Is this my Gurudeva?

[Guest guest]

"Do you think that there is a person claiming to be a Do you think that there is a person claiming to be a Vaisnava- guru or acharya so exceptional and powerful that he can initiate indiscriminately without having to suffer the reactions?"

 

Do you think that there is a genuine "Vaisnava- guru or acharya" that is unwilling to "suffer the reactions" for each and every one of us if need be? THIS is why we should feel compassion for our gurudeva! Don't worry, Lord Caitanya will eventually find a way to collect EVERYONE, in spite of themselves. Met another "christian" yesterday, more afraid of Satan than in love with Jesus...motivation through fear and guilt is misused religion, not the true relationship that alone will satisfy the soul. That said, it's true we must reveal our fears to one another in order to have them relieved -- guru, sadhu and shastra together confirm personal realizations. Honestly confessing our own perceived faults, not as a show of false-humility, but to receive the mercy of the vaisnavas is also recommended. One should not be reluctant to share their inner selves, however these forums may not be the proper place, unfortunately. Eagerness to use others apparent shortcomings to establish our own superior position in public, or fit within some cliquish group, is never a good thing. Sorry, Shambu, I'm not referring to you or anyone else in particular. I, too, am driven to speak out occassionally. Should I be mistaken or offensive, I'm prepared to suffer the consequences and usually do. That I must leave to Sri Guru and Gauranga.

[Guest guest]

Srila Prabhupada firmly believed that he alone was carrying out the order of his guru, as well as spreading Lord Sri Caitanya's sankirtan movement. Witness the much misunderstood criticism of his godbrothers, later regretted. This faith gave him the necessary strength to continue through so many challenges, for he felt it was all up to him. At the same time, he would often say he had no love for Krsna and always believed himself the most fallen. He considered that all was being accomplished through the mercy of His Divine Grace Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati.

 

This is how guru acharyas think and feel, so far as I can tell from my own lowly state. To really know, one has to be there themselves. Thus we are seldom in a position to judge others' motivations, certainly not those engaged in full-time devotional service at that level. Srila Prabhupada's guru wrote an excellent piece on his humbly accepting that role. Perhaps someone will remember it better than I. It's not something to be taken lightly, needless to say, nor is it all a bowl of cherries to be envied by anyone.

 

Better we just go on with whatever personal challenges we find ourselves presented with, grateful for the opportunity to serve at all and ever prayerful; recognizing that service is one thing, but the devotional component is a gift from heart to heart, in fact Divine.

[theist]

 

Let those who wish to linger here in the world of misery, locked within their own fearfulness, continue doing so. That is their God-given right, isn't it? However when they disrupt the faith of others merely to reinforce their own ignorance and lack of genuine realization, due to an inherent inability to SURRENDER personally, what they justify as service becomes the exact opposite. Always done with no offense intended, of course -- more self-protection, just in case!

 

 

Yes, but I hear this same sentiment spoken from ISKCON memebrs concerning Narayana Maharaja's disciples who come into their temples and announce that Srila Prabhupada is long gone and now everyone must accept his successor Narayana Maharaja. " Afterall Srila Prabhupada asked Narayana Maharaja to oversee the details of placing his body in samadhi right?Well in India that is seen as a sure sign that he was transfering ISKCON into his hands as his successor."

 

Very disruptive offensive and hurtful talk, with no offense meant, of course.

 

 

 

[theist]

 

Better we just go on with whatever personal challenges we find ourselves presented with, grateful for the opportunity to serve at all and ever prayerful; recognizing that service is one thing, but the devotional component is a gift from heart to heart, in fact Divine.

 

 

[Guest guest]

"Well in India that is seen as a sure sign that he was transfering ISKCON into his hands as his successor."

 

 

If this were true, then, whoever placed Srila Bhaktisiddhanta's body in samadhi, would have have been considered his "successor". And that was not the case.

[theist]

I hope you noted the quotation marks.

[Guest guest]

Again, I am neither a disciple or follower of srila Narayana Maharaja, nor can I defend his followers any more than many of Srila Prabhupada's I've encountered over the years. That's really not my point.

 

Faith is very much an individual matter, as is the highly personal relationship between disciple and guru or God. Philosophical discussion and scriptural understanding can only go so far. God works in mysterious ways, and His Divine Grace is beyond any limitation whatsoever. We may step up, get pulled up or actually shoved up and sometimes we just can't seem to get up at all, for years on end.

 

"Many are called, but few are chosen." Where do we ultimately place our faith, in our own perceptions or His Divine Grace? The prodigal son was given what he well knew was not deserved, but his brother disagreed, thinking his own loyal service entitled him to more.

 

Ultimately, we believe in the Supreme PERSONALITY of Godhead, not some mechanical process of attaining perfection. None of us can learn from another's experience, it's just not that cheap. Transcendental knowledge is imparted from inside, not outside. Devotional service is not some learned skill. At some point, not of our own choice and often by complete surprise, transformation of the heart occurs. Should we the not be inspired and encouraged, seeing that in another?

 

If presented with their tender devotional creepers, can we not be especially careful to avoid showering them with the same old doubts that have held us back since who knows how long? Each must make their own mistakes, for that too is a God-given right. Would I could save all from themselves, but to be honest I can't even save myself!

[Guest guest]

I heard a lecture once from a Swami within ISKCON, who will remain anonymous to avoid possibly prejudiced responses and yet another tangential split on this thread, that described our sampradaya as a bushy tree with many leafy branches, not some mere naked skinny twig.

 

Are we not ALL called to be "sucessors" of those who went before? Didn't Lord Caitanya say we should ALL become guru? Who then can we blame for our inability or unwillingness to rise to the occassion? Factual events have occurred, that is undeniable. How we continue to see them, indeed reality itself, need not remain static however.

 

Faith and devotion are WONDROUS! Read the first post on this thread again, then the ones that follow. How does the chain grow, the doubts link with each other? It saddens me that we can do no more for each other than caution, based on our own reluctance. What's past has already gone, while every word we type is another step into the future...

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

 

I recently went to a temple where Srila Narayana Maharaja was giving a lecture and had the most amazing experience. When he entered the room, tears came to my eyes, and this overwhelming feeling of compassion towards him came from within me. I have never felt anything like it. I keep questioning myself, is this what it feels like or was it just a lot of energy in the room and it affected me like that?

So, my question is, how do you know when you have found your spiritual master?

 

 

Humbly render service to him and submissively inquire from him about the true nature of the self. By doing this you will come to understand whether or not he is your eternal spiritual guide. Don't depend on sentiment, it is through service that the guru will reveal himself.

[Guest guest]

How many times did Srila Prabhupada announce Himself to be spiritual successor in the sampradaya?

This is a serious question because I do not remember ever hearing Him say this or read Him saying this.

 

he personally instructed to be called "founder acharya" in his books and also he gave the parampara' list and so on

 

everything about gurutattva was personally instructed by srila prabhupada. If were not him to reveal his nature, who was there to teach it to us?

[theist]

of ISKCON right?

[Guest guest]

"Humbly render service to him and submissively inquire from him about the true nature of the self. By doing this you will come to understand whether or not he is your eternal spiritual guide. Don't depend on sentiment, it is through service that the guru will reveal himself."

 

Excellent advice indeed!

[Rascal]

What is the problem with all the Vishnavas including the Prabhupada (Prabhupada loves the word Rascal a lot, isn’t it?) I used to respect him very much until a moment ago. Just today I read his comments on Sai Baba. Then I thought it is no offense to Krishna if I use the word Rascal to Prabhupada. Because he never hesitated to use this word against SaiBaba. When Saibaba never said a single derogatory comment against any Vishnava why do they want to say things to him. What harm is he causing to you all. Is it his fault that an atheist like me after seeing him just once from far totally transformed and started going to temples, praying, respecting Vaishnavas and hosting them and hosting Bhajans?

Christians and Muslims do not accept Krishna as god, they say that Krishna is a pervert, a thief etc. They say Shiva Linga is a sexual organ of Man and Woman. Can you tell them that Bhagavatam is the only Sastra and not Bible or Koran? In Bible or Koran (they are Sastras for them like Bhagavatam or Shiva Puran for us!) Krishan/Chaitanay/Shiva was never mentioned. Dose it mean that Krishna is not god? Similarly, if few Vishnavas do not accept SaiBaba as god it does not matter to him or to his devotees. Saibaba is not a Rascal or his devotees. I can sing Krishna Bhajans better than many of you Vishnavas, I can chant more rounds than any of you. This is all because of Sai Grace. The only difference is Saibaba never criticized anybody nor taught me to say bad words.

Prabhupada used the word Rascal when refereeing to SaiBaba. Such a shame on him. He should have at least respected him as a saint. If SaiBaba committed a sin by saying he was god, Prabhupada committed even a bigger sin by calling him Rascal. Because all the ISKON people and other Vishnvas stared saying all sorts of things to him with out even thinking if they are qualified enough to say things to him. After all he dwells and preaches love for god all the time. Be it Krishna’s Bhajan or Shivas Bhajan or Jesus Bhajan. He always talks about Vedas, Krishna, Bhagavatam., Ramyan. Which part of it makes him a Rascal? Is it that he tells “Love all Serve All” that makes him a Rascal? “God is Every Where , learn to see him in his might” is it that makes him a Rascal? Or he teaches Bhajan “Murali Gana Lola Nanda Gopa Bala” is it that makes him a Rascal?

When Gopikas can give their CharanRajj to Krishna as ointment for his headache what problem dose it create to say that Krishna and I are one and same. What type of love I or SaiBaba do not have for Krishna that Gopikas had. I am even better than Goipkas. Krishna once left Goipkas but he never leaves me. you and take away all your name fame power

Wake up Guys. You created so many cults in your own religion. If a Muslim tells you that Allah is the only god, Mohammed is the last guru and Koran is the only Sastra, you guys urinate in your lungis and nod your heads. Then you come back and say things to your own religious leaders. Wake Up Wake Up. What a fool Prabhupada was, in spite of coming from the same religion, he did not accept any thing other than what he thought was right and built an empire. He expected people from other race and religion to obey him and his preaching. What happened? They just poisoned him and sacked all of it. Even Krishna did not come to rescue. (I have seen his video, what a pitiful death)If he had not criticized SaiBaba or other personalities may be Krishna would have come to his rescue.

If any body criticizes SaiBaba or me they will meet the same fate as Prabhupada. A bunch of goons will poison and murder . . This is a curse from a SaiVishnava..

SaiKrishna, forgive me for writing like this against Vishnavas. But I could not hold myself.

All ways in Krishna’ Service

KrishnaPriya Dasi

[bhaktajan]

 

Wake Up Wake Up. What a fool Prabhupada was . . .

 

KrishnaPriya, KrishnaPriya, Hey Hey, Good bye !

KrishnaPriya, KrishnaPriya, Hey Hey, Good bye !

KrishnaPriya, KrishnaPriya, Hey Hey, Good bye !

KrishnaPriya, KrishnaPriya, Hey Hey, Good bye !

KrishnaPriya, KrishnaPriya, Hey Hey, Good bye !

 

the end.

 

[Vedesu]

 

How many times did Srila Prabhupada announce Himself to be spiritual successor in the sampradaya?

 

This is a serious question because I do not remember ever hearing Him say this or read Him saying this.

 

Whatever happened to Living Entity??? Haven't seen her in 2 or 3 years now. Hope she's ok! I heard she had some health problems, but I didn't think it was all that serious. I always enjoyed her posts. And where is Gaurachandra? Similarly, I used to enjoy his posts as well.

[Beggar]

 

If SaiBaba committed a sin by saying he was god, Prabhupada committed even a bigger sin by calling him Rascal.

In this case Prabhupada would say rascal number one. You can be rascal number one hundred.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

I don't know much of anything about Sai Baba, personally, but, if you see your friend being duped by a charlatan, will you warn your friend, or will you let them be duped?

 

As for Srila Prabhupada's departure, why not see it as Sri Krishna bringing him home after so many years of giving his heart and soul--his blood, sweat and tears for distributing the mercy of Mahaprabhu?

[Sridas]

Unless one is a cent per cent pure lover of God 'The poison you chew in others will most definately come to you'

There are none so blind and ignorant as those who will not see.

[Sarva gattah]

 

Looking for a guru. Since guru is external expansion of Supersoul one should ask Him to reveal guru. There is no one closer to you than Supersoul. No one that loves you more and is more desirious of your welfare. No one else more in control of all circumstances to arrange a meeting betweeen you and His external manifestation.The Lord is self revealing.

 

If you are genuin, Guru finds you. It depends on the desires deep in our hearts. Do we want to geninly serve God or do we have some hidden material motive?

 

The more we desire to do Gods work brings a bonafide Spiritual Master to you and that does not happen over night because we have to be convienced by reading what he says beyond sentimentality, until we fully accept him as our Guru and that may take sometime.

[suchandra]

 

If you are genuin, Guru finds you. It depends on the desires deep in our hearts. Do we want to geninly serve God or do we have some hidden material motive?

 

The more we desire to do Gods work brings a bonafide Spiritual Master to you and that does not happen over night because we have to be convienced by reading what he says beyond sentimentality, until we fully accept him as our Guru and that may take sometime.

 

Good points, yes, a guru has to a liberated person.

 

Srila Prabhupada's Letter to Janardana, April 26, 1968:

 

On the whole, you may know that he is not a liberated person, and therefore, he cannot initiate any person to Krishna Consciousness. It requires special spiritual benediction from higher authorities.

..............................................................

Srila Prabhupada's Letter to Satsvarupa, September 20, 1968:

 

"Our relationship is eternal. But if somebody lags behind, so in spite of our eternal relationship one may not meet other at the destination. Just like a flock of birds--although very intimately related, everyone of them has to fly in the sky by individual strength. If one is less strong, the other cannot keep him in the sky. That is the law of nature. So long everyone of us is strong in Krishna Consciousness, there is no doubt, you can fly in the spiritual sky and meet together without failure."

 

 

....................................................

 

Srila Prabhupada's Letter to Jayapataka, July 11, 1969:

 

And anyone who defies and therefore disconnects the relationship with the Spiritual Master can hardly expect the assistance of the Spiritual Master life after life.

 

 

..........................................................

Srila Prabhupada's Letter to Tusta Krsna, December 14, 1972:

 

As for your next question, can only a few pure devotees deliver others, anyone, if he is a pure devotee he can deliver others, he can become spiritual master. But unless he is on that platform he should not attempt it. Then both of them will to go to hell, like blind men leading the blind.

 

...........................................................

 

Srimad-Bhagavatam 6.7.14 - Indra Offends His Spiritual Master, Brhaspati:

 

"Leaders who have fallen into ignorance and who mislead people by directing them to the path of destruction [as described in the previous verse] are, in effect, boarding a stone boat, and so too are those who blindly follow them. A stone boat would be unable to float and would sink in the water with its passengers. Similarly, those who mislead people go to hell, and their followers go with them."

............................................................

 

Caitanya-caritamrta Madhya 15.108 -- The Lord Accepts Prasada at the House of Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya:

 

"Unless one is initiated by a bona fide spiritual master, all his devotional activities are useless. A person who is not properly initiated can descend again into the animal species."

.........................................................

TRANSLATION

One is understood to be in full knowledge whose every act is devoid of desire for sense gratification. He is said by sages to be a worker whose fruitive action is burned up by the fire of perfect knowledge.

 

PURPORT

Only a person in full knowledge can understand the activities of a person in Krsna consciousness. Because the person in Krsna consciousness is devoid of all kinds of sense-gratificatory propensities, it is to be understood that he has burned up the reactions of his work by perfect knowledge of his constitutional position as the eternal servitor of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. He is actually learned who has attained to such perfection of knowledge. Development of this knowledge of the eternal servitorship of the Lord is compared to fire. Such a fire, once kindled, can burn up all kinds of reactions to work.

[madanbhakta]

At the moment, I am studying Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Math and their guru-acharya, Srila Govinda Maharaj. I have read only a fraction of the books of his predecessor, Srila Sridhar Maharaj, and I was impressed of the balance between sentimentality towards Krishna as Supreme God and the logic he presented.

 

If you ever read "Sri Guru and His Grace" by Srila Sridhar Maharaj, he talks about how the guru is as good as God Himself on Earth, being a representative of Krishna, and by surrendering to a Vaishnava, and only by prapatti, we can come back Home, back to God. By both philosophy and sentimentality, we can surely reach the spiritual world of Krishna!

 

The point is, can you ultimately trust your guru to teach you, to take all of your karma and go back to God? Does he blatantly claim with pompousness that he is God Himself, or does he, with great humility, claim to be the servant of the servants of God? If yes, then you are ready for initiation, especially under your chosen guru. If he is not 'bona fide' then your search must go on.

 

One can never come to Krishna in full immensity until one surrenders to a realised spiritual master.

[Sarva gattah]

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Looking for a guru. Since guru is external expansion of Supersoul one should ask Him to reveal guru. There is no one closer to you than Supersoul. No one that loves you more and is more desirious of your welfare. No one else more in control of all circumstances to arrange a meeting betweeen you and His external manifestation.The Lord is self revealing.

 

 

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If you are genuin, Guru finds you. It depends on the desires deep in our hearts. Do we want to geninly serve God or do we have some hidden material motive?

 

The more we desire to do Gods work brings a bonafide Spiritual Master to you and that does not happen over night because we have to be convienced by reading what he says beyond sentimentality, until we fully accept him as our Guru and that may take sometime.

 

 

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The following is by Gita devi dasi

 

I also had a guru who fell down. Whatever I have read or heard, I pray that by sharing it here I will realize a bit of it myself.

 

A Vaishnava will always feel real compassion towards those who, due to hypocrisy, have glided down to a hellish condition. By compassion you can immediately reclaim the power he had to make you miserable! You are now in control.

According to our desires and our merits, Krsna sends us a suitable guru. My former guru was funny, a sweet singer, and a srutidar (any verse he had ever heard, he could recall immediately)! Also he was very friendly towards me. I was attracted to these qualities, and confused them with spiritual advancement.

We shouldn’t blame others for our suffering, though. In this material world sometimes we are the cheaters and other times the cheated. As Sarvabhauma Bhattacharya once quoted from Srimad-Bhagavatam:

 

 

tat te ’nukampam susamiksamano

bhunjana evatma-krtam vipakam

hrd-vag-vapurbhir vidadhan namas te

jiveta yo bhakti-pade sa daya-bhak

 

“My dear Lord, one who earnestly waits for You to bestow Your causeless mercy upon him, all the while patiently suffering the reactions of his past misdeeds and offering You respectful obeisance’s with his heart, words and body, is surely eligible for devotion, for it has become his rightful claim.”(Srimad Bhagavatam 10.14.8)

 

When Jarasanda praised Krsna as a very religious person for holding the gopis’ clothes for them while they stood naked, this so-called glorification was actually an insult because it was said with matsarya.

Envy, or matsarya, is the only emotion, which cannot be dovetailed in serving Krsna.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

Envy, or matsarya, is the only emotion, which cannot be dovetailed in serving Krsna.

 

Is that so? So, if Bhakta X is a very good book distributor, and Bhakta Y is envious of him, Bhakta Y can't work extra hard to become a better book distributor, thus dovetailing his envy?

[Beggar]

 

I'm sorry I asked!

Actually I thought that you made a good point, it was just the tone and I thought the picture captured it.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

Actually I thought that you made a good point, it was just the tone and I thought the pictured captured it.

Well, thanks. I guess the joke's just between the two of us now.

 

Don't the Gopis get jealous of each other at times (while, at other times, they aren't jealous because Krishna is expanding Himself to dance with each of them)? Doesn't it lead to "transcendental competition"?

 

Wasn't there a story here on Audarya recently about the flowering tree, Queen Rukmini, and Queen Chandravali (was it?)?