Ban on "gay" marriage

[Guest guest]

I always derided the homo movement, not because I hate them which I do not, but because they try to say that their trip is inherant, like being black. This is bogus, gay is a trip acquired by association alone, not inherant.

 

Therefore, though all humans must be afforded human rights, these rights are not affirmatively applied for choices. Affirmative action laws were applied for inherant minority status, not status chosen by behavior acquisition.

 

So, sorry, my gay fellow human beings, Dr Martin Luther King would not support you. He would stand with you in regards to hate crimes against you, but would not approve of your behavior acquisition.

 

Kinda like conservatism. This is something acquired over time, by association. All children are anti-war for all reasons, all children are free from discrimination against anyone who wants to play. Simple. They learn war. they learn discrimination, they learn har treatment of others.

 

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

 

But I do support gay "merriage" (see article above), meaning that I wish the gay community well, and that all relationships are dovetailed with service to the supreme lord, and that promiscuity and loose habits are gradually decreased, I think even the most vitriolic opponant of Gay Marriage would hope that, for the benefit of society. As heteros with proper chastity do not parade their sexual desire in public in an exhibitionist manner, I have great respect for those who are private in such matters. If Gay unions promote this chastity, then I support them. Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

[Guest guest]

 

Have no doubt about it! Homosexuality is definitely inborn. First, just ask anyone who is homosexual. They will all tell you that it was a quality they were born with ever since they can remember, and they were raised in exactly the same environment as their heterosexual siblings.

 

Secondly, modern science has so far come to the same conclusion, at least as far as major indications go, and this is stated by all important scientific organizations.

 

Third, it says in the Vedas: "A male child is produced by a greater quantity of male seed, a female child by the prevalence of the female; if both are equal a third-sex child is produced..." ("Manusmriti 3.49) This verse indicates that gays and other sexually ambiguous persons are biologically established that way even before birth, at the time of conception.

 

So therefore I can guarantee you that all gays are genetically born that way. Some people are bisexual, meaning they desire both sexes, or switch back and forth, but they are different from exclusively heterosexual or homosexual people. Sometimes heterosexuals do engage in same-sex behavior, such as in prison, or when females are not available (as mentioned by Srila Prabhupada in the Bhagavatam), but that is a completely different category from inborn homosexuality and does not involve affection or natural attraction.

 

Christianity did not reduce homosexuality from the times of the Greeks. It simply drove it underground. If you study the records of Medieval European and Renaissance social history, there is plenty of evidence of homosexuality everywhere.

 

In short, accommodating homosexual people in a positive way in society does not "create" more homosexual people. They are just more visible as opposed to being hidden. As a biological occurrence, most studies place the ratio of homosexual people at around 5% of the population, and bisexuals at around 10 to 15%. These ratios are fairly consistent despite time, culture, or geographical location.

 

Generally speaking, the more advanced the culture, the more accepting they are of homosexuals and other minority groups. This explains why there is so much evidence of the tolerance of homosexuality in Vedic culture, and why degraded and backward Kali Yuga cultures, such as the Taliban, Nazi Germany, etc., punish it so severely.

 

[theist]

 

Have no doubt about it! Homosexuality is definitely inborn. First, just ask anyone who is homosexual. They will all tell you that it was a quality they were born with ever since they can remember, and they were raised in exactly the same environment as their heterosexual siblings.

 

Secondly, modern science has so far come to the same conclusion, at least as far as major indications go, and this is stated by all important scientific organizations.

 

Third, it says in the Vedas: "A male child is produced by a greater quantity of male seed, a female child by the prevalence of the female; if both are equal a third-sex child is produced..." ("Manusmriti 3.49) This verse indicates that gays and other sexually ambiguous persons are biologically established that way even before birth, at the time of conception.

 

 

Yes they were established that way before birth. That is the point. Before birth means a certain disorganization in the subtle body which determines the nature of one's birth.

 

Lots of different classes of people "feel" strongly pulled in a ceratin direction. Pedophiles, both homo and hetero say the same thing. To them it feels natural no matter how obvious it is to everyone else that it is unnatural.

 

Ultimately it is all identity confusion as to the real nature of the self. Adding gender confusion while in the world just adds to the entanglement.

[Guest guest]

 

There is no gender confusion with gays and lesbians. Some people just like having both male and female qualities and like to serve Krsna that way. It's a part of the beauty and diversity of nature. To attribute it as something "disorganized" or "confused" indicates a basic lack in the understanding of Nature. That's like saying there should only be red or yellow, but never any combinations like orange, because that would be too confusing! The world is much more variegated than we can imagine, and the spiritual world even more so. There are many different types of men, many different types of women, and many different types of people with both male and female qualities such as gays and lesbians. Similarly, there are many types of races, genders, species, colors, sounds, tastes, and on and on ad infinitum.

 

To say there should only be one type of man and one type of woman seems very impersonal to me. Nothing else works that way in nature.

 

"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed."

 

"The universe is not only more variegated than we suppose, it is more variegated than we CAN suppose."

 

-Quotes from Albert Einstein

 

[theist]

 

There is no gender confusion with gays and lesbians. Some people just like having both male and female qualities and like to serve Krsna that way.

 

 

Now you are confusing your homosexuality with your siddha-svarupa?!?

 

 

Actually nature teaches well defined gender roles. That is how nature proagates itself. There may be some snail or slug that is asexual and just reproduces that way but that is rare. If you want to be rare in that way nature will provide for you.

 

Afterall the whole material world is based on deviation. Homosexuals are not alone in this. They are just adding another layer and deviating within on the deviation.

 

Maybe just do what you do and learn to keep it to yourself while chanting Hare Krsna. All this trying to convince everyone to accept and validate your confusion reveals a certain level of desperation to be accepted by the social body at large which is against the soul's real self interest. We need to become detached from such concerns. And to keep forcing it on the devotee community and distracting people from Krsna katha is really rather offensive.

 

Why don't you post something about Krsna instead your prefered type of sex.?

[Guest guest]

Srila Prabhupada often spoke of priorities. These are what determines success or utter failure in ones quest for spiritual enlightenment.

 

No one respects an artificially sterile environment. Devotees are capable of having discussion on wide ranges of subjects, but the bottom lie is that the devotee has Lord Krsna's loving service as the ultimate priority, and all else pales in comparison.

 

Therefroe, devotees are mindful of the elephant offense of thinking Krsna Consciousness is merely another thing to do with ones life, along with all the rest.

 

So, while we all have our opinions, diverse, devotees are united in the reality of bhakti yoga. Oppression, freedom, right, left, republican, democrat, gay, straight, these are all areas of diversity, yet are mundane subjects entirely. Devotees must not link any of these things with dual antitheses with the process to awaken self realization.

 

Okay, so the gays dont want to be murdered, I dont want them murdered either. But this does not mean I want to learn the science of being gay. I could go watch a billy goat if I wanted such info. I have the same exact prejudice and criticism for those who want to teach me the science of heterosexuality, so one cannot accuse me of discrimination or unfair bias. I dont study war, I dont have illusions of peace on earth (especially in kali yuga), both dems and GOPs agree on things devotees find utterly incompatible for spiritual advancement.

 

So, yeah, we yak and yak, but we dont confuse the issues by trying to force god into compliance with our ideologies..

 

hare krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

[Guest guest]

 

Actually, some of the most beautiful and valuable things in nature are rare or unusual, so I don't see how your argument that only common or "well-defined" gender roles can be appreciated. Gold is especially valuable because it is rarely found. Four-leaf clovers are a joy to find because they are unusual. Pearls that form within an oyster can also be seen as "deviations" of nature, but they are treasured.

 

Appreciate God's diversity and you will learn to love and respect all beings.

 

[theist]

 

Appreciate God's diversity and you will learn to love and respect all beings.

 

 

That is to be accomplished on the level of the spiritsoul.

 

There are no real homo or heterosexuals, or black and white, man animal or plant species. From the hells to the heavens all is a facade.

 

The identification of yourself as a homosexual is just an illusion my friend. The more you defend it as a reality the longer you will be in samsara.

 

We all have our own brand of false identification to surpass.

[Guest guest]

 

I only identify myself as a servant of Krsna, but that doesn't mean I can't recognize and appreciate God's diversity as opposed to impersonal oneness. After all, this world is only a reflection of the spiritual world, and it's very existence rests entirely upon the spiritual. There will never be just one race, one color, one sound, one gender, or one anything--whether we are talking about the spiritual or material world.

 

If anything, I'm more inclined to believe that there is even more gender diversity in the spiritual world. If we read the pastimes of Lord Krsna and His devotees, they all definitely display a wide range of gender variety and light-heartedness.

 

So the bottom line is that if we cant' appreciate diversity in this world, then how will we be able to in the spiritual world?

 

[Guest guest]

 

I agree with everything you're saying about appreciating God's diversity! Yes, we are not these bodies, but we aren't supposed to be impersonalists either!

 

Getting back to the original topic of gay marriage, for me the bottom line was when I found out it was allowed in Vedic culture, like prostitution, polygamy, etc. If all these things were allowed then, why do we have to ban them now? Of course, we should discourage illicit sex through spiritual instruction, but there is no need to ban, criminalize, or try to force religious conduct upon others through harsh legal means.

 

My older sister is lesbian and has been in a loving marital relationships with the same partner for over eighteen years now. I don't see any reason why she shouldn't be allowed to marry like everyone else. Her relationship isn't going to harm anyone.

[theist]

and have fun.

 

Hare Krsna

[Guest guest]

means accepting discipline one may not want to accept and reject activities one may not want to give up.

 

Gays can get married, kids can pray in public schools. Freedom is always there.

 

But this issue is not about freedom, this is about shoving stuff upon others. I have no hate for gays, but this does not mean I accept them always yakkin about how they have their genitals working. There is no prejudice there, because I refuse to let heteros do that either.

 

If your gay and want to get married, do it. But dont exdpect others to come to your wedding, because even you say that it is a bond between two people. Why should it be forced upon 250,000,000 people to get into your bed with you.

 

I said the prayer in school as well, because all political issues of fanaticism, right as well as left, are truely bogus. Haridas thakur prayed in horrible prison, my late friend prayed without ears and had no mouth. Why you cant pray in school? Because the folks who push this issue are just as bogus as those who push the gay marriage, hypocrites, making principles to force on others.

[Guest guest]

I have never seen this site before. I found this site because I was doing some research. First of all a little about myself, I am a romantic. I am monogamous. I am human and I feel and love. I am Gay. To try to make yourself sound like you would actually support gay marraige is just absurd, and that's what you were implying in your message. You, from what I understand, are saying that the only reason gay marraige or civil unions shouldn't be allowed is because, YOU believe, that the only reason we want it is because straight people have it, that's absurd. I would like the opportunity one day, to have the right, to stand up and declare my love for the man I am with someday. And your abortion stats, those are just dead wrong. Most people who get an abortion are getting them because they have no other option available. If you illegalize abortion all that would happen is that the people of the higher socio economic status would still get them, because they have the money to fly to other countries where it is still legal, and those of the lower socio economic status will still try to get them in America but it will be the Back Alley Abortions which have a high fatality rate for the mother also. Besides the point that isn't this discussion about gay marraiges NOT abortion? And for the record I do believe in God and a purpose in life, I just believe that if their is some high benevolent being I really sincerely doubt that He/She cares who I am sleeping with. I do believe in right or wrong, good or evil, I just think that someone that's straight shouldn't be telling me that I'm evil when the last I checked God hadn't sent any revelations to the current population. What I find ironic are those religious nuts who say God thinks homosexuality is bad bad bad, and yet didn't God also say to leave judgement up to Him/Her? And intellectualize our actions, well duh. I would like to think that most humans like to think along the logical path, and I'm pretty sure a higher being would want that also. Oh and not accepting the burdens of life? OK I served in the military, I got medically discharged and supposed to end up in a wheel chair, but fought the condition, and am now a fully productive member of society going to school for Poli Sci Prelaw and Psychology, and yet I still find time to do community work, helping my little brother's school out, helping my parents financially etc. So don't ever imply that gay people don't have burdens that we don't deal with. I have plenty of them including bigotted people who can justify their prejudices behind God.

[Guest guest]

 

This is a nice quote by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura:

 

"Ah! Vaishnava-dharma is very liberal. All jivas have the right to vaishnava-dharma; that is why it is also known as jaiva-dharma. Even outcastes can take up vaishnava-dharma and live as grhasthas, although they are not part of varnasrama."

 

("Jaiva Dharma" by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur, p. 172)

[theist]

But I for one don't care for the perverted way you are trying to use it. Pushing your homosexual agenda onto the Krsna conscious movement is hardly the same thing as promoting Krsna consciousness in a broadway to the world.

 

Liberal is a very nice word when used in proper context.

 

lib·er·al·ly /-b(&-)r&-lE/ adverb

- lib·er·al·ness noun

synonyms LIBERAL, GENEROUS, BOUNTIFUL, MUNIFICENT mean giving or given freely and unstintingly. LIBERAL suggests openhandedness in the giver and largeness in the thing or amount given <a teacher liberal with her praise>.

 

GENEROUS stresses warmhearted readiness to give more than size or importance of the gift <a generous offer of help>.

 

BOUNTIFUL suggests lavish, unremitting giving or providing <children spoiled by bountiful presents>.

 

MUNIFICENT suggests a scale of giving appropriate to lords or princes <a munificent foundation grant>.

 

In other words Audarya. Lord Caitanya is liberal in His distribution of the Holy Names.

[gHari]

Why the hell should I yield tax breaks to such marriages?

 

Why can't I marry my dog and claim her as a spousal income tax deduction? You bigots got something against bestiality?

 

[Guest guest]

 

I don't care for the way you're trying to pervert Krsna consciousness into some kind of hateful Neo-Nazi cult.

 

Liberal is liberal. Either you are kind, compassionate and accepting, or you are not. It's as simple as that!

[Guest guest]

Why should anyone yield tax breaks to support marriages? The answer is because it is in the best interest of society to encourage monogamy and strengthen families, including those of gay couples.

 

Are you comparing bestiality to the love and committment of two caring adults? Ha Ha. Very funny. Nobody's that stupid.

[Guest guest]

 

You can say that again! If someone doesn't know the difference between human love and marriage, and sex with animals, they probably shouldn't even be posting here!

 

It's just the same old gay-bashing trash. Trying to compare loving gay couples with something as degraded as bestiality and pedophilia. Disgusting!

 

I think these guys need to spend more time chanting Hare Krsna. Then the compassion and love of Lord Caitanya will enter their hearts and lift their minds out of the gutter!

[theist]

A militant homo activist just called me a Neo-Nazi. That is pure hate speech. Next time I'll be forced to toot my whistle at you.

[theist]

 

You can say that again! If someone doesn't know the difference between human love and marriage, and sex with animals, they probably shouldn't even be posting here!

 

 

Yeah what an insult to animals. Why would they want to have sex with a human anyway. Animals have at least that much intelligence. They can tell who is a member of their species or not and also they can distinquish a member of the opposite sex from their own.

 

[theist]

The military's policy is probably is best.

[Srijiva]

I don't know if this was made clear, but only 10 states in the USA banned gay marriage. Oregon being one of them.

 

So only the states that got it on their ballot voted on it, 10 states passed it. so the US constitution hasn't been changed, only individual state constitutions.

 

which makes the whole thing confusing. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

I think there are FAR more important issues we could be voting on in this country.

[gHari]

So I will not comment on 'gay' families, other than to note that I find that aberration infinitely more disgusting than same-sex-sex. I curse them all for what they do to the innocent. It is dog society. It is simply mutual masturbation. Love never degrades into aberration like that. It was never love.

 

[Guest guest]

 

This policy won't last much longer either! The United Kingdom, Australia, Israel, Germany, and much of Europe all allow gay military members to serve openly. According to all reports it has been working just fine.

 

America's "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy is a joke and everyone pretty much knows it. Even the majority of military members polled, over 60%, say they would not have a problem with gays and lesbians serving openly.