I will always be with you through my books and orders. I will always remain with you

[krsna]

Devotee:

Srila Prabhupada when you're not present with us, how is it possible to receive instructions? For example in questions that may arise...

 

Srila Prabhupada:

Well the questions are answ...answers are there in my books.

 

(Morning Walk, Los Angeles, 13/5/73)

 

 

 

 

So utilise whatever time you find to make a thorough study of my books. Then all your questions will be answered.

 

(Letter to Upendra, 7/1/76)

 

 

 

If it is possible to go to the temple, then take advantage of the temple. A temple is a place where by one is given the opportunity to render direct devotional service to the Supreme Lord Sri Krishna. In conjunction with this you should always read my books daily and all your questions will be answered and you will have a firm basis of Krishna Consciousness. In this way your life will be perfect.

 

(Letter to Hugo Salemon, 22/11/74)

 

 

 

Every one of you must regularly read our books at least twice, in the morning and evening, and automatically all questions will be answered.

 

( Letter to Randhira, 24/01/70)

 

 

 

In my books the philosophy of Krsna Consciousness is explained fully so if there is anything you do not understand, then you simply have to read again and again. By reading daily the knowledge will be revealed to you and by this process your spiritual life will develop.

 

(Letter to Brahmarupa Dasa, 22/11/74)

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada:

Even a moments association with a pure devotee - all success!

 

Revitananda:

Does that apply to reading the words of a pure devotee?

 

Srila Prabhupada:

Yes

 

Revitananda:

Even a little association with your books has the same effect?

 

Srila Prabhupada:

Effect. Of course it requires both things. One must be very eager to take it.

 

(Room Conversation, 13/12/70)

 

 

 

 

After 80 years, no one can be expected to live long. My life is almost ended. So you have to carry on, and these books will do everything.

 

(Room Conversation, 18/2/76)

 

 

 

Paramahamsa:

My question is, a pure devotee, when he comments on Bhagavad Gita, someone who never sees him physically, but he just comes in contact with the commentary, explanation, is this the same thing?

 

Srila Prabhupada:

Yes. You can associate with Krsna by reading Bhagavad-Gita. And these saintly persons, they have given their explanations, comments. So where is the difficulty?

 

(Morning Walk, Paris 11/6/74)

 

 

 

 

There is nothing new to be said. Whatever I had to say, I have already said in my books. Now you must try to understand it and continue with your endeavours. Whether I am present or not does not matter.

 

(Vrindavan, 17/5/77)

 

 

 

If I depart there is no cause for lamentation. I will always be with you through my books and orders. I will always remain with you in that way.

 

(BTG 13:1-2, December 1977

[Guest guest]

let us clarify that these instructions were given to regularly initiated disciples

[theist]

Back it up

[theist]

If it is possible to go to the temple, then take advantage of the temple. A temple is a place where by one is given the opportunity to render direct devotional service to the Supreme Lord Sri Krishna. In conjunction with this you should always read my books daily and all your questions will be answered and you will have a firm basis of Krishna Consciousness. In this way your life will be perfect.

 

(Letter to Hugo Salemon, 22/11/74)

 

So are we to assume that Hugo Salemon was his regularly initiated name?

 

Who is a student? One who studies.

 

Who is a regular student? One who studies regularly.

 

Which of the two is the student?

 

The one who formally enrolls in class but never opens a book?

 

Or

 

Someone who studies the material even from a distant place?

 

[stonehearted]

A general response is that Srila Prabhupada always encouraged everyone to engage in Krishna conscious activities. He doesn't tell Hugo he will automatically or immediately attain all perfection simply by reading his books, but that it will make his life perfect. And if we actually study the entire corpus of Srila Prabhupada's books, we see that they urge us to at least engage in the most important devotional activities (note that Srila Prabhupada consistently translated bhakti as devotional service), and the five most important devotional activities, according to Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, are associating with devotees, chanting the holy name, hearing about Krishna (by reading Bhagavat, Bhagavad-gita, etc., and by engaging in Krishna katha), living in a holy dhama like Mathura or Vrindavan (or, failing that, makin our homes a replica of Vrindavan by installing the Deity of Krishna and makin His service the center of the home), and faithfully and loving serving the Deity of the Lord.

 

Regarding who's a student, Srila Prabhupad often said that one cannot become a qualified surgeon simply by reading books, but that one must enroll in the medical college and study under qualified professors--other surgeons--to those professors' satisfaction. By reading books we may gain a little knowledge (perhaps a dangerous thing), but we will not be accepted as a qualified surgeon.

[ancient_paztriot]

I have no problem with what you said. I'd just like to add 'my own' (and maybe Theist's) temperance…

 

The flip side of having a guru is that many people think that they're 'linked' just by that formality.

 

Hearing is certainly the basis… The book of the person IS the person expressing himself. Reading Prabhupada where you can really study his words without interruption or a demand on your time has no comparison. For serious understanding, it probably surpasses be present at one of Prabhupada's lectures.

 

Prabhupada's mood and expressions are certainly telling of transcendence, but it's his words that say so much more.

 

Whether someone is continuing his knowledge from a different life or just appreciating the many professional and emotional qualities of Prabhupada's books, different people will react differently.

 

Some will see more. Some will act more.

 

There is certainly the hope that there are pure devotees out there waiting to be made. A guru should be catching them.

[theist]

I've chores to do but will return. How is the work coming on inspiration intiation initaitve? Looking forward to it. i think it will be a nice mediatation for us.

 

People always use that quote you did about book study. I take it differently. I do not apply it to Prabhpada's books. I take it that one cannot go to their local book store and pick up a copy of the Bhagavatam or Gita and expect to develop perfect understanding from just employing the mundane mind to trying to decipher it.

 

Not only do Prabhupada's editions come through a pure devotee but they also contain the expression of that pure devotee's bhakti-sakti in the form of his purports.

 

TRANSLATION Sb 2.9.43

The great sage Närada also inquired in detail from his father, Brahmä, the great-grandfather of all the universe, after seeing him well satisfied.

 

PURPORT

The process of understanding spiritual or transcendental knowledge from the realized person is not exactly like asking an ordinary question from the schoolmaster. The schoolmasters in the modern days are paid agents for giving some information, but the spiritual master is not a paid agent. Nor can he impart instruction without being authorized. In the Bhagavad-gétä (4.34), the process of understanding transcendental knowledge is directed as follows:

tad viddhi praëipätena

paripraçnena sevayä

upadekñyanti te jïänaà

jïäninas tattva-darçinaù

Arjuna was advised to receive transcendental knowledge from the realized person by surrender, questions and service. Receiving transcendental knowledge is not like exchanging dollars; such knowledge has to be received by service to the spiritual master. As Brahmäjé received the knowledge directly from the Lord by satisfying Him fully, similarly one has to receive the transcendental knowledge from the spiritual master by satisfying him. The spiritual master’s satisfaction is the means of assimilating transcendental knowledge. One cannot understand transcendental knowledge simply by becoming a grammarian. The Vedas declare (Çvetäçvatara Upaniñad 6.23):

yasya deve parä bhaktir

yathä deve tathä gurau

tasyaite kathitä hy arthäù

prakäçante mahätmanaù

[ÇU 6.23]

“Only unto one who has unflinching devotion to the Lord and to the spiritual master does transcendental knowledge become automatically revealed.” Such relationship between the disciple and the spiritual master is eternal. One who is now the disciple is the next spiritual master. And one cannot be a bona fide and authorized spiritual master unless one has been strictly obedient to his spiritual master. Brahmäjé, as a disciple of the Supreme Lord, received the real knowledge and imparted it to his dear disciple Närada, and similarly Närada, as spiritual master, handed over this knowledge to Vyäsa and so on. Therefore the so-called formal spiritual master and disciple are not facsimiles of Brahmä and Närada or Närada and Vyäsa. The relationship between Brahmä and Närada is reality, while the so-called formality is the relation between the cheater and cheated. It is clearly mentioned herewith that Närada is not only well behaved, meek and obedient, but also self-controlled. One who is not self-controlled, specifically in sex life, can become neither a disciple nor a spiritual master. One must have disciplinary training in controlling speaking, anger, the tongue, the mind, the belly and the genitals. One who has controlled the particular senses mentioned above is called a gosvämé. Without becoming a gosvämé one can become neither a disciple nor a spiritual master. The so-called spiritual master without sense control is certainly the cheater, and the disciple of such a so-called spiritual master is the cheated.

*One should not think of Brahmäjé as a dead great-grandfather, as we have experience on this planet. He is the oldest great-grandfather, and he is still living, and Närada is also living. The age of the inhabitants of the Brahmaloka planet is mentioned in the Bhagavad-gétä. The inhabitants of this small planet earth can hardly calculate even the duration of one day of Brahma.

 

* Some refuse to see Srila Prabhupada as a dead anything as well.

 

Hare Krsna

 

[theist]

Paramahamsa:

My question is, a pure devotee, when he comments on Bhagavad Gita, someone who never sees him physically, but he just comes in contact with the commentary, explanation, is this the same thing?

 

Srila Prabhupada:

Yes. You can associate with Krsna by reading Bhagavad-Gita. And these saintly persons, they have given their explanations, comments. So where is the difficulty?

 

(Morning Walk, Paris 11/6/74)

 

 

[ancient_paztriot]

"Regarding who's a student, Srila Prabhupad often said that one cannot become a qualified surgeon simply by reading books, but that one must enroll in the medical college and study under qualified professors--other surgeons--to those professors' satisfaction."

 

Great theory and practice… IF you can do it. We're not talking about mundane knowledge and processes here where you just go through the motions. We're now talking surrender to transcendence beyond immediate perception in a totally unfavorable atmosphere… gotta work 8 hours a day? Very hard for us in Kali-yuga with our constitution.

 

Most of the examples one might look to here have failed. You have to be able to walk the walk, not just talk the talk. Your arguments would be so much stronger if there were more success stories.

 

Still, it is the way and the light. But it is sooo hard for most people to find this qualified guru you suggest. Hard to find competent people period.

[theist]

"Regarding who's a student, Srila Prabhupad often said that one cannot become a qualified surgeon simply by reading books, but that one must enroll in the medical college and study under qualified professors--other surgeons--to those professors' satisfaction."

 

I have heard this quote is most often misused by memebers of ISKCON who see themselves as THE bone-fide medical college and themselves as the only qualified professors.

 

I have a different view.

 

 

Conv. Chandigarh,Oct. 16,1976

 

Prabhupäda: Well, initiation or no initiation, first thing is knowledge. [break] ...knowledge. Initiation is formality. Just like you go to a school for knowledge, and admission is formality. That is not very important thing.

 

 

Prabhupada Vani school. The only requirement for enrollment is interest. For advancing to upper grade levels we need service and submissive inquiry.

 

In public schools to advance from 7th to 8th grade sometimes they send you along even if you didn't complete your studies.

 

Not so in Prabhupada Vani school. In that school advancement is measured in terms of internal change and growth. No cheating allowed, the testing procedures are absolute.

[stonehearted]

theist: I've chores to do but will return. How is the work coming on inspiration intiation initaitve? Looking forward to it. i think it will be a nice mediatation for us.

 

Babhru: I hope I can sit down and do it this afternoon.

 

theist: People always use that quote you did about book study. I take it differently. I do not apply it to Prabhpada's books.

 

B: I apply it as he gave it. He made it clear that we need guidance from an expert spiritual master. Folks like to gloss that over, but it's not what he taught us. I had a private meeting with him in 1973, my wife, my Godbrother Tarun Kanti, and I, after the temples in Hawaii were closed in the wake or Goursundar's leaving. At one point in the conversation, when Tarun told Prabhupada that he was studying to become a flight instructor, Srila Prabhpada said very clearly, "Devotees and devotional service cannot be stereotyped. There is nothing that cannot be used in Krishna's service. Simply we require guidance form the expert spiritual master how to engage everything in Krishna's service. That is the only catch."

[stonehearted]

It's even harder, according to our acharyas, to find qualified disciples.

 

He made it exceediingly clear that he meant for us to take this seriously enough that we would become qualified. Some of us took for granted that some insitutional position certified them as qualified, and some of us are working on this.

 

The fact that some victims of hubris have misused a quotation does not negate the point itself.

 

Be a saragrahi; seek the essence.

 

Gotta go to the doctor. Mo' laytah.

[Guest guest]

So are we to assume that Hugo Salemon was his regularly initiated name?

 

...i do not think that prabhupada were unhappy if hugo, having the necessary basic requirements, had asked after some time for initiation

 

Which of the two is the student?

The one who formally enrolls in class but never opens a book?

Or

Someone who studies the material even from a distant place?

 

..the most fortunate is one who formally and honestly studies in the class, the second is one who cannot study in the class everyday, but sometimes meet the master to have some explanations about the books he's reading

 

both things are necessary, bhagavata master and bhagavatam.. why ever put them in competition?

 

 

[ancient_paztriot]

Some of those notable acarayas have had the advantage of brahmana birth, or culture or some circumstance which developed them. I would dare to say that alot of them had advantages far exceeeding our own. …That's not undermining them in any way.

 

Becoming qualified. Who's more responsible to the process? The leaders and older godbrothers? Or the bhaktas? If things are a mess, it's the leaders faults… they have the authority AND the responsibility. What are they transmitting to you? (Seems they just have the perks). Theist is right… alot of lip service! This is a political statement if I ever heard one…

 

"Some of us took for granted that some insitutional position certified them as qualified, and some of us are working on this."

 

Let's not loose fact of circumstance and other variables when debating a situation or point of contention. It is not a pristene or theoretical world.

 

Seems ISKCON dealt with your points with a zonal acaraya system. I think it's seriously wrong to offend the parampara with conditioned gurus. What is the priority here? Again… you talk about qualifications… what about someone presenting themselves as a "traditional" spiritual master and not be liberated? Is he gonna advertise himself as much?

 

What happens to disciples and their faith after the truth is known? Will that experience keep them from being cheated again… what to speak of knowing their guru just "fornicates" like anyone else.

 

Prabhupada's STANDARD of gurus included the beauty of liberation… PERIOD. If you cannot recommend someone who is liberated or something that somehow satisfies this liberated criteria, then you are promising something you can't provide. You should be more honest about what you can deliver. I suggest this means not making impossible demands of people on either their effort or faith.

 

Actually, Prabhupada's books do meet this criterion.

 

For lack of a better example…

To describe to someone what the best car would be is one thing. To say they must go out and get one is something else. There should at least be a possibility before you make such demands. Otherwise you're giving failure, not hope (like alot of these guests do). Prabhupada could make absolute statements honestly.

 

If I sounded angry, I'm not. I was just being very frank about your diplomacy. Not intended to offend, but it does, I don't take it back either. Hare Krsna.

[theist]

t:So are we to assume that Hugo Salemon was his regularly initiated name?

 

 

...i do not think that prabhupada were unhappy if hugo, having the necessary basic requirements, had asked after some time for initiation

 

 

Please try again. Keep the context of my question in relation to the post I was responding to and try to answer the simple question in a straight forward manner.

 

t:Which of the two is the student?

The one who formally enrolls in class but never opens a book?

Or

Someone who studies the material even from a distant place?

 

 

..the most fortunate is one who formally and honestly studies in the class, the second is one who cannot study in the class everyday, but sometimes meet the master to have some explanations about the books he's reading

 

 

Same as above. Please try again.

 

 

both things are necessary, bhagavata master and bhagavatam.. why ever put them in competition?

 

 

That's my point. They are not in competetion. They are both present in Prabhupada's books as translation and purport.

[ancient_paztriot]

Prabhuada doubted his disciples as he said many times. He told them to seek counsel with his (Prabhupada's) godbrothers because of this.

 

Yet, he did not give autonomy to his godbrothers either.

 

I don't think he had a successor in mind. I don't think he liked his choices. I don't blame him.

 

I just read something about qualified disciples somewhere… Babhru, I understood that you meant "those that have the intelligence to straighten things out… are working on it.

[Guest guest]

So are we to assume that Hugo Salemon was his regularly initiated name?

•no

 

t:Which of the two is the student?

The one who formally enrolls in class but never opens a book?

Or

Someone who studies the material even from a distant place?

•the responsable teacher do not walk in the classroom and stay quiet if someone sits at the desk and does not open a book. So the first situation is inpossible or the guru does not understand the level and the mind of disciples so he's a fake

 

That's my point. They are not in competetion. They are both present in Prabhupada's books as translation and purport

•we are not realized, for us books are books and very often we fail to link them to our present situation (in vaishnava terms= time, place and circumstance... in christian terms= exegesys...). So we need a real pure master to teach us to apply the general instructions to our particular situations. In N.O.D. it is said that the art of applying scriptures injunctions according time, place, and circumstance is a krsna's main quality....... if we are not realized we have great difficulty in doing it

 

i follow the gaura govinda maharaja's idea... prabhupada is alive.. ok, but, can we, at our consciousness status, communicate directly with him and ask questions and receive answers exactly related to our personal situations?

 

gaura govinda maharaja says also that all acharias are alive in their books.. but the procedure of following a personal guru were never interrupted

 

 

[Guest guest]

Yet, he did not give autonomy to his godbrothers either.

 

many think different.. in one of his last days, to some god brothers, his divine grace said "if we go in the west together the prophecy of mahaprabhu "in every town and village.." will be fulfilled"

 

maybe the right way were to ask advice from expert and pure godbrothers and to seek collaboration.. the western managerial ability plus the gaudya math masters experience and purity (not much different from prabhupada's style and plan)

 

in this way, with these "guardians" available, also the true pure teachers direct disciples of prabhupada, had the possibility to emerge, not the cheaters

[theist]

 

Prabhuada doubted his disciples as he said many times. He told them to seek counsel with his (Prabhupada's) godbrothers because of this.

 

Yet, he did not give autonomy to his godbrothers either.

 

I don't think he had a successor in mind. I don't think he liked his choices. I don't blame him.

 

 

I have come to view it as something like a man who is about to leave his immature family behind. He knows they will need further guidance and naturally his concern is for their welfare. He is the guardian afterall. It would seem natural that if that man had a brother that he had some confidence in he would ask that brother to watch out for his young and inexperienced children and dependent wife. Seems very natural.

 

That doesn't mean he is turning all the property over to his brother or that the brother can now move in and bed the wife at his whim. It's not a question of someone coming in to take his role.

 

If there is an older son he is expected to take the reigns as far as he is able and he should take some advice from his uncle(s).

 

I don't see a necessity for one guru to name the next anyway. That next guru will appear as self-effulgent and since the passing guru(if genuine) knows that Krsna is in controll and will reveal Himself and His devotees to the sincere all he has to instruct apart from management issues is that all become sincere in their quest to find God. And that Prabhupada has done in every page of his books. Hence the statement from above:

 

 

There is nothing new to be said. Whatever I had to say, I have already said in my books. Now you must try to understand it and continue with your endeavours. Whether I am present or not does not matter.

 

(Vrindavan, 17/5/77)

 

 

[ancient_paztriot]

Humble opinion from an unregistered guest who does not stand accountable for his actions? I don't read you guys. I think you know that. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[theist]

will always emerge, Krsna sees to that. They just don't always appear where we think they should.

[ancient_paztriot]

Prabhupada wanted us to present his books which are widely considered to be a pure medium for spiritual reality. His success is built on properly presenting his authorities without adulteration and following the order to do so. Preaching and hearing are the basis. Obviously, Prabhupada took it much farther in his personal behavior and lifestyle, but this preaching and hearing are most fundamental and dear to the whole process… like service to love.

 

Considering these points and the many words of Prabhupada, a pure preacher is one who simply preaches without adulteration. Is that so hard to do? That is the most important quality of his work as he himself confesses. We get Krsna's direct words that way.

 

We expect to scrutinize public figures because of their claims and authority and responsibility. One might easily criticize some authority just as one would critisize president bush for not justifying his attack on Iraq. And rightly so. Are they what they claim to be? Are they consistent with accepted behavior? Is it exemplarary?

 

But if someone is just humbly doing service without any claim to position or power or qualities or anything… no one is in a position to criticize unless he is doing better.

 

I can tell you, a critic is often a bigger hypocrite than you.

[stonehearted]

It's the leaders' fault, and the rest of ours for letting it go so far. I meant no diplomacy; my views on the issue are hardly confidential.

[stonehearted]

And thunk'n good.

 

Paz: Prabhuada doubted his disciples as he said many times. He told them to seek counsel with his (Prabhupada's) godbrothers because of this.

 

Yet, he did not give autonomy to his godbrothers either.

 

I don't think he had a successor in mind. I don't think he liked his choices. I don't blame him.

 

Babhru: He said over and over again that he expected us to carry on his work. He said several times that naming a successor what not on his screen. When someone asked him about it, he said all his disciples would succeed him. And our leaders, rather than accepting counsel from Srila Prabhupada's Godbrothers, started a campaign of vilifying them. That's also their (our) fault. And a big one, too.

 

Paz: Babhru, I understood that you meant "those that have the intelligence to straighten things out… are working on it.

 

B: I meant that those who hadn't screwed themselves up too badly are working on becoming qualified to do the work. That's part of straightening things out. He wants us all to become Krishna conscious, and that's the qualification. Kiba vipra, kiba nyasi, sudra kene naya, yei Krishna-tattva-vetta, sei guru haya.

[ancient_paztriot]

Didn't people think they'd be purified by now? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

I know what you mean and I agree wholeheartedly. Maybe ISKCON will be around awhile. I jest.

 

Seriously, you're right as always… "There will be results."

 

I don't feel too right about my comments, you probably don't either. My apologies.

 

I'm dropping out of the thread. (Hopefully, no damage done).