One who understands his guru's order, the same parampara, he can become guru

[krsna]

This is the end of the famous May 28, 1977 conversation:

 

770528me.vrn

 

 

Satsvarupa: By the votes of the present GBC. Then our next question concerns initiations in the future, particularly at that time when you're no longer with us. We want to know how first and second initiation would be conducted.

 

Prabhupada: Yes. I shall recommend some of you. After this is settled up, I shall recommend some of you to act as officiating acaryas.

 

Tamala Krsna: Is that called rtvik-acarya?

 

Prabhupada: Rtvik, yes.

 

Satsvarupa: Then what is the relationship of that person who gives the initiation and the...

 

Prabhupada: He's guru. He's guru.

 

Satsvarupa: But he does it on your behalf.

 

Prabhupada: Yes. That is formality. Because in my presence one should not become guru, so on my behalf, on my order... Amara ajnaya guru hana. Be actually guru, but by my order.

 

Satsvarupa: So they may also be considered your disciples.

 

Prabhupada: Yes, they are disciples. Why consider? Who?

 

Tamala Krsna: No, he's asking that these rtvik-acaryas, they're officiating, giving diksa. Their... The people who they give diksa to, whose disciple are they?

 

Prabhupada: They're his disciple.

 

Tamala Krsna: They're his disciple.

 

Prabhupada: Who is initiating. He is granddisciple.

 

Satsvarupa: Yes.

 

Tamala Krsna: That's clear.

 

Satsvarupa: Then we have a question concer...

 

Prabhupada: When I order, "You become guru," he becomes regular guru. That's all. He becomes disciple of my disciple. That's it.

 

Satsvarupa: Next we have a question about the BBT. At present, no translation work is to be published without your seeing and approving it. So the question is, is there any system for publishing works in the future that you may not see? For example, we've heard suggested that the Padma Purana or the Sat-Sandarbha may be translated. But what would the system be to insure the parampara if you would not personally see these translations?

 

Prabhupada: That you have to examine expertly.

 

Tamala Krsna: In other words, there's no set principle that only the works which you have already translated can be published by the BBT. If there is some worthy translation of a bona fide Vedic reference, if it's properly done, the BBT could publish it.

 

Prabhupada: That we are doing, just like Hindi. We are doing other languages. If it is properly translated, it can be...

 

Tamala Krsna: Even if it's a work which you have not yet translated yourself.

 

Prabhupada: No, no, no, the principle is... Just like my translation, another person translating into Hindi or other languages, we are publishing. Similarly, if somebody has translated properly, it can be published. But amongst our disciples, I don't think there are many who can translate properly.

 

Ramesvara: None. We're not eager to publish anything which is not perfect, because you have already set the highest standard for the BBT. The name BBT means the highest standard right now in the world.

 

Prabhupada: That is good answer.

 

Kirtanananda: Therefore, Srila Prabhupada, we think that you cannot leave us very soon.

 

Prabhupada: I don't want. But if I am obliged, what can I do?

 

Kirtanananda: If you don't want, Krsna will not want.

 

Prabhupada: A realized soul, must be. Otherwise, simply by imitating A-B-C-D will not help. My purports are liked by people because it is presented as practical experience. (aside /images/graemlins/smile.gif It is within the mouth.

 

Bhavananda: I'm sorry.

 

Prabhupada: Such a nice instrument, (laughter) that it must enter into the mouth. Then it will act. That kind of instrument not required. It must remain three miles off. Our translation must be documents. They are not ordinary... One cannot become unless one is very realized. It is not A-B-C-D translation.

 

Bhagavan: It's not a matter of scholarship.

 

Prabhupada: And Caitanya Mahaprabhu says, amara ajnaya guru hana. One can understand the order of Caitanya Mahaprabhu, he can become guru. Or one who understands his guru's order, the same parampara, he can become guru. And therefore I shall select some of you. (hums)

 

Satsvarupa: That's all the questions.

[Kulapavana]

"Yes. That is formality. Because in my presence one should not become guru, so on my behalf, on my order... Amara ajnaya guru hana. Be actually guru, but by my order."

 

This is how the guru process was always set up in our tradition.

 

The problem is not with the process - the problem is with the people who follow it. Adoption in 1977 of the ritvik system as advocated by some today WOULD HAVE SOLVED NOTHING. The same abuses of power would have occured, under a different label. Adopting this system now would be equally pointless.

 

[yasodanandana]

i completely agree with kulapavana...

 

one can have power and distinction because he's guru or because he's the ritvik of the guru

 

if he's not pure the result is the same

 

(and if he's pure... he's a real guru, not only a simple officiant)

[Guest guest]

"it is best to not accept any disciples" (C.C: Madhya 7.130, purport)

[Guest guest]

Who is an Acarya

 

Some foolish students have accepted the statements of Lord Caitanya conditionally. According to them, the spiritual master fully conversant with the science of Krsna, yet not born in a brahmana family, can be an instructing spiritual master, but not an initiating spiritual master. They do not know that there is hardly any difference between the two classes of spiritual masters. According to them, a caste initiator or caste goswami, by dint of his hereditary blood lineage, becomes the real spiritual master, while a person knowing all about Sri Krsna can only become an instructor. They foolishly think that the position of the initiating spiritual master is greater than that of the instructing spiritual master. However, the matter is very clearly and conclusively discussed in the Caitanya-caritamrta (Adi-lila 1.47):

 

siksa-guruke ta’ jani krsnera svarupa

antaryami, bhakta-srestha–ei dui rupa

 

"One should know the instructing spiritual master to be the Personality of Krsna. Sri Krsna manifests Himself as the Supersoul and as the greatest devotee of the Lord."

 

In the Manu-samhita, the qualification of an acarya is described as follows: "A spiritual master is a twice-born brahmana able to train his disciple to instruct others on the Vedas." In the Vayu Purana, the acarya is described as follows: "One who knows the essence of the scriptures, establishes the truth of them, and conducts his activities according to the regulative principles of the scriptures is thus known as an acarya."

 

The acarya or spiritual master is an empowered incarnation of the Personality of Godhead. He is not to be considered a plenary portion of Godhead, but at the same time the spiritual master is certainly very near and dear to Godhead. The acarya appears before the disciple as the bona fide representative of Godhead. Such an acarya has no duty other than to serve the Personality of Godhead and give shelter to the willing disciple on Godhead’s behalf.

 

If a person becomes a so-called spiritual master without being engaged wholly in the service of the Personality of Godhead, nobody should accept him as guru and his activity should not be recognized. A guru’s character must be fully representative of the Personality of Godhead, and this will be demonstrated by his full-time engagement in the service of Godhead. A real acarya is sometimes envied by the sense-gratifying masses. However, the acarya is a nondifferent extension of the transcendental body of the Personality of Godhead. Anyone envying such a spiritual master will certainly suffer the consequence of being bereft of the Personality of Godhead’s blessings.

 

The spiritual master, although the eternal servitor of Lord Caitanya, is always to be respected as much as Lord Caitanya. The spiritual master is the personality who exhibits the nature of Lord Caitanya. It should never be concluded that the spiritual master is exactly one and the same with Godhead as the mayavadi philosophers think. The Vaisnavas accept the spiritual master in terms of acintya-bhedabheda-tattva, simultaneously one with and different from the Personality of Godhead.

 

[krsna]

sorry forgot to log in

[Kulapavana]

Srila Prabhupada: "They foolishly think that the position of the initiating spiritual master is greater than that of the instructing spiritual master"

 

that foolishness is widespread in our movement. they seem to forget that ours is essentially a sampradaya of the INSTRUCTING spiritual masters. Lord Krishna did not initiate Arjuna. While initiation is certainly very important in the process, a proper perspective must be kept as to the real essence of the guru business: instructing.

[krsna]

The essence of my spiritual life is that I am being instructed at every moment of every day by that great acarya spiritual master who is sitiuated above and beyond this material world.I know it,I live it and I'll leave this body by realising it.Thank Krsna that Sri Guru has entered into my heart and soul.

[krsna]

"that foolishness is widespread in our movement. they seem to forget that ours is essentially a sampradaya of the INSTRUCTING spiritual masters"

 

***********************************

 

Thing is ,if we make it a movement of INITIATING spiritual masters we can market and monopolize a very lucrative guru business of money,followers,temples,etc....

[Kulapavana]

yours are certainly very fine and admirable spiritual sentiments. we just need to remember that proper initiation is a very important part of our tradition as well... /images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

...it is the balance between the extremes that marks the Aryan path...

[theist]

 

we just need to remember that proper initiation is a very important part of our tradition as well...

 

 

Why?

[Kulapavana]

Look, this is what we have done for millenia in the Vedic tradition. this is our system of rituals of passage. this is the Aryan way. and that should be enough... I do not even want to go in the mystical aspect of initiation, but remember:

 

the sacred thread is not just a piece of cotton string.

 

initiation is a formality and a ritual, but a very important one at that. perhaps for you it is too early to consider it seriously, but dont knock it down. all our acharyas accepted it fully. that should be enough as well.

[ancient_paztriot]

Maybe people will just loose all motive to become pure if that liberated standard is compromised.

 

I think we've seen just that.

 

We can also change the standards for bank robbery or abortion or whatever.

[Guest guest]

Is it possible to make it back to Godhead if you spend your life unitiated and you make no disciples?

[Kulapavana]

"Is it possible to make it back to Godhead if you spend your life unitiated"

 

I'm sure it is. Lord Krishna can do anything He likes. You just have to please Him enough.

[theist]

Very important but often the most neglected of words.

 

 

and why not?

Look, this is what we have done for millenia in the Vedic tradition. this is our system of rituals of passage. this is the Aryan way. and that should be enough...

 

 

It's not enough. You should know why you doing what you are doing. Especially if people insist on it as a prerequisite for knowing God!

 

 

I do not even want to go in the mystical aspect of initiation, but remember:

 

 

We should want to for therein is where the essence lies.

 

 

the sacred thread is not just a piece of cotton string.

 

 

Then here is where you explain what else it is.

 

 

initiation is a formality and a ritual, but a very important one at that.

 

 

I don't view initiation as a ritual or a formality, except in it's most superfical aspect. I see initiation as an absolute necessity, but I suspect we view the word differently.

 

 

perhaps for you it is too early to consider it seriously, but dont knock it down.

 

 

Knock it down. I just asked "why". Now maybe you should ask yourself why this one word question brought up so much defensiveness in you.

 

 

all our acharyas accepted it fully. that should be enough as well.

 

 

Are you sure they all performed this ritual? I'm not. Anyway I am sure those acaryas could also answer the question 'why' as well.

 

Please read the below

[Guest guest]

After studying Srila Prabhupada's books I accept the disciplic succession. - a.m.

[Kulapavana]

this strikes me as not really the right forum for the explanation of the fine mystical aspects of initiation, and yes, I only have limited knowledge.

 

it is the question of defending the tradition, not defensiveness that hides a problem. and yes, I am tired of people knocking down the need for initiation without understanding our tradition very well.

 

when I accepted initiation 25 years ago, I knew exactly what I was doing, and no - it is not a prerequisite for knowing God. I have never said that. but even doing things just based on faith and tradition is not making anyone "bad", "insincere" or "naive".

 

the reasons for initiation I gave you, however inadequate in your mind, are valid and sufficient for many. name the Vaishnava acharyas in our sampradaya who did not take diksha or wear the sacred thread? maybe Srivasa Thakura...

 

and finally: yes, initiation can mean different things to different people, but we both know we are talking about diksha. anyway, we both made our points clear.

[ancient_paztriot]

Theist and I have also seen the other extreme. So have you.

 

Theists and I are both open to the possibility of anyone crossing the line and achieving that liberated status. But we hate the imposters.

 

We gossips tend to indulge our postions. I do it too. But I think WE all agree on this guru issue. Is there no solidarity anymore?

[Kulapavana]

yes, I have seen the problems created by all kinds of unqualified devotees (and not just the 11 gurus) firsthand. after years of very sincere and successful service I was kicked out of the temple because I refused to be a part of such cheating.

 

this "other extreme" was possible because the Vedic system of humble gurus devoid of material power was rejected in ISKCON. other Vedic traditions were rejected as well... dishonorable non-Aryan ways (the end justifies the means, etc) were widely accepted and the cheating was going on from the guru issue, to doing "the pick" on the streets... I cant tell you how ashamed I was at times because of actions of these "imposters"...

 

the problem is not with the tradition. the problem is with people who only pretend to follow it, or those who reject it outright.

[theist]

I don't think such topics are too esoteric to speak of. this is not rasa-lila afterall. We are talking about the beginning of true spiritual life.

 

Yes paz the extremes are there and glaring. Weren't the magnificent 11 all "properly intiated? How about those that were pedophiles. They were adorned in shika robes and wore tilak as well as thread. Do we accept that as actual spiritual rebirth?

 

So when someone says you must be initiated I agree as long as they are talking of real initiation. Otherwise perhaps they shouldn't be speaking and causing confusion.

 

The focus should be on the esoteric and the offical ceremonies can be there also be they should not receive such emphasis as to give the impression that more is happening then truly is.

[ancient_paztriot]

"this "other extreme" was possible because the Vedic system of humble gurus devoid of material power was rejected in ISKCON."

 

I've never heard it quite put like that. I agree.

 

Problem is, when you're not allowed to practice the truth, then lies become the new tradition. I mean who understands just minding your own business anymore? We slave away for business or governments that are as agressive as invading armies.

[ancient_paztriot]

Not esoteric… offensive.

 

So much of it is subjective… based on preference of the individual and what he believes and pursues.

 

He may think he has a liberated guru. He may be right. You may be wrong and offensive in suggesting there aren't any. You might offend someone even telling the truth.

 

I prefer to leave the subject alone because of the possibilities and the nature of the commitment. Babhru recently suggested that someone take his marriage advice somewhere else. I see the guru issue alot like that.

 

Of coarse it can be handled logically, but it is an emotionally charged issue… like abortion. Devotees rarely - if ever - move from their positions on this. But they will not hesitate to be offensive in their self-righteousness.

 

I can't remember an exception.

 

But let's not forget we're talking about supposed superiors. People who may have a better program than yours (or mine). Are we in a postion to criticize?

 

Seems you'd have to be on a pedestal to make those very insightful decisions about people you may have never met. A liberted soul can see from Krsna's perspective as to our position. But our knowledge is always filtered by our own ego. Our positions are mysteries to each other. Some are going. Some are coming. You you tell? How many fingers are pointing at you when you point?

 

We all more or less have a good idea of liberation based on the experience of Prabhupada. But big problems insue when we start pointing fingers and saying this person is 30%, that one 60… and so on. This is not reasonable.

[yasodanandana]

 

In reply to:

------

we just need to remember that proper initiation is a very important part of our tradition as well...

------

Why?

 

simply because personal guidance by a pure devotee is essential, and naturally (phisiologically??!?!?) if this pure devotee has a present master he brings us to him to take initiation, if his guru maharaja is gone in the spiritual world he himself gives us initiation...

 

i would say, as a perfect ignorant of the english language, that initiation can be a "side effect" of the teaching

 

what do you think?

[ancient_paztriot]

And so does hope - for now.

 

If one carefully considers that no liberated persons are available, then he is right to wait instead of just getting "stamped". That can also be sincerity.

 

You can suggests otherwise, but he may not accept your opinion, right or wrong. The fighting starts when we try to prove our opinion to others. But truth is duality. Both positions right. Both postions wrong.

 

The truth comes in the application to KC.