ancient_paztriot Posted June 3, 2004 Report Share Posted June 3, 2004 SB 1.8.46 King Yudhisthira, who was much aggrieved, could not be convinced, despite instructions by great sages headed by Vyasa and the Lord Krsëa Himself, the performer of superhuman feats, and despite all historical evidence. PURPORT The pious King Yudhisthira was mortified because of the mass massacre of human beings in the Battle of Kuruksetra, especially on his account. Duryodhana was there on the throne, and he was doing well in his administration, and in one sense there was no need of fighting. But on the principle of justice Yudhisthira was to replace him. The whole clique of politics centered around this point, and all the kings and residents of the whole world became involved in this fight between the rival brothers. Lord Krsna was also there on the side of King Yudhisthira. It is said in the Mahabharata, adi-parva (20) that 640,000,000 men were killed in the eighteen days of the Battle of Kuruksetra, and some hundreds of thousands were missing. Practically this was the greatest battle in the world within five thousand years. This mass killing simply to enthrone Maharaja Yudhisthira was too mortifying, so he tried to be convinced with evidences from histories by great sages like Vyasa and the Lord Himself that the fight was just because the cause was just. But Maharaja Yudhisthira would not be satisfied, even though he was instructed by the greatest personalities of the time. Krsna is designated herein as the performer of superhuman actions, but in this particular instance neither He nor Vyasa could convince King Yudhisthira. Does it mean that He failed to be a superhuman actor? No, certainly not. The interpretation is that the Lord as Isvara, or the Supersoul in the hearts of both King Yudhisthira and Vyasa, performed still more superhuman action because the Lord desired it. As Supersoul of King Yudhisthira, He did not allow the King to be convinced by the words of Vyasa and others, including Himself, because He desired that the King hear instructions from the dying Bhismadeva, who was another great devotee of the Lord. The Lord wanted that at the last stage of his material existence the great warrior Bhismadeva see Him personally and see his beloved grandchildren, King Yudhisthira, etc., now situated on the throne, and thus pass away very peacefully. Bhismadeva was not at all satisfied to fight against the Pandavas, who were his beloved fatherless grandchildren. But the ksatriyas are also very stern people, and therefore he was obliged to take the side of Duryodhana because he was maintained at the expense of Duryodhana. Besides this, the Lord also desired that King Yudhisthira be pacified by the words of Bhismadeva so that the world could see that Bhismadeva excelled all in knowledge, including the Lord Himself. ............................... Very interesting… As Supersoul of King Yudhisthira, He did not allow the King to be convinced by the words of Vyasa and others, including Himself, because He desired that the King hear instructions from the dying Bhismadeva, who was another great devotee of the Lord. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kulapavana Posted June 3, 2004 Report Share Posted June 3, 2004 I have seen different numbers based on the different estimation of the size of an akshauhini (an army of troops in Vedic times), but all these estimates arrive at the number of dead in the millions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ancient_paztriot Posted June 3, 2004 Author Report Share Posted June 3, 2004 I was trying to imagine what this number above would be in terms of geographical numbers. It would be half the world, wouldn't it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kulapavana Posted June 3, 2004 Report Share Posted June 3, 2004 the Yavanas (western tribes) as well as Kiratas (oriental tribes) and the northern tribes all supplied their armies for this battle. after Kurukshetra, the Aryan civilization collapsed completely /images/graemlins/frown.gif ...such was Krishna's desire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted June 3, 2004 Report Share Posted June 3, 2004 But it would be about 1/10th though. Some wonder where are the massive amount of artifacts,the armour and other fighting implements etc. that should be left over? The dead elephant bones alone would be massive let alone the horses and humans. Did anyone every find them? I haven't heard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ancient_paztriot Posted June 3, 2004 Author Report Share Posted June 3, 2004 I don't know. I accept your answer of 1/10th. Me thinks the 3rd World War will be a much bigger death toll given the weapons and the demons who command them. I mean America has been shown to entertain a policy of destroying everyone just so no one emerges from the war stronger than them. Almost nothing is known to be 5,000 old… except the pyramids? But what a thought! Has anyone bothered to go digging around Kurukshetra? You don't really expect to find a thing where there's a recycling program. Maybe alot of that evidence is constituted in different bodies now… or buildings… or whatever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted June 3, 2004 Report Share Posted June 3, 2004 I remain skeptical myself. But then I tend not to take some things as literally as other do. That's OK though as far as I am concerned. I mean the numbers in these stories just seem to be too fantastic for me to accept literally. Ugrasena is said to have had six billion bodyguards in Mathura. That is the estimated population of the world presently. And that was just the bodyguards. Sorry Mathura is just not that big. Now add the 640 million who died on the battfield of Kuruksetra. Now add on their families members who didn't fight and were left behind. And those that served them and the rest of the society that surrounds them, the vaisyas and brahmins who didn't fight. Lot's of folks around them parts. The infastructure must have been something. I wonder if all of India was that densely populated? The rest of the world? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ancient_paztriot Posted June 3, 2004 Author Report Share Posted June 3, 2004 Six billion figure? Leaves me wondering what I know. Can you post that reference? Well what do you accept? What to reject? I think the figure for available material bodies is way over the scientific estimate too. If it's not in scripture, it is certainly suspect to heresay. Everyone knows people will distort stories in passing them on. Then too I think I understand that the Earth is shrinking… water is claiming more land in Kali-yuga. What the Earth was then I can't really know in my circumstance. I know the process for understanding these things is not empirical because it is not subject to our experimentation. Most quantifyable things we will never know. I can't imagine the descriptions of astras at the Kurukshetra war either, or a person with 1,000 arms. I'm just an animal to higher beings. Even knowing these things but still not changing my heart leaves me an animal. So I don't put much importance in that kind of knowledge. But it will eat away at you if you let it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kulapavana Posted June 3, 2004 Report Share Posted June 3, 2004 some numbers in the Vedas are definitely allegorical. just like we say: there were tons of prasadam at the feast! that is why we say: the flowery language of the Vedas... but in case of Kurukshetra the numbers had to be very high because this war finished the Aryan civilization, and that is a fact. as to the bones and other stuff left on the surface: bones must be deeply covered by fine sediment to fossilize. otherwise they turn to dust in less than a decade. ivory lasts longer but I'm sure the human scavengers took it away, along with any other usables. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted June 3, 2004 Report Share Posted June 3, 2004 I can't remember exactly where i read it in Krsna book. Vedabase in incomplete. There is a conversation where some of Srila Prabhupada's disciples asked him about this six billion figure. A very awkward exchange ensued. I don't think anyone was satisified with that discussion. But for now I did pull this up. How many billions in a quadrillion? Çréla Çukadeva Gosvämé informed Mahäräja Parékñit that he had heard from reliable sources that simply to teach the children of the Yadu dynasty there were as many as 38,800,000 tutors, or äcäryas. If so many teachers were needed to educate their children, one can simply imagine how vast was the number of family members. As for their military strength, it is said that King Ugrasena alone had ten quadrillion soldiers as personal bodyguards. From Krsna Book description of Lord Krsna's Pastimes. Also the number of His family of sons grandsons etc. was said to exceed one billion. Like the kuruksetra figures I don't worry about this numbers or take them seriously. but if someone does hang their faith on them it will become troublesome. Like people that hang their faith on finding Noah's Ark. So for me, it follows that if these numbers are greatly exaggerated then why not also the battlefield numbers? None of this changes anything for me. I still need to realize myself as spiritsoul. The point of an individual personal God still stands as does my need to surrender to Him. he Bhagavatam is still, BY FAR, the greatest source of wisdom that I have found. There is no close second. So we should be able to continue to discuss these things with a cool head and no shaken faith. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted June 3, 2004 Report Share Posted June 3, 2004 a quadrillion is in the American system is 1 followed by 15 zeros. 1,000,000,000,000,000 So what is that? A thousand billion =1 quadrillion? So I hear it as Ugrasena had a whole lot of body guards and let it go at that. I would NEVER try to make someone believe in a literal number under the flag of it being Vedic knowledge and therefore unquestionable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kulapavana Posted June 3, 2004 Report Share Posted June 3, 2004 also, certain terms or words have different meaning now than they had 5000 years ago. the language changes with time, even sanskrit. what is the sanskrit word for computer? the same goes for the other direction - certain ancient Vedic weapons were described with words that are now identified as "spear" or "arrow" but their original meaning was certainly different (just look at the descriptions of these weapons). and sometimes the original Vedic piece of literature was written down many centuries after it has been composed, passing through time in the oral tradition, while the language changed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ancient_paztriot Posted June 3, 2004 Author Report Share Posted June 3, 2004 Just my position I'm comfortable with: I can easily understand why the scriptures will describe this or that queen as the most beautiful and then the same again for someone else. Same examples with men as well as other opulences. But when scriptures give exact numbers… well they're exact; mathematical. I can't imagine why they would be different. I think taking them more or less might be interpretation. I could be wrong. That's just how I see it. But then the whole numbers thing is a sidebar to the story. It doesn't make any real difference unless it gets in your way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 3, 2004 Report Share Posted June 3, 2004 srila prabhupada took the numbers in scriptures literally and preachs accordingly i cannot even think that prabhupada is wrong, especially in a subject like that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted June 4, 2004 Report Share Posted June 4, 2004 its up to you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ancient_paztriot Posted June 4, 2004 Author Report Share Posted June 4, 2004 The different positions and faiths… we have to jump. The only difference is where you jump. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jahnava Nitai Das Posted June 4, 2004 Report Share Posted June 4, 2004 Two points to consider, in India dead bodies are cremated. After the war the dead soldiers were all cremated (there is a full chapter in the Mahabharata on this), likely the dead animals as well, otherwise you would have plagues spreading. Regarding the weapons and instruments of battle, if we believe the scriptures they were all made mostly of gold. Its not something people would leave here and there on the ground after the battle. People would come to collect the gold remnants. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted June 4, 2004 Report Share Posted June 4, 2004 I think we should jump in this direction. TRANSLATION SB 12.3.14 Sukadeva Gosvämi said: O mighty Pariksit, I have related to you the narrations of all these great kings, who spread their fame throughout the world and then departed. My real purpose was to teach transcendental knowledge and renunciation. Stories of kings lend power and opulence to these narrations but do not in themselves constitute the ultimate aspect of knowledge. We have all seen devotees go away claiming they can't believe in this or the other thing. I think that is very unfortunate because those issues were never really the point in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted June 4, 2004 Report Share Posted June 4, 2004 those are valuable points. But when we consider those numbers of people it brings up questions of where and how the supporting infrastructures could have been maintained? But the danger of mental speculation always looms. Looking for hidden meanings and such will only lead to misconceptions. Like the ever present "it was the unborn within Krsna that we need to worship and not the form that was apparent before Arjuna." This approach speculates away the actual goal of life which is Krsna Himself. But when I read about some of the numbers and descriptions I just casn't take them literally. Nor do I feel one has to. Like the Yavanas attacking Dhruva Maharaja from the sky with showers of stool, urine, pus and mucous. I just let that go by as Sukadeva making the story more interesting. Or the decriptions of shooting hundreds of arrows at once just says to me that the person was fighting in a ferious and devastating way and with great skill. I just don't want anyone to think i am trying to find hidden meanings in a work where the Absolute Truth is presented so straightforwardly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ancient_paztriot Posted June 4, 2004 Author Report Share Posted June 4, 2004 My perspective right now is that we are all gamblers. We play the hand we're dealt. We may bluff, but even in selecting our safer bets we display our faith. We may not know if the traded cards are what we want, but we bet on these numbers and not those. But why? What particular combination of the five factors of action are taking place at any particular moment? Nothing is entirely certain but 'death' in a world where everything has it's contradiction. And that's the thing we ignore to the end. By the way, I agree with your stated sentiment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinash Posted June 4, 2004 Report Share Posted June 4, 2004 a quadrillion is in the American system is 1 followed by 15 zeros. 1,000,000,000,000,000 So what is that? A thousand billion =1 quadrillion? No. A million billion = 1 quadrillion We can also say A thousand trillion =1 quadrillion as A thousand billion =1 trillion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted June 4, 2004 Report Share Posted June 4, 2004 A million billions. Ten of them. Now that is a lot of bodyguards. Obviously not meant to be taken literally. One could ask if that was the American or English system that was used But I guess there is no ppint. The English is 24 zeros instead of 15. Why the difference? I have no idea. Thanks Avinash. Talking about big things, I saw this show NOVA the other night and they were discussing these gigantic gamma ray blasts from the farthest none points of the universe. Couldn't really keep up with their theories but it sure made me feel small. Which is ok because I am. Thought of you as I was watching. Does NOVA play in INDIA? check this out: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/gamma/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ancient_paztriot Posted June 4, 2004 Author Report Share Posted June 4, 2004 "Obviously not meant to be taken literally" Well, you say so because you can't believe it. But the normal way of using numbers is to indicate something literal. So I don't think it's so obvious after all. Maybe something got lost in translation through the ages. Maybe not. This is for sure: You can always upsurp anything with ordinary skepticism; "I just don't believe it." And people naturally accept their own beliefs as facts. Appears to be another situation where we just don't have enough information to make a logical deduction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted June 4, 2004 Report Share Posted June 4, 2004 This one is easy. Do you really think they could have possibly been ten million billion people guarding the body of King Ugrasena? Remember India now has about 1 billion people. The entire Earth has about six billion. To each his own I guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinash Posted June 4, 2004 Report Share Posted June 4, 2004 As far I know, NOVA does not play in India. Studying about how big our universe is really helps us in keeping our ego level down. It is also highly interesting. Thought of you as I was watching. WOW. Thanks. /images/graemlins/smile.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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