Unnecessary association with women is strictly prohibited. This is human civilization

krsna · May 28, 2004

"Unnecessary association with women ... is strictly prohibited. This is human civilization. A civilization that allows men to mix unrestrictedly with women is an animal civilization. In Kali-yuga, people are extremely liberal, but mixing with women and talking with them as equals actually constitutes an uncivilized way of life." SB 7.12.8 Purport)

A man is always famous for his aggression toward a beautiful woman, and such aggression is sometimes considered rape. Although rape is not legally allowed, it is a fact that a woman likes a man who is very expert at rape." (SB 4.25.41 purport)

"Women, especially beautiful young women, invoke the dormant lusty desires of a man. Therefore, according to Manu-samhita, every woman should be protected, either by her husband, by her father or by her grown sons. Without such protection, a woman will be exploited. Indeed, women like to be exploited by men. As soon as a woman is exploited by a man, she becomes a common prostitute." (SB 8.9.9 purport)

"You ask about marriage, yes, actually I want that every woman in the Society should be married. But what is this training to become wives and mothers? No school is required for that, simply association.... A woman's real business is to look after household affairs, keep everything neat and clean, and if there is sufficient milk supply available, she should always be engaged in churning butter, making yogurt, curd, so many nice varieties, simply from milk. The woman should be cleaning, sewing, like that. So if you simply practice these things yourselves and show examples, they will learn automatically, one doesn't have to give formal instruction in these matters." – (Letter to: Chaya dasi, Feb 16, 1972)

Prabhupada also says that women are like children: "As for behavior, there are many rules and regulations guiding human behavior, such as the Manu-samhita, which is the law of the human race. Even up to today, those who are Hindu follow the Manu-samhita. Laws of inheritance and other legalities are derived from this book. Now, in the Manu-samhita it is clearly stated that a woman should not be given freedom. That does not mean that women are to be kept as slaves, but they are like children. Children are not given freedom, but that does not mean that they are kept as slaves." – BG 16.7p

Srimad-Bhagavatam / Prabhupada verse & purport:

"Urvasi said: My dear King, you are a man, a hero. Don't be impatient and give up your life. Be sober and don't allow the senses to overcome you like foxes. Don't let the foxes eat you. In other words, you should not be controlled by your senses. Rather, you should know that the heart of a woman is like that of a fox. There is no use making friendship with women."

PURPORT

"Canakya Pandita has advised, visvaso naiva kartavyah strisu raja-kulesu ca: 'Never place your faith in a woman or a politician.' Unless elevated to spiritual consciousness, everyone is conditioned and fallen, what to speak of women, who are less intelligent than men. Women have been compared to sudras and vaisyas (striyo vaisyas tatha sudrah). On the spiritual platform, however, when one is elevated to the platform of Krsna consciousness, whether one is a man, woman, sudra or whatever, everyone is equal. Otherwise, Urvasi, who was a woman herself and who knew the nature of women, said that a woman's heart is like that of a sly fox. If a man cannot control his senses, he becomes a victim of such sly foxes. But if one can control the senses, there is no chance of his being victimized by sly, fox-like women. Canakya Pandita has also advised that if one has a wife like a sly fox, he must immediately give up his life at home and go to the forest.

mata yasya grhe nasti / bharya capriya-vadini / aranyam tena gantavyam / yatharanyam tatha grham (Canakya-sloka 57) – "Krsna conscious grhasthas must be very careful of the sly fox woman. If the wife at home is obedient and follows her husband in Krsna consciousness, the home is welcome. Otherwise one should give up one's home and go to the forest."

Hitvatma-patam grham andha-kupam / vanam gato yad dharim asrayeta – (Bhag. 7.5.5) – "One should go to the forest and take shelter of the Lotus feet of Hari, the Supreme Personality of Godhead." – (SB 9.14.37)

"Devotee (1): They said that the man cannot be convicted of rape if he honestly believes that the woman consented to his raping her.

Prabhupada: Yes, that is law always. Rape means without consent, sex. Otherwise there is no rape. There was a rape case in Calcutta, and the lawyer was very intelligent. He some way or other made the woman admit, "Yes, I felt happiness." So he was released. "Here is consent." And that's a fact. Because after all, sex, rape or no rape, they will feel some pleasure. So the lawyer by hook and crook made the woman agree, "Yes, I felt some pleasure.Now, there is consent." So he was released. After all, it is an itching sensation. So either by force or by willingly, if there is itching, everyone feels relieved itching it. That's a psychology. It is not that the woman do not like rape. They like sometimes. They willingly. That is the psychology. Outwardly they show some displeasure, but inwardly they do not. This is the psychology." – (Morning Walk – May 11, 1975, Perth)

Bhagavatam Translation & Purport

TRANSLATION

"A living entity who, as a result of attachment to a woman in his previous life, has been endowed with the form of a woman, foolishly looks upon maya in the form of a man, her husband, as the bestower of wealth, progeny, house and other material assets.

PURPORT

From this verse it appears that a woman is also supposed to have been a man in his (her) previous life, and due to his attachment to his wife, he now has the body of a woman. Bhagavad-Gita confirms this; a man gets his next life's birth according to what he thinks of at the time of death. If someone is too attached to his wife, naturally he thinks of his wife at the time of death, and in his next life he takes the body of a woman. Similarly, if a woman thinks of her husband at the time of death, naturally she gets the body of a man in the next life. In the Hindu scriptures, therefore, woman's chastity and devotion to man is greatly emphasized. A woman's attachment to her husband may elevate her to the body of a man in her next life, but a man's attachment to a woman will degrade him, and in his next life he will get the body of a woman. We should always remember, as it is stated in Bhagavad-Gita, that both the gross and subtle material bodies are dresses; they are the shirt and coat of the living entity. To be either a woman or a man only involves one's bodily dress. The soul in nature is actually the marginal energy of the Supreme Lord. Every living entity, being classified as energy, is supposed to be originally a woman, or one who is enjoyed.

****** In the body of a man there is a greater opportunity to get out of the material clutches; there is less opportunity in the body of a woman. *********

In this verse it is indicated that the body of a man should not be misused through forming an attachment to women and thus becoming too entangled in material enjoyment, which will result in getting the body of a woman in the next life. A woman is generally fond of household prosperity, ornaments, furniture and dresses. She is satisfied when the husband supplies all these things sufficiently. The relationship between man and woman is very complicated, but the substance is that one who aspires to ascend to the transcendental stage of spiritual realization should be very careful in accepting the association of a woman. In the stage of Krsna consciousness, however, such restriction of association may be slackened because if a man's and woman's attachment is not to each other but to Krsna, then both of them are equally eligible to get out of the material entanglement and reach the abode of Krsna. As it is confirmed in Bhagavad-Gita, anyone who seriously takes to Krsna consciousness-whether in the lowest species of life or a woman or of the less intelligent classes, such as the mercantile or laborer class-will go back home, back to Godhead, and reach the abode of Krsna. A man should not be attached to a woman, nor should a woman be attached to a man. Both man and woman should be attached to the service of the Lord. Then there is the possibility of liberation from material entanglement for both of them. (SB 3.31.41)

Here's an ACBSP quote on sex...

"It is a psychological fact that when a woman at the age of puberty meets a man and the man satisfies her sexually, she will love that man for the rest of her life, regardless who he is. Thus so-called love within this material world is nothing but sexual satisfaction." (SB 4.25.42 Purport)

"As women, Shudras and degraded twice-born men were unfitted for hearing the Veda, the Muni (Vyasa) with a view to their welfare composed the narrative called the Mahabharata." –

(strii-shudra-dvijabandhuunaam trayi na shruti-gocharaa I karma shreyasi muudhaanaam shreyah eva bhaved iha I iti bhaaratam aakhyaanam krpayaa Muninaa krtam) – Bhagavata Purana 1.4.25 –

Commenting on this verse, the Vaishnava sage Srila Prabhupad who founded the Hare Krshna movement says that women and shudras are "less intelligent classes" and "devoid of the necessary qualifications to understand the purpose of the transcendental Vedas".

August 2, 1976 – Room Conversation – Paris

Prabhupada: In, actually, in Bengal, Bengal has lost its original culture. In other provinces the brahmana class, they are keeping very strictly the original culture. Even a brahmana would not accept foodstuff prepared by his wife, because woman is considered sudra. The woman, when she becomes the wife of a brahmana, then she is called brahmani, but she's not offered brahminical culture. She remains as sudra. So therefore a strict brahmana does not accept foodstuff prepared by his wife. .... BG 9.29-32

New York, December 20, 1966: "Because in India, according to the caste system, or varnasrama-dharma, the brahmana and ksatriyas are considered to be the highest in the society, and the vaisyas, a little less than them, and sudras, they are not taken into account. In the similarly, woman class, they are taken as sudra, sudra. SB 1.5.2

Los Angeles, January 10, 1968: And who are ordinary class of men? Now, stri-sudra-dvija-bandhu. Stri, woman class, are taken as less intelligent. It is not partiality; it is stated in the sastra and practically it is so. So woman class, stri, and sudra. Sudra means laborer class. Stri, sudra, and dvija-bandhu. Dvija-bandhu means born of a high family... The brahmana, ksatriya and the vaisyas, they are considered as in the higher status of social life, and the sudras... It is everywhere. It is not that... SB 7.9.10

Mayapur, February 17, 1976: "Krsna says even papa-yoni, less than the sudra... Sudra is also papa-yoni. Even woman is called papa-yoni according to strict...

Sri Sri Rukmini Dvaraka-natha – Deity Installation -- Los Angeles, July 16, 1969:

Striyah sudrAs tatha vaisyah, including woman and sudras and vaisyas, they are considered as less intelligent. They are considered as less intelligent. Therefore, according to Vedic system, a boy born in a brahmana family, he is allowed all the samskaras, reformatory, purificatory process, but the girl is not. Why? Now, because a girl has to follow her husband. So if her husband is brahmana, automatically she becomes brahmana. There is no need of separate reformation. And by chance she may be married with a person who is not a brahmana, then what is the use of making her a brahmana? That is the general method. So therefore the woman, even born in a brahmana family, a woman is taken as woman, not as brahmana. But Krsna says, "Never mind. Even if she is woman, even she is sudra, even she is vaisya, or any other, I mean to say, family born in, never mind."

*IT IS INTERESTING TO NOTE HERE HOW PRABHUPADA CORRECTS HIMSELF AFTER SAYING THAT A WOMAN IS A SUDRA, VAISYA, OR ANY OTHER BY SPECIFICALLY SAYING ****FAMILY BORN IN*****. I UNDERSTAND THIS TO MEAN THAT WHEN A WOMAN IS CALLED A VAISYA, IT SPECIALLY REFERS TO THE FAMILY SHE IS BORN INTO. NOT THAT SHE IS HERSELF INDEPENDENTLY A VAISYA. LIKEWISE WHEN A WOMAN IS CALLED A BRAHMANI OR KSATRIYANI AND SUDRANI.

Arrival -- Philadelphia, July 11, 1975: "Artificially, to make man and woman equal, that may be artificially your sentiment, but actually it is not the fact."

Pandal Lecture – Bombay, January 12, 1973: They are simply proud of getting birth in higher families. They are called dvija-bandhu. They are equal to woman and the sudra.

January 31, 1977 – Room conversation – Bhubaneshwar

Satsvarüpa: Yes. (break) Mainly it's about the girls who are over ten. They were in Våndävana and discussed this with Jagadéça, but they couldn't settle up, so they wanted to know what you think. Their idea is that... As of now, there is no plan for a school for the girls over ten, but just that they should return to their parents and not get any more schooling. But they're thinking that there should be, and one reason is that you said in France that the girls could learn these sixty-four arts. So they were thinking that there should be a school for girls over ten, and that it should be situated in India. One reason is that in India our teachers can take help from Indian Life Member ladies who know these arts. Our Western devotees don't know them, the cooking and painting and things like this, but the Indian women do. ...

Prabhupada: My opinion is already there according to the... They should be chaste, faithful to husband. Little literary knowledge, they can read. That's all. Not very much.

Satsvarupa: As for the details of where and how to do this, that should be worked out by the GBC.

Prabhupada: Yes.

April 29, 1977 - Conversation - Bombay

Prabhupada: So far gurukula is concerned, that also, I have given program.

They have given the name of "girls." We are not going to do that.

Tamala Kåñëa: What is that?

Prabhupada: Girls. Boys and girls. That is dangerous.... Girls should be completely separated from the very beginning. They are very dangerous.

Tamala Kåñëa: So we're... I thought there were girls in Vrindävana now. They said that they're going to have the girls' gurukula behind the boys' gurukula. Gopäla was talking about that.

Prabhupada: No, no, no. No girls.

Tamala Kåñëa: It should be in another city or somewhere else.

Prabhupada: Yes. They should be taught how to sweep, how to stitch...

Tamala Kåñëa: Clean.

Prabhupada: ...clean, cook, to be faithful to the husband.

Tamala Kåñëa: They don't require a big school.

Prabhupada: No, no. That is mistake. They should be taught how to become obedient to the husband.

Tamala Kåñëa: Yeah, you won't learn that in school.

Prabhupada: Little education, they can...

Tamala Kåñëa: Yeah. That they can get at home also.

Prabhupada: They should be stopped, this practice of prostitution.

Prabhupada: Ordinary education is sufficient, ABCD. This is all nonsense, so big, big, sound education and later on become a prostitute. What is this education? (laughter) To make them prostitute, it doesn't require education.... (Conversation: July 10, 1975, Chicago)

Bhagavad Gita lecture in Hawaii, February 3rd, 1975

..To understand Brahman is not the business of tiny brain. Alpha-medhasan... There are two Sanskrit words, alpa-medhasa and sumedhasa. Alpa-medhasa means having little brain substance. Physiologically, within the brain there are brain substance. It is found that the brain substance in man is found up to 64 ounce. They are very highly intellectual persons. And in woman the brain substance is not found more than 34 ounce. You'll find, therefore, that there is no very great scientist, mathematician, philosopher, among women. You'll never find because their brain substance cannot go. Artificially do not try to become equal with men. That is not allowed in the Vedic sastra. Na striyah svatantratam arhati . . . (Lecture: Bg. 16.7, February 3, 1975, Hawaii)

---- Woman, they are generally equipped with the qualities of passion and ignorance. And men also maybe, but man can be elevated to the platform of goodness. Woman cannot be. Woman cannot be. Therefore if the husband is nice and the woman follows, woman becomes faithful and chaste to the husband, then their both life becomes successful. There are three qualities of nature: sattva, rajas, tamas. So rajas, tamas generally, that is the quality of woman. And man can become to the platform of goodness. Therefore, initiation, brahminical symbolic representation is given to the man, not to the woman. (Lecture: S-B 1.3.17, Sept. 22, 1972, Los Angeles)

July 9, 1975, Chicago

Woman reporter: When you came to Chicago last week you said you were going to tell us some of the solutions to our problems in this country. Can you tell me what some of those solutions are?

Prabhupada: Solution not only of your country or our country, it is the solution for the whole human society. I told that as there are different divisions in the same body, the head, the arms, the belly, and the leg... Although the body is one, but there are different parts for different function. Then the body is going nicely. The head is the most important part of the body. So if the head is not in order, then, in spite of presentation of other parts of the body, hands, leg, the body is useless. Just like a madman. Madman, this brain is not in order. Therefore despite the presentation of the hands, legs, and other things, it is useless. Similarly, the human society should be divided into four classes according to quality. Not everyone is on the same level. So for, even for material purposes there must be four divisions: first-class, second-class, third-class, fourth-class, means... The definition of the first-class, find out. This is the definition of the first-class man.

Nitai: samo damas tapah saucam / ksantir arjavam eva ca / jnanam vijnanam astikyam / brahma-karma svabhava-jam – "

Peacefulness, self-control, austerity, purity, tolerance, honesty, wisdom, knowledge, and religiousness—these are the qualities by which the brahmanas work."

Prabhupada: This is first-class man. Then second-class man?

Nitai: sauryam tejo dhrtir daksyam / yuddhe capy apalayanam / danam isvara-bhavas ca / ksatram karma svabhava-jam –

"Heroism, power, determination, resourcefulness, courage in battle, generosity, and leadership are the qualities of work for the ksatriyas."

Prabhupada: This is second-class. And then third-class?

Nitai: krsi-go-raksya-vanijyam / vaisya-karma svabhava-jam / paricaryatmakam karma / sudrasyapi svabhava-jam …

Prabhupada: That is fourth-class. First of all, third-class.

Nitai: Third-class: "Farming, cattle raising and business are the qualities of work for the vaisyas,..."

Prabhupada: Not cattle raising, cow protection.

Nitai: Cow protection.

Prabhupada: Yes. Farming and cow protection and trade, this is meant for the third-class division. And worker, fourth-class. These divisions must be there. Then the society will go on very nicely. Exactly the same example, that if the different parts of the body—the brain, the arms, the belly and the legs—all are in order, the bodily function will go on very nicely. This is natural.

Woman reporter: Where do women fit into these four classes?

Prabhupada: That I already explained. Women's position is subordinate to man. So if the man is first-class, the woman is first-class. If the man is second-class, the woman is second-class. If the man is third-class, the woman is third-class. In this... because woman is meant for assisting man, so the woman becomes suitable according to the man, her husband.

Woman reporter: Would you say that women are inferior to men?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Woman reporter: Why?

Prabhupada: By physiological condition. Just like you are. Your bodily features are different from the man's features. You cannot deny it. So according to the bodily features, the psychological condition and everything is there. How you can deny it?

Woman reporter: Do you think that I am inferior to you?

Prabhupada: It is not the question of inferior or superior. Different. Now you take one inferior or superior. That is your calculation. But the bodily features are different. That is material. But spiritually, they are all one. Materially... Just like your bodily feature and a man's bodily feature is different. Now, so far question of inferior, superior, that is your calculation. But we say that by nature, a woman and man is different.

Woman reporter: What does this mean as far as whether women can do the same things that men can do, or whether women can lead people?

Prabhupada: Well, women can bear children, but the man cannot. Is it possible to bear children? A man can become pregnant? Is it possible?

Woman reporter: No.

Prabhupada: Physically... Therefore there are so many things which is possible in man and which is not possible in woman, by nature. How you can say that they are of the same nature?

Woman reporter: I'm not saying they're the same. What can...

Prabhupada: Then if you not saying that, then they are different in their physiological condition. So now this physiological condition, you may calculate, "This is better, this is better." That is your calculation. Our calculation is the man and woman are different in their physiological condition.

Woman reporter: But you say women are subordinate to men.

Prabhupada: Yes, that is also natural. Because when the husband and wife are there or the father and daughter is there, so the daughter is subordinate to the father and the wife is subordinate to the husband.

Woman reporter: What happens when women are not subordinate to men?

Prabhupada: Then there is disruption. There is disruption, social disruption. If the woman does not become subordinate to man, then there is social disruption. Therefore, in the western countries there are so many divorce cases because the woman does not agree to become subordinate to man. That is the cause.

Woman reporter: What advice do you have to women who do not want to be subordinate to men?

Prabhupada: It is not my advice, but it is the advice of the Vedic knowledge that woman should be chaste and faithful to man.

Woman reporter: What should we do in the United States? We're trying to make women equal with men.

Prabhupada: I am not trying. You are already not equal with the man because in so many respects, your functions are different and man's functions are different. Why do you say artificially they are equal? As I told you that the husband and wife—the wife has to become pregnant, not the husband. How you can change this, both the husband and wife will be pregnant? Is it possible? Is it possible?

Woman reporter: No, it is not.

Prabhupada: Then by nature one has to function differently from the other.

Woman reporter: But why does this mean...?

Prabhupada: So how you can change?

Woman reporter: Why does this mean that women have to be subordinate?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Woman reporter: Just because they bear children and men can't?

Prabhupada: Well, by nature... No, as soon as you get children, you require support from the husband. Otherwise you are in difficulty.

Woman reporter: Many women have children and have no support from husbands. They have no husband.

Prabhupada: Then they have to take support from others. You cannot deny that. The government is giving you support. But the government is embarrassed. If the husband supports the wife and children, the government is relieved of so much welfare contribution. So that is a problem.

Woman reporter: What happens when women support men?

Prabhupada: First of all try to understand that you depend. The... After man and woman unite, there is children, and the man goes away, and you are embarrassed. The woman is embarrassed. Why? Why this is, is made possible? A man and woman unites, and the woman becomes pregnant, and the husband goes away. Then the poor woman is embarrassed with the child. She has to beg from the government. So do you think it is very nice thing? The Vedic idea is that woman should be married to a man and the man should take charge of the woman and the children independently so that they do not become a burden to the government or to the public.

Woman reporter: Do you think the social unrest...

Prabhupada: I am thinking like this. You give me the answer. Simply you go on questioning. I question you, do you think this burden to the government or the

public is good?

Woman reporter: I don't understand what you're saying. Nitai: Do you think that the burden caused when the husband goes away from the wife, that burden to the government is good?

Woman reporter: No.

Prabhupada: So that has happened. Because the woman does not agree to be subordinate—she wants equal freedom—so the husband goes away and the woman is embarrassed with the children. And it becomes a burden to the government.

Woman reporter: Is there anything wrong when the woman works?

Prabhupada: There are so many things wrong. But first thing is the wife, the woman, the wife of somebody, and the child born by somebody, they should become burden to the government or to the public. First of all answer this thing. Why she should become burden to the government? What is your answer? Do you think, from social point of view, this position of woman and the fatherless children are very nice thing? No.

Woman reporter: What I'm trying to say is that... This may happen to some women. I'm talking about women who are not...

Prabhupada: Not... These are the general cases. You cannot say, "some." I see in America mostly the woman...

Woman reporter: Oh, then what you're saying is not all women should be subordinate to all men.

Prabhupada: No, man should be subordinate to the man, woman, so that the man can take charge of the woman. Then that woman is not a problem to the public.

Woman reporter: Is it true for all woman and all men?

Prabhupada: Yes, that is the nature. You take even in the dogs. The dogs they also take care of their children. The tigers, they take care of the children. So in the human society, if the woman is made pregnant and the man goes away and she is embarrassed, she has to beg from the government, that is not a very good situation.

Woman reporter: What about women who do not have children?

Prabhupada: Well, that is also another unnatural thing. Sometimes they use contraceptives. They kill children, abortion. That is also not very good. These are all sinful activities. These are sinful activities, to kill child in the womb. And take shelter of abortion. These are all sinful activities. One has to suffer for that.

Woman reporter: Is the social unrest in this country caused because...

Prabhupada: Because of these things. They do not know that.

Woman reporter: And if women were subordinate to men, it would solve all of our problems?

Prabhupada: Yes. Man wants that woman should be subordinate, faithful to him. Then he is ready to take charge. The man's mentality, woman's mentality different. So if the woman agrees to remain faithful and subordinate to man, then the family life will be peaceful.

Woman reporter: Thank you. It's late.

TV Cameraman: Any more questions?

Woman reporter: Yes. I'll ask the same questions again, do not answer.

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Nitai: She's going to ask the same questions, but none to answer. They're just going to photograph her. This is for on TV they will show her asking the questions. (break)

Woman reporter: What will you do in Philadelphia?

Prabhupada: The same thing. I have got my temple there. I stay there, and I teach people according to my philosophy.

Woman reporter: Is Philadelphia your last stop in...

Prabhupada: No, no, I travel all over United States. Then I will go to Europe. Then I will go to Africa. I have got my touring program for 4 months. (break)

Woman reporter: There's one more question I'm going to ask. Is that tea? Is that tea that you're drinking?

Prabhupada: No, we don't drink tea. We don't drink tea, don't drink liquor. We don't smoke. This is our process, no illicit sex, no meat eating, no intoxication, no gambling. Unless one is married, there is no sex. And unless one is going to beget child, there is no sex. Not for pleasure. This is our regulative principle. Woman reporter: You have different schools for men and women, is that correct?

Prabhupada: Yes. Man is regulated to become a first-class man, and woman is regulated to become very chaste and faithful wife.

Woman reporter: There is one more question.

Prabhupada: Then the life will be very successful. And marriage, compulsory. Marriage, compulsory.

Woman reporter: Everyone should marry?

Prabhupada: Yes. Every woman, at least, should be married. Therefore, according to Vedic conception, polygamy is allowed.

Woman reporter: Is allowed?

Prabhupada: Yes. Because every woman must be married. But every man may not be married. Therefore man has to accept more than one wife. Woman reporter: There is one question I have for you. You say that a woman's brain is smaller than a man's.

Prabhupada: Woman?

Nitai: Woman's brain is smaller than a man's brain.

Prabhupada: Yes, that is a fact. In the history there is no woman who is a big philosopher, a big mathematician, big scientist, big educationist. We don't find. They were all men.

Woman reporter: What about women who are leaders of countries such as your own country?

Prabhupada: Well, according to Vedic conception woman is never offered leadership. But experience has shown that woman's leadership has not been successful.

Woman reporter: Do you think Mrs. Gandhi's leadership has not been successful?

Prabhupada: Well, there is already trouble. There are many big, big men, they do not agree with her and she has taken emergency steps. So on the whole, the country is in trouble.

Woman reporter: What about Mrs. Meir, president of Israel?

Prabhupada: I do not say of any particular woman, but according to Vedic civilization, we have never seen in the history that woman has become a leader.

Woman reporter: Women have been leaders.

Prabhupada: They were not selected. The leader—formerly it was monarchy—the monarchs were selected by the advisory board of the first-class men. So they never selected any woman to become the leader of the society.

Woman reporter: What about women who are elected by the people?

Prabhupada: Well, people election... Just like you elected Nixon and then you wanted him to come down. So this kind of election has no value. Sometimes you

elect and sometimes you pull down. So what is the value of this election?

Woman reporter: So a leader should not be elected.

Prabhupada: Elected, but not by this general public. They have no intelligence. They sometimes elect a wrong man, and again they try to drag him down. So

what is the use of such election? Because that election is not sober, not mature. If the election was mature and sober, then there was no need of dragging him down again.

Woman reporter: We have talked to scientists who say that the size of the brain has nothing to do with intelligence. Do you believe that?

Prabhupada: I think that the scientists do not think like that. They keep the brain of a particular scientist to study. They keep the heart of a particular noble man. Why they try to study the heart and the brain if there is no difference?

Nitai: Sometimes they keep the brain of a great scientist to study because they think that he is so intelligent, there must be something we can learn from studying the brain. So if they are thinking like that, then there also must be a difference between a woman's brain and a man's brain.

Woman reporter: What they say is that there is difference, but it has nothing to do with the size.

Nitai: Then why do they keep great scientists' brain to study?

Woman reporter: They keep many people's brains to study.

Nitai: Especially great scientists, that they want to see what has made this man so intelligent.

Woman reporter: That's not necessarily true.

Prabhupada: Then why they study the brain? What is the purpose of studying brain unless there is difference? You study different brains. Unless you feel that there is difference between this brain and that brain, why do you study. What is the meaning of study?

Woman reporter: To find differences among men. It's not necessarily differences between men and woman.

Prabhupada: I don't say man or woman. But I say you study different brains—why? Unless you think there is some difference?

Woman reporter: There is difference.

Prabhupada: Yes. So if there is difference, then what is the harm if there is difference between man and woman's brain?

Woman reporter: They say there isn't.

Prabhupada: They say, but the fact we have to study. As soon as you study the construction of different brain, then you must know that there is difference, different activities.

Woman reporter: In other words, you do not believe this, what they say.

Prabhupada: Then why do you study different brain?

Woman reporter: I don't study them. I'm just telling you what the scientists say.

Prabhupada: So scientists, the psychologist... As I was a student of psychology and our professor, a big man, Dr. W. S. Urquhart, he said that "By studying the

brains of man and woman, we have found the highest brain substance found in man, sixty-four ounce by weight." You may deny. This is the statement of a big

psychologist. You can shake your head, but this is the scientific words by big psychologist. You can note down his name, Dr. W.S. Urquhart, professor of

psychology in the Scottish Churches College in 1918-20.

Woman reporter: Oh, dear, no wonder. 1918-1920, that means... O.K. I see now what you're thinking about. That was many, many years ago.

Prabhupada: So can you give any proof since then that the woman's... In 1920... She does not take it?

Nitai: She does not take it. Somehow they think that the brain is no longer small. If it was small, then, it is not small today.

Prabhupada: But where is the proof...

Woman reporter: You do not believe that there has been advancement of science since 1920?

Nitai: Well, if the brain has been ascertained as being half the size then why should it change by now? Should it change?

Woman reporter: Well, do you think that the Romans weren't as tall as men are today?

Nitai: No, but the... But then, within fifty years there is not going to be any change in the brain.

Woman reporter: Not in the 1900's. Why do you use the technology that you use? You didn't have cars in those days, this television. Things have changed since 1920.

Prabhupada: So what change has become? Can you give any evidence that woman is more powerful in brain than the man during these years? Can you give any evidence?

Woman reporter: No, what I'm saying is that...

Prabhupada: Now, can you give any evidence that woman has become more powerful than the man during these fifty years?

Woman reporter: Yes.

Prabhupada: What is that? Give me some tacit example.

Woman reporter: That she and I wouldn't be here if women weren't more powerful than they were fifty years ago.

Harikesa: Now they are talking louder. (laughter)

Woman reporter: Thank you. Thank you. (woman leaves)

Harikesa: The scientists have the theory that the brain, the intelligence is measured by creases in the brain, creases, not by size.

Prabhupada: Not size, but what is the proof that the brain of woman has increased? Where is the proof?

Harikesa: They think because the ego has increased, the brain has also increased.

Prabhupada: Oh, that's nice. (laughter) That's nice.(laughing) So to become angry means defeat. If two persons are in argument the man, the one party, he becomes angry, that means he is defeated. Why one should become angry? It is the argument, logic. They should continue. And to become angry and to go away, that means defeat.

"BSST - Sarasvati Thakura also said that women are on the level of jungle men, or wild people, meaning aborigines. He warned that though their words may be sweet, their hearts are very hard. Sarasvati Thakura many times warned against association with women. In Caitanya Bhagavata he gave a ten page purport on big sized pages, about the dangers of associating with those who are attached to women. This was the purport to the Bengali verse, "muni gana dustha sanga kori nanandan(?)". In this long purport Sarasvati Thakura gives so many quotes from scriptures warning about the dangers of associating with women."

Brahmananda: Pet.

Prabhupada: Pet, like that. Dhol gunar sudra pasu and nari. Nari means woman. (laughs) Just see. He has classified the nari amongst these class, dhol, gunar, sudra, pasu, nari. Ihe sab sasan ke adhikari. Sasan ke adhikari means all these are subjected for punishment. And what about the guest?

Govinda dasi: Oh, the guest? It's coming.

Prabhupada: So sasan ke adhikari means they should be punished. (laughs) Punished means, just like dhol, when the, I mean to say, sound is not very hard, dag-dag, if you beat it on the border, then it comes to be nice tune. Similarly, pasu, animals, if you request "My dear dog, please do not go there." Hut! (laughter) "No, my dear dog. Hut!" This is the way.(?) Similarly, woman. If you become lenient, then she will be troublesome. So in India still, in villages, whenever there is some quarrel between husband wife, the husband beats and she is tamed. (laughs) In civilized society, "Oh, you have done this??" Immediately some criminal case. But in uncivilized society they don't care for court or civilized way of...

Room Conversation—April 12, 1969, New York

Satsvarupa: Srila Prabhupada, is this school for women also, or just for men?

Prabhupada: For men. Women should automatically learn how to cook, how to cleanse home.

Satsvarupa: So they don't attend varnasrama college.

Prabhupada: No, no. Varnasrama college especially meant for the brahmana, ksatriya and vaisya. Those who are not fit for education, they are sudras. That's all. Or those who are reluctant to take education, sudra means. That's all. They should assist the higher class. (Morning Walk: March 14, 1974, Vrindavan)

Women must have protection, because they cannot do anything independently. To give them independence means to create some trouble. In the Manu-samhita it is clearly said: na stri svatantryam arhati. Woman cannot be given independence. No. They must be protected. . . . (Lecture: S-B, May 19, 1972, Los Angeles)

Srila Prabhupada on Divorce Q. In your ISKCON society, do you allow for divorce?

Srila Prabhupada: There is no question of separation. There is no question of divorce. (Lecture: SB, 1975)

We don't allow divorce; once they're married, there is no separation. (Interview: NY Times, New Vrindavan, 9-2-72)

Q. But isn't it necessary to have divorce as a legal option?

Srila Prabhupada: The divorce act is encouraging prostitution, and this should be abolished. (SB 1.17.38) In Vedic civilization the husband and wife were not separated by such man-made laws as divorce. We should understand the necessity for maintaining family life in human society and should thus abolish this artificial law known as divorce. (SB 4.23.5)...there is no such thing as divorce in the Vedic literature. A wife is always trained to be chaste and faithful to her husband, for this helps her achieve deliverance from any abominable material condition SB 9.20.22)

Q. What if a woman simply cannot tolerate her husband any longer?

Srila Prabhupada: Generally, separation between husband and wife is due to womanly behavior; divorce takes place due to womanly weakness. The best course for a woman is to abide by the orders of her husband. That makes family life very peaceful. Sometimes there may be misunderstandings between husband and wife...but a wife should not leave her husband's protection because of such misunderstanding. If she does so, it is understood to be due to her womanly weakness. (SB 4.4.3)

What is this nonsense, divorce? There is no such thing in the Vedic civilization, divorce. You must accept whatever God has given you as husband or wife, you must. They had no thinking even, idea of divorce. One may not agree with the husband. That is natural. Sometimes we do not agree. But there is no question of divorce. (Room Conversation, Baltimore, 7-7-76)

Q. Isn't it unreasonable to expect a woman to remain enslaved in a dysfunctional marriage?

Srila Prabhupada: In the modern day, the wife is never submissive, and therefore homelife is broken even by slight incidents. Either the wife or the husband may take advantage of the divorce laws. According to the Vedic law, however, there is no such thing as divorce laws, and a woman must be trained to be submissive to the will of her husband. Westerners contend that this is a slave mentality for the wife, but actually it is not; it is the tactic by which a woman can conquer the heart of her husband, however irritable or cruel he may be. (SB 9.3.10)

Krsna explained the duty of a woman. He also stressed the point of serving the husband: "Even if he is not of very good character, or even if he is not very rich or fortunate, or even if he is old or invalid on account of continued diseases, whatever the husband's condition, a woman should not divorce her husband if she actually desires to be elevated to the higher planetary systems after leaving this body." (Krsna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Ch. 29)

And the girl agrees to serve the boy for life. There is no question of divorce. (Lecture, SB, 1973)

Q. But what if two people simply aren't compatible?

Srila Prabhupada: In Krsna consciousness marriages there is no question of any separation or divorce. Any disagreement between husband and wife is not taken seriously, as much as disagreement between children is not taken very seriously.(Letter)

So one should tolerate these things. If there is some misunderstanding they should not go to the court for divorce. They should tolerate. These are some of the rules for spiritual advancement. (Lecture, Bg, 1966)

And therefore in the human society there is marriage. Not in the animal society. Married means that one should be satisfied with one woman and one man. That's all. And there is no question of divorce. Divorce is introduced by the modern rascals, but it is not sanctioned by any religious person. You see? (Lecture, Initiation/Wedding, 1971)

...combined together for life. There was no question of divorce. There was no question of divorce. Even if they fight. Fight there must be....Therefore Canakya Pandita says, dam pate kalahe caiva bambharambe laghu kriya. Whenever there is fight between husband and wife it should be neglected. (Lecture, SB 1968)

In Krsna consciousness marriages there is no question of any separation or divorce. Any disagreement between husband and wife is not taken seriously, as much as disagreement between children is not taken very seriously. (Letter)

Q. But what if a couple simply no longer love each other?

Srila Prabhupada: That is also animalism. Just like a dog having sex intercourse with another female dog, and another, another, another. It is another animalism. (Conversation) So this marriage is not for sense gratification. We should always remember. It is helping one another. The husband will help the wife, the wife will help the husband so that both of them become advanced in Krsna consciousness and make their human life perfect. So there is no question of divorce. There is no question of separation. Because divorce, separation, these are meant for sense gratification. (Lecture, Initiation/Wedding, 1969)

So our, this new bride and bridegroom should always remember that in any condition of life they should remain together. And that will be possible if they concentrate their ideas to Krsna consciousness....You should always remember that this marriage has no separation, no divorce. Lifetime. (Lecture, Initiation/Wedding, 1969)

This Krsna conscious marriage does not mean sense gratification. Once married, there is no question of divorce or separation. That you should remember. We don't allow any divorce and separation. (Lecture, Initiation/Wedding, 1972)

...the present bride and bridegroom must know it certainly that this marriage is not for sense gratification. This marriage is for purification of life. So there is no question of divorce. There is no question of separation. So don't get into married life if you have got such propensity. (Lecture, Initiation/Wedding, 1968)

Q. It seems that at least in some circumstances divorce must be permitted.

Srila Prabhupada: There is no question of divorce or separation. In any condition of life, happiness or distress, you shall continue as husband and wife because our main business is Krsna consciousness....It is not for sense gratification. So in this way there is no question of separation or divorce. (Lecture, Initiation/Wedding, Boston, 1968)

There is no question of. We do not know what is divorce. In our country there is no divorce, at least in Hindu law. Yes. Wife and husband, once combined that is for life. There is no question of separation, in all circumstances. Either in distress or in happiness, there is no question of separation. (Lecture, 1969)

Still India...95% people living, husband and wife, very peacefully. And in the Western countries, after six months' marriage, divorce. Are they not fourth class? Even the husband and wife cannot continue peaceful life, what to speak of others. Now this rascal Jawaharal Nehru has introduced divorce in the Hindu society. Otherwise, in the Hindu society separation between husband and wife is not even dreamt of. That, it cannot be. However there may be quarrelsome, but there is no question of separation. Husband and wife, they fight everywhere. I have seen. My father and mother was fighting. I fought. (laughter) But there is no question of separation. Separation, they never think. Neither the husband can think of, nor the wife can think of. (Conversation, Perth, 5-19-75)

Q. But in cases where the husband and wife fight, surely we should allow for divorce.

Srila Prabhupada: They may fight. The husband and wife fighting, that is not unusual. Therefore, Canakya Pandit says, "Fight between husband, wife, never take it seriously. Dam pate kalahe caiva bambharambe lagu kriya. They'll make all arambha but it is not very important. Don't take [seriously]. Next moment they will again live peacefully. So according to Indian culture there is no divorce. There is no question of divorce. (Morning Walk, Nairobi, 11-2-75)

In India there is no question of divorce. So nobody takes very serious care when there is fight between husband and wife. So there also: "I'm going to immediately leave you, going to kill you..." and so many things. But after an hour everything is finished. No more quarrel. Dam pate kalahe caiva prabhate megha dumbune...(Lecture SB, 1973)

Canakya Pandita said: bambharambe laghu kriya. The husband and wife may fight. It becomes a very serious thing, but don't take of it as serious. This is Hindu philosophy. Husband and wife quarrel should not be taken as very serious. They fight and again they live peacefully. Why this divorce? Divorce means it kills the whole family life. The children goes away; the father goes away; the mother goes away. I have seen so many cases. (Conversation, Perth, 5-14-75)

Equal Rights for Women = Demoniac

Equal rights is nonsense. (Morning Walk: Rome, 5/29/74)

It will be failure. (Arrival Lecture: Philadelphia, 7/11/75)

Equal rights is claimed by rascal Westerners. (Morning Walk: Ahmedabad, 9/25/75)

By equal rights women are killing their own child. (Letter: Ed Gilbert, Vrindavan, 9/9/75)

I am not trying for equal rights. (Television Interview: Chicago, 7/9/75)

Rascals give equal rights. (Morning Walk: Los Angeles, 6/27/75)

If you want equal rights then stop giving birth to a child. (Morning Walk: Perth, 5/75)

Why you are accepting this nonsense philosophy? (Morning Walk: Rome, 5/29/74)

The equal rights movement is a means by which men cheat the women. (SSR, 1)

This equal rights philosophy is very appealing [to] fools and rascal. (Morning Walk: Rome, 5/29/74)

Equal rights is not allowed in the Vedic sastra. (Bg. 16.7: Hawaii, 2/3/75)

Regardless of attempts for equality, unequality there must remain. (Morning Walk: Rome, 5/29/74)

Equal rights is not Vedic idea. (SB 1.8.51: Los Angeles, 5/13/73)

It is not possible—it is not possible. (Morning Walk: Rome, 5/29/74)

Where is the benefit of equal rights? (Room Conversation after Press Conference: Chicago, 7/9/75)

Equal rights will not help the human society. (Conversation [regarding the philosophies of B.F. Skinner & Henry David Thoreau])

How she can be happy? That is not possible. (Bg. Lecture: Ahmedabad, 12/8/72)

Equal rights is very grave problems. (SB 1.16.7: Los Angeles, 1/4/74)

You cannot make equality. (Morning Walk: Rome, 5/29/74)

That is not Vedic civilization. (SB 7.9.24: Mayapur, 3/2/76)

Do not artificially try to become equal with men. (Bg. 16.7: Hawaii, 2/3/75)

There cannot be equality, Sir. You are talking nonsense. (Morning Walk: Rome, 5/29/74)

Equal rights is an artificial introduction to human society. (Conversation [regarding a theory of Bertrand Russell])

Equal rights is rascaldom philosophy. (Morning Walk: Rome, 5/29/74)

It is already failure.(Arrival Lecture: Philadelphia, 7/11/75)

Equal rights is impossible (Cc. Adi. 17.44)

Western civilization is a rascal civilization. I do not take they are civilized even. No. White aborigines. That's all. (Morning Walk: January 24, 1977, Bhubaneswar)

"So this dasi-pati, this is also significant word, "the prostitute's husband." Prostitute means... They are, in Sanskrit, called pumscali. Pumscali means they are moved by other men, umsacli. There are three kinds of women: [sairini,] sairindhri, pumscali...In this way there are divisions. So some women, they are very easily carried by men. So that is not very good. Therefore I am instructing our GBCs that "Let our little girls be educated to become faithful and chaste." That is their qualification. No education required. And the boys should be trained up to become first-class men, samo damas titiksa, like that. And literary, Sanskrit and English, that will make them perfect. If the husband is first class and the wife is chaste and faithful, then the home is heaven." (Lecture: SB 6.1.31; San Francisco, July 16, 1975)

"I am also in receipt of your letters dated October 20 & 21, 1975. I note that your wife and Visalaini both gave birth to baby girls. That is the defect. I want male children but you have no stamina for it. I expected from Visalaini by her belly that it would be a boy. Anyway, never mind. The name Brijlata is nice. Why do the majority of my married disciples give birth to girls?" (Letter to: Dhananjaya: Bombay 9 November, 1975)

Prabhupada said: Himavati, would you like to go to India and learn to carry this waterpot like the Indian women?

Speaking with Kausalya and Srimati, Prabhupada praised them for having arranged the Jaipur pandal program.

"You girls are carrying on Lord Caitanya's movement so nicely," he said. "Just see! Even without husbands, you go on preaching." He said that the Western women were different from Indian women, who simply stayed at home. Then Prabhupada discovered that his two women disciples had not actually done a thorough job. Although the pandal program was to begin in two days, no one had arranged for the large tent to be erected. Prabhupada said it was not a woman's nature to do such organizational work. The women became morose to hear him. Then they showed him the flyer they had printed advertising the festival, Prabhupada became angry.

"It is not standard," he said. It did not say "International Society for Krishna Consciousness," but only "A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami and his foreign disciples."

"What is this!" Prabhupada shouted.

"What, Srila Prabhupada?" Kausalya asked.

"Foreign! Why do you say foreign? It must be "American' and "European'. That is what is attractive, that they are American and European. But you are just a woman. What can I expect?" The two women began to cry and left the room. -Srila Prabhupada Lilamrta 38: No One Listens to a Poor Man

Another example is that in distributing prasada, it is "first offered to the brahmanas, then to the children and old men, then to the women, and then to animals like dogs and other domestic animals." Srimad-Bhagavatam 7.14.18

Kulapavana · May 28, 2004

we should pay attention to ALL OTHER injunctions of the Aryan culture as well, starting with qualifications WE OURSELVES must develop. in general, if you develop good qualities yourself, you will not have to worry about bad qualities of others affecting you.

for the sake of balance, why dont you make a thread about the responsibilities of men in Vedic society?

krsna · May 28, 2004

Dear Prabhu,I have no good qualifications ;

OK

I should pay attention to ALL OTHER injunctions of the Aryan culture as well, starting with qualifications I MYSELF must develop. in general, if I develop good qualities myself, I will not have to worry about bad qualities of others affecting me.

Women's Liberation

Back to Godhead Vol. 14 No. 2/3

This exchange between His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada and a woman reporter took place at Chicago's Krsna center during the summer of 1975.

Reporter:What advice do you have for women who do not want to be subordinate to men?

Srila Prabhupada: It is not my advice but the advice of the Vedic literatures- that a woman should be chaste and faithful to her husband.

Reporter: What should we do in the United States? We're trying to make women equal with men.

Srila Prabhupada: You will never be equal with men, because in so many respects your functions are different. Why do you say artificially they're equal with man's? The wife has to become pregnant, not the husband. How can you change this? Both the husband and wife will become pregnant - is it possible?

Reporter: (No reply.)

Srila Prabhupada: Is it possible?

Reporter: No. It is not.

Srila Prabhupada: Then by nature, one has to function differently from the other.

Reporter: Why does this mean that women have to be subordinate - just because they bear children and men can't?

Srila Prabhupada: By nature, as soon as you get children you require support from your husband. Otherwise, you are in difficulty.

Reporter: Many women with children have no support from their husband. They have no -

Srila Prabhupada: Then they have to take support from others. You cannot deny that. The government is giving them support. Today the government is embarrassed. If the husband supported the wife and children, the government would be relieved of so much welfare expenditure. So that is a problem.

Reporter: What happens when women support men?

Srila Prabhupàda: First of all, try to understand that you are dependent.

After a man and woman unite, there are children. And if the man goes away, you are embarrassed - the woman is embarrassed. Why? The poor woman is embarrassed with the child-she has to beg from the government. So do you think it is a very nice thing? The Vedic idea is that a woman should be married to a man, and the man should take care of that wornan and the children - independently - so that they do not become a burden to the government or to the public.

Reporter: Do you think that the social unrest-

Srila Prabhupada: I am thinking like this. You give me the answer! Simply you go on questioning. I will question you - Do you think this burden to the government and the public is good?

Reporter: I don't understand what you're saying.

Srila Prabhupada: Every year the government has to pay out millions of dollars in aid to dependent children. Do you think that this burden caused when the husband goes away from the wife - this burden to the government and the people is good?

Reporter: No.

Srila Prabhupada: That has happened - because the woman does not agree to be subordinate. She wants "equal freedom."

Reporter: And if women were subordinate to men, I suppose that would solve all of our problems?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. The husband wants that his wife should be subordinate - faithful to him. Then he's ready to take charge. Man's mentality and - woman's mentality are different. So, if the woman agrees to remain faithful and subordinate to the man, then family life will be peaceful. Otherwise the husband goes away, and the woman is embarrassed with the children, and it becomes a burden to the governrnent and the people in general.

Reporter: Is there anything wrong when the woman works?

Srila Prabhupada: There are so many things wrong, but the first thing is - Why should some man's wife and child become a burden to the governrnent or the public? First of all answer this. Why should she become a burden?

Reporter: [No reply.]

Srila Prabhupada: What is your answer?

Reporter: Well, men are burdens to the government, too.

Srila Prabhupada: Do you think, from the social point of view, that this situation of women and fatherless children is a very nice thing?

Reporter: What I'm trying to say is that ... this may happen to some women ... I'm talking about women who are not -

Srila Prabhupada: This is the general pattern. You cannot say "some." In America I see they are mostly women.... The woman should be subordinate to the man, so that the man can take charge of the woman. Then the woman is not a problem for the public.

Reporter: Is this true for all women and all men?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. That is the law of nature. You take even the dogs - they also take care of their children. The tigers - they take care of their children. So in the human society, if the woman is made pregnant and the man goes away, then she is embarrassed-she has to beg from the governrnent.

That is not a very good situation.

Reporter: What about women who do not have children?

Srila Prabhupada: Well, that is another unnatural thing. Sometimes they use contraceptives, or they kill their children - abortion. That is also not very good. These are all sinful activities.

Reporter: Excuse me?

Srila Prabhupida: These are sinful activities - killing the child in the womb and taking shelter of abortion. These are all sinful activities. One has to suffer for them.

Reporter: Is the social unrest in this country caused because -

Srila Prabhupada: Because of these things. They do not know that............