ATOM - Paramanu OR Anu?

[ancient_paztriot]

Sorry, just using you to reply.

 

Of coarse, there is the description of time beginning with how long it takes for an electron to circle an atom. So the Vedas are not ignorant about electrons either.

 

Nor is it likely the person who engineered all this matter doesn't know about the periodic elements and so on. The vedas are not trying to give a spiritual science by providing people with enough material rope to hang themself.

 

People fight over the definitions when the fact that the idea and the atom word is even in the Vedas should be enough.

[Avinash]

Of coarse, there is the description of time beginning with how long it takes for an electron to circle an atom.

 

It is interesting. Please tell me where it is written in Vedas.

[Guest guest]

Gentlemen, Literally "Not cuttable"

 

Well an atom is cuttable=atomic energy. So if it is not cutable then it must be smaller, i.e., a sub atomic particle.

 

In Sanskrit the word Paramanu is sometimes called an atom and Anu is always called an atom. But in context of SB sloka 6/11/1 it is defined as undivided particle - paramanu - sub-atomic particle.

 

According to SB, two paramanus make an ANU so that would be the complete atom - or a combination of two sub-atomic particles.

 

We can't use the English dictionary to determine Sanskrit words. If SB defines paramanu as a sub-atomic particle, that cannot be divided, then it must be "sub-atomic".

 

The question is word deffinition. Paramanu AND Anu do not mean the same thing... atom (anu) is two paramanu (sub-atomic particle); anu (atom) CAN be split / paramanu (sub-atomic particle) cannot be split, it is - Literally "Not cuttable"

[gHari]

Science made its guess way back naming a unit the uncuttable ATOM. Later they discovered they were wrong, but saving face (?) they didn't bother renaming it. It is science that is wrong, not the SB translation. The word atom is clearly from two words (A=not and TOM=cuttable).

 

The paramanu is likely a basic energy which can take on various kinds of material qualities under varying circumstances, thus behaving like electrons, mu mesons or protons, etc. E = MC2 and all that jazz.

 

[Guest guest]

Hey Gary,

 

Your site: Seeking the Kingdom of God - is really loaded with info.

 

Jaya!!!

 

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

 

Well an atom is cuttable=atomic energy. So if it is not cutable then it must be smaller, i.e., a sub atomic particle.

 

 

You still don't understand the meaning of the word atom. I won't waste any more time trying to teach you English. The word atom in general usage refers to an irreducible particle of matter that cannot be broken down further. The atom in chemistry is not an atom of general english usage.

 

You can't seem to understand the difference between the two, nor can you catch Prabhupada's English usage (where he isn't refering to the atom of chemistry).

 

 

We can't use the English dictionary to determine Sanskrit words. If SB defines paramanu as a sub-atomic particle, that cannot be divided, then it must be "sub-atomic".

 

 

Read through your statement and try to realize how stupid it is.

 

1) First we are speaking of the English word atom and what it means. That has nothing to do with sanskrit. You can't figure out the definition of English words and you want to move on to sanksrit words?

 

2) Where does Srimad Bhagavatam define paramanu as the english word "sub-atomic particle"? It doesn't. It is all interpretation when translating sanskrit to English. The bhagavatam simply draws a connection between anu ("small") and paramanu ("supremely small").

 

3) Without understanding the English definition of the word atom, there is no point trying to determine whether "atom" more properly refers to the "anu" or "paramanu".

 

If you don't want to bring the english dictionary into the discussion, then speak in sanskrit.

[Guest guest]

English Translations

 

Verse 1: (The great sage) Maitreya said: "The smallest particle of material substance, which has not yet combined with any other similar particles, is called paramanu (a sub-atomic particle of matter).   Paramanus always exist both in the dormant and manifest states of material existence. It is the combination of more than one paramanu (sub-atomic particle) which gives rise to the illusory concept of a (material) unit. "

 

Verse 5: A combination of two paramanus constitutes an anu (atom); and three anus (atoms) makes one trasarenu.  Trasarenus are visable [to the naked eye] when seen floating upward in the air while viewed through rays of sunlight which enter a room through a latticed window.

 

[gHari]

Srimad Bhagavatam 3.11.1:<BLOCKQUOTE><CENTER><font color="RED">maitreya uvAca

caramaH sad-vizeSANAm

aneko 'saMyutaH sadA

paramANuH sa vijJeyo

nRNAm aikya-bhramo yataH

</center>

maitreyaH uvAca--Maitreya said; caramaH--ultimate; sat--effect; vizeSANAm--symptoms; anekaH--innumerable; asaMyutaH--unmixed; sadA--always; parama-aNuH--atoms; saH--that; vijJeyaH--should be understood; nRNAm--of men; aikya--oneness; bhramaH--mistaken; yataH--from which.

</font>

The material manifestation's ultimate particle, which is indivisible and not formed into a body, is called the atom. It exists always as an invisible identity, even after the dissolution of all forms. The material body is but a combination of such atoms, but it is misunderstood by the common man.

<BLOCKQUOTE>PURPORT

The atomic description of the SrImad-BhAgavatam is almost the same as the modern science of atomism, and this is further described in the ParamANu-vAda of KaNAda. In modern science also, the atom is accepted as the ultimate indivisible particle of which the universe is composed. SrImad-BhAgavatam is the full text of all descriptions of knowledge, including the theory of atomism. The atom is the minute subtle form of eternal time.</BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>

My mind is too conditioned to the scientific "atom". I will have to use the sanskrit words anu and paramanu from now on. I am seeing Krsna's eternal effulgence in its subtle form as the basic brahman paramanu building blocks of maya, although I too am quite content not to know.

 

 

[gHari]

In the Canto 3.11.4 purport, Srila Prabhupada writes:<blockquote>All the planets rotate and cover space, and space is calculated in terms of atoms. </blockquote>

Here we get the idea that paramanu may not necessarily manifest as a scientific atom of matter, since 'empty' space in a planet's orbit is also composed of paramanu. Space seems to be a property of the paramanu.

 

[ancient_paztriot]

Not only is the Vedas right about the atom, but Prabhupada gave the famous example of cow dung being pure.

 

The descriptions of the body and it's workings, reproduction, field of activities, everything…

 

We accept evidence as proof? Well there's a whole lot of evidence in the Vedic literature. Of coarse, if someone has a pre-disposition and can't get past his own conditioning, then he can't learn the secrets.

 

Some devotee oughta do a book on Vedic proof.

[gHari]

<blockquote><center>Brahma Samhita 5.35

eko 'py asau racayituM jagad-aNDa-koTiM

yac-chaktir asti jagad-aNDa-cayA yad-antaH

aNDAntara-stha-paramANu-cayAntara-stham-

govindam Adi-puruSaM tam ahaM bhajAmi

</center>

ekaH--one; api--although; asau--He; racayitum--to create; jagat-aNDa--of universes; koTim--millions; yat--whose; zaktiH--potency; asti--there is; jagat-aNDa-cayAH--all the universes; yat-antaH--within whom; aNDa-antara-stha--which are scattered throughout the universe; parama-aNu-caya--the atoms; antara-stham--situated within; govindam--Govinda; Adi-puruSam--the original person; tam--Him; aham--I; bhajAmi--worship.

 

He is an undifferentiated entity as there is no distinction between potency and the possessor thereof. In His work of creation of millions of worlds, His potency remains inseparable. All the universes exist in Him and He is present in His fullness in every one of the atoms that are scattered throughout the universe, at one and the same time. Such is the primeval Lord whom I adore.

[Also translated like this in SB 2.9.35p: "I worship the Personality of Godhead, Govinda, who, by one of His plenary portions, enters into the existence of every universe and every particle of the atoms and thus unlimitedly manifests His infinite energy all over the material creation.]

 

 

BG 4.11p

Everyone is searching for KRSNa in the different aspects of His manifestations. KRSNa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, is partially realized in His impersonal brahmajyoti effulgence and as the all-pervading Supersoul dwelling within everything, including the particles of atoms.

 

 

SB 7.6.20p

He is present everywhere. He is present not only in the heart of the living entity, but also in material things, even in the atoms, protons and electrons being explored by material scientists.

 

<center>

CC Adi 5.70

gavAkSera randhre yena trasareNu cale

puruSera loma-kUpe brahmANDera jAle

</CENTER>

gavAkSera--of windows of a room; randhre--within the holes; yena--like; trasareNu--six atoms together; cale--moves; puruSera--of the Lord; loma-kUpe--in the holes of the hair; brahmANDera--of universes; jAle--a network.

Just as atomic particles of dust pass through the openings of a window, so the networks of universes pass through the pores of the skin of the puruSa.

 

 

 

March 1, 1976, MAyApur

PrabhupAda: Atomic theory...

AcyutAnanda: The atomic theory...

DayAnanda: What is the atomic theory?

HRdayAnanda: Atomic... That everything is constituted of different atoms, and the ultimate truth is the atomic particle, and by different combinations of these particles, different material manifestations are produced, and there's no other cause except this endless combining of atomic particles.

PrabhupAda: Wherefrom the atom comes?

HRdayAnanda: The atom is the eternal fact. It is inconceivable or it's unexplainable where it has come from.

PrabhupAda: Then what is the use of your explaining? Then you prove yourself you are a rascal. Inexplicable? Why you are trying to explain?

Guru-kRpA: "We're not explaining. We're just accepting it's a fact."

PrabhupAda: So everything is fact. But the real knowledge is to find out the source of the fact. That is real knowledge. Just like if we ask any gentleman--at least in India--for your identification, your father's name is required, your name of the village is required. If you go to the court, then such and such; father's name, such and such; village, this; religion, this; like this.... So father.... Why father's name? "What is the source of your existence? Wherefrom you are coming?I am coming from this family." So that is knowledge. Atom.... Atomic theory is there in Vedic conception, paramANuvAda. KaNada, the great sage, KaNada, he gave this theory, KaNada. ParamANuvAda. ParamANuvAd. ParamANuvAda is accepted in Vedic philosophy also. But we know what is this paramANu also. Just like the sunshine. What is the sunshine? A combination of shining atoms. But we can see it is coming from the sun, incessantly coming. We can see. We can, immediately say, "This is.... The source is the sun." Similarly, the paramanu, the atoms, they are incessantly coming out. But wherefrom it is coming?

Guru-kRpA: Does that mean that the atom is living entity?

PrabhupAda: Eh? No. Living entity is also atom. One class of atom is matter, and one class of atom is the living entity. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gItA.... BhUmir Apo 'nalo vAyuH khaM mano buddhir eva ca. These are... This material, matter, everything is combination of atom, atomic particles. Either you take earth or take water or air or fire, everything is combination of atom. That's a fact. But we know that these atoms are coming out as the energy of KRSNa. BhinnA. BhinnA means the quality different; not of the same quality. Apareyam: "This is inferior quality, but there is another, superior quality, jIva bhuta, and that is living entity." So two kinds of atoms are coming from KRSNa. One is the spiritual atom, and the other is the material atom. So spiritual atoms, they are many, many times greater than the material atoms. And these material atoms is this universal, innumerable universes. Some of the spiritual atoms, when they want to enjoy independently, they are given the chance of enjoying this material atom. So in the material world it is combination of material and spiritual atoms. In the spiritual world, there is no material atom; everything spirit. That is three-fourth energy, and this is one fourth. ParamANu-cayAntara-stham. [break]

 

 

 

<center>SB 5.12.9

evaM niruktaM kSiti-zabda-vRttam

asan nidhAnAt paramANavo ye

avidyayA manasA kalpitAs te

yeSAM samUhena kRto vizeSaH

</center>

evam--thus; niruktam--falsely described; kSiti-zabda--of the word "earth"; vRttam--the existence; asat--not real; nidhAnAt--from the dissolution; parama-aNavaH--atomic particles; ye--all of which; avidyayA--because of less intelligence; manasA--in the mind; kalpitAH--imagined; te--they; yeSAm--of which; samUhena--by the aggregate; kRtaH--made; vizeSaH--the particulars.

One may say that varieties arise from the planet earth itself. However, although the universe may temporarily appear to be the truth, it ultimately has no real existence. The earth was originally created by a combination of atomic particles, but these particles are impermanent. Actually the atom is not the cause of the universe, although some philosophers think so. It is not a fact that the varieties found in this material world simply result from atomic juxtaposition or combination.

 

PURPORT

Those who follow the atomic theory think that the protons and electrons of atoms combine in such a way as to bring all material existence into being. However, the scientists fail to discover the cause of atomic existence itself. Under these circumstances, we cannot accept that the atom is the cause of the universe. Such theories are advanced by unintelligent people. According to real intelligence, the real cause of the cosmic manifestation is the Supreme Lord. JanmAdy asya yataH: [sB 1.1.1] He is the original cause of all creation. As stated in Bhagavad-gItA (10.8): ahaM sarvasya prabhavo mattaH sarvaM pravartate. KRSNa is the original cause. Sarva-kAraNa-kAraNam: [bs. 5.1] He is the cause of all causes. KRSNa is the cause of atoms, the material energy.

bhUmir Apo 'nalo vAyuH

khaM mano buddhir eva ca

ahaGkAra itIyaM me

bhinnA prakRtir aSTadhA

(Bg. 7.4)

The ultimate cause is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and only those in ignorance try to find out other causes by posing different theories.

 

<center>

SB 11.16.40

saGkhyAnaM paramANUnAM

kAlena kriyate mayA

na tathA me vibhUtInAM

sRjato 'NDAni koTizaH

</center>

saGkhyAnam--counting; parama-aNUnAm--of the atoms; kAlena--after some time; kriyate--is done; mayA--by Me; na--not; tathA--in the same way; me--of Me; vibhUtInAm--of the opulences; sRjataH--who am creating; aNDAni--universes; koTizaH--by the innumerable millions.

Even though over a period of time I might count all the atoms of the universe, I could not count all of My opulences which I manifest within innumerable universes.

 

PURPORT

The Lord here explains that Uddhava should not expect a complete catalog of the Lord's opulences, since even the Lord Himself finds no limit to such opulences. According to SrIla JIva GosvAmI, kAlena indicates that the Supreme Personality of Godhead is within every atom and can therefore easily calculate the total number of atoms. However, although the Lord is certainly omniscient, even He Himself cannot supply a finite number for His opulences, because they are infinite.

 

</blockquote>

[ancient_paztriot]

This may not be it. (I don't have a Vedabase to search).

 

Yeah, it's not it. But it's closely related.

 

SB 3.11.1

The material manifestation’s ultimate particle, which is indivisible and not formed into a body, is called the atom. It exists always as an invisible identity, even after the dissolution of all forms. The material body is but a combination of such atoms, but it is misunderstood by the common man.

 

PURPORT

The atomic description of the Srimad-Bhagavatam is almost the same as the modern science of atomism, and this is further described in the Paramanu-vada of Kanada. In modern science also, the atom is accepted as the ultimate indivisible particle of which the universe is composed. Srimad-Bhagavatam is the full text of all descriptions of knowledge, including the theory of atomism. The atom is the minute subtle form of eternal time.

 

SB 3.11.2

Atoms are the ultimate state of the manifest universe. When they stay in their own forms without forming different bodies, they are called the unlimited oneness. There are certainly different bodies in physical forms, but the atoms themselves form the complete manifestation.

 

SB 3.11.3

One can estimate time by measuring the movement of the atomic combination of bodies. Time is the potency of the almighty Personality of Godhead, Hari, who controls all physical movement although He is not visible in the physical world.

 

SB 3.11.4

Atomic time is measured according to its covering a particular atomic space. That time which covers the unmanifest aggregate of atoms is called the great time.

 

PURPORT

Time and space are two correlative terms. Time is measured in terms of its covering a certain space of atoms. Standard time is calculated in terms of the movement of the sun. The time covered by the sun in passing over an atom is calculated as atomic time. The greatest time of all covers the entire existence of the nondual manifestation. All the planets rotate and cover space, and space is calculated in terms of atoms. Each planet has its particular orbit for rotating, in which it moves without deviation, and similarly the sun has its orbit. The complete calculation of the time of creation, maintenance and dissolution, measured in terms of the circulation of the total planetary systems until the end of creation, is known as the supreme kala.

 

 

SB 3.11.5

The division of gross time is calculated as follows: two atoms make one double atom, and three double atoms make one hexatom. This hexatom is visible in the sunshine which enters through the holes of a window screen. One can clearly see that the hexatom goes up towards the sky.

 

PURPORT

The atom is described as an invisible particle, but when six such atoms combine together, they are called a trasarenu, and this is visible in the sunshine pouring through the holes of a window screen.

 

SB 3.11.6

The time duration needed for the integration of three trasarenus is called a truti, and one hundred trutis make one vedha. Three vedhas make one lava.

 

PURPORT

It is calculated that if a second is divided into 1687.5 parts, each part is the duration of a truti, which is the time occupied in the integration of eighteen atomic particles. Such a combination of atoms into different bodies creates the calculation of material time. The sun is the central point for calculating all different durations.

 

SB 3.11.7

The duration of time of three lavas is equal to one nimesa, the combination of three nimesas makes one ksana, five ksanas combined together make one kastha, and fifteen kasthas make one laghu.

 

PURPORT

By calculation it is found that one laghu is equal to two minutes. The atomic calculation of time in terms of Vedic wisdom may be converted into present time with this understanding.

 

SB 3.11.8

Fifteen laghus make one nadika, which is also called a danda. Two dandas make one muhurta, and six or seven dandas make one fourth of a day or night, according to human calculation.

[Avinash]

The word atom has been in Greek language for more than two millenia. In Greek, the word atom means "not cuttable". Scientists found that all matter is made up of tiny particles. Based on experiments, they found out various properties of these particles. Dalton was under impression that these particles could not be divided further. He mentioned this in his "atomic theory of matter". Since it was felt at that time that these particles could not be divided further, they were named atom because, in greek, atom means "the one which cannot be divided further". Later it was found that these particles were themselves made up of other smaller particles. But, by this time, the word "atom" had been used in Scientific literature a lot. That is why, rather than changing the name, Scientists decided that they would continue to use the word "atom" for these particles, but they would keep in mind that these particles can be further divided.

Very often it has happened that Scientists discover something. They give it some name based on its properties. Later they find that the properties are not exactly the same as they thought earlier. But they let the name remain.

[gHari]

Perhaps examining the process of creation will shed light on the nature of the paramanu.

 

Maha-Tattva:<blockquote>PrabhupAda: Cause and effect. The mahat-tattva... Mahat-tattva is cause, and this cosmic manifestation is the effect. So beyond that, beyond that. Therefore KRSNa is said: mahat-pAdam. The mahat-tattva is lying at His lotus feet. SamAzritA ye .-pallavaM plavaM mahat-pAdam. Mahat-tattva is lying on the lotus feet of KRSNa.

Dr. Patel: Mahat-tattva is nothing but the beginning of the...

PrabhupAda: It is the total, sum total of material energy.

Dr. Patel: Of cosmic energy, yes.

PrabhupAda: Yes. That is mahat-tattva.

 

 

SB 2.2.28p

SrIla SrIdhara SvAmI confirms that a part of the material nature, after being initiated by the Lord, is known as the mahat-tattva. A fractional portion of the mahat-tattva is called the false ego. A portion of the ego is the vibration of sound, and a portion of sound is atmospheric air. A portion of the airy atmosphere is turned into forms, and the forms constitute the power of electricity or heat. Heat produces the smell of the aroma of the earth, and the gross earth is produced by such aroma. And all these combined together constitute the cosmic phenomenon.

 

 

<CENTER><FONT COLOR=RED>SB 2.5.26

tAmasAd api bhUtAder

vikurvANAd abhUn nabhaH

tasya mAtrA guNaH zabdo

liGgaM yad draSTR-dRzyayoH

</center>

tAmasAt--from the darkness of false ego; api--certainly; bhUta-AdeH--of the material elements; vikurvANAt--because of transformation; abhUt--generated; nabhaH--the sky; tasya--its; mAtrA--subtle form; guNaH--quality; zabdaH--sound; liGgam--characteristics; yat--as its; draSTR--the seer; dRzyayoH--of what is seen.

</font>

From the darkness of false ego, the first of the five elements, namely the sky, is generated. Its subtle form is the quality of sound, exactly as the seer is in relationship with the seen.

 

PURPORT

The five elements, namely sky, air, fire, water and earth, are all but different qualities of the darkness of false ego. This means that the false ego in the sum total form of mahat-tattva is generated from the marginal potency of the Lord, and due to this false ego of lording it over the material creation, ingredients are generated for the false enjoyment of the living being. The living being is practically the dominating factor over the material elements as the enjoyer, though the background is the Supreme Lord. Factually, save and except the Lord, no one can be called the enjoyer, but the living entity falsely desires to become the enjoyer. This is the origin of false ego. When the bewildered living being desires this, the shadow elements are generated by the will of the Lord, and the living entities are allowed to run after them as after a phantasmagoria.

 

It is said that first the tan-mAtrA sound is created and then the sky, and in this verse it is confirmed that actually it is so, but sound is the subtle form of the sky, and the distinction is like that between the seer and the seen. The sound is the representation of the actual object, as the sound produced speaking of the object gives an idea of the description of the object. Therefore sound is the subtle characteristic of the object. Similarly, sound representation of the Lord, in terms of His characteristics, is the complete form of the Lord, as was seen by Vasudeva and MahArAja Dazaratha, the fathers of Lord KRSNa and Lord RAma. The sound representation of the Lord is nondifferent from the Lord Himself because the Lord and His representation in sound are absolute knowledge. Lord Caitanya has instructed us that in the holy name of the Lord, as sound representation of the Lord, all the potencies of the Lord are invested. Thus one can immediately enjoy the association of the Lord by the pure vibration of the sound representation of His holy name, and the concept of the Lord is immediately manifested before the pure devotee. A pure devotee, therefore, is not aloof from the Lord even for a moment. The holy name of the Lord, as recommended in the zAstras--Hare KRSNa, Hare KRSNa, KRSNa KRSNa, Hare Hare/ Hare RAma, Hare RAma, RAma RAma, Hare Hare--may therefore be constantly chanted by the devotee aspiring to be constantly in touch with the Supreme Lord. One who is thus able to associate with the Lord is sure to be delivered from the darkness of the created world, which is a product of false ego (tamasi mA jyotir gama).

 

 

<CENTER><FONT COLOR=RED>SB 2.5.33

tadA saMhatya cAnyonyaM

bhagavac-chakti-coditAH

sad-asattvam upAdAya

cobhayaM sasRjur hy adaH

</center>

tadA--all those; saMhatya--being assembled; ca--also; anyonyam--one another; bhagavat--by the Personality of Godhead; zakti--energy; coditAH--being applied; sat-asattvam--primarily and secondarily; upAdAya--accepting; ca--also; ubhayam--both; sasRjuH--came into existence; hi--certainly; adaH--this universe.

</font>

Thus when all these became assembled by force of the energy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, this universe certainly came into being by accepting both the primary and secondary causes of creation.

 

PURPORT

In this verse it is clearly mentioned that the Supreme Personality of Godhead exerts His different energies in the creation; it is not that He Himself is transformed into material creations. He expands Himself by His different energies, as well as by His plenary portions. In a corner of the spiritual sky of brahmajyoti a spiritual cloud sometimes appears, and the covered portion is called the mahat-tattva. The Lord then, by His plenary portion as MahA-ViSNu, lies down within the water of the mahat-tattva, and the water is called the Causal Ocean (KAraNa-jala). While MahA-ViSNu sleeps within the Causal Ocean, innumerable universes are generated along with His breathing. These universes are floating, and they are scattered all over the Causal Ocean. They stay only during the breathing period of MahA-ViSNu. In each and every universal globe, the same MahA-ViSNu enters again as GarbhodakazAyI ViSNu and lies there on the serpentlike SeSa incarnation. From His navel sprouts a lotus stem, and on the lotus, BrahmA, the lord of the universe, is born. BrahmA creates all forms of living beings of different shapes in terms of different desires within the universe. He also creates the sun, moon and other demigods.

 

Therefore the chief engineer of the material creation is the Lord Himself, as confirmed in the Bhagavad-gItA (9.10). It is He only who directs the material nature to produce all sorts of moving and nonmoving creations.

 

There are two modes of material creation: the creation of the collective universes, as stated above, done by the MahA-ViSNu, and the creation of the single universe. Both are done by the Lord, and thus the universal shape, as we can see, takes place.

 

 

<CENTER><FONT COLOR=RED>SB 3.5.27-28

tato 'bhavan mahat-tattvam

avyaktAt kAla-coditAt

vijJAnAtmAtma-deha-sthaM

vizvaM vyaJjaMs tamo-nudaH

</center>

tataH--thereafter; abhavat--came into existence; mahat--supreme; tattvam--sum total; avyaktAt--from the unmanifested; kAla-coditAt--by the interaction of time; vijJAna-AtmA--unalloyed goodness; Atma-deha-stham--situated on the bodily self; vizvam--complete universes; vyaJjan--manifesting; tamaH-nudaH--the supreme light.

</font>

Thereafter, influenced by the interactions of eternal time, the supreme sum total of matter called the mahat-tattva became manifested, and in this mahat-tattva the unalloyed goodness, the Supreme Lord, sowed the seeds of universal manifestation out of His own body.

 

PURPORT

In due course of time, the impregnated material energy was manifested first as the total material ingredients. Everything takes its own time to fructify, and therefore the word kAla-coditAt, "influenced by time," is used herein. The mahat-tattva is the total consciousness because a portion of it is represented in everyone as the intellect. The mahat-tattva is directly connected with the supreme consciousness of the Supreme Being, but still it appears as matter. The mahat-tattva, or shadow of pure consciousness, is the germinating place of all creation. It is pure goodness with the slight addition of the material mode of passion, and therefore activity is generated from this point.

 

<CENTER><FONT COLOR=RED>so 'py aMza-guNa-kAlAtmA

bhagavad-dRSTi-gocaraH

AtmAnaM vyakarod AtmA

vizvasyAsya sisRkSayA

</center>

saH--mahat-tattva; api--also; aMza--puruSa plenary expansion; guNa--chiefly the quality of ignorance; kAla--the duration of time; AtmA--full consciousness; bhagavat--the Personality of Godhead; dRSTi-gocaraH--range of sight; AtmAnam--many different forms; vyakarot--differentiated; AtmA--reservoir; vizvasya--the would-be entities; asya--of this; sisRkSayA--generates the false ego.

</font>

Thereafter the mahat-tattva differentiated itself into many different forms as the reservoir of the would-be entities. The mahat-tattva is chiefly in the mode of ignorance, and it generates the false ego. It is a plenary expansion of the Personality of Godhead, with full consciousness of creative principles and time for fructification.

 

PURPORT

The mahat-tattva is the via medium between pure spirit and material existence. It is the junction of matter and spirit wherefrom the false ego of the living entity is generated. All living entities are differentiated parts and parcels of the Personality of Godhead. Under the pressure of false ego, the conditioned souls, although parts and parcels of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, claim to be the enjoyers of material nature. This false ego is the binding force of material existence. The Lord again and again gives a chance to the bewildered conditioned souls to get free from this false ego, and that is why the material creation takes place at intervals. He gives the conditioned souls all facilities for rectifying the activities of the false ego, but He does not interfere with their small independence as parts and parcels of the Lord.

 

 

Why we're here<blockquote><CENTER><FONT COLOR=RED>SB 3.20.12

maitreya uvAca

daivena durvitarkyeNa

pareNAnimiSeNa ca

jAta-kSobhAd bhagavato

mahAn AsId guNa-trayAt

</center>

maitreyaH uvAca--Maitreya said; daivena--by superior management known as destiny; durvitarkyeNa--beyond empiric speculation; pareNa--by MahA-ViSNu; animiSeNa--by the potency of eternal time; ca--and; jAta-kSobhAt--the equilibrium was agitated; bhagavataH--of the Personality of Godhead; mahAn--the total material elements (the mahat-tattva); AsIt--were produced; guNa-trayAt--from the three modes of nature.

</font>

Maitreya said: When the equilibrium of the combination of the three modes of nature was agitated by the unseen activity of the living entity, by MahA-ViSNu and by the force of time, the total material elements were produced.

 

PURPORT

The cause of the material creation is described here very lucidly. The first cause is daiva, or the destiny of the conditioned soul. The material creation exists for the conditioned soul who wanted to become a false lord for sense enjoyment. One cannot trace out the history of when the conditioned soul first desired to lord it over material nature, but in Vedic literature we always find that the material creation is meant for the sense enjoyment of the conditioned soul. There is a nice verse which says that the sum and substance of the conditioned soul's sense enjoyment is that as soon as he forgets his primary duty, to render service to the Lord, he creates an atmosphere of sense enjoyment, which is called mAyA; that is the cause of material creation.

 

Another word used here is durvitarkyeNa. No one can argue about when and how the conditioned soul became desirous of sense enjoyment, but the cause is there. Material nature is an atmosphere meant only for the sense enjoyment of the conditioned soul, and it is created by the Personality of Godhead. It is mentioned here that in the beginning of the creation the material nature, or prakRti, is agitated by the Personality of Godhead, ViSNu. There are three ViSNus mentioned. One is MahA-ViSNu, another is GarbhodakazAyI ViSNu, and the third is KSIrodakazAyI ViSNu. The First Canto of SrImad-BhAgavatam discusses all these three ViSNus, and here also it is confirmed that ViSNu is the cause of creation. From Bhagavad-gItA also we learn that prakRti begins to work and is still working under KRSNa's, or ViSNu's, glance of superintendence, but the Supreme Personality of Godhead is unchangeable. One should not mistakenly think that because the creation emanates from the Supreme Personality of Godhead, He has therefore transformed into this material cosmic manifestation. He exists in His personal form always, but the cosmic manifestation takes place by His inconceivable potency. The workings of that energy are difficult to comprehend, but it is understood from Vedic literature that the conditioned soul creates his own destiny and is offered a particular body by the laws of nature under the superintendence of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who always accompanies him as ParamAtmA.</blockquote>

[Guest guest]

More sub-atomic particles have been discovered in the last 60 years. Look at this link.http://www.krysstal.com/subatomic.html

 

[Guest guest]

"PURPORT: The atom is described as an invisible particle, but when six such atoms combine together, they are called a trasarenu, and this is visible in the sunshine pouring through the holes of a window screen."

 

I have had some problem understanding this. An atom is supposed to be so small, 1/10,000th the tip of a hair, yet when 6 such atoms combine, they are visible to the human eye, as dust passing through the window screen. The Caitanya Caritamrita also describes the atom in this way.

 

We know that the atom as described by Srila Prabhupada is indivisible. Yet, we also know that the atom is microscopic, even if multiplied 6 times. How is it that the smallest, most indivisible particle in creation, when multiplied 6 times, becomes visible to the human eye through the sun shining in a window screen.

 

Just an honest question. I have faith in the Bhagavatam regardless, whether I understand it or not.

 

BTW, this is my first post in this thread. Just now saw it and thought it interesting. Perhaps the pundits here will continue to elucidate the matter. In other words, from what I've read, when you see small particles of dust passing through the screen of a window, this is a hexatom, or trasarenu, 6 atoms combined. Is this the correct understanding? I'm not here to cast doubt, just to understand. Thankyou.

 

Bhakta Never Mind

 

(yes, my first post since I was blasted by Theist for whining, even though he continued to tolerate further guests with unsigned handles afterwards, which proved I was right, I was at the wrong place at the wrong time that day. And still, no apology for the "f...you" from this super Vaishnava whom everyone seems to adore for his tremendous humility.

 

[gHari]

Six pack of floating dust! I got the impression that it was dust somehow, and then the Caritamrita verified that it was indeed dust through the blinds/screen. It still puzzles me though. Maybe some day it will all become crystal clear.

 

I wouldn't stay too upset with Theist - he's always whining about whiners. Hell, if we weren't all a bunch of whiners we'd all be liberated and enjoying that nectar we love so much.

 

 

[Guest guest]

The verse below makes sense to a scientist (those atom splitters---Q: How to split the thing that cannot be split?)

 

Only sub-atomic partice cannot be split. Atom CAN be split, because it has two such parts (minimum).

 

This verse translation makes more sense below...

 

English Translations

 

Verse 1: (The great sage) Maitreya said: "The smallest particle of material substance, which has not yet combined with any other similar particles, is called paramanu (a sub-atomic particle of matter). Paramanus always exist both in the dormant and manifest states of material existence. It is the combination of more than one paramanu (sub-atomic particle) which gives rise to the illusory concept of a (material) unit. "

 

Verse 5: A combination of two paramanus constitutes an anu (atom); and three anus (atoms) makes one trasarenu. Trasarenus are visable [to the naked eye] when seen floating upward in the air while viewed through rays of sunlight which enter a room through a latticed window.

 

---Isn't it the "soul" that is 1/10,000 tip of a hair, not the atom (anu)? If 3 anus, composed of 6 paramanus, can be seen in streaming sunlight then atoms aren't near as small as the "atma" who can live in an atom body (Anu-deha). It is the first birth level, the smallest material body. But a soul cannot occupy the body of a subatomic particle or paramanu. Two subatomic particles combined make up the first "unit" or Anu (atom). Anus CAN be split, but paramanus CANNOT be split. That is what this verse says.

 

So it fully accords with the scientific facts. Anu=atom, Paramanu=sub-atomic particle.

 

 

[gHari]

Energy is the irreducible building block. Science may discover that the "sub-atomics" are themselves constructs of even smaller agents. The world is set to kindle our humility. Even the scientist will eventually bow.

 

 

[Guest guest]

And when we get to the smallest piece, we will put that into a new microscope and discover smaller universes still. And when we get to the furthest planet out there, we will look up and see outer space with a lot farther to go. And all of this is just a spark of Krsna's splendor.

 

Science is left to failure, and surrender to God, like einstein showed us.

 

hare krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

[theist]

I haven't been reading this thread because I just don't understand all this stuff, but I did finnaly understand what jndas was saying when he talked about a commone english usage and a chemical one.

 

Makes a lot of difference. All the time I thought it was the same.

 

Maybe that is what a footnote could point out.

 

to Bhakta Never Mind. Sorry I don't remember the incident. I can only assume you deserved it. Anyway why are you still whining?

 

Just kidding, not trying to stir something up.

[Guest guest]

I'm reading this thread - interesting. The alternate translation given as :

 

"Verse 1: (The great sage) Maitreya said: "The smallest particle of material substance, which has not yet combined with any other similar particles, is called paramanu (a sub-atomic particle of matter). Paramanus always exist both in the dormant and manifest states of material existence. It is the combination of more than one paramanu (sub-atomic particle) which gives rise to the illusory concept of a (material) unit. "

 

Verse 5: A combination of two paramanus constitutes an anu (atom);

 

If a person believes in Srimad Bhagavatam then we can be pleased to see that science is just now proving...

 

1) That atoms CAN be split = atomic energy (there fore atoms are NOT the smallest indivisable particle described in Verse 4 and named as "Paramanu"

 

2) There R paramanu or subatomic particles, which cannot be further broken down. Every notion of a "unit" is a combo of more than one subatomic particle or paramanu.

 

This is he distinction that the SB is making between Anu and Paramanau. The Scientists are NOW proving about the paramanu described in the Shastra, Srimad Bhagavat.

 

So this should increase your faith in Srimad Bhagavatam as perfect knowledge, and there should be no need to speculate further than Srimad Bhagavatam.

 

So the point is...

 

PARAMANU is Sub-atomic particle (cannot be divided)

ANU is Atom (can be divided causing atomic energy)

 

This is no attempt to criticize. I believe speaking with Srila Prabhupada right now and discussing this as we used to do, that he would agree to the change in translation. The BBT version doesn't serve that verse well, and goes against science and common sense as well as the sanskrit qualifier, i.e., a "paramanu" cannot be split further... Paramanu is basic primordial material substance, before joining other paramanus as a unit or "body" which can contain a soul. So this marks a big difference between anu & paramanu.

 

Agreed!

 

Taking the dust of the devotees and acharyas on my head I swear this is not a criticism. Just an attempt to make HDG look even better, and protect him from any dangerious angles.

 

Hare Krishna!!

 

Y/s,

Hrsikesananda das

[Avinash]

You have written that paramanu is a subatomic particle which cannot be further divided. You have also written that anu is atom. But why atom? Subatmic particles can make not only atom but some other things as well. So, how can we claim that anu can be atom only? Why can't it be, say, nucleus?

[gHari]

Sub-atomic particles are many, of all varieties, with many likely yet to be discovered. One word 'paramanu' is one word. I see no reason nor equivalence in mapping paramanu and anu to current scientific terms. After the bomb explodes these various sub-atomics are no longer existing - they are converted/reduced into energy. And for me, energy fits better into the quoted SB sentence "Paramanus always exist both in the dormant and manifest states of material existence" and in the idea that distance in planetary orbits is measured in paramanus. We also have the problem of three anus being perceptible by the naked eye like dust, and science would suggest that three atoms could never be seen without a microscope.

 

I am sure that Srila Prabhupada used the word 'atom' as in the theory he was taught in school known as atomism. He mentions it in a lecture, drawing from his 1916 science knowledge from school. Someone here suggested that Prabhupada was a 'scientific man', but that was not the case. He deferred to his master about astronomy,

preferring to remain a dog at his lotus feet in such matters. He did not even realize that the astronauts would wear space suits that allowed them to breathe oxygen. He speaks of shining atoms streaming to earth from the sun - perhaps the paramanu while the building blocks of the 'material' world are themselves not necessarily what science calls 'matter' at all.

 

Then when we consider that there is a subtle suggestion that paramanus define space (as in distance), when combined with the mechanics that must exist to provide a multi-dimensional reality, we may feel that science's simplistic ideas of space and matter may prove nowhere near what the Bhagavatam is describing.

 

[harish]

I would caution against taking on science which is based on the material world.

Unless we clearly understand how to interpret the scriptures scientifically, any attempt to claim scientific explanations would backfire and bring them into disrepute.

 

Trying to explain material phenomema through the scriptures has not been a priority, the priority has been spiritual knowledge.

 

Only when specifically challenged by atheists in the past, great men have recited Vedic verses to demostrate physical effects such as quick growth of plants and flowering.

 

let us focus on pure devotion rather than try to map latest findings of science to Vedic knowledge.