ISKCON is not only Srila Prabhupada's creation, it is Srila Prabhupada's body

[Srimanta]

 

"If an institution interferes with your development of bhakti then burn the institution down." -- from an Indian Vaisnava guru

 

So for those the institution helps with their development of bhakti then let them stay and assist. For example for the people just stopped eating meat and just stopped drugging, it serves a purpose. For the homeless and hungry meat eating drug addicted persons then yes it is helpful for them.

 

So all glories anyone helping those souls.

 

However if the institution not helping you personally then just move on. Wipe the dust from your feet and move on as Jesus advised.

 

BTW the whole concept of ISKCON is the "body of whoever" came from Christian theology and Christianity. Prabhupada pretty much relied on Western people raised in Christianity to get his whole KC Movement going.

So the people he was instructing just knew Christian tattva and Christian concepts and Christian siddhanta.

 

Prabhupada was familiar with this Christian siddhanta having attended Scottish Churches College for his schooling. So he received a pretty heavy dose himself of Christian theology/ frame of reference/ world view. So it seems to me that he was just using this whole idea of "the body of" to enthuse and inspire neophyte devotees.

 

Even how Prabhupada presented siddhanta it seems to be basically to inspire and enliven people who were raised in Christian worldview, such as to say things like "the jiva fell from Vaikuntha" which would be analogous to "Adam and Eve" or "Adam and Steve" [as the case may be]'s "fall from the Garden of Eden".

 

Basically it seems to me that he was just trying to make a point for time, place, and circumstances in my opinion, based on the information I have today at this point in time. Seems as if he was trying to get his congregation "all fired up" and "enthusiastic" to "press on this Krsna Consciousness Movement."

 

However I think he was pretty cool guy because it seems very funny to me his droll appraisals at times of his sisya and the cryptic and sarcastic remarks he made to them. Such as "Krsna has only given me third class men, how am I supposed to do anything?", "You will become intelligent when you are eighty years old!!!!" [to a personal servant], and "The karmis are in maya? YOU are in maya!" [to a swami], etc.

 

So what, we are not supposed to criticise third class men? We are not suppsoed to criticise someone in maya? We are not supposed to correct someone who will become intelligent when they are eighty years old? Give

me a break. LOL

 

What is the use of one’s 80 years of life remaining Krsna conscious, if one can not make at least one person Krsna conscious?

A Krsna conscious person knows that many falling happens for a starter. But if one to achieve the highest goal of human life to know Krsna as supreme Godhead then He must get many chances even in one life. That's what Prabhupada wanted.

So why Prabhupada should be so much upset if many falls? Does Prabhupada not knowing this truth? Does Prabhupada was not aware that even 99.9999% will fail because Krsna conscious is hardest among all harder in spiritual life?

That's why I met Prabhupada and seen Him, He is very happy person for ISKCON. ISKCON is trying to change themselves which is always welcome sign. He knows that trouble will come but will go away only through mercy of Krsna. So why Prabhupada will be upset becoming so wise of Krsna?

[Bhakta Harry]

 

we should forget all these politics and chant Hare Krishna...

My appraoch is the following now: when i see a person who is too much into politic or to fanatic i just say "ok i have to go now" and walk away... and i feel better since then.[emph added]

 

What is common about this reply and ones similar, is that the focus is always on what seems is best for me, not what is best for Srila Prabhupada. Yet Srila Prabhupada tells us that:

 

 

“By satisfaction of the spiritual master, the Supreme Personality of Godhead becomes satisfied. And by not satisfying the spiritual master, there is no chance of being promoted to the plane of Krsna consciousness.” (BG, 2:41p)

 

“Satisfaction of the self-realized spiritual master is the secret of advancement in spiritual life.” (BG, 4:34p)

 

So therefore the correct mentality should be; what will satisfy Srila Prabhupada the most at this time?

 

Trying to save his mission from total failure, or seeing to my own personal comforts & safety?

[Guest guest]

I guess I would ask myself: WWPD What Would Prabhupada Do?

 

1. First I would see did Prabhupada get initiated by his guru the minute he met BSS or did he study his teacher for ten years first and allow his teacher to also examine him, as advocated by the Dalai Lama?

 

Check. Prabhupada waited ELEVEN years before he was initiated by BSS.

 

2. Then I would check and see if Prabhupada remained in his own guru's mission when things Prabhupada did not agree with were going on?

 

Check. Prabhupada did not remain within BSS mission, which if you apply the same logic would also have been "the body of BSS". He actually [gasp!] started a new mission with two of his friends.

 

3. Then I would check to see what Prabhupada's mission actually was, to make sure that with all of my body, mind, and heart throughout all of my life, I was always acting in such a way as to "save Prabhupada's mission from total failure".

 

Check. Prabhupada's mission was to help the soul develop pure Love of Godhead.

 

4. Then I would check to see if Prabhupada was being faithful to his own guru in starting his own mission with two of his friends, to make sure that Prabhupada's mission was not something new and was part of a parampara.

 

Check. Prabhupada's guru BSS wrote that religious institutions are dams that stop the living water of the flow of pure devotional service.

 

5. Then I would check and see if Prabhupada ever advocated not considering our own personal comfort and safety as part and parcel of executing his mission?

 

Check. In the story of Gajendra the elephant, Srila Prabhupada writes that we must be situated in an area of strength for us. SP says in his commentary on this story from Srimad Bhagavatam that the elephant lost and the crocodile won because the crocodile was situated in his element of water where he is the strongest.

 

Prabhupada goes on to say that all soldiers in this KC movement should thus keep themselves very fit and that will vary for each person according to their nature. Prabhupada did not say that the crocodile won because he was in a situation that was making him go crazy.

 

No. Prabhupada said that we MUST keep ourselves fit. Fitness in this context speaks to the concept of psychological fitness as well as physiological fitness and he says that it will be different for each person.

 

So check. By doing what is best and optimal for my psycho-social-physical-intellectual health, I will be keeping myself fit as a soldier in KC per SP's instructions in his Srimad Bhagavatam commentary on Gajendra the elephant.

 

6. When the institution that SP started with his two friends also went kablooey, did he stick around? NO. Cuz just think. If SP started an new institution with his two friends, then wouldn't that be SP's body also?

 

Actually SP told us to stay away from that organization. Stay away from his body of the institution that he started with two of his friends. So check. We can even leave the institution that can act as a dam and block the living waters of pure devotional service.

 

7. However did SP burn bridges? No. He set up a trust fund that all of teh temples in holy dhama will get some laxmi. And he wrote letters to his gurubhai asking them to join him and help him.

 

So check. Don't burn any bridges and engage with your gurubhai to the extent that it is amenable for both of you, if at all, and facillitates the mission of helping souls to attain pure love of God.

[Guest guest]

Because you are not in the same position as Srila Prabhupada?

 

 

He didn't have any qualms at all about calling a spade a spade, so why should we?

[Srimanta]

 

Because you are not in the same position as Srila Prabhupada?

 

True Vaisanava must not look position but loving relationship with Krsna

 

 

Prabhupada's guru BSS wrote that religious institutions are dams that stop the living water of the flow of pure devotional service.

 

 

A dam is temporary holding place of water. Otherwise you will face flood or draught.

 

Prabhupada served Krsna in loving relationship though it was in his very old age. Because of his love towards Krsna, Krsna remains under His control and even Lord Krsna himself wants to serve Prabhupada the way he served Him. That is the message Krsna had given through Bragavat Gita which is always true for any Krsna's devotee.

[Guest guest]

I agree with Sunandaji. That is the approach I will take as well. What will please the Spiritual Master the most ... our endeavor to fix ourselves first. People are not introduced to temples or institutions to fix the temple ... they're introduced so they can practice Krsna Consciousness and overcome their own anartas. Ultimately, that is what will putus on the path back Home.

 

I wonder where you get the idea that everyone is obliged to fight against institutional policies. 'To save his mission from total failure', as you put it, one must first become a pure devotee and that only comes by strict sadhana and not by wasting one's time revolting against the institution.

 

 

What is common about this reply and ones similar, is that the focus is always on what seems is best for me, not what is best for Srila Prabhupada. Yet Srila Prabhupada tells us that:

 

So therefore the correct mentality should be; what will satisfy Srila Prabhupada the most at this time?

 

Trying to save his mission from total failure, or seeing to my own personal comforts & safety?

[Bhakta Harry]

 

I agree with Sunandaji. That is the approach I will take as well. What will please the Spiritual Master the most ... our endeavor to fix ourselves first. People are not introduced to temples or institutions to fix the temple ... they're introduced so they can practice Krsna Consciousness and overcome their own anartas.

 

There are many reasons as to why people are introduced to temples or institutions. One of which you have mentioned above. However without the blessings of a bona-fide spiritual master it is very difficult to overcome our own anarthas.

 

 

Letter to: Satadhanya Calcutta 20 February, 1972

The key to success in spiritual life is to always endeavor to please the Spiritual Master, and follow his instructions.

 

Letter to: Joan Fields: Bhaktivedanta Manor 24 July, 1976

One should always be sincere to please the spiritual master by following his instructions, then life is very easy.

 

 

Ultimately, that is what will putus on the path back Home.

I wonder where you get the idea that everyone is obliged to fight against institutional policies.

 

Your question in relation to ISKCON; is such that some of these "institutional policies" are in direct conflict with the instructions of the founder of the institution. Those who are aware of this and who are sincere about pleasing the spiritual master by following his instructions have no option but to preach the truth of the situation to those concerned. This means fighting as Srila Prabhupada states:

 

 

Prabhupada: So preaching is always difficult. That I have repeatedly saying. You cannot take preaching very easy-going. Preaching must be fight. Do you mean to say fighting is easy thing? Fighting is not easy thing. Whenever there is fight, there is danger, there is responsibility. So preaching means... What is the preaching? Because people are ignorant, we have to enlighten them. That is preaching.[731212mw.la]

 

 

'To save his mission from total failure', as you put it, one must first become a pure devotee and that only comes by strict sadhana

 

Of course there are differing degrees of purity. Strict sadhana without the blessings of the guru will not give one purity. Sadhana involves chanting the holy names; one of the offenses in chanting the holy names is to disobey the orders of the guru. So how can one become pure by participating in the disobedience of the gurus order?

 

 

and not by wasting one's time revolting against the institution.

On the contrary; it is the institution which has become revolting.

[Guest guest]

Bhakta Harry,

 

You make some good points. But then, why not just practice K.Con in isolation (by isolation, I do nopt mean devoid of association. I mean outside the society)? That would make better sense to me. Just like Srila Prabhupada did not expend much effort trying to fix the Gaudiya matha. he went to Vrndavan and practised his sadhana there to perfection. And later, he started his own society. That way, one does not disrupt the efforts of others.

 

For example, the ritviks go around to different festivals organized by ISKCON and disrupt them by distributing nonsensical magazines. This is a huge dis-service and grossly offensive to the Lord. Instead, why can't they write nice philosophy glorifying the Lord in those magazines and distribute it to the general population?

 

 

There are many reasons as to why people are introduced to temples or institutions. One of which you have mentioned above. However without the blessings of a bona-fide spiritual master it is very difficult to overcome our own anarthas.

Your question in relation to ISKCON; is such that some of these "institutional policies" are in direct conflict with the instructions of the founder of the institution. Those who are aware of this and who are sincere about pleasing the spiritual master by following his instructions have no option but to preach the truth of the situation to those concerned. This means fighting as Srila Prabhupada states:

Of course there are differing degrees of purity. Strict sadhana without the blessings of the guru will not give one purity. Sadhana involves chanting the holy names; one of the offenses in chanting the holy names is to disobey the orders of the guru. So how can one become pure by participating in the disobedience of the gurus order?

 

On the contrary; it is the institution which has become revolting.

[Guest guest]

 

Bhakta Harry,

 

You make some good points. But then, why not just practice K.Con in isolation (by isolation, I do nopt mean devoid of association. I mean outside the society)? That would make better sense to me. Just like Srila Prabhupada did not expend much effort trying to fix the Gaudiya matha. he went to Vrndavan and practised his sadhana there to perfection. And later, he started his own society. That way, one does not disrupt the efforts of others.

 

For example, the ritviks go around to different festivals organized by ISKCON and disrupt them by distributing nonsensical magazines. This is a huge dis-service and grossly offensive to the Lord. Instead, why can't they write nice philosophy glorifying the Lord in those magazines and distribute it to the general population?

 

Dear Previous Guest,

 

I am really looking for a bonafide Guru who knows personally Krsna and can take me to realize Krsna out side of ISKCON. Please help me if you personally know some one fit.

 

But my first attempt should be top know how many of His devotees already realized Krsna. I also will want to know the whole tree of that KC movement which is totally new teaching altogether what Prabhupada had preached. Please recommend me such a bonafide KC Guru.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

If you can't see the sun, then there is no way you will see the small stars.

[Bhakta Harry]

 

Bhakta Harry,

 

You make some good points. But then, why not just practice K.Con in isolation (by isolation, I do nopt mean devoid of association. I mean outside the society)? That would make better sense to me. Just like Srila Prabhupada did not expend much effort trying to fix the Gaudiya matha. he went to Vrndavan and practised his sadhana there to perfection. And later, he started his own society.

 

It is true that Srila Prabhupada did not try and fix the Gaudiya Matha, but just formed his own new society called ISKCON. This analogy however fails due to one big difference - Srila Prabhupada is the Acarya (mahabhagavat), and therefore can set up his own society, as acaryas do - but we are not acaryas, only disciples, and therefore must simply try and work under the parameters given by Srila Prabhupada.

One of these parameters as given by Srila Prabhupada, shortly before he departed, was in relation specifically to the situation we find ourselves in now:

 

 

Bhavananda: There will be men, I know. There will be men who want to try and pose themselves as guru.

Tamala Krsna: That was going on many years ago. Your Godbrothers were thinking like that. Madhava Maharaja...

Bhavananda: Oh, yes. Oh, ready to jump.

Prabhupada: Very strong management required and vigilant observation.

(Room Conversation, May 27th, 1977)

 

Since many in ISKCON have decided to 'pose as Guru' and been 'ready to jump', the sincere devotees have been forced to provide the 'vigilant observation' through their writings, and also provide a 'strong management' by reviving a real ISKCON based on Srila Prabhupada's directives.

 

 

That way, one does not disrupt the efforts of others.

 

For example, the ritviks go around to different festivals organized by ISKCON and disrupt them by distributing nonsensical magazines.

 

Have you read these magazines? If so, be so kind as to post some examples of this alleged nonsense. That way we can all see who is the real nonsense.

 

 

This is a huge dis-service and grossly offensive to the Lord. Instead, why can't they write nice philosophy glorifying the Lord in those magazines and distribute it to the general population?

 

I'll let the editor of the magazine answer that point. This is from issue 7.

 

 

Most ironically, ISKCON itself already expends a great deal of effort glorifying Srila Prabhupada via various publications, videos, diaries and memorial festivals. One might ask how people who wish to usurp Srila Prabhupada can also find it within themselves to glorify him on a regular basis?

 

Srila Prabhupada is undoubtedly ISKCON’s biggest asset. His vast canon of teachings and outstanding personal example of purity and saintliness are what usually attract people to the Movement in the first place. Srila Prabhupada wrote all the books that shall form the basis of everything ISKCON will ever teach for up to ten thousand years hence. It is these books that explain the entire science of Krishna Consciousness, and inspire people to surrender their lives to Krishna. In effect, the Guru hoaxers have made a career out of basking in Srila Prabhupada’s reflected glory, using him to bolster their own competing mini-missions.

 

For these personalities, Srila Prabhupada is the ‘goose who always lays the golden eggs’. That is why they must keep telling people how great he is and promoting his books.

 

The Guru hoaxers use this glorification rather like an unscrupulous shopkeeper who puts an attractive item in his window to attract the customers, only to sell them a vastly inferior product once they set foot inside the store. This is called “bait-and-switch”. You draw people in with something wonderful, and then switch it for something cheap and nasty once you have them “hooked”. Newcomers to ISKCON are thus encouraged, “Look how wonderful Srila Prabhupada is, what a perfect spiritual master!”, and then when they join the ‘product’ is switched – “but you can only have him as your direct guide for the first six months, then you must choose someone else from the GBC-approved Guru list.” It sounds strange, but the fact is that if BTP only expanded on this “glorification” it would actually be doing the greatest disservice.

We would simply be assisting in the process of drawing people into the Guru hoaxers’ trap.

 

Just as a doctor who prescribes medicine without warning of possible side-effects would be acting unprofessionally, as devotees it is completely irresponsible to attract people to Srila Prabhupada’s Movement without telling them anything about what has gone wrong.

 

ISKCON may appear to be teaching Krishna Consciousness, but the formula has been changed. Srila Prabhupada’s final order on how initiations were to run has been disobeyed, and this one act of defiance is causing untold harm to everyone involved.

 

Thus the aim of BTP is to:

Prevent new devotees from accepting unauthorised replacements for Srila Prabhupada.

Expose those who are “glorifying” Srila Prabhupada simply as a means of expanding their own little empires.

Encourage devotees to work together to return to the correct, winning formula, as originally ordered by Srila Prabhupada in his institutional directive of July 9th 1977.

In this way we hope to one day put an end to the bait-and-switch scam that has been going on since November 14th 1977.

[Guest guest]

I can understand that the ritviks have some concerns about what is going on within ISKCON but why do they also blaspheme great Vaisnavas outside of ISKCON as well?

 

 

 

It is true that Srila Prabhupada did not try and fix the Gaudiya Matha, but just formed his own new society called ISKCON. This analogy however fails due to one big difference - Srila Prabhupada is the Acarya (mahabhagavat), and therefore can set up his own society, as acaryas do - but we are not acaryas, only disciples, and therefore must simply try and work under the parameters given by Srila Prabhupada.

One of these parameters as given by Srila Prabhupada, shortly before he departed, was in relation specifically to the situation we find ourselves in now:

 

 

 

Since many in ISKCON have decided to 'pose as Guru' and been 'ready to jump', the sincere devotees have been forced to provide the 'vigilant observation' through their writings, and also provide a 'strong management' by reviving a real ISKCON based on Srila Prabhupada's directives.

 

 

 

Have you read these magazines? If so, be so kind as to post some examples of this alleged nonsense. That way we can all see who is the real nonsense.

 

 

 

I'll let the editor of the magazine answer that point. This is from issue 7.

[Guest guest]

There are many bonafide Gurus within ISKCON but since you want someone from outside as your Guru, you may want to approach someone in the Gaudiya matha or connected to Gaudiya matha. There are many exalted and great Gurus there as well.

 

 

Dear Previous Guest,

 

I am really looking for a bonafide Guru who knows personally Krsna and can take me to realize Krsna out side of ISKCON. Please help me if you personally know some one fit.

 

But my first attempt should be top know how many of His devotees already realized Krsna. I also will want to know the whole tree of that KC movement which is totally new teaching altogether what Prabhupada had preached. Please recommend me such a bonafide KC Guru.

[Guest guest]

 

I can understand that the ritviks have some concerns about what is going on within ISKCON but why do they also blaspheme great Vaisnavas outside of ISKCON as well?

 

They have to. It is one of the pillars of their philosophy. They know that senior Gaudiya Math Acaryas and Sadhus reject ritvik-vada. They know that if one is intelligent enough to consult Guru, Sastra, Sadhu, that ritvik-vada will not pass the litmus-test. Thus, they have to portray the Sadhus as being unqualified. Iskcon issued a formal apology (however weak) to SSM back in the 80's, and also passed a resolution in the 90's that no one is to criticize SSM. But the ritviks continue with the anti-GM rhetoric to this day. It is intrinsic within their agenda. It's inseparable. Ritvik-vada cannot be established unless the followers believe that Srila Prabhupada is "the only way", and that there is no need of sanga or siksha outside the institutional walls of Iskcon.

[Guest guest]

Thanks JJ. Makes sense now.

 

I think the ritviks aren't doing themselves any favors materially (spritually of course, I think they're just shooting themselves in the foot). By materially, I mean if someone reads their propaganda, it's plain to see that they think the whole Vaisnava community is corrupt except the members of their group. How is that possible? You could have a few that are corrupt but to claim that anyone outside of their line of thinking is misled, that is just plain absurd!

 

 

They have to. It is one of the pillars of their philosophy. They know that senior Gaudiya Math Acaryas and Sadhus reject ritvik-vada. They know that if one is intelligent enough to consult Guru, Sastra, Sadhu, that ritvik-vada will not pass the litmus-test. Thus, they have to portray the Sadhus as being unqualified. Iskcon issued a formal apology (however weak) to SSM back in the 80's, and also passed a resolution in the 90's that no one is to criticize SSM. But the ritviks continue with the anti-GM rhetoric to this day. It is intrinsic within their agenda. It's inseparable. Ritvik-vada cannot be established unless the followers believe that Srila Prabhupada is "the only way", and that there is no need of sanga or siksha outside the institutional walls of Iskcon.

[Guest guest]

Thanks JJ. Makes sense now.

 

I think the ritviks aren't doing themselves any favors materially (spritually of course, I think they're just shooting themselves in the foot). By materially, I mean if someone reads their propaganda, it's plain to see that they think the whole Vaisnava community is corrupt except the members of their group. How is that possible? You could have a few that are corrupt but to claim that anyone outside of their line of thinking is misled, that is just plain absurd! They have lost a lot of credibility.

 

 

They have to. It is one of the pillars of their philosophy. They know that senior Gaudiya Math Acaryas and Sadhus reject ritvik-vada. They know that if one is intelligent enough to consult Guru, Sastra, Sadhu, that ritvik-vada will not pass the litmus-test. Thus, they have to portray the Sadhus as being unqualified. Iskcon issued a formal apology (however weak) to SSM back in the 80's, and also passed a resolution in the 90's that no one is to criticize SSM. But the ritviks continue with the anti-GM rhetoric to this day. It is intrinsic within their agenda. It's inseparable. Ritvik-vada cannot be established unless the followers believe that Srila Prabhupada is "the only way", and that there is no need of sanga or siksha outside the institutional walls of Iskcon.

[Bhakta Harry]

 

I can understand that the ritviks have some concerns about what is going on within ISKCON but why do they also blaspheme great Vaisnavas outside of ISKCON as well?

 

It is a fact that there have been many active pedophiles in ISKCON. So are we to proclaim that everyone in ISKCON is a pedophile?

Similarly there may be some who adhere to the ritvik conclusions who blaspheme "great Vaisnavas outside of ISKCON". Are we acting truthfully to suggest that they all do?

 

If you can be more specific by supplying details of any alleged blasphemy then we can discuss on that basis.

 

[Bhakta Harry]

 

They have to. It is one of the pillars of their philosophy. They know that senior Gaudiya Math Acaryas and Sadhus reject ritvik-vada. They know that if one is intelligent enough to consult Guru, Sastra, Sadhu, that ritvik-vada will not pass the litmus-test.

 

Srila Prabhupada is a bona-fide guru and he advised some of his disciples as follows....

 

 

Room Conversation July 19th 1977, Vrndavan

 

Tamal Krsna Goswami: Upendra and I could see it far last... (break)

Srila Prabhupada: And nobody is going to disturb you there. Make your own field and continue to be ritvik and act on my charge. People are becoming sympathetic there. The place is very nice.

 

 

Thus, they have to portray the Sadhus as being unqualified.

 

Who are these unqualified sadhus?

 

 

Iskcon issued a formal apology (however weak) to SSM back in the 80's, and also passed a resolution in the 90's that no one is to criticize SSM. But the ritviks continue with the anti-GM rhetoric to this day.

 

This is of course another misinformed ant-ritvik diatribe from the GM propaganda machine.

 

 

It is intrinsic within their agenda. It's inseparable. Ritvik-vada cannot be established unless the followers believe that Srila Prabhupada is "the only way",

 

Srila Prabhupada himself said that he was "THE acarya of the present Gaudiya-sampradaya." So why blame the ritviks?

 

 

Srila Prabhupada:"In Bengali and in English. Which may not touch there, but we write in our own way that "By the order of his guru he went to America. Then he..." That's a fact. What is the fact, that should be written. Give the list of the books and so on, so on.

Tamala Krsna: List of the temples.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes, temples. And "He is the acarya of the present Gaudiya-sampradaya."

(Conversation, 19th January, 1976)

 

 

and that there is no need of sanga or siksha outside the institutional walls of Iskcon.

 

Well that statement would be correct, if ISKCON was not so corrupt.