ISKCON is not only Srila Prabhupada's creation, it is Srila Prabhupada's body

[krsna]

The GBC as Srila Prabhupada's Vapuh?

 

 

 

The following is a very important message from H H Bhakti Charu Maharaj posted on BCS Istagosthi. Thought of sharing with you as it explains about Srila Prabhupada and ISKCON.

 

From : BCS Secretary

 

Dear Devotees,

 

Please accept my best wishes. All glories to Srila Prabhupada. I am writing this message today to remind you of a very important principle: ISKCON is not only Srila Prabhupada's creation, it is Srila Prabhupada's body.

 

If Srila Prabhupada were here, we would serve his body with all our ability and all our care. Just as we would serve Srila Prabhupada's body, with a similar attitude, we must serve ISKCON. That is the most important consideration. We must meditate upon this principle at every moment. We must be very careful to give protection to Srila Prabhupada's body and ensure that by no means do we hurt Srila Prabhupada.

 

How can Srila Prabhupada be hurt? Srila Prabhupada's body (ISKCON) can be hurt when the society is attacked. There are so many ways one can attack ISKCON. The worst of all is to attack ISKCON by criticizing its leaders. We should be very, very careful not to criticize the leaders of ISKCON. We should not find faults in those who are in leadership positions.

 

In Vedic culture, one does not criticize the father or uncle, even if he is wrong. There is a reverential attitude towards them. We should have a similar attitude towards ISKCON's leaders. And just as in a family, if the uncle is doing something wrong, we do not take the matter into our own hands because we can be sure that the senior members of the family will take care of it. It will not go unnoticed, it will be taken care of. Similarly, if there is wrongdoing on the part of a senior devotee, there is a structure that will take care of it. The GBC is the ultimate managing authority. The GBC is a very vigilant body. It may take time, but rest assured that the GBC will take care of anything that is wrong.

 

A Vaisnava does not want to criticize anyone. For example, in Vrindavan, there was one very, very exalted Vaisnava. One day, there was a mahotsava, a festival. Many people were invited. This person noticed that one Vaisnava was not there, so he questioned what happened to him. Somebody said that he has done this and that, so we did not invite him. This very senior Vaisnava got up and started to walk to the door. When asked why he was leaving, he said, "For such a small little fault, you have rejected him, you do not know all the faults that I have. I know that if you get to know about them, you will reject me also. Before that happens, I decided to leave."

 

That is the mood of a Vaisnava. He is as humble as a blade of grass. If we want to become Vaisnavas, we should not find faults. Those who are in management, they have this thankless task of finding out all the garbage and trying to rectify. We should leave it to them.

 

Materialistic people are gossip mongers. They say, "He did this, he did that." All their joy is derived from speaking badly about others. When we speak badly about someone, we are actually taking his bad karma. Before speaking ill of someone, be aware of that fact. You are actually ridding him of his bad karma and accepting it yourself. You are causing great injury to your own spiritual life. Mahaprabhu told Raghunath dasa Goswami not to indulge in mundane discussion. Mundane discussion means speaking badly about others, backbiting. This fault-finding and backbiting causes the heart to shrink, whereas, Krishna Consciousness is the process that expands the heart.

 

A Vaisnava derives joy by glorifying devotees. Devotees are the reservoir of good qualities. If out of hundreds of good qualities, someone displays one bad quality, it should not be magnified. Make it a point to create a very nice atmosphere by glorifying others. That is what Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu wanted. Desiring no respect, glorification, adoration for ourselves, we should offer all respect, glorification and adoration to the Vaisnavas: "See how wonderfully he is rendering his service. He has offered himself to Srila Prabhupada." That is how we should see every Vaisnava, what to speak of a very senior devotee.

 

Then, a very nice atmosphere will be created. Vaisnavas are like swans. They live in a very clean lake. The crows live wherever there is garbage. This becomes very obvious in Calcutta in the morning. When we were in Calcutta, I used to chant on the rooftop sometimes. I would see that there are crows and there are pigeons. The pigeons would fly to the rooftops. People would throw grains and the pigeons would take the grains, but no crows would come. They would just gravitate towards the garbage.

 

Let us keep our ISKCON clean and create a very wonderful atmosphere. It is natural human behavior that if someone does something wrong and we become very heavy and criticize the person, he will leave bitterly. However, if we deal with him compassionately, but at the same time, address the mistake, he will recognize it and better himself. We must try to create such a nice atmosphere in ISKCON that everyone will glorify Srila Prabhupada. Our behavior reflects on Srila Prabhupada.

 

When I joined ISKCON, I had to sign a form. One of the points was that I should never act in a way that will disgrace Srila Prabhupada. That was so striking to me. It sank deep in my heart. I made it a point that I would never act in a way that would disgrace Srila Prabhupada.

 

If you act in an illustrious way, people will say, "He is such a wonderful person because he has accepted the teachings of Bhaktivedanta Swami." This is the best way to glorify Srila Prabhupada. On the other hand, if we act in an inappropriate way, people will say, "The Hare Krishnas are like this, and the head of the Hare Krishnas is like this." We should be very, very careful to act in a way that will not bring disgrace to Srila Prabhupada. Our behavior should glorify Srila Prabhupada.

 

Please take this message very seriously. Help each other in progressing in spiritual life. Become exemplary. Mold your life according to the instructions of Srila Prabhupada. Srila Prabhupada has given us the perfect process. Now mold yourself according to that and I can assure you that you will go back to Godhead. Just follow Srila Prabhupada's instructions and the door to the spiritual sky will open up so wide that not only you will be able to enter, but you will able to take others with you also.

 

Thank you all very much.

 

Yours in the service of Srila Prabhupada,

 

Bhakti Charu Swami

 

[Kulapavana]

phalena paraciyate...

 

...once burned, twice shy...

 

this the world of cause and effect...

 

...and many more such time tested sayings come to mind in this context, but indeed - Kali-yuga is the age of quarrel and we should work together and not against one another. let ISKCON show us how it is done...

[ancient_paztriot]

let ISKCON show us how it is done...

 

I 2nd this.

 

This they will have to learn first… it is all they need…

 

Learn how to compete sincerely.

....................

 

Shortly after…

 

I just heard this… made me think of this post.

 

Hridy:

To be independent of something desireable may be a very undesireable thing.

 

(Hridy will be at the questions and answers booth at the L.A. Ratha-yatra Sun., August 1st …as well as San Frncisco the following week).

 

I'll see some of ya'll there!

[Guest guest]

we must aply the same to Sri Gaudiya Math, is de body of Srila Bhaktisiddanta Sarasvati Prabhupada...

[Sunandaji]

We Will Never Leave ISKCON

1

A Lecture on Prabhupada's Disappearance Day, Nov 20 2001 eve

1

Tridandisvami Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja

1

[srila Narayana Maharaja:] I offer my humble obeisances unto the lotus feet of my transcendental guru, om visnupada Sri Srimad Bhaktiprajnana Kesava Gosvami Maharaja, and also unto the lotus feet of my siksa-guru, om visnupada Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja.

 

I want to clarify something. We know that Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja established Iskcon. What is Iskcon? He himself has clarified the meaning:

 

krsnah bhakti rasa bhavita matih

kriyatam yadi kuto 'pi labhyate

tatra laulyam api mulyam ekalam

janma-koti-sukrtair na labhyate

 

["Pure devotional service in Krsna consciousness cannot be had even by pious activities in hundreds and thousands of lives. It can be obtained only by paying one price; that is, intense greed to obtain it. If it is available somewhere, one must purchase it without delay." (Caitanya-caritamrta Mad.8.70)]

 

Those persons who follow this verse are actually Iskcon members. (from Prabhupada's folio - "I have translated the words Krsna consciousness from krsna-bhakti-rasa-bhavita.") Iskcon is not new. Your Prabhupada did not actually establish Iskcon. Iskcon was established by Brahma, and by Krsna Himself. Brahma is one of the four sampradaya gurus, and he established Iskcon by the mercy of Krsna. Narada is the first Iskcon member, Srila Vyasadeva is the second, and Sri Sukadeva Gosvami is the third. All pure devotees in the guru-parampara are Iskcon members. (from Prabhupada's folio - "I have given you the process of disciplic succession: from Krsna, Brahma; from Brahma, Narada; from Narada, Vyasa; from Vyasa, Madhva; from Madhva, Madhavendra Puri; from Madhavendra Puri, Isvara Puri; from Isvara Puri, Lord Caitanya. So, evam parampara. In the parampara system, in that disciplic succession, you will find no change…They are not foolish to manufacture something new… If you want the real thing, then you have to take the old - the oldest. You cannot change anything. Can you change the law of the sun rising or setting? The old laws are going on, and you have to follow them.")

 

Srila Swami Maharaja translated the name 'Iskcon' into English, but Vaisnava society has actually existed since the origin of creation, the beginning of time. As he himself has said, it is 'the same wine in a new bottle.' He never created anything new. He gave the same philosophy that Krsna gave in His Gita, the same philosophy that was given by Srila Vyasadeva in his Srimad Bhagavatam, and the same philosophy that was given by Krsna dasa Kaviraja Gosvami in Sri Caitanya-caritamrta. He took all these teachings from his guru, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Gosvami Thakura. He also took something from his sannyasa guru. He received the sannyasa mantra from him, the mantra for attaining the service of Radha. After that, he preached this mission. In this way, only the name of his mission was new, and it was mainly only new to Western countries. In India Iskcon has been extant from the beginning of time.

 

We should not give up Iskcon. Those who have left that eternal Iskcon are really very unfortunate. Those who are following Srila Vyasadeva, Srila Sukadeva Gosvami, and Srila Rupa Gosvami are actually in Iskcon. They can never give up Iskcon. They can give up their lives, but they cannot change. Those who are not following the principles of Srila Rupa Gosvami, Srila Swami Maharaja, and our guru-parampara are not in Iskcon. They have nothing to give up. They always remain outside.

 

[srila Maharaja then noticed a devotee in the audience who had received sannyasa from our Srila Prabhupada and who, after Prabhupada's disappearance, took babaji-vesa. He then commented:] "I have not seen any instance that a devotee who took sannyasa from Srila Prabhupada Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura has ever taken babaji-vesa. There is no example at all."

 

[The devotee in the dress of the babaji:] What about Krsna das Babaji?

 

[srila Maharaja:] Krsna dasa Babaji was not directly the sisya (disciple) of Srila Prabhupada Sarasvati Thakura. My Guru Maharaja never accepted him as a babaji. He always called him by his brahmacari name, Svadhikarananda Brahmacari. Krsna dasa Babaji had not previously accepted Srila Prabhupada as his sannyasa-guru. Also, he was not previously a sannyasa. He had been a brahmacari. There is no example in the entire history of Srila Prabhupada's sannyasis that anyone has given up his sannyasa dress and taken the dress of a babaji. The proper conceptions and principles of sannyasa is in line with the principles of Iskcon. We are Iskcon, and we will be Iskcon forever. One who is actually a member of Iskcon will never leave Iskcon, in this life or any future life.

 

[Devotee:] Srila Puri Maharaja gave some babaji-vesa.

 

[srila Maharaja:] We are not speaking about giving babaji-vesa. He never gave babaji- vesa to anyone who was previously given sannyasa. [it is offensive to one's sannyasa-guru if one gives up sannyasa and takes babaji-vesa from another person.] Our Guru Maharaja also gave babaji-vesa, and Srila Prabhupada Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura also gave babaji-vesa to some, but they never changed anyone from sannyasa to babaji. There is almost no difference between sannyasa and babaji, in the sense that the mantra of both is the same. The main difference is that the babaji is mostly a bhajananandi and the sannyasi is a gosthyanandi. Only those who don't know the principles of either can change their dress. We should not change. We should always be Iskcon. Don't try to be out of Iskcon.

 

I know hundreds of devotees who pretend to be the disciples of Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja, but they were not actually initiated by him, because they never followed him. [There are two kinds of initiation: formal initiation (anustanika-diksa), the fire sacrifice and the utterance of svaha and so on, and the other initiation is called vidvad-rudhi, which is internal, and it comes when the disciple actually follows the guru in the real sense. The formal initiation is also real, but only when vidvad-rudhi also occurs.]

 

Nowadays, the rtviks pretend that they are all disciples of Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja. They were never his disciples. If they are his disciples, why are they acting against him? Can we say that the rtviks are Iskcon? Never were they Iskcon, and never can they be, even after thousands of lives.

 

We should follow the words of Srila Swami Maharaja. What is his internal mood? It is the same as that of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. What is His internal mood? It is the same as that of Srila Rupa Gosvami, our guru-parampara, and Srila Prabhupada Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura. We in this world have forgotten Krsna, and we are deprived of Krsna's service. We are bahir-mukha, opposed to serving Krsna, and the only business of the guru-parampara is to bring us to Krsna's service. That is the internal mood of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

 

Krsna came to this world as Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. He is Parama-karuna and Rasika-sekhara. He is causelessly merciful, but somewhat 'weak,' and therefore He took the mood of Srimati Radhika to become stronger for preaching this mission. By the strength of Her moods, He was able to give krsna-prema even to trees, creepers, and animals, and He turned the moods of all kinds of living entities. It was amazing, however, that although Kala Krsnadasa was traveling with Him, He was not able to help him. This is because Kala Krsnadasa was only engaged in Mahaprabhu's external service. He did not inquire from Him about bhakti, neither did he have taste for His hari-katha, neither did he have a taste for chanting. In other words, he could not adopt Mahaprabhu's inner mood.

 

Similarly, your Prabhupada attracted everyone in just a couple of years and spread the holy names everywhere, but are the rtviks actually his disciples? A doubt comes. Are they actually following his principles? Actually, they are not qualified to say, "We are disciples of Prabhupada." They are actually against his teachings. Their interests are in collecting money and winning court cases, and some of them engage in smuggling.

 

They say that Srila Swami Maharaja was not omniscient. They question, "If he was omniscient, then why did he give sannyasa to so many who later fell down from the sannyasa order?" They say, "If he was omniscient, he would have known about the abuses in Gurukula, and that omniscience would have disqualified him from being a bona fide guru." Actually, Srila Swami Maharaja did give sannyasa to so many who returned to a material life of drinking, eating meat, and engaging in other sinful activities, and some of those who remained became rtvik.

 

Was your Prabhupada's mission successful or not? He himself has said, "If even one really follows me and hears me, then I'm successful." Hundreds and thousands may have come, but all are not following. So many of those who claim to be disciples of Prabhupada neither have faith in him nor in nama-bhajana. Rather, they have faith in universities and mayavada professors. Did Prabhupada tell anyone to learn from mayavadi professors? How can we accept them as Iskcon devotees? They have no faith in Iskcon and Iskcon principles.

 

[Now addressing a devotee who had given the previous speech, and had said that Srila Prabhupada had given nama-prema to everyone. Srila Maharaja continued:] "We cannot say that Prabhupada delivered so many (otherwise they would now be liberated souls), but even if one person follows, the mission is successful. You cannot say that he gave nama-prema to all. If that were the case, why have so many fallen? You should try to fully surrender, and try to realize his internal mood."

 

I have read in Bhagavad Gita (2.40):

 

nehabhikrama-naso 'sti

pratyavayo na vidyate

sv-alpam apy asya dharmasya

trayate mahato bhayat

 

["In this endeavor there is no loss or diminution, and a little advancement on this path can protect one from the most dangerous type of fear."]

 

This verse is true for one is not committing vaisnava-aparadha, sastra-aparadha or tadiyavastu-aparadha (aparadha to things and people in relationship to Krsna). If one actually accepts bhakti-yoga, then even if he dies before perfection, or even if he gives up practicing before he dies, there is no harm. He can continue practicing in his next life. Krsna will give preference to him, and from there he will begin.

 

prapya punya-krtam lokan

unitva sasvatih samah

sucinam srimatam gehe

yoga-bhrasto 'bhijayate

 

["The unsuccessful yogi, after many, many years of enjoyment on the planets of the pious living entities, is born into a family of righteous people, or into a family of rich aristocracy." (Bg 6.41)]

 

Also, in Srimad Bhagavatam it has been told:

 

tyaktva sva-dharmam caranambujam harer

bhajann apakvo 'tha patet tato yadi

yatra kva vabhadram abhud amusya kim

ko vartha apto 'bhajatam sva-dharmatah

 

["If someone gives up his occupational duties and works in Krsna consciousness and then falls down on account of not completing his work, what loss is there on his part? And what can one gain if one performs his material activities perfectly?" Or, as the Christians say, "What profiteth a man if he gains the whole world yet suffers the loss of his eternal soul?" (1.5.17)]

 

The navarshis said to Vyasadeva that if one performs his material duties perfectly and regularly, there is no true benefit. If he follows varnasrama-dharma perfectly, there is actually no spiritual gain. On the other hand, if one begins chanting the holy name, is initiated by a pure guru, and is trying to follow him, but he comes under the clutches of maya; as long as he does not commit offenses he has a chance for spiritual progress. What is the gain in varnasrama? Even if one performs his duty, still, the spiritual result is nil.

 

Srila Swami Maharaja's internal mood is the same as that of Caitanya Mahaprabhu and our guru-paramapara - to change the direction of the living entities' mood towards Krsna. This is the best mercy, and he endeavored throughout his life for this. In his last days he told me he was not satisfied, because he was remembering so many of his disciples who were not following him and not trying to be real Iskcon. He therefore ordered me, "Help my disciples and give me samadhi." He also told me, "I made some mistakes. Please ask my god-brothers to forgive me, because I preached to my disciples that they are not preaching." I replied to him, "You made no offense. It was your duty at that time. You said your god-brothers are not preaching. This was just to give your less intelligent neophyte disciples enthusiasm. You have not done a wrong thing. You spoke appropriately for the needs of your students at that time. Your internal desire was to turn their mood toward Krsna. Now you are seeing that they are offensive to your god-brothers, by saying they have not preached."

 

What is preaching? If one is 'preaching' and not following bhakti, then his activity is karma-marga (the path of fruitive activities). Where are the persons who were preaching all over the world? So many are not in Iskcon. Your Prabhupada therefore requested me to help them to become Iskcon in the real sense.

 

Don't follow the rtviks. They are not disciples of Prabhupada. They never actually served him in a real sense, and they are opposed to his teachings. You should try to realize what instructions Srila Swami Maharaja has given. He has never given anything other than the instructions of Srila Rupa Gosvami. He always followed Rupa Gosvami, and therefore he is a rupanuga-vaisnava. He wanted to very clearly give the path of rupanuga (manjari-bhava), but he first had to cut down the jungles of mayavada and atheism. Because he wanted to give this path, he requested me to help them. He could have given it then, but they were not ready at that time. He told me to help them so that they could become strong in bhakti; more strong than iron; as strong as thunderbolts. You should therefore preach your Prabhupada's real mission, Rupa Gosvami's mission, everywhere.

 

Only those who have had a high class of sadhu-sanga can realize his mission and his glories. Only a maha-bhagavata can understand another maha-bhagavata. You cannot realize this. You have heard from Srila Prabhupada Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura that Vamsidasa Babaji was a paramahamsa. Unless you heard it from Srila Sarasvati Thakura, how could you have understood? [Vamsidasa Babaji would, for example, keep fish bones in front of his hut, and sometimes he wouldn't dress his Deities. On other occasions he wouldn't follow Ekadasi, and sometimes he would offer tea and coffee to his Thakurji.] Prapujacarana Srila Bhakti Raksaka Sridhara Maharaja has also said about your Prabhupada that his power came from Sri Nityananda Prabhu, and therefore he is a saktyavesa-avatara. Who can realize this? Only one who is following him in the real sense.

 

I used to see him when he was singing Sad Gosvami-astakam and Gauranga Bolite Habe. He used to sing in a pathetic tune (filled with feelings of separation and longing for Krsna), with his voice choked up and tears in his eyes.

 

Gaura Premanande!

 

Transcribed by Srimati Vasanti devi dasi

Typed and edited by Srimati Radhika devi dasi

Ass't editor: Srimati Syamarani devi dasi

 

 

[Guest guest]

"There are so many ways one can attack ISKCON. The worst of all is to attack ISKCON by criticizing its leaders. We should be very, very careful not to criticize the leaders of ISKCON."

 

I thought this attitude ended with the Zonal Acarya era. But I guess it's been there all along. The Zonal Acarya era would not have ended if not for some brave souls who stood up and made their voices heard. And hundreds before them were pushed out before that ever came about (around 1985?) Srila Prabhupada said that if there is beaurocracy within his society, then everything will be finished. Kundali prabhu has written a nice series of books on this subject.

 

But what really bothers me about this quote from Bhakti Caru Swami is that he is saying that the worst attack against Iskcon is to criticize the leaders. This, despite so many years of neglect and abuse for Iskcon's women and children, even cows. Didn't Ghandi say something to the effect that one can judge a society about how it cares for the most vulnerable of its members? (Such as the animals, children, women, and the elderly.) Respect for the leaders will automatically be there when godly leadership is there. Command respect, don't demand respect.

 

Sure, management can be a "thankless task" as the Swami says. So can serving within the society for so many years and then being neglected, abused, or pushed out to fend for oneself.

 

I am sorry, but given the history, I don't like this attitude of placing all the burden of protecting Iskcon from "attack" upon the congregations and the members in general, while the leaders get a free pass to "police themselves", above reproach. That sounds like a symptom of beaurocracy to me.

 

 

Hiawatha

 

[Guest guest]

"ISKCON is not only Srila Prabhupada's creation, it is Srila Prabhupada's body"

 

I remember Srila Prabhupada saying that if ISKCON didn't work out, he'd simply leave it and chant japa. Well, he did leave his body earlier than expected, didn't he...? Kinda reminds me of Christian churches as "the body of Christ". Personally, I prefer a more transcendental reality.

[Guest guest]

 

I am sorry, but given the history, I don't like this attitude of placing all the burden of protecting Iskcon from "attack" upon the congregations and the members in general, while the leaders get a free pass to "police themselves", above reproach. That sounds like a symptom of beaurocracy to me.

 

 

Don't be sorry, prabhu, be strong instead. Become self-realized and a pure devotee yourself. That's the best we can do for Srila Prabhuda, ISKCON's leadership/congregations, and everyone else. Haribol! And I do mean HARIBOL!!!

[Guest guest]

Naturally, that is always good advice, albeit a bit judgemental, and a bit off-topic as well. But thanks nonetheless!

 

Hiawatha

 

[Guest guest]

 

...albeit a bit judgemental, and a bit off- topic as well...

 

 

Now I'm sorry! Certainly never meant to be judgemental, towards you at least, condescending/patronizing or anything perceivable as negative. As for "off topic", well lately my focus has become more and more basic. Over the decades, I've grown weary and impatient with certain topics, for better or worse. I genuinely believe we must somehow depend on the Holy Names alone and hope for the best. Maybe the storms will pass and I'll see the sun return again in this lifetime, or more likely not. In any case, I believe we're hooked -- it's all over but the reeling in! Best wishes, prabhu.

[gHari]

 

If the 'cult' gets in your way, then Krsna will destroy that hold on you, whether that means destroying the organization or destroying your position in the organization. Krsna will not let you continue to cheat yourself forever.

 

[Guest guest]

His Divine Grace is everything. As a friend of mine used to joke with the girls, "Sorry ladies, I'm spoken for."

[Guest guest]

BHaktivedanta Narayan Maharaj said:

[srila Maharaja:] Krsna dasa Babaji was not directly the sisya (disciple) of Srila Prabhupada Sarasvati Thakura. My Guru Maharaja never accepted him as a babaji. He always called him by his brahmacari name, Svadhikarananda Brahmacari. Krsna dasa Babaji had not previously accepted Srila Prabhupada as his sannyasa-guru. Also, he was not previously a sannyasa. He had been a brahmacari. There is no example in the entire history of Srila Prabhupada's sannyasis that anyone has given up his sannyasa dress and taken the dress of a babaji. The proper conceptions and principles of sannyasa is in line with the principles of Iskcon. We are Iskcon, and we will be Iskcon forever. One who is actually a member of Iskcon will never leave Iskcon, in this life or any future life.

 

------------------------

 

This is incorrect.

 

Bhakti Hriday Bon Maharaj took sannyasa from Srila Saraswati Thakur, and then later took Babaji vesha from a babaji.

 

Later, he came again began to wear his reddish coloured sannyasi clothing, and he became the Acharya of Chaitanya Math and the Gaudiya Math.

[krsna]

 

If the 'cult' gets in your way, then Krsna will destroy that hold on you, whether that means destroying the organization or destroying your position in the organization. Krsna will not let you continue to cheat yourself forever.

 

----------

 

That's exactly what happened to me.I was'destroying ' myself by following the cult organization ,or I was cheating myself by following blindly an unauthorized person in the name of Sri Guru and Gouranga.

All glories to Sri Krsna for saving me from a fate worst than death!

[Guest guest]

Thankyou for the kind words, prabhu. You are right of course, these issues have been hashed out for ages, and at some point we just have to...chant. What else is there?

 

I guess for some reason, yesterday, reading that quote, and having read Kundali prabhu's books, I just felt bad for the folks who are serving their best within the walls of Iskcon (the institution.) A rare relapse, you could say, as well as partial surprise that this kind of preaching is still going on (that the leaders are above reproach, and to criticize any of them, even with just cause, is the worst threat which Iskcon faces.)

 

But so many of us have argued these issues before, and at some point, as you suggested, we have to let go, and just chant, and leave the politicking to the politicians. As you rightly advised, the best thing I can do, as well as others, is to become strong, become pure.

 

Thankyou again for your kind words, as well as your super excellent advice to chant.

 

Hiawatha

[shambu]

I missed something in the replies to the original article of this thread, being the words of Bhakti Charu Swami, namely that whatever he said is 100% true from the philosophical and bhakti-siddhantic point of view. Only seen in the context of the present reality and recent history of the ISKCON-society it all sounds rather naive and simplistic. To blindly follow a bunch of blind leaders will inevitably make one end up in somekind of a ditch. Even if they are only half-blind, the risk of being misled is there. But the principle of not criticizing others, what to speak of authorities, is one of the backbones of spiritual life. The tendency to criticize and to be suspicious of others acts like a strong poison on the mind of any aspiring devotee, especially for mere beginners. That's just a fact. It's weakening and gives rise to a lack of humility and the tendency to speculate independently.

 

As soon as ISKCON is transformed into a full-fledged "democratic" society, it will have become part of the general battlefield of Kali Yuga, where everyone, no matter how crazy or deluded, will want to express his own opinion just to contribute to the general confusion. The recent appeal of "Gay Vaisnavas" for recognition (and the degree to which this appeal was taken seriously and got attention) is just another sign of this degradation. Why would Prabhupada consistently have referred to democracy as "demon-crazy" if he would have had even the slightest appreciation for it? Spiritual life is a descending process in all respects, which means accepting higher authority. But this acceptance can never be forced and must arise naturally - in other words, the so-called leaders and spiritual masters must demand this respect by BEING authorities and pure bhaktas, not by just claiming or pretending to be so. I think here lies the crux of the problem.

 

Another problem, however, may be that devotees grow up in a society where being harshly critical and sceptical has creeped in as being part of their culture, their society-trait so to speak. When this happens, this may hardly be reversable and will serve as an incurable ever-increasing disease that will weaken the society up to the point of its final demolition. This is the actual anti-pole of that society of fanatics where no criticism is heard, except for in the minds of its members, or wherein the followers' minds have become so numb and dumb by constant brainwash and blind adoration that the mind has lost it's power to discriminate properly. That society will also perish.

 

The concept of ISKCON (not the GBC per se) being Prabhupada's (or even Krsna's) body seems like a proper concept to me. I can remember this concept kept me going when I just started....

[Guest guest]

real and apparent.

[Guest guest]

Hiawathat quoted Carus Swami saying:

"There are so many ways one can attack ISKCON. The worst of all is to attack ISKCON by criticizing its leaders. We should be very, very careful not to criticize the leaders of ISKCON."

 

I thought this attitude ended with the Zonal Acarya era. But I guess it's been there all along. The Zonal Acarya era would not have ended if not for some brave souls who stood up and made their voices heard. And hundreds before them were pushed out before that ever came about (around 1985?)

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I agree with you, Hiawatha.

 

It is very strange that Bhakti Caru Swami is writing this sort of junk. Bhakti Caru Swami who spent so much time with Srila Sridhar Maharaj in the early 80's, but then when the split came made a choice to stay within ISKCON. A matter of personal choice - he did what he thought was best. But many others (including me) felt we didn't want to be part of ISKCON in that period. I live in Australia and the zonal acharya in Australia was Bhavananda who is.... gay. Lots of us knew that, and lots of us wanted to practice spiritual life in the association of a pure devotee, and we rejected any link we had with Bhavananda etc.

 

In a letter I received from Srila Prabhupada in 1976 he told me I didn't have to live within ISKCON or "the temple", as we used to call it, mostly. I was living outside and studying medicine. My choice. Like Bhakti Caru's choice, to do things as he feels is right.

 

ISKCON is not the whole of the "tree of Lord Caitanya". ISKCON, and Srila Prabhupada, are a branch of the tree, as Srila Prabhupada himself has said. ISKCON is certainly not the main trunk of the tree. It is just one branch. Srila Prabhupada himself says this in his CC commentary.

 

 

 

[Sunandaji]

we should forget all these politics and chant Hare Krishna...

 

My appraoch is the following now: when i see a person who is too much into politic or to fanatic i just say "ok i have to go now" and walk away... and i feel better since then.

[Guest guest]

Sunandaji. Whatever lesson we can learn from them can be had from a distance.

 

Some pratical concerns will arise in any organization, that can't be avoided. But the tendancy to become absorded in that talk strikes me as polished mundane gossip. It gets taken for Hari-katha itself.

 

vedabase.net

[Guest guest]

I'll try again. http://vedabase.net/

[Guest guest]

We have to remember that most believe they are serving Sri Guru and Gauranga, so before exiting I generally thank them respectfully. It also helps to always have one hand in my beadbag, so excusing myself due to unfinished rounds is an option few if any ever object to. Love that japa! Couldn't survive ISKCON temple association without it!

[Guest guest]

Where does Srila Prabhupada say that ISKCON is his body? I've asked Tripurari and others this question and no one has been able to answer. In Hawaii Srila Prabhupada was asked whether he was ISKCON and he replied that he was a MEMBER of ISKCON.

[Guest guest]

"If an institution interferes with your development of bhakti then burn the institution down." -- from an Indian Vaisnava guru

 

So for those the institution helps with their development of bhakti then let them stay and assist. For example for the people just stopped eating meat and just stopped drugging, it serves a purpose. For the homeless and hungry meat eating drug addicted persons then yes it is helpful for them.

 

So all glories anyone helping those souls.

 

However if the institution not helping you personally then just move on. Wipe the dust from your feet and move on as Jesus advised.

 

BTW the whole concept of ISKCON is the "body of whoever" came from Christian theology and Christianity. Prabhupada pretty much relied on Western people raised in Christianity to get his whole KC Movement going.

So the people he was instructing just knew Christian tattva and Christian concepts and Christian siddhanta.

 

Prabhupada was familiar with this Christian siddhanta having attended Scottish Churches College for his schooling. So he received a pretty heavy dose himself of Christian theology/ frame of reference/ world view. So it seems to me that he was just using this whole idea of "the body of" to enthuse and inspire neophyte devotees.

 

Even how Prabhupada presented siddhanta it seems to be basically to inspire and enliven people who were raised in Christian worldview, such as to say things like "the jiva fell from Vaikuntha" which would be analogous to "Adam and Eve" or "Adam and Steve" [as the case may be]'s "fall from the Garden of Eden".

 

Basically it seems to me that he was just trying to make a point for time, place, and circumstances in my opinion, based on the information I have today at this point in time. Seems as if he was trying to get his congregation "all fired up" and "enthusiastic" to "press on this Krsna Consciousness Movement."

 

However I think he was pretty cool guy because it seems very funny to me his droll appraisals at times of his sisya and the cryptic and sarcastic remarks he made to them. Such as "Krsna has only given me third class men, how am I supposed to do anything?", "You will become intelligent when you are eighty years old!!!!" [to a personal servant], and "The karmis are in maya? YOU are in maya!" [to a swami], etc.

 

So what, we are not supposed to criticise third class men? We are not suppsoed to criticise someone in maya? We are not supposed to correct someone who will become intelligent when they are eighty years old? Give

me a break. LOL

[Guest guest]

Prabhupada [peace be unto Him] pretty much said whatever to his disciples. I remember reading a letter written to Aniruddha Das that was dated +- the

late 1960s period of time in ISKCON. It was in regards to the standard in the kitchen of the Temple. At that time all the Temples pretty small and Prabhupada actually put this is writing:

 

"When will you mlecchas learn anything?" He proceeded to tell Aniruddha Das that after having been offered that prasada is NOT to EVER go back into a refrigerator AGAIN. This letter was posted on the kitchen wall of a Temple where Aniruddha was living and serving the last few years of his life.

 

So if Prabhupada called his disciples "mlecchas" then if it looks like a mleccha, smells like a mleccha, acts like a mleccha then it is a mleccha apparently according to Prabhupada. He didn't have any qualms at all about calling a spade a spade, so why should we?

 

If a person has risen above the quality of a mleccha then are they supposed to keep on taking instructions from a mleccha by dint of the person's deeds, activities, and consciousness? Of course I myself would probably not do what Prabhupada did; I would probably say, "Thank you for taking the time to instruct me. All glories to your service." and run in the opposite direction.

 

I probably wouldn't say out loud "Thank you for instructing me all right...for teaching me how NOT to act." I would just think it and avoid their company in the future if it was detrimental to my sanity and spiritual life.