Why are avatars always born in India?

[Guest guest]

With the exception of Jesus and Mohammed, all avatars, especially Krishna and Rama, were born in India. Some people say even Kalki-the last avatar-will take birth in India. Why is it not only avatars but also great men like Chaitanya, Madhwa and thousands of other spiritualists always born in India? Is it just a coincidence and nothing more? I dont understand this. Why not Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia or United States? Why does god always choose india? Is he partial? Can someone throw some light on this? Do scriptures give any reason for this 'bias'?

[Raghavan]

This is something I also used to amaze and glad to feel that I was born in India. Great civilization has always been existing in Indian Subcontinent while other continents were only later discovered for human immigration. Probably people would have been living which may not have been recorded, but now archaeological evidences are showing.

But why Indian Subcontinent was chosen by God for His establishment of Dharma? is something. If you also observe, the morality and chastity and sanctity of marriage is also well preserved in India than christian based countries inspite of the fact that India was invaded from every possible side of the country for centuries together. Actually the muslims and christians of India too follow the common culture (probably because their ancestors are coverted from sanathana dharma) or even others who come begin to follow the values existing. Leave behind the religious priniciples and language, there is something uniquue in India from Himalayas to Kanyakumari which keeps the traditions and culture still intact. Even today, you can see women getting up early morning and sprinkle water in front the house and put rangoli or a small kolam to invite laxmi Devi. Primarily the basic level of spirituality still exists in the society. There's something in the place which is blessed that cannot be explained and that is something Divine.

In Kali yuga itself from Buddha to Prabupaada great people came from this country to spread the Darmic principles in the world. Why from here? I also like to know.

 

[Guest guest]

Souls who have reached a certain level of spiritual receptivity are born grouped together in an effort to maintain that receptivity and keep it intact.

 

Higher levels of spiritual knowledge are received there whereas in other parts of the globe minds are too distracted.

 

India thus far has been unique on the Earth in this. But avatars appear throughout the universe so it should not be taken for granted.

 

If India gives up its attachment to spiritual culture in preference to materialism what will separate it from the other fallen countries?

[Raghavan]

Materializm is also there in India very much besides spirituality. I would not say or accept that everyone in India is spiritually oriented. there is a large group of beleifs in India on God and the ancient culture of the sanctity of marriage and traditions of religion is also followed still besides being materialistic. I guess materialism is something that always exists in majority of the crowd, but besides being materialistic, they also pray sincerely and follow atleast the crux of traditions. Howmuch ever western culture is influencing, still something sacred is existing. We have to wait and see for the present younger generations in future how they take up the moral values.

There is somekind of balance on this aspect also, while some people go away from the traditions and call them superstition, another group yet like to follow and this has been existing for quite long.

But even people who dont beleive in religion and call God as just stone also have the moral values when it comes to family traditions and customs.

For anything and everything God always the first place in India to start with. NOt just for spiritual renuciation, but even while starting a business, they first do pooja for Ganesha, Laxmi-Narayana or Shiva-Parvathi.

So I would say spirituality is part of materialistic life in India.

On one side due to this reason, large crowd of people get cheated or carried away by false saadhus and sanyasis from premandha, mukthanandha to now proven satya sai baba recently, on the other hand the basic level of beleif and moral fear of getting punished by Lord or the Supreme power is something soaked in the culture (Well... please delete the politicians from this soaked culture out of which the country is rotten now)

Among this mixed crowd of people, still real saints also come now and then and spread the Bakthi yoga to the people. People are attracted to the olden Indian traditions and culture and not to the changing snobish India trying to follow the western culture. There are now gay activists there in capital city which is western influence. If you go to Bombay and Bangalore, you can see large number of girls dressed up like westerners especially the younger generations. But still people maintain the celebacy before marriage in lare percentage even if they go for dating. Its probably dating without physical relationship out of wedlock. I would say there is a mixture of traditions there, but the basic level of spiritual path is maintained surprisingly at all levels.

As mentioned earlier we have to wait and see. Hope some avathar in the form of real sanyasi comes and change the people's mind on their influence of western culture in India.

[Frodo]

The Great Men Chaitanya is Krishna, God-Father.

 

There are many many other avatars of Krishna that are not mentioned directly in the Earthly Vedic literature having appeared on earth too.

 

All places on earth are holy.

 

Mother Earth, Sri Bhumi-devi or Gaia-devi, is Vishnu-priya, Krishna Caitanya's eternal wife. Krishna has indeed appeared often on Bharata-varsa but He has also appeared often on other continents on earth too in previous times, going back thousand, hundredthousand, millions years back, when everything on earth looked differently than in ourdays.

 

Mother Earth incorporates on her chest all stars of the universe, gateways which connect all the earthly inhabitants to all galaxies and dimensions of the universe exist on earth, called dvaras in sanscrit. In previous times people could travel using those activated dimensional-gateways (dvaras) everywhere on earth and to other starso too.

 

Frodo

[Guest guest]

Yes I very much agree with you..Each place or continent of earth is sacred in its own way and we find some form of beleifs on God even among the tribes of dark africa. So anyone who spreads the beleifs on the path towards God is a Spiritual master. But the level of actual renunciation varies from place to place and in this aspect, many number of people who actually gave up the material life and renunciated are more from Indian subcontinent. Probably because the country already has established Dharmic rules for centuries and centureies together and that helps.

What distinguishes the humans and animals is the way they conduct their personal behaviour, sexual behaviour and eating habits. Non vegetarianism was primarily advocated for spiritual renunciation added with lots of vrithams primarily because when food is controlled, physical desires are controlled automatically.

I am not aware if spiritual leaders or teachers on other contitents advocated non-vegetarianism and do they also follow that strictly. In this aspect India's spiritual masters certainly differ from others certainly.

The reason why sanathana Dharma I would consider as nice to follow is there is no compulsion or force on anyone and yet has its rules and regulations for our own betterment. Because of the actual liberty given, people get bound to it. If we take the christian based western countries, certainly Chritianity too advocates celebacy before marriage, but how many people really follow that and in that aspect how many muslims also follow that. But Christians and Muslims in India follow celebacy beffore marriage and their culture is based on sanathana Dharma following its traditions, but praying to God in different way as setforth in Bible or Qaran. For this matter which is one of the basic essence of spiritual renunciation Sanathana Dharma has won over the test of time and people who follow that have the actual fear of getting punished unlike in western countries.

IN my strong opinion, celebacy before marriage is essential for sanctity of marriage and that actually preserves the marriage even when confrontation arises between couples. When they experience everything before marriage, and keep changing from people to people as what we see in western countries (I live in US and so I can say this), they also get punished out of which the Divorce rate is very high here and family integrity is less. Parents could not control the children, because they themselve are dating around. What is use of praying on one side and doing these on other side. Certainl POPE tells people good things,but they dont have that real spiritual inclination to take things to mind and actually put into life in practicality.

As I mentioned, in India for everything and anything they first call God righht from shifting your residence from one apt to another, we first boil the milk keeping a picture of Narayana or Ganesha or some form of Krishna and then only we offically enter. It may appear funny to others, but people who dont read Gita or dont know anything in Purana also does these basic little things and without even knowing or having indepth knowledge in scriptures, people follow and have the total faith in Lord. This is something a blessing for that part of the earth.

There are villages and even cities where you find little temples in every street corner also. Atleast in South India from where I hail from you can notice that almost every house when they build they first perfom religious ceremony. All our major parties of wedding or house warming ceremony or any start up of new venture right from contruction of a bridge or a building we always do the Boomi pooja dedicated to Lord first and then onlly the material aspect of life associated with it begins. IN olden days if you read the litterature, even prostitutes who were called Devadasi's dancing in the temples for Kings and Jamindars, had on the other side a spiritual life for themselves. While they were doing something against religion, on other side they were also praying and there are also incidences where some saints got renunciated from conversing with prostitutes.

So Spirituality at the basic grass root level is always there in the minds of people like something unshakable faith and that keeps the culture intact.

Its something difficult to explain unless you really go there and see by living among people. You will surely see the difference.

raghavan

[Guest guest]

It is very puzzling to know that Krishna repeatedly chooses India, a very corrupt country, for his experiments in avatarhood. Why would he choose a poor, dirty nation over and over and over, and ignore noble nations?

[Guest guest]

it should be noted that only people in India are going to fall for this avatar stuff, so that's why god 'chooses' india again and again. Anyone can claim to be an avatar, and stupid indians start worshipping them. Once an American pilot landed in India, and the natives thought he was hanuman who had descended from the skies!! What stupidity! Only Indians can fall for this sort of thing. No wonder, there are 'avatars' in every nook and cranny of the country.

[Guest guest]

the fact is that all the fake avataras (sai baba, the new kalkis) have mostly westerns as disciples

[Guest guest]

India may be dirty and corrupted now because of the politicians (well US is also corrupted for that matter and many other countries too as its universal phenomenon). When the population of India was less in the past (You must remember its been occupied for centuries and centuries together unlike US which is hardly 400 years old), the country was not as dirty or crowded or even corrupted.

Nobility is something to do the with the majority of minds of the people and not the politicians alone.

The country may be dirty, stinking or anymore degrading words you want to add, but the spiritual thoughts and beliefs and strong faith is there among people which is unshakable.

I dont know what you call as nobility which you feel is absent in India? I can give explanation for this or even others if you describe.

 

May be God feels that people in India may follow HIm better than others out of the inner fear towards Him that He will punish and one cannot escape the Karmic law.

 

I am not saying that everyone in India is honest or clean in their attitudes, but for sure majority of the pecentage would think twice and have the fear of punishment by God before they inflict something bad on someone. A man or woman would think several times before cheating on their partner and this is also due to the fear of God. So as humans even if they get attracted, not all of them cheats and they control themselves and this is something to do with the spiritual basis. But I see in US that virginity among teenagers is a shame which is actually sad and this has lots of implications in an individual's life on his or her family integrity.

 

 

[Guest guest]

I am not mocking India. Just that I am offering explanations to better understand their gullibility when it comes to spiritual matters. Indians lack analytical abilities, and thats why they tend to fall for this. That was my point.

[Guest guest]

Indians lack analytical abilities and thats why the software industry is booming......(Does it require analytical ability and why MS is employing many Indians then?)

 

well...when it comes to God, lacking the analytical ability on the questioning of God's existence is essential and thats what is called total faith. We just beleive totally that there is supreme power and He governs the earth and He comes down everytime to help us.

 

By the way, was that piolot looking like a monkey with tail for people to mistake him for hanuman. May be someone would have just cracked a joke as these kind of religious jokes are common there which could be mistaken for real things.

 

Did you see the movie Gods must be crazy. That was taken in Africa and not in India. So people everywhere beleive sometimes strange that God is coming. Such crowd are there everywhere, while people who dont beleive in false sadhus and sanyasis are also there in India. Everyone in India does not go behind the false saints and only the few. From the fact that sai baba had 30 million followers, of which good percentage were westerners, you can estimate it how few Indians go behind him when compared to India's population of 1000 million. Where is 30 and whre is 10000, and finally he is anyway proved bogus.

So Indians have analytical thinking in what is required and when some failed to think they are still helped by ohters.

The fact that Rama and Krishna's just as characters are still living, they cannot be bogus. Only avathars can exists and not bogus people. Bogus gurus and avathars who claim appear now and then, but they dont survive.

 

[Guest guest]

Just look at all the small time "avatars" that pop up here. Like Jim Jones for example. He was the one several years back that lead many from America to S. America and ended up forcing 800 people into drinking a "suicide" cocktail and dying on their land there in one day.

 

He had indisciminate sex with both the males and females of his congregation. The pretense was he needed to do that so they would focus their minds one-pointedly on him.

 

Not too much critical analysis visible there. These East/West societies are simply external manifestations of the consciousness of those that came before. We may take birth in any sector(as well as planet or even lifeform) due to our mental state at the time of death. We must be careful to remember that we are here(wherever) temporarily and be over attached.

 

Things will change in India quickly as Maya-devi is sent to satisfy the 'hidden' desires of her inhabitants. Natural religious sentiments will give way to crass materialism even in the remote villages.

 

How is that? Mass media. Black market pornography merchants for example. Feed the lower nature and it doesn't become satisfied, it only grows stronger.

 

At some point the only Avatar that will be expected will be Kalki and perhaps not to give nice disortation on sastra.

 

Eternally Bound

[Guest guest]

Sorry I tried logging, but have to go quickly and hence replying faster..

 

>>Things will change in India quickly as Maya-devi is sent to satisfy the 'hidden' desires of her inhabitants. Natural religious sentiments will give way to crass materialism even in the remote villages.

 

 

Maya Devi has been existing ever since sprituality is there in India. She need not invade India suddenly now..Poronography and other stuffs are also there already and not something new. HOw much ever they see that on one side, the teenagers or the adolescents, dont do it practically before marriage (Majority of them and not all and HIV rate is still high in India for that matter among the undereducated crowd) and there they protect the sanctity of marriage. As I mentioned earlier, good number of people have values with religious basis and less number of people have nothing and literally nothing and just do anything they want to satisfy themselves throwing away every values of life set forth.

Are you thinking all Indian boys and girls are saintly and know nothing other than God.. They know everything whatever is there is western society, but thhe religious beleif is more stronger in all aspects of life and thats what I am trying to say..

This religious beleif irrespective of hhindus, christians or muslims or sikkh or any thing else, is more and constantly keep a taboo of wrong things in society whatever has been described in basic sanathana dharma. YOu got it now. This keep the people or the family intact. NOt all people are celebate becaue of fear, but good number of people follow celebacy out of principles since you are brought up like that. If you live there for 5 years or so, even your children will become like that and sort of automatically get controlled for that society.

I would also ascribe it to the nature of women folks there, because for celebacy of men what is required is the control of women on herself. Men are basically more animalistic and more guys are the one who see all porono movies and stuffs, while still girls in India dont permit the young men to take advantage of them even if they go for dating irrespective of her financial background. So for celebacy and morality in a society, woman has a major role. Even if some woman go for some men before marriage, they see to it that she is somehow wedded to that guy.

Sex in a society is largely controlled by woman folks and when they themselves loose the sanctity and start fooling around, men pigs start enjoying and this results in breaking of families.

What I see in US among the girls here is they allow themselves to be exposed a lot and like to be appreciated openly by men even if they are already married or have someone and they too go for physical relatinship and thats why the morals are not there among majority of the people. Imagine, if all the girls/women here too stop having premarital sex, then naturally celebacy rate among men before marriage will be high here too and they will start respecting women more rather than taking advantage of.

 

[Guest guest]

In essence, spirituality and following religious path stars and is maintained largely by women folks that are inducted in men. When women follows the religion and remain celebate until marriage,naturally men has no choice who wants to do unless he wishes to go to illicit women. (NOt all men are for that again).

so even in western countries if the percentage of women who follows or atleast respect the christianity and decide to remain celebate until they get married to one guy and just decide to stay with that guy for ever irrespective of whatevr misunderstanding or any confrontations arise between them, then certainly God would come here as another Prabupaada or someone quite often. Actually i beleive why He came here in sixties was that was the time when morals started degrading here too. (until then this society was much better than now according to my american senior colleagues who work with me). See how God comes in some form to establish path of righteousness when it is lost..but howmany people like to follow is a question...

R

[Guest guest]

I know India is already trending downward. So one cannot expect social structure which may be there now to continue. Yes I know Maya-devi is eternally existing with Krsna like His shadow but I was referring to the baser modes of passion and ignorance.

 

I was only there once briefly and saw Indian TV in a hotel. The worst from the US is being imported. Bollywood will destroy Indian culture just like Hollywood has in the US. They call it pushing the envelop. Going a little farther until the populace accepts it and then going a little farther.

 

An example of this from my own life. In the late fifties and early sixties there was this TV show called I Love Lucy. The stars played a married couple and were even married in real life. But it was against the law for them to be seen sleeping in the same bed. They each had separate single beds next to each other with a night stand and lamp in between so you couldn't even imagine them pushing those together for sex during the night. Seriously.

 

Now they are showing explict homosex on some cable channels.

People become used to it and one can only have nightmares about what is next. The mass mind is easily controlled via Hyno-vision.

 

So one may be living in the land of avatars now but they can't count on that land remaining as it is(or was) and we certainly can't be secure about our place in it for long.

 

Perhaps our best hope is to personall develop a receptive heart to the teaching of the genuine avatar when we are fortunate to have some contact (teachings etc.) The pious infrastructure, both subtle and gross, is disintergrating around us.

 

The Hare Krsna lifeline is all we have.

[Guest guest]

Yes this is what I too meant....While today's Indian society is also exposed to all dirty western side, its upto the individual to practice the path of spirituality.

As of now, still in India people howmuch ever got exposed to different kinds of sexuality in television and all kinds of stuffs...girls are still having values and moreover mothers are more respected there in India and its hard to find any guy dating or going behind older women mainly because we were brought up in such a way that older women are like sisters.

Fall in spirituality arise primarily starting from sexual behaviour in the society. Its hard to beleive and accept the fact that now in US they are giving licence to gay marriages. In the name of free country they are throwing away all values which even many americans complain.

Imagine if this kind of thing continues and the younger generations who are brough up in such an environment where they are told or made to beleive that everything is normal and everything is fine, throughout the world the morality rate will go down....

Anyways this is part of kaliyuga where the religious values will be nullified and when nothing exists then Kalki comes to save.

So dont be surprised even if everything gets lost in India too in another 100 years. But I cant imagine how US will be in the same time if already the women are exposing everything now.

May be throughout the world people will shut down the textile industries and start wandering like animals.

The word conservatism and modernn is always misinterpreted in my opinion.

Conservative--age old tradition.

Modern---new or advanced

 

So age old should be actually living like animals like cave men which is what people are going now, while modern is differentiating us from animals which is following the values..actually its happening reverse...In the name of modern they are going to cave men life.

Raghav

[Guest guest]

I am in the middle thirties and I am extremely against gayism and such marraiges...while I argue against it with my younger colleagues here who are in twenties, they feel its okay so what. Their next generation who are in early teens or in the primary school age will not even bother to argue about it. Imagine in this kind of society make up when kids are born and raised where everythhing is fine and anything is acceptable, what kind of spirituality one can expect..In couse of time i wont be surprised that if they say or create a God with gay partner to justify their actions...

I only wish things does not go to such a far extent..one happy thing is every now and then He descends down as some Guru who is really spiritual and keep initiating a good proportion of people in relgious path and these people constantly protest against irreligious beliefs.

For the present time every century needs a Guru who is really really a Guru of spiritual values and who can guide people really and not just create organizations to become popular.

Well...people like us who beleive in Krishna should pray to Him constantly for this to come and guide the people at every times...

In all puranas also its mentioned that He always descended down to satisfy the Bakthas when they cried for Him to establish the path of righteousness...

So lets keep praying to Him..even if we dont see in our times, but keep continuing our prayers to Him, He will surely come as next Guru as how Swami Prabupaada came to US to teach spirituality of sanathana Dharma to people here and make them with moral values when this country was declared a free country.

Is it not amazing how Krishna sends His messengers in the right time when something is going wrong...

So He will come again when things go worse than now....

[Raguraman]

Hare Krishna,

 

Mo and Js are no avataras period.

[Guest guest]

Prabhupada said differently. But thanks for providing a choice of views.

[harish]

Unfortunately spiritual disucssions get into Pro and Anti India mode, which will be irrelevant for non Indians who want to disucss krishna Consciousness.

India is great no doubt, it has also run into decadence.

 

however Avatars can happen only at the place where Avatars are beleived. The key is Santana Dharma. Avatars shoudl logically happen at places where ancient civilizations happened.

 

China-The civilization has been more secular based on principles rather than God.

Greece-Pantheistic relegion with no backup philosophy to support their Gods

Egypt-Great nkowledge but again beleif in a one powerful god kissing and it ran into ruin

Sumeria-May be too primitive for organized relegions

South America-May be too primitive for organized relegions

 

India-Very strong philosophy connected to theism, many other positive conditions, stress on Gurus who guide to the right path, relegion tightly integrated with daily-life.

Any comments?

[Guest guest]

Avatars can only take birth in Arya nations. At the moment, India is the only one, other nations have degenerated, they have become dasyus, hardly worth a few dollars.

[Guest guest]

I can agree in general. But it takes a spiritual eye to spot the exceptions. Avatars are sometimes empowered for specific missions which appear to be outside of the common vedic norm.

[Guest guest]

Here, bhuvo bhära-jihérñayä. An avatära comes to do some particular work. Just like Lord Rämacandra came to punish Rävana. That is avatära. And there are many avatäras, they are mentioned in the Srimad-Bhägavatam: Matsya-avatära, Vämana-avatära, Kürma-avatära, and Varäha-avatära, Vämana-avatära, Nåsiàha-avatära, and Paraçuräma-avatära, Balaräma-avatära, Buddha-avatära. Buddha is also avatära. Keçava dhåta-buddha-çaréra jaya jagadéça hare. We do not agree with Buddha philosophy. Caitanya Mahäprabhu said, veda nä mäniyä bauddha haya ta’ nästika. Buddha philosophy is atheism: “There is no God.” He says “There is no God.” So that is atheism. And especially... That there is no God, there is God—that is not the point. His point was to stop the animal-killing. Sadaya-hådaya darçita-paçu-ghätam. Krsna became very, very, sympathetic with the poor animals. “Oh, in the name of yajïa, these rascals, rogues, are killing so many animals.” Therefore He came as Buddha-avatära. Sadaya-hådaya darçita-paçu-ghätam. Keçava dhåta-buddha-çaréra jaya jagadéça hare. So Vaisnava knows that “Here is Lord Buddha. He’s Krsna’s avatära,” although we don’t take his philosophy, because Buddha refused to accept Vedic authority. Nindasi yajïa-vidher ahaha çruti-jätam. Çruti means Veda. Çruti-jätam. In the çruti, in the Vedas, there is mention of paçu sacrifice, animal sacrifice, there is. So they began to argue with Lord Buddha that “You are stopping yajïa-vidhi, stopping animal-killing in the yajïa. This is mentioned in the Vedas.” But Lord Buddha knew, “These rascals simply talking of Vedas, he does not know what is Vedas. But what is the use of arguing?” Therefore he has to say, “I don’t care for your Vedas. Stop animal killing.” So nindasi yajïa-vidheù. Yajïa-vidhi, he wanted to stop. No more animal sacrifice in the yajïa. Therefore he is denying the authority of Vedas. Nindasi yajïa-vidher ahaha çruti-jätam. We cannot violate which is mentioned in the... Therefore he was taken... But he’s avatära. It was needed at that time. SB lecture 760922sb.vrn

 

I know Buddha was born in India but he taught outside the vedic norm.