Science of self realization

[Guest guest]

In Srila Prabhupada’s book he describes Europeans as Malechas and Yavanas. I can’t help but be a little offended by this as a person of European decent.

[theist]

Actually we are not of European descent. We are spiritsoul in direct line from Krsna. In fact each one of us is His direct child. before Europe or India or America - we were, and are, and forever more will be.

 

These different bodily designations are just the results of past behaviors that we identified with. The behavior is not the identity.

[Guest guest]

It is true that we are all spirit souls but I happen to be in a white body. I believe that Srila Prabhupada was a pure devotee but I still feel a little hurt by the comments made. I mean how could all people of European decent be malechas and yavanas.

[theist]

I am also in a white body predominantly. But it is mixed. If I let things get to me I would be having my own personal race war going on in mind.

 

Scot/Irish German Jewish Native American and lord only knows who jumped in on one of those lines in the past.

 

The more you come to accept that you are spirit/self the more you will see he wasn't refering to you.

 

He also said that blacks were supposed to serve the whites. If you were in a black body you might feel hurt. As a white you may think it denoted a superior status for yourself. both would be wrong.

 

Devotee sees with equal vision.

 

Besides the terms fit the civilizations we were born under. I find American culture to be polished barbarism. Slaughtering animals by the billions and unborn humans at the rate of a million a year. No understanding of the goal in life and certainly no structured way to attain that goal.

 

Actually I see a certain similarity between Lord Caitanya in the jungle inducing the animals to chant and Srila Prabhupada's adventures in the jungles of the West.

 

Those hurt feelings will fade as knowledge of the self rises.

 

Hare Krsna

[Guest guest]

"He also said that blacks were supposed to serve the whites"

 

That's pretty heavy. I haven’t heard that quote before. In what book did he make this statement?

[shambu]

I can remember that Prabhupada said: "You American boys & girls are all born in very nice cultured families..." and praising them for joining the Krsna-conscious movement. He also said that Europeans were actually descendents of Ksatriya-clans that fled from India (Bharata) out of fear for the punishment of

Parasurama. So his view of Europeans doesn't seem all that negative on the whole. As far as mlecchas and yavanas is concerned - these are denominations for those peoples who are meat-eaters (cow-killers especially), not following Vedic culture, so this DOES apply to those of European descent and shouldn't necessarily be taken as an insult. He also criticized Indians sometimes for their "hodgepodge Hinduism" devoid of a clear religious concept. So Hindus could also feel "offended" by some of his words.

[theist]

I probably even remebered the quote incorrectly. Couldn't find in the vedabase either. Sorry.

 

Here is one from a lecture on the Bhagavatam. Prabhupada made hundreds if not thousands of comments like this. It was at the center of his teachings.

 

 

He may be a man, he may be a woman, he may be a südra, he may be a brähmaëa or he may be black or he may be white. Everyone can approach to the highest platform of devotional service. It is open field.

 

 

[shambu]

"He may be a man, he may be a woman, he may be a sudra, he may be a brahmana or he may be black or he may be white. Everyone can approach to the highest platform of devotional service. It is open field."

 

Yeah, even a dog can attain Vaikuntha by Lord Caitanya's mercy. It's in the CC (don't know where, sorry!) So what to speak of a black (or a woman!) Great stuff, this Krsna-consciousness!

[shambu]

I mean, when you say that Prabhupada said that blacks were supposed to serve the whites, you should be pretty sure he actually said that, and be able to give solid reference. Becuase it's a kind of statement that is pretty sure to arouse some pretty hard feelings all around. He could have said it, allright - Prabhupada said some amazing things sometimes. But every of his spoken (and written) statements should be considered within their context. This particular statement, that "Prabhupada said that blacks were supposed to serve the whites," could for instance have been made within the context of the ancient Varnashram-system, not at all applicable to the modern day situation... If he said it at all (which I doubt). It is more like a statement fully approvable by any member of the famous Ku-Klux-Clan, if I spell this correctly. Many devotees come up with quotations of Prabhupada that are totally unfounded. These are more or less the quotations from their own minds, I guess. Or from hearsay. One devotee once told me, "Prabhupada said: black skin - black heart." Where did he get it from? His own racist mind, I am sure. So please be careful when saying, "Prabhupada said this or that." You're supposedly quoting a Mahatma, you know... Haribol.

[theist]

Yes one should be careful. I came upon this letter last night and decided to drop the subject as I saw where it might lead. My post above was an attempt to exit gracefully.

 

You might consider using the same caution before refering to people as racists.

 

Please read carefully.

-----------------------

Letter to: Satsvarupa

--

San Francisco

9 April, 1968

68-04-09

 

My Dear Satsvarupa,

Please accept my blessings. I thank you very much for your letter dated 4/6/68, and have noted the contents. So far your being given work, there is no need for you to feel concern; you are already helping on Srimad-Bhagavatam, and permanently you can do so. So you are certainly included as worker and editor for Srimad-Bhagavatam already.

Certainly we are not going to say these things about the negro people publicly; we have no distinction between black or white, or demon or demigod, but at the same time, so long as one is demon or demigod, we have to behave in the proper way. Just like Caitanya Mahaprabhu; He had no distinction between a tiger and a man. He was so powerful that He could convert even a tiger to dance. But so far as we are concerned, we should not imitate and go to some tiger and try to make him dance! But still, tiger is equally eligible like a man. So, you can understand that these talks are not for the public, as they have not got the ability to understand. Basically we have not got hatred for anyone, but when one is demoniac or atheistic, we should try to avoid their company. A preacher's business is to love God, to make friendship with devotees, to enlighten the innocent, and to avoid the demons. This principle we shall follow. But in higher devotional life, there is no such distinction. The topmost devotee sees everything in Krishna, and Krishna in everything. Generally, as preachers, we are middle class devotees. So we should not remain as neophyte devotee. Neophyte devotee does not know how to preach. He simply goes to the temple, and offers everything with devotion to the Deity, and he doesn't know anything else. So our devotees of the society should not remain in the neophyte position; neither should they try to imitate the topmost devotee. Best thing is to remain in the via media of middle class position, namely to love God, to make friendship with devotees, and to enlighten the innocent, and to avoid the demons. These differences of body according to Karma are there, but a devotee divides them into the above groups, and so we have to divide them into these different groups and behave differently with each of the groups. It is true that we should not be attached to the differences of material bodies, but practically, in practical field, the behavior should be as stated above.

So far standard Sanskrit transliteration, that which Pradyumna is doing will be our standard. The spelling should also be standard, and based on his work. So far the word ``Ksatriya'', this is the correct spelling. All these discrepancies are happening on account of my students being unaware of Sanskrit language. Therefore, I requested Pradyumna to learn Sanskrit very seriously. He has got the aptitude, and I hope he may come out very successful.

Yes, everyone of us should be ideal to the other so everyone can get impetus to make progress more and more. The college engagements sound very nice; I shall reach there by the first of May. Hoping you are all well.

Your ever well-wisher,

A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami

``au'' can sometimes go as ``ou.'' The rest of the transliteration is standard.

 

[Guest guest]

"I can remember that Prabhupada said: "You American boys & girls are all born in very nice cultured families..." and praising them for joining the Krsna-conscious movement. He also said that Europeans were actually descendents of Ksatriya-clans that fled from India (Bharata) out of fear for the punishment of

Parasurama."

 

Are these statements in any of Srila Prabhupada's books?

As was said before I don’t think it is proper to say that Srila Prabhupada said this or that unless it is written in one of his books or audio recordings as was his statements about Europeans being malechas and yavanas.

[Guest guest]

"Yes, everyone of us should be ideal to the other so everyone can get impetus to make progress more and more."

 

Yes, we should all try to find something in each other to amire and look up to so everyone will be encouraged in some way. In so doing each of us can see ourselves as the humble servant of all. Recognizing the qualities of our ideal in others makes Radha and Krsna more directly accessible as well, God conciousness in the here and now, vital and immediate.

[Guest guest]

 

"I can remember that Prabhupada said: "You American boys & girls are all born in very nice cultured families..." and praising them for joining the Krsna-conscious movement. He also said that Europeans were actually descendents of Ksatriya-clans that fled from India (Bharata) out of fear for the punishment of

Parasurama."

 

Are these statements in any of Srila Prabhupada's books?

As was said before I don’t think it is proper to say that Srila Prabhupada said this or that unless it is written in one of his books or audio recordings as was his statements about Europeans being malechas and yavanas.

 

 

Believe it or not, some of us were actually physically present with Srila Prabhupada and heard directly from his mouth. Not everything requires written references to be valid. Then again, you're right in thinking our memories can play tricks on us, often slanting more towards what we want to believe than that which actually was said.

 

Truth eventually must be realized personally, not merely accepted from another, however realized they may be. Too much of what Prabhupada said is misused and taken out of context in my opinion. Better to become "essence seekers" than waste time discussing inconsequential details. There's no end to that and far too often it simply leads to more squabbling.

[Guest guest]

"Not everything requires written references to be valid."

 

I'm sorry but you are wrong here. I do not believe that we are to depend on hearsay. In doing so you are leaving yourself open to lies and deception.

[shambu]

I suddenly have a strong suspicion that the person who started this thread is not European at all - as he is claiming to be. I think he must be an Indian who started this discussion with the aim of instigating a prickly debate around ethnic identity, just to stir up some unpleasant emotions. He pretty much succeeded in that, even though the discussion was sidetracked to a more important issue later on (the necessity to be able to give proper reference whenever we are claiming to quote some authority). We should give credit to him for that.

 

Why do I think this man is not a European? Simple enough. Because he is saying "Malecha" instead of "Mleccha." Prabhupada never said "Malecha" nor did he write it in that way in any of his books, including in the "Science of Self Realization." So he must be Indian. Do you agree?

 

Still I must admit that I fall short in his challenge to present concrete reference as to what I said. But I am sure I either heard or read it - only that won't satisfy you. As conditioned living beings we all have the propensity to cheat, that much may be clear...

 

Please point out the weakness in my arguments.

[Guest guest]

I said that I am of European decent. I was born and raised in America and so were my parents. Seeing as the statement made by Srila Prabhupada does not favor European people, it would seem likely that a person of European decent would not want to bring this statement to anyone’s attention. In doing so it may give some ignorant people on the bodily platform an excuse to look down at Europeans. I however, am a person who must question a statement such as this. By the way, can you explain how my spelling a word different than what you are used to makes me Indian.

[shambu]

Guest-ji - indeed you SAID you were of European decent. I made a mistake stating that you said you were European. Sorry for being suspicious of your integrity. Still I find it hard to believe you are actually an American of European decent. The main reason is your usage of language. For instance you write:

 

"Seeing as the statement made by Srila Prabhupada does not favor European people, it would seem likely that a person of European decent would not want to bring this statement to anyone’s attention."

 

Sounds strange from the linguistical point of view (suggesting that you are not a native English speaker). It is not correct English, as far as I can judge. "Seeing as the statement..." doesn't make any sense. So this makes me think you are a non-English speaking person. And especially the use of the word Malecha instead of Mleccha practically convinced me that you must be Indian. Must be! Only an Indian - who is already acquainted with this word from tender childhood - would ever write the word phonetically like that. Most Westerners know this word (and other Sanskrit words) from Prabhupada's books (where it is spelled m-l-e-c-c-h-a) and would never accidentally render it as "malecha." Indians have their own peculiar way to render Sanskrit and Hindi words into Latin writing. Sometimes I read "bakthi" or "shakthi" from the pens of Indian writers (bhakti, shakti). Recently I came across the word "Vihishnu" instead of Visnu. I don't know if it's right or wrong, but it definitely sounds strange (and foreign) to me.

 

Furthermore it is a fact that according to the (tradional) Vedic perspective every people outside of Bharata is considered to be Mleccha and Yavana - not only Europeans. <font color="red"> </font color>

[Guest guest]

Stop making a big fuss over the guest's descent. Whether or not he is European is immaterial to this topic. Stick to the subject. Dont act like a smart-ass, playing part-time detective.

[shambu]

I am not making big fuss over anything. This guest was curious about my reasoning behind my suspicion regarding his actual identity. So I revealed to him what made me think so. I admit that whether or not he is actually of European descent is irrelevant to the topic. So let's quit it, then. Let it be. He may be a Martian, as far as I am concerned. Next subject.

[Guest guest]

Finally someone talks some sense into Mr. Shambu here.

[Guest guest]

Bharatavarsa is the entire world, and is stated as such in many ways. Even materialistic scientists confirm that all the continents were joined at one time. What is now india is only a chunk of the great kingdoms spoken of in the vedic literature.

 

Ramayana, for example, speaking history of approximately 800,000 years ago, spoke of the great monkey generals assigned to search for sitadevi in different areas, one was the sea to the north, the sea to the east, the sea to the south, and the sea to the west. This indicates that bharatavarsa ( some conte4nd that it was named after Bharat, brother of Lord Rama, Proxy king of ayodhya) was a huge island, with a great sea north of Mount meru (kailasa), hoime of the treasurer of the demigods.

 

Look at the scientific speculations when the earth was one supercontinent.

 

So, what are yavanas? They are a class of folks who made up their own culture, rejecting the culture of bharatavarsa, same with the mleccas, kinnaras, etc. No, the euros did not invade the subcontinent with aryanism, they left to form their own culture, lost their color because they ended up in the snow.

 

But we aint these bodies, the israeli who meditates on how he hates palestinians comes back to suffer what he created as a palestinian. The suicide bomber gets to be an israeli schoolchild blown to bits by a demoniac fanatic.

 

Everything is perfect and complete, and because it is perfect and complete, it is completely perfect.

[Guest guest]

I have yet to hear a concrete response to the initial topic due to it being diverted by Mr. Shambu, who seems to be suffering from Paranoid Schizophrenia. I’m sorry to say that because from my initial impression he appeared to be a sincere guy. I don’t know why he decided to start that childish game of his to discredit what I had to say.

[Guest guest]

I have yet to hear a concrete response to the initial topic due to it being diverted by Mr. Shambu, who seems to be suffering from Paranoid Schizophrenia. I’m sorry to say that because from my initial impression he appeared to be a sincere guy. I don’t know why he decided to start that childish game of his. I presume it was a weak attempt to discredit me somehow.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Posted twice. MY mistake

[Guest guest]

Most Indians are as childish as Shambu, if not more. They are not mature and cultured, like the Europeans/Americans. It is a genetic trait, so please dont take it personally.