Is this my Gurudeva?

[Guest guest]

I recently went to a temple where Srila Narayana Maharaja was giving a lecture and had the most amazing experience. When he entered the room, tears came to my eyes, and this overwhelming feeling of compassion towards him came from within me. I have never felt anything like it. I keep questioning myself, is this what it feels like or was it just a lot of energy in the room and it affected me like that?

So, my question is, how do you know when you have found your spiritual master?

[theist]

to ask yourself might be "If I have to ask...?"

 

You should receive some internal confirmation from Supersoul beyond an emotional experience. Followers of Guru Maharaja ji and others used to say similar things "I say a light around him... I had a vision in my mind... I felt universal love etc."

 

Looking for a guru. Since guru is external expansion of Supersoul one should ask Him to reveal guru. There is no one closer to you than Supersoul. No one that loves you more and is more desirious of your welfare. No one else more in control of all circumstances to arrange a meeting betweeen you and His external manifestation.

 

The Lord is self revealing.

[Govindaram]

 

Hare Krsna

 

A Devotee said to me they could talk to their Guru.

 

Could be maybe they knew them before?

[stonehearted]

What I find confusing about your inquiry is your assertion that you felt "an overwhelming feeling of compassion towards him" overcame you. Compassion means mercy, pity, sympathy, a desire to relieve the other of suffering. This would be the sentiment of someone in a superior position. One would expect that Maharaja may feel an overwhelming sense of compassion for you.

 

I suspect that you chose the wrong word.

[Guest guest]

Please forgive me for that. I just meant that I felt very loving towards him, and not that I felt pity or sympathy. I sincerely apoligize for using the wrong word.

 

I would just like to know how some others felt or thought when they met their Guru Maharaja?

 

[theist]

In relation to your original question who should also come to know if recognizing guru comes in a momentary flash or if it comes along with God realization as an envolving deeping process?

 

I mean we can accept guru out of some sentiment but will that alone sustain us throughout the process of devotional service and inquiry? Will that feeling be enough to hold off the inevitable onslaught of doubts that usually show themselves at some point?

 

I suspect it could come in a flash for some but I also suspect true acceptance of guru may come in the form of a process stretched out over many years or even lifetimes for most.

 

It just seems very individual in reality notwithstanding the formula of waiting six months or a year that is rather uniformly prescribed.

 

What I am getting at is it may be best for somone to just continue to hear and serve under someone for a good while and not feel pressured to make some formal declaration.

 

Let your life be your declaration.

[Govindaram]

 

This is nice

 

Sankarshan Das Adhikari:

...real acceptance will be to chant your rounds daily

without fail and strictly following the 4 principles. Otherwise

you cannot claim to be a disciple. Disciple means discipline.

It does not mean merely a sentiment.

____

 

Disciple means discipline. /images/graemlins/ooo.gif

[Guest guest]

Is that the guru who came to Manhattan? on May 16, 2004? Are you talking about him?

[Guest guest]

he was in LA on that date. That is where I saw him.

[Sunandaji]

it's not the same for everybody. I'm myself a disciple of Srila Narayana Maharaja. I asked for initiation because i could see He was a really advanced Saddhu, born in the Vedic culture. Now i'm initiated and i can feel His power. He also come in dreams sometimes, and made a lot of things really easier. I couldn't chant more than 4 rounds at my initiation and the week after i was doing 16, now i can even chant 25.

 

He's really powerful and no matter if you are the sctric neophyte or more learned, for me you'll be in good hands. And one more thing: don't ever listen to all the . talking some try to spread around... It's sad they will never understand.

[Guest guest]

Sunandaji,

Did you ask for initiation when you met him the first time, or did you associate with him or his disciples for a while first? About the chanting, I feel the same way. I can get in about 4-6 rounds a day, on beads, but listen to and sing bhajans ALL DAY long (who knows what that amounts to!)

 

[Sunandaji]

ok !

don't worry, it's great if you are so inspired. I decided i needed a Gurudev to protect me because of certain things happening in my life. i actually chose Him because to me He was the most advanced Guru i could find.

If you chant 4 rounds or 6, don't worry, everything will come gradually after initiation. PLease feel free to write me at silvertouch108@.fr , then we can talk more about this subject !!

aspiring to serve you:

Sunanda dasa

[gHari]

I think the guest is serious about this question to you:<blockquote>Did you ask for initiation when you met him the first time, or did you associate with him or his disciples for a while first? </blockquote>Perhaps you can even add a comment in retrospect about how this worked out, whether there might have been a better approach, and what is most important in the process. Others, besides myself and the guest may find your story of interest.

 

[Sunandaji]

i met Vana Maharaj one time before, and i guess he gaveme some mercy. I had no particular "vision" in the 1st time, and i chose Narayan Maharaj because he was to most advanced in the place in my eyes. I consider Him like the real successor of Srila Prabhupada, and since my initiation, and even a little before, i sawi was in contact with a pure devotee.

 

What i can say is that the night before my initiation i had a lot of doubts about taking harinama, because i felt i had to be serious and could not walk back. and at midnight a guy falled from the window just next to our room. it was very cold outside, february in the german moutain, with snow and stuff. and a guy who arrived at the festival too late in the night tried to get in by a window and falled several meter and was severely injuried. He was screaming outside like an animal gettin slaughtered. At that time i realized that material life is full of dangers, and that i could die in horrible conditions at any moment.

And prayers i made to my Gurudev andthe next time i see Him He come to me and acted exactly the way as he heard my prayers, plus coming into dreams...

 

i also have a Godbro who see Him in dreams and receives instructions.

[Guest guest]

for answering my question.

I don't think i had a vision or whatever, but when he appeared in my presence, I felt something I had never felt when seeing another maharaja.

He was so loving when he talked about prabhupada, and his relationship with him. There are pictures of prabhupada all over their temple. I feel like he genuinly is continuing prabhupada's mission to spread Krishna Conciousness throughout the world.

I don't know, i just cannot stop thinking about wanting him to be my Gurudeva .

Thank you for all your advice.

[theist]

It's a great realization that death can come any time and if someone uses that as impetus to get serious about Krsna consciousness that is perfection of intelligence. But don't think offical intiation will save you from death. Krsna consciousness will. I am not suggesting that you view the ceremony as frivilous, I am suggesting that you don't see it as goal completed. I am sure you are not but others who read here may.

 

As far as visions go Supersoul can speak through any medium He likes, dreams and visions included. But maya can also. Here are two examples from people I spoke to. Note the similar trick in both.

 

Once while on the street talking to people I met a new convert to Guru Maharaja ji. This was in the early seventies and he has long been kicked out of the US and even his mother now says there was a miatake and he was never God it was really his brother Bhagavan all along. LOL

 

Anyway this person while in the presence of his disciples received a vision. It started off as Jesus Christ approaching the earth surrounded by clouds. As he got closer the figure of Jesus started to transform. By the time he reached earth it had fully turned into Guru Maharaj ji. That proved to this soul that Guru Maharaj ji was the second coming of Lord Jesus Christ.

 

Another involved Muktananda. I knew this nice couple who would visit the Krsna temple as well as other yoga groups. They were searching. Muktananda came to Honolulu and they went to see him and hear him speak. While sitting in the audience Muktananda looked at my friend and he had a vision. First he saw Krsna playing his flute and then that image turned in Muktananda. He took this as meaning that Muktananda was really Krsna.

 

Again I am NOT equating Narayan maharaja with these other characters. I am just addressing our own vulnerability.

 

It is always good advice to be cautious and seek with all due diligence the guidance of Supersoul. Learn to pray and listen deeply for His voice. He will guide us straight even if we prove to be deaf for a while.

 

Don't be pressured into "initiation". The pressure is there to find Krsna.

 

 

[shambu]

"Don't be pressured into "initiation". The pressure is there to find Krsna."

 

Can you imagine being "pressured" into initiation? I can, because I was. I got strongly involved with the disciples of Narayana Maharaja, and ended up being initiated (Harinama) by the latter, even though I was already initiated by a still practicing devotee in ISKCON (Lokanatha Maharaja). This caused me to end up confused and frustrated. Actually I never formally requested for (re)initiation by Narayana Maharaja. Just somebody (for whom I was doing some regular service at that time) put me on a list of initiation-candidates when Narayana Maharaja came to visite here 4 years back. I had broken away from the ISKCON-society (actually just "blooped") and developed a critical view towards them. Everybody I knew from that group told me to do it (take initiation), even though I was quite doubtful myself whether it was a wise thing or not. But I took it as the will of destiny and got a new name and mala and everything. Within a short time I realized that I probably made a big mistake and right now I have completely broken with the sanga of Narayana Maharaja and his devotees. And I have developed a very critical attitude towards them now.

 

The main problem with these people is that they are suffering from tunnel-vision syndrom. Any type of criticism or even doubt uttered in their direction immediately makes them very upset. For instance they stiffly maintain that Prabhupada and their guru are preaching the exactly same thing, that only the form is somewhat different etc. This is total nonsense. Anyone who doesn't see the obvious differences must be completely blind. Furthermore they adore their guru-maharaja as the factual "spiritual successor" of HDG AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, which is a bold but also unfounded and maybe even offensive claim. I think anyone who wants to put himself on equal (or even higher) level as Swami Prabhupada must be out of his mind and a crude offender. Why they don't consider this? And in what way Narayana Maharaja is serving his "siksa-guru"? By "re-initiating" his grand-disciples and instructing them how to become sakhis of Rupa Manjari? Is this Prabhupada's mission? I think Prabhupada would be outraged to hear how his Society is being hollowed out by such efforts. In my vision Narayana Maharaja is just taking advantage of an unstable and weakened situation in ISKCON with the aim of establishing his own alternative "ISKCON," instead of actually helping and supporting the Society established by his "siksa-guru and priya-bandhu" (Srila Prabhupada), as he would have desired.

 

Here in the Netherlands Narayana Maharaja initiated MORE THAN 300 PERSONS (mainly from Hindu background) and out of them all maybe 30 are known to be practicing devotees who congregate regularly. Most of them probably ended up on initiation-lists made up by overzealous "devotees" who were very eager to make some positive impression on their Gurudeva. I know more initiated devotees of Narayana Maharaja who are full of doubts and really "on the fringe" than I know "fixed-up" and enthousiastic devotees of his. Sorry to tell you this, but this is just a fact. Also I know quite a number who totally disappeared from the scene shortly after being initiated. This is all due to the vague inition-standards set by Narayana Maharaja and his society of followers. Factually nobody is refused harinama-initiation as long as you are at least declaring to be a vegetarian and chant a few rounds of Hare Krishna-mantra daily. I say "declaring to," because in facuality this isn't checked by anyone. Many devotees who couldn't get initiation in ISKCON because of the high standards for initiation there, just took advantage by taking initiation from Narayana Maharaja (for "the wrong reasons"), without having any decent notion of who Narayana Maharaja actually is, and what he is preaching, being pushed forward by others. This leaves me with a strong suspicion that there is a certain "disciple-hunger" within the personality of Narayana Maharaja. Even though most of his disciples will maintain that his readiness to initiate anyone and everyone is just a token of his unbounded "mercy." But what is this "mercy" good for when people (like me) end up having troubles and confusion after being persuaded and pressured to take (re)initiation by Narayana Maharaja? And why are many of his disciples claiming to be visited in dreams by their guru? Is this a proof of his power? Disciples of Satya Sai Baba say exactly the same thing. At least he never appeared in my dreams...

 

Furthermore I would like to add that many disciples of Narayana Maharaja are undoubtedly sympathetic and qualified personalities. Many of them are quite learned and have a high standard of sadhana. Only as soon as it comes to discuss points of criticism and personal doubts, they always become upset and panic-stricken. "Oh, then you have to write a letter to this Maharaja or that Maharaja, or to Narayana Maharaja himself." In this way they try to secure their own peace of mind, being unable to defend the position and dealings of their own guru-maharaja on the basis of logic and sastric eveidence, it seems. Their only reply is that it is all just a question "of the heart" and of having this specific feeling of "love" that attaches them to their gurudeva, and that one should not engage in useless discussions that will only generate possible doubts. I think that this is a sign of sentimentalism and a tendency towards blind following that were not endorsed by Srila Prabhupada, the Founder-acharya of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness. I have may more things to say, but I will conclude here. Comments are welcome and please excuse me if I offended anyone...

[Guest guest]

the fact, in my opinion, is that overzealous or bad disciples, mass initiation, or initiation of not so aware people and irregularities in procedures mean almost nothing

 

the fact is that very often big acharyas make big (apparent) irregularities and call at their service any kind of people in order to spread krsna consciousness in order to face the new circumstances of kali yuga

 

a perfect example is srila prabhupada

 

another thing to say is that who spreads exactly the message of a previous acharya, can surely do it without apparently following literally his rules and regulations

 

in my more extreme opinion an acharya, a guru, HAS to change something and to do something unexpected... otherwise all could be done through books, tapes, cds, pictures and so on

 

so the matter is very difficult, but i suggest you that your goal has to be to pray krsna to reveal if you have made a good step or not going beyond all external considerations like procedures, irregolarities, initiation of not so convinced followers and so on

 

if we take bhaktisiddhanta as parameter considering externally the behaviours, the ways to preach, to give initiations, to accept disciples,the style, it would be very easy to conclude that srila prabhupada is a deviant... but we know that it is surely not so

[shambu]

Thank you, guest, for your very transcendental reply (without sarcasm at all). On some points you may very well be right. HOWEVER: whenever any acharya introduces novelties in preaching & practice, this is still done so within the bounderies of both sastra-siddhanta and general etiquette (sadacara). If not, his actions will only cause havoc and disunity. There is, for example, a statement in sastra, that says that a guru who initiates a lot of unqualified disciples, will go to hell. It is simply stated like that. Do you think that there is a person claiming to be a Vaisnava-guru or acharya so exceptional and powerful that he can initiate indiscriminately without having to suffer the reactions? That would mean this person is God Himself, and as we all know, guru is not God. This is another misconception.

 

As far as Bhaktisiddhanta is concerned - he only applied the principle of yukta-vairagya. He never went beyond that. And the same can be said of Swami Prabhupada.

 

I think a guru or acharya doesn't HAVE to change something or "do something unexpected." Rather his duty is to preserve the essence of whatever he has received from the previous acharyas. The form may change, according to time, place and circumstances, but the essence will remain.

[Guest guest]

There is, for example, a statement in sastra, that says that a guru who initiates a lot of unqualified disciples, will go to hell. It is simply stated like that. Do you think that there is a person claiming to be a Vaisnava-guru or acharya so exceptional and powerful that he can initiate indiscriminately without having to suffer the reactions?

 

this is exactly what prabhupada has done... or better.. if qualification is revealed by behaviour and activity (principles, japa and so on) we have surely to consider that almost all prabhupada's disciples are absolutely unqualified and prabhupada is in hell.... but it is not so

 

Rather his duty is to preserve the essence of whatever he has received from the previous acharyas. The form may change, according to time, place and circumstances, but the essence will remain.

 

..it is exactly what i wanted to say, the form may change, or the form MUST change because it is obvious that people change, circumstances, places and times change... i am not disciple of narayana maharaja, but, seeing the history of parampara and the behaviours of our previous acharias, i have no difficulty in consider the external behaviour of maharaja as standard

 

up to you to recognize if essence is there

 

hare krishna

[theist]

for your honesty and mature presentation.

[Guest guest]

"up to you to recognize if essence is there"

 

In the end, it's ALL up to you. Everything remains dependent on His Divine Grace and Sri Guru is one, but inner SURRENDER is still required. Criticism is the easiest way to avoid association. Service in DEVOTION is the only way to realize ESSENCE. Aparadha separates us from HER.

 

...also not a disciple/follower of Srila Narayana Maharaja

[shambu]

Thank You for allowing me to share this with you. I may fall sick if I don't reveal my mind to someone sometimes. Other "guest" (last reply), also Thank You. Your comment touches the essence.

[Guest guest]

"Furthermore they adore their guru-maharaja as the factual "spiritual successor" of HDG AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, which is a bold but also unfounded and maybe even offensive claim. Furthermore they adore their guru-maharaja as the factual "spiritual successor" of HDG AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, which is a bold but also unfounded and maybe even offensive claim. I think anyone who wants to put himself on equal (or even higher) level as Swami Prabhupada must be out of his mind and a crude offender."

 

Does Srila AC Bhaktivedanta Swami not consider himself the factual "spiritual successor" of former gurus within the same sampradaya? Does this mean he too wants to put himself on equal (or even higher) level than them and is therefore also a crude offender? What utter nonsense! ALL disciples within a parampara MUST see their gurudeva that same way or they wouldn't believe themselves connected to the disciplic succession. That includes those of Tripurari Maharaja and others.

 

"...Disciplic succession means to accept the disciplic conclusion. -letter to Dinesh 1969"

 

Now that Prabhupada is no longer physically present, should we not expect ANYONE to dare build on what he left us? Does the interior decorator who furnishes a home put his/herself above the contractor who built it, let alone the architect that designed it? Riculous! Is the disciplic conclusion never to be explained further? Sri Guru is ONE! Absolute truth is EVERYWHERE! that's what ABSOLUTE means!

 

"There is, for example, a statement in sastra, that says that a guru who initiates a lot of unqualified disciples, will go to hell. It is simply stated like that. Do you think that there is a person claiming to be a Vaisnava-guru or acharya so exceptional and powerful that he can initiate indiscriminately without having to suffer the reactions?"

 

Since when does ANY acharya let the worry about the possibility they will go to hell disrupt the distribution of Lord Nityanada Prabhu's mercy? Do you really think that should interfere with not just their but OUR mission also? Fear is always at the root of ignorance...protecting and serving the false-self blocks spiritual progress. LOVE has no time for fear based on self-interest of any sort!

 

Let those who wish to linger here in the world of misery, locked within their own fearfulness, continue doing so. That is their God-given right, isn't it? However when they disrupt the faith of others merely to reinforce their own ignorance and lack of genuine realization, due to an inherent inability to SURRENDER personally, what they justify as service becomes the exact opposite. Always done with no offense intended, of course -- more self-protection, just in case!

 

 

[livingentity]

 

Does Srila AC Bhaktivedanta Swami not consider himself the factual "spiritual successor" of former gurus within the same sampradaya? Does this mean he too wants to put himself on equal (or even higher) level than them and is therefore also a crude offender?

 

 

How many times did Srila Prabhupada announce Himself to be spiritual successor in the sampradaya?

 

This is a serious question because I do not remember ever hearing Him say this or read Him saying this.