]

 

Haribolo Shivaji! Still bussy propagading polygamy/sexual freedom in Hawaii?Any results so far?

 

Please tell us your real name and your source for such a claim, otherwise I ask the admin to ban this person's ip for making false and defamatory accusations.

[shiva]

 

Shiva,

 

The scriptures says that the jiva souls in Vaikunta are full of bliss and 'full of knowledge'. But your post seems to contradict the nature of the jiva souls in Vaikunta. If they do not know their position, where they are and the nature of the Personality they're enjoying with, how can they be considered 'full of knowledge'? If Jivas in the material world can understand this fact, how is it that residents of Vaikunta cannot understand it?

 

Srila Prabhupada and the Bhagavatam state quite clearly that the jivas in Goloka do not know Krishna is God. If that is too difficult for you to accept so be it.

[Guest guest]

 

Srila Prabhupada and the Bhagavatam state quite clearly that the jivas in Goloka do not know Krishna is God. If that is too difficult for you to accept so be it.

 

Well, we know that the residents of Vrindavan are a very religious and faithful people. Vrindavan is not a Godless realm of unbridled sense gratification.

 

Vrindavan is the realm of the most purely religious (devoted) souls of all.

 

So, if the residents of Vrindavan do not consider Krishna as God, then who is God in Goloka?

Surely, Goloka is not a planet without a God and a religion?

 

Who is the God of Goloka?

 

Do the resident of Goloka not worship God?

 

If they do, then who is that God?

 

Narayana?

[shiva]

 

Well, we know that the residents of Vrindavan are a very religious and faithful people. Vrindavan is not a Godless realm of unbridled sense gratification.

 

Vrindavan is the realm of the most purely religious (devoted) souls of all.

 

So, if the residents of Vrindavan do not consider Krishna as God, then who is God in Goloka?

Surely, Goloka is not a planet without a God and a religion?

 

Who is the God of Goloka?

 

Do the resident of Goloka not worship God?

 

If they do, then who is that God?

 

Narayana?

 

I suggest you read Srila Prabhupada's KRSNA book and the works by the 6 goswamis and others for an intro to the culture and religion of Krishna lila. The point I made stands. While the residents of Krishna lila do indeed follow vedic religious practices to some degree, they are not renunciates of sensual enjoyment. The renunciation of sensual enjoyment is only meant for conditioned souls so as to aid them in their purification so that they can enjoy eternal pleasure pastimes. Krishna's nitya lila is not religious in the same sense that we are advised to be. Religion for us is for the purpose of our purification and upliftment towards a higher state of consciousness. Whereas religion in Krishna lila is a cultural and psychological addition for the enhancement of pleasure pastimes.

[Guest guest]

 

I suggest you read Srila Prabhupada's KRSNA book and the works by the 6 goswamis and others for an intro to the culture and religion of Krishna lila. The point I made stands. While the residents of Krishna lila do indeed follow vedic religious practices to some degree, they are not renunciates of sensual enjoyment. The renunciation of sensual enjoyment is only meant for conditioned souls so as to aid them in their purification so that they can enjoy eternal pleasure pastimes. Krishna's nitya lila is not religious in the same sense that we are advised to be. Religion for us is for the purpose of our purification and upliftment towards a higher state of consciousness. Whereas religion in Krishna lila is a cultural and psychological addition for the enhancement of pleasure pastimes.

 

that answer is not satisfactory to me.

I want to know if the residents of Goloka worship God or not?

 

Is Goloka really a Godless planet of hedonistic pleasure as you seem to be saying?

 

Or, is Goloka the planet of the highest form of God worship?

 

Please don't try and tell me that the residents Goloka have no conception of God or of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

 

You answer was ad hoc.

 

What I am seeking is an authoritative response with some shastric version of the religious and spiritual life of the residents of Goloka.

 

If you cannot present shastric explanations, then don't bother.

 

Ad hoc responses without any shastric support will not satisfy the question I have posed.

[Guest guest]

To show something about the mindset of the gopis, I would like to present this chapter of Krishna Book.

 

CHAPTER THIRTY-ONE

 

One gopi said, "My dear Krsna, ever since You took Your birth in this land of Vrajabhumi, everything appears to be glorious. The land of Vrndavana has become glorious, and it is as if the goddess of fortune is personally always existing here. But it is only we who are very unhappy, because we are searching for You, but cannot see You with our greatest effort. Our life is completely dependent upon You; therefore we request that You again come to us."

 

Another gopi said, "My dear Krsna, You are the life and soul even of the lotus flower that grows on the water of lakes made transparent by the clear rains of autumn. Although the lotus flowers are so beautiful, without Your glance they fade away. Similarly, without You, we are also dying. Actually, we are neither Your wives nor slaves. You never spent any money for us, yet we are simply attracted by Your glance. Now, if we die without receiving Your glance, You'll be responsible for our deaths. Certainly the killing of women is a great sin, and if You do not come to see us and we die, You will suffer the reactions of sin. So please come see us. Do not think that one can be killed only by certain weapons. We are being killed by Your absence. You should consider how You are responsible for killing women. We are always grateful to You because You have protected us many times: from the poisonous water of Yamuna, from the serpent Kaliya, from Bakasura, from the anger of Indra and his torrents of rain, from forest fire and so many other incidents. You are the greatest and most powerful of all. It is wonderful for You to protect us from so many dangers, but we are surprised that You are neglecting us at this moment. "Dear Krsna, dear friend, we know very well that You are not actually the son of mother Yasoda or the cowherd man Nanda Maharaja. You are the Supreme Personality of Godhead and the Supersoul of all living entities. You have, out of Your own causeless mercy, appeared in this world, requested by Lord Brahma for the protection of the world. It is by Your kindness only that You have appeared in the dynasty of Yadu. O best in the dynasty of Yadu, if anyone afraid of this materialistic way of life takes shelter at Your lotus feet, You never deny him protection. Your movements are sweet, and You are independent, touching the goddess of fortune with one hand and in the other bearing a lotus flower. That is Your extraordinary feature. Please, therefore, come before us and bless us with the lotus flower in Your hand.

 

"Dear Krsna, You are the killer of all the fears of the inhabitants of Vrndavana. You are the supremely powerful hero, and we know that You can kill the unnecessary pride of Your devotee as well as the pride of women like us simply by Your beautiful smile. We are simply Your maidservants and slaves; please, therefore, accept us by showing us Your lotus-like beautiful face.

 

"Dear Krsna, actually we have become very lusty, having been touched by Your lotus feet. Your lotus feet certainly kill all kinds of sinful activities of devotees who have taken shelter there. You are so kind that even the ordinary animals take shelter under Your lotus feet. Your lotus feet are also the residence of the goddess of fortune, yet You dance on the head of the Kaliya serpent with them. Now we are requesting You to kindly place Your lotus feet on our breasts and pacify our lusty desires to touch You.

 

"O Lord, Your attractive eyes, like the lotus, are so nice and pleasing. Your sweet words are so fascinating that they please even the greatest scholars, who also become attracted to You. We are also attracted by Your speaking and by the beauty of Your face and eyes. Please, therefore, satisfy us by Your nectarean kisses. Dear Lord, words spoken by You or words describing Your activities are full of nectar, and simply by speaking or hearing Your words one can be saved from the blazing fire of material existence. Great demigods like Lord Brahma and Lord Siva are always engaged in chanting the glories of Your words. They do so to eradicate the sinful activities of all living entities in the material world. If one simply tries to hear Your transcendental words, he can very quickly be elevated to the platform of pious activities. For the Vaisnavas, Your words give transcendental pleasure, and saintly persons who are engaged in distributing Your transcendental message all over the world are first-class charitable persons." (This was confirmed by Rupa Gosvami also when he addressed Lord Caitanya as the most munificent incarnation because Lord Caitanya distributed the words of Krsna and love of Krsna free of charge all over the world.)

 

"Dear Krsna," the gopis continued, "You are very cunning. You can imagine how much we are distressed simply by remembering Your cunning smile, Your pleasing glance, Your walking with us in the forest of Vrndavana, and Your auspicious meditations. Your talks with us in lonely places were heart-warming. Now we are all aggrieved to remember Your behavior. Please save us. Dear Krsna, certainly You know how much we are saddened when You go out of Vrndavana village to tend the cows in the forest. How we are afflicted simply to think that Your soft lotus feet are being pricked by the dry grass and the tiny stones in the forest! We are so attached to You that we always think simply of Your lotus feet.

 

"O Krsna, when You return from the pasturing ground with the animals, we see Your face covered by Your curly hair and dusted by the hoof-dust of the cows. We see Your mildly smiling face, and our desire to enjoy You increases. O dear Krsna, You are the supreme lover, and You always give shelter to surrendered souls. You fulfill everyone's desire; Your lotus feet are even worshiped by Lord Brahma, the creator of the universe. To whomever worships Your lotus feet, You without a doubt always bestow Your benedictions. So kindly be pleased with us and keep Your lotus feet on our breasts and thus relieve our present distresses. Dear Krsna, we are seeking Your kisses which You offer even to Your flute. The vibration of Your flute enchants the whole world and our hearts also. Kindly, therefore, return and kiss us with Your mouth of nectar."

 

When Lord Krsna finally reappeared and assembled with the gopis, He looked very beautiful, just befitting a person with all kinds of opulences. In the Brahma-samhita, it is stated, ananda-cin-maya-rasa-pratibhavitabhih: Krsna alone is not particularly beautiful, but when His energy--especially His pleasure energy, represented by Radharani--expands, He looks very magnificent. The Mayavada conception of the perfection of the Absolute Truth without potency is due to insufficient knowledge. Actually, outside the exhibition of His different potencies, the Absolute Truth is not complete. Ananda-cin-maya-rasa means that His body is a transcendental form of eternal bliss and knowledge. Krsna is always surrounded by different potencies, and therefore He is perfect and beautiful. We understand from Brahma-samhita and Skanda Purana that Krsna is always surrounded by many thousands of goddesses of fortune. The gopis are all goddesses of fortune, and Krsna took them hand in hand on the bank of the Yamuna.

 

It is said in the Skanda Purana that out of many thousands of gopis, 16,000 are predominant; out of those 16,000 gopis, 108 gopis are especially prominent; and out of 108 gopis, eight gopis are still more prominent; out of eight gopis, Radharani and Candravali are prominent; and out of these two gopis, Radharani is the most prominent.

 

When Krsna entered the forest on the bank of the Yamuna, the moonlight dissipated the surrounding darkness. Due to the season, flowers like the kunda and kadamba were blooming, and a gentle breeze was carrying their aroma. Due to the aroma, the bees were also flying in the breeze, thinking that the aroma was honey. The gopis made a seat for Krsna by leveling the soft sand and placing cloths over it.

 

The gopis who were gathered there were mostly all followers of the Vedas. In their previous births, during Lord Ramacandra's advent, they were Vedic scholars who desired the association of Lord Ramacandra in conjugal love. Ramacandra gave them the benediction that they would be present for the advent of Lord Krsna, and He would fulfill their desires. During Krsna's advent, the Vedic scholars took birth in the shape of the gopis in Vrndavana; as young gopis, they got the association of Krsna in fulfillment of their previous births' desire. The ultimate goal of their perfect desire was attained, and they were so joyous that they had nothing further to desire. This is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gita: if one attains the Supreme Personality of Godhead, then he has no desire for anything. When the gopis had Krsna in their company, not only all their grief, but their lamenting in the absence of Krsna was relieved. They felt they had no desire to be fulfilled. Fully satisfied in the company of Krsna, they spread their cloths on the ground. These garments were made of fine linen and smeared with the red kunkuma which decorated their breasts. With great care they spread a sitting place for Krsna. Krsna was their life and soul, and they created a very comfortable seat for Him.

 

Sitting on the seat amongst the gopis, Krsna became more beautiful. Great yogis like Lord Siva, Lord Brahma or even Lord Sesa and others always try to fix their attention upon Krsna in their heart, but here the gopis actually saw Krsna seated before them on their cloths. In the society of the gopis, Krsna looked very beautiful. They were the most beautiful damsels within the three worlds, and they assembled together around Krsna.

 

It may be asked herein how Krsna seated Himself beside so many gopis and yet sat alone. There is a significant word in this verse: isvara. As it is stated in the Bhagavad-gita, isvarah sarva-bhutanam. Isvara refers to the Supreme Lord as the Supersoul seated in everyone's heart. Krsna also manifested this potency of expansion as Paramatma in this gathering with the gopis. Krsna was sitting by the side of each gopi, unseen by the others. Krsna was so kind to the gopis that instead of sitting in their hearts to be appreciated in yogic meditation, He seated Himself by their sides. By seating Himself outside, He showed special favor to the gopis, who were the selected beauties of all creation. Having gotten their most beloved Lord, the gopis began to please Him by moving their eyebrows and smiling and also by suppressing their anger. Some of them took His lotus feet in their laps and began to massage Him. And while smiling, they confidentially expressed their suppressed anger and said, "Dear Krsna, we are ordinary women of Vrndavana, and we do not know much about Vedic knowledge--what is right and what is wrong. We therefore put a question to You, and, since You are very learned, You can answer it properly. In dealing between lovers, we find that there are three classes of men. One class simply receives, another class reciprocates favorably, even if the lover is very contrary, and the third class neither acts contrary nor answers favorably in dealings of love. So out of these three classes, which do You prefer, or which do You call honest?"

 

In answer, Krsna said, "My dear friends, persons who simply reciprocate the loving dealings of the other party are just like merchants. They give in loving affairs as much as they get from the other party. Practically there is no question of love. It is simply business dealing, and it is self-interested or self-centered. Better the second class of men, who love in spite of the opposite party's contrariness; even those without a tinge of loving affairs are better than the merchants. Sincere love can be seen when the father and mother love their children in spite of their children's neglect. The third class neither reciprocates nor neglects. They can be further divided into two classes. One is the self-satisfied, who do not require anyone's love. They are called atmarama, which means they are absorbed in the thought of the Supreme Personality of Godhead and so do not care whether one loves them or not. But another class are ungrateful men. They are called callous. The men in this group revolt against superior persons. For instance, a son, in spite of receiving all kinds of things from loving parents, may be callous and not reciprocate. Those in this class are generally known as guru-druhah, which means they receive favors from the parents or the spiritual master and yet neglect them."

 

Krsna indirectly answered the questions of the gopis, even those questions which implied that Krsna did not properly receive their dealings. In answer, Krsna said that He, as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, is self-satisfied. He does not require anyone's love, but at the same time He said that He is not ungrateful.

 

"My dear friends," Krsna continued, "you might be aggrieved by My words and acts, but you must know that sometimes I do not reciprocate My devotees' dealings with Me. It appears that My devotees are very much attached to Me, but sometimes I do not reciprocate their feelings properly in order to increase their love for Me more and more. If I can very easily be approached by them, they might think, 'Krsna is so easily available.' So sometimes I do not respond. If a person has no money but after some time accumulates some wealth and then loses it, he will think of the lost property twenty-four hours a day. Similarly, in order to increase the love of My devotees, sometimes I appear to be lost to them, and instead of forgetting Me, they feel their loving sentiments for Me increase. My dear friends, do not think for a moment that I have been dealing with you just like ordinary devotees. I know what you are. You have forsaken all kinds of social and religious obligations; you have given up all connection with your parents. Without caring for social convention and religious obligations, you have come to Me and loved Me, and I am so much obliged to you that I cannot treat you as ordinary devotees. Do not think that I was away from you. I was near to you. I was simply seeing how much you were anxious for Me in My absence. So please do not try to find fault in Me. Because you consider Me so dear to you, kindly excuse Me if I have done anything wrong. I cannot repay your continual love for Me, even throughout the lifetimes of the demigods in the heavenly planets. It is impossible to repay you or show gratitude for your love; therefore please be satisfied by your own pious activities. You have displayed exemplary attraction for Me, overcoming the greatest difficulties arising from family connections. Please be satisfied with your highly exemplary character, for it is not possible for Me to repay your debt."

 

The exemplary character of devotional service manifested by the devotees of Vrndavana is the purest type of devotion. It is enjoined in authoritative sastra that devotional service must be ahaituka and apratihata. This means that devotional service to Krsna cannot be checked by political or religious convention. The stage of devotional service is always transcendental. The gopis particularly showed pure devotional service towards Krsna, so much so that Krsna Himself remained indebted to them. Lord Caitanya thus said that the devotional service manifested by the gopis in Vrndavana excelled all other methods of approaching the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

 

Thus ends the Bhaktivedanta purport of the Thirty-first Chapter of Krsna, "Songs by the Gopis."

[shiva]

 

that answer is not satisfactory to me.

I want to know if the residents of Goloka worship God or not?

 

Is Goloka really a Godless planet of hedonistic pleasure as you seem to be saying?

 

Or, is Goloka the planet of the highest form of God worship?

 

Please don't try and tell me that the residents Goloka have no conception of God or of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

 

You answer was ad hoc.

 

What I am seeking is an authoritative response with some shastric version of the religious and spiritual life of the residents of Goloka.

 

If you cannot present shastric explanations, then don't bother.

 

Ad hoc responses without any shastric support will not satisfy the question I have posed.

 

There is a difference between Goloka and Krishna's pastimes in the material world (Gokula). While the pastimes are practically the same there are some differences i.e no demons in Goloka, no birth and death, etc. Clearly you know that in Goloka there is vedic religion and that they worship Lord Narayana as well as Shiva and Durga etc. So I don't know why you feign ignorance on this point. What is your objection? My point was that the devotees in Goloka do not know Krishna is God. I quoted Srila Prabhupada and the Bhagavatam to that effect. Accept or reject, I simply repeated what is written by guru and sastra. If there is some preaching in the sastra where devotees in Krishna lila preach about the existential position of Krishna as the supreme Lord then that is done for our benefit, it is not going on in Goloka, only in Gokula is the Lord recognized as the Lord i.e revealing his identity in the battlefield of Kuruksetra etc.

[Guest guest]

 

There is a difference between Goloka and Krishna's pastimes in the material world (Gokula). While the pastimes are practically the same there are some differences i.e no demons in Goloka, no birth and death, etc. Clearly you know that in Goloka there is vedic religion and that they worship Lord Narayana as well as Shiva and Durga etc. So I don't know why you feign ignorance on this point. My point was that the devotees in Goloka do not know Krishna is God. I quoted Srila Prabhupada and the Bhagavatam to that effect. Accept or reject, I simply repeated what is written by guru and sastra. I need show no more proof.

 

then can you share with us the shastric reference where Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur says that Goloka is actually based off of the Gokula prototype?

 

go figure.....

 

can you handle the inconceivable, or must everything fit into your personal box of mental logic?

[shiva]

 

then can you share with us the shastric reference where Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur says that Goloka is actually based off of the Gokula prototype?

 

go figure.....

 

can you handle the inconceivable, or must everything fit into your personal box of mental logic?

 

 

Hmmm. What is your point? If you simply want to argue for arguments sake I have better things to do. Obviously you know that it is in the Jaiva Dharma what you ask, yet you seem to want to play some kind of silly game of pretense and prosecution, Is that proper vaisnava behavior? I will not respond until you act without dishonesty and without the seeking to diminish my reputation as your mind game of choice of the moment. If you can behave then I will interact with you, otherwise not.

 

p.s. Bhaktivinoda does not say that "Goloka is actually based off of the Gokula prototype" and neither did I.

[Guest guest]

 

Hmmm. What is your point?.

 

My point is that Goloka is not a Godless planet of people that follow hedonistic pleasures in abject indifference to God and religious principles.

 

Goloka is a planet of pure devotees of God.

[Guest guest]

 

 

p.s. Bhaktivinoda does not say that "Goloka is actually based off of the Gokula prototype" and neither did I.

 

I know you didn't say it.

Bhaktivinode did, but I am not going to do your homework for you.

[shiva]

 

My point is that Goloka is not a Godless planet of people that follow hedonistic pleasures in abject indifference to God and religious principles.

 

 

I never said it was, that is your own projection in a silly attempt to denigrate me and to try to seem superior to me as well as all knowing and self realized. This is my last interaction with you.

 

Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya 8.221 purport

 

 

In all, there are sixty-four items listed for the rendering of service unto Krsna, and these are the regulative principles enjoined in the sastras and given by the spiritual master. One has to serve Krsna according to these regulative principles, but if one develops spontaneous love for Krsna as exhibited in the activities of those who live in Vrajabhumi, one attains the platform of raganuga-bhakti. One who has developed this spontaneous love is eligible for elevation to the platform enjoyed by the inhabitants of Vrajabhumi. In Vrajabhumi, there are no regulative principles set forth for Krsna's service. Rather, everything is carried out in spontaneous, natural love for Krsna. There is no question of following the principles of the Vedic system. Such principles are followed within this material world, and as long as one is on the material platform, he has to execute them. However, spontaneous love of Krsna is transcendental. It may seem that the regulative principles are being violated, but the devotee is on the transcendental platform. Such service is called gunatita, or nirguna, for it is not contaminated by the three modes of material nature.

[Guest guest]

Since there are so many guests posting, I will repeat my original question, so you will know who you're responding to. My original post was-

 

"Shiva,

 

The scriptures says that the jiva souls in Vaikunta are full of bliss and 'full of knowledge'. But your post seems to contradict the nature of the jiva souls in Vaikunta. If they do not know their position, where they are and the nature of the Personality they're enjoying with, how can they be considered 'full of knowledge'? If Jivas in the material world can understand this fact, how is it that residents of Vaikunta cannot understand it?"

 

Your response was-

 

 

Srila Prabhupada and the Bhagavatam state quite clearly that the jivas in Goloka do not know Krishna is God. If that is too difficult for you to accept so be it.

 

I am disappointed with your response, Shiva. The very reason I directed that question to you was because I've read many of your posts on this forum and found them to be highly intelligent and informative and was hoping that you would provide an answer to my question. Please understand that I have absolutely no difficulty in accepting what Srila Prabhupada says in his Bhagavatam commentary. If I had doubts, I wouldn't be discussing his teachings on this forum. My question wasn't meant to challenge. It was a straight forward question that was meant to help dispel my doubt.

[shiva]

 

Since there are so many guests posting, I will repeat my original question, so you will know who you're responding to. My original post was-

 

"Shiva,

 

The scriptures says that the jiva souls in Vaikunta are full of bliss and 'full of knowledge'. But your post seems to contradict the nature of the jiva souls in Vaikunta. If they do not know their position, where they are and the nature of the Personality they're enjoying with, how can they be considered 'full of knowledge'? If Jivas in the material world can understand this fact, how is it that residents of Vaikunta cannot understand it?"

 

Your response was-

 

 

 

I am disappointed with your response, Shiva. The very reason I directed that question to you was because I've read many of your posts on this forum and found them to be highly intelligent and informative and was hoping that you would provide an answer to my question. Please understand that I have absolutely no difficulty in accepting what Srila Prabhupada says in his Bhagavatam commentary. If I had doubts, I wouldn't be discussing his teachings on this forum. My question wasn't meant to challenge. It was a straight forward question that was meant to help dispel my doubt.

 

 

Vaikuntha is where everyone knows God is God and is fully self realized. Since I don't know who you are and what your level of knowledge is on the Bhagavat I took it for granted that you are a gaudiya vaisnava and therefore should know that Vaikuntha and Goloka are different. That is what we are taught as beginners. It is not some great philosophical struggle. It is simple and quite clear. If you make it difficult to know who you are and what level of exposure you have had to gaudiya siddhanta then what can you expect? I gave the answer that I would give to a gaudiya vaisnava. They should know that Vaikuntha and Goloka are different and that in Vaikuntha everyone relates with Lord Narayana in knowledge of the majesty and power of the Lord. Make yourself easier to understand where you are coming from and then you will get the reciprocation you desire.

 

It is a lack of respect to those who consistently use a single name on a forum to respond to us and ask questions if you do not do the same. The simple and easy method to make conversations easy on a forum is to use a single name, How difficult is it to do that? How can I take people very seriously if they don't make a few seconds effort to either get an account or at the least to sign a consistent name? How do I know you are not the person who made false and defamatory comments about me earlier in this thread and who just seeks to be antagonistic for hateful reasons? Give some respect if you want respect.

 

Ultimately if you accept the verdict of the Bhagavatam and the previous acaryas on the nature of reality then what is the problem? There is no philosophical way to expound on this issue. We are simply told what is what and you either have faith or you don't. If you want a philosophical exposition about what the sastra says about "full of knowledge" when it comes to Goloka, then you will be unsatisfied. This is not a philosophical quandry. We are told what life is like in Goloka and in Vaikuntha for the jivas, we have no way to prove that philosophically, you either have faith in the words of the Bhagavats or you don't. What more can you ask of me about something that cannot be proven philosophically? It's not like debating the nature of the soul and our relationship with the material world. Not everything that we are taught from the vedic sastra is provable, much is based on faith. Just like I can't philosophically prove that Krishna is Swayam Bhagavan to another person, no one can. We simply accept what the sastra says until we have that knowledge revealed to us directly.

 

You said you wanted to "dispel doubt". Doubt about what? You said "If I had doubts, I wouldn't be discussing his teachings on this forum." You say you have no doubts then the very next line you say are looking to overcome doubts? How am I to know what you mean by that if you don't make yourself clear? You shouldn't expect vaisnavas to be at your beck and call to answer what you want in the way you want it, especially if you don't make an effort to better enunciate your position first. Krishna gives you entrance into divine knowledge depending on your level of sincerity and humility. I am not the controller of what you read here, Krishna controls how you are treated and what you experience at all times.

 

Srimad Bhagavatam 11.13.24

 

manasa vacasa drishtya

grihyate 'nyair apindriyaih

aham eva na matto 'nyad

iti budhyadhvam anjasa

 

Within this world, whatever is perceived by the mind, speech, eyes or other senses is Me alone and nothing besides Me. All of you please understand this by a straightforward analysis of the facts.

[Guest guest]

Shiva,

 

Thank you for responding. All of your points are well taken and understood. I will try to use a consistent name when getting into a discussion with you.

 

As regards the point about doubts in Srila Prabhupada's teachings, it was an oversight. I should have said "if I didn't have 'faith' in Srila Prabhupada's teachings, I wouldn't be discussing it here". Sorry for the confusion and thanks again for the reply.

 

 

Vaikuntha is where everyone knows God is God and is fully self realized. Since I don't know who you are and what your level of knowledge is on the Bhagavat I took it for granted that you are a gaudiya vaisnava and therefore should know that Vaikuntha and Goloka are different. That is what we are taught as beginners. It is not some great philosophical struggle. It is simple and quite clear. If you make it difficult to know who you are and what level of exposure you have had to gaudiya siddhanta then what can you expect? I gave the answer that I would give to a gaudiya vaisnava. They should know that Vaikuntha and Goloka are different and that in Vaikuntha everyone relates with Lord Narayana in knowledge of the majesty and power of the Lord. Make yourself easier to understand where you are coming from and then you will get the reciprocation you desire.

 

It is a lack of respect to those who consistently use a single name on a forum to respond to us and ask questions if you do not do the same. The simple and easy method to make conversations easy on a forum is to use a single name, How difficult is it to do that? How can I take people very seriously if they don't make a few seconds effort to either get an account or at the least to sign a consistent name? How do I know you are not the person who made false and defamatory comments about me earlier in this thread and who just seeks to be antagonistic for hateful reasons? Give some respect if you want respect.

 

Ultimately if you accept the verdict of the Bhagavatam and the previous acaryas on the nature of reality then what is the problem? There is no philosophical way to expound on this issue. We are simply told what is what and you either have faith or you don't. If you want a philosophical exposition about what the sastra says about "full of knowledge" when it comes to Goloka, then you will be unsatisfied. This is not a philosophical quandry. We are told what life is like in Goloka and in Vaikuntha for the jivas, we have no way to prove that philosophically, you either have faith in the words of the Bhagavats or you don't. What more can you ask of me about something that cannot be proven philosophically? It's not like debating the nature of the soul and our relationship with the material world. Not everything that we are taught from the vedic sastra is provable, much is based on faith. Just like I can't philosophically prove that Krishna is Swayam Bhagavan to another person, no one can. We simply accept what the sastra says until we have that knowledge revealed to us directly.

 

You said you wanted to "dispel doubt". Doubt about what? You said "If I had doubts, I wouldn't be discussing his teachings on this forum." You say you have no doubts then the very next line you say are looking to overcome doubts? How am I to know what you mean by that if you don't make yourself clear? You shouldn't expect vaisnavas to be at your beck and call to answer what you want in the way you want it, especially if you don't make an effort to better enuciate your position first. Krishna gives you entrance into divine knowledge depending on your level of sincerity and humility. I am not the controller of what you read here, Krishna controls how you are treated and what you experience at all times.

 

Srimad Bhagavatam 11.13.24

 

manasa vacasa drishtya

grihyate 'nyair apindriyaih

aham eva na matto 'nyad

iti budhyadhvam anjasa

 

Within this world, whatever is perceived by the mind, speech, eyes or other senses is Me alone and nothing besides Me. All of you please understand this by a straightforward analysis of the facts.

[anandamahadeva~]

 

His Divine Grace has left this world and am I all alone now to fight Maya?

 

How can he possibly help me now in my desperate hour of need?

 

Is he really gone and I can no longer get his mercy and instruction?

 

Who will reprimand me if I go off the rails and into the deep end?

 

I am ready to enter the fire and smash my head against the rocks,where has my beloved spiritual master gone and how can I be with him once again?

Do not lament beloved for even tho he may have entered krishna's past times he is still with you, and as the other devotees stated sri-guru never dies he only reincarnates as another pure devotee.