“Krishna is Not God”

[krsna]

An excerpt from

 

Chapter Twelve

 

Uddhava Meets

Nanda Maharaja

 

by

Sri Srimad Gour Govinda Swami

 

“Krishna is Not God”

 

“Oh Uddhava, you have discussed bhagavata-tattva before me. I don’t know sastra, but I have heard from sadhus and I have this faith that there is one Bhagavan and He is the guru and controller of the universe. He is the mula-karana, the original cause of purusa and prakrti, the living entities and material nature. He is anadi, beginningless. That Bhagavan is sarvesvara, the supreme controller. I know that Bhagavan is Narayan. He is present in our house in the form of salagrama. Uddhava, because you are a mere boy you have said that Narayan is our Gopal Krishna. I excuse you. I have not read sastra, but I have heard from the mouths of mahatmas that Narayan is God, the Supreme Lord. I know to some extent what symptoms are there in Narayan. But those symptoms are not even a single drop with Krishna. How can you say my Gopal Krishna is Narayan? I excuse you because you are a boy. You don’t know what you speak. You have said that Narayan is the cause of all causes, the cause of the whole universe. But my Krishna is a simple, milk-fed child. Narayan is pure. Narayan is peaceful, Narayan is apapa-vidha, sinless. But my Krishna is very fickle, greedy, and angry. Where is the symptom of Narayan in Krishna? Narayan is pure and free from contamination, suddha-sattva-guna-maya. My Krishna is a thief and a liar, abhimani. Narayan is the shelter of the whole world, but my Krishna is dependent on us. Where is the symptom of Narayan in my Krishna? Uddhava, what shall I say? There is no sadrsya, similarity of Narayan to my son Gopal. Narayan is satya-sankalpa, truthful, but my Krishna is very expert in speaking lies. I have heard that Narayan is apta-kama, self-satisfied. He never needs anything. He is beyond hunger and thirst. But I have seen with my own eyes how my Gopal Krishna cries when He becomes hungry. He becomes restless when He is hungry and thirsty. Uddhava, Narayan is worshipable by everyone, but I have seen my Gopal carrying my wooden sandals on His head. Where is the similarity with Narayan? I may commit a mistake, but Bhagavan never commits a mistake. If Krishna is Bhagavan, how can He commit a mistake? If Krishna is Bhagavan, why will He call us baba and ma, father and mother? You say He has no baba, and ma. Krishna is always dependent on us. He feels completely asahaya, helpless, when He cannot get our help. Where is the symptom of Narayan in Krishna, in my Gopal? You are a boy, Uddhava. You are a boy. You have no intelligence at all. In your intelligence you are also a boy. Therefore I excuse you. I have never seen such symptoms in Krishna. It is a fact that by the unlimited mercy of Narayan we have gotten a son like Krishna. I know very well that Krishna is our son. This is the very, very deep-rooted feeling in my heart, Uddhava. Uddhava, how can you say it is not true?

[Tuls]

If Krishna is not the God, than the whole Bhagavad-Gita doesn’t have any value. Why would the greatest personalities, learned scholars, and holy saints worship Bhagavad-Gita if it only contains the words of the ordinary person? Srila Prabhupada often explained that Krishna covers His intimate associates with His spiritual energy Yogamaya to make them to forget His real identity (Yogamaya is totaly different from the material energy Mahamaya, who keeps us, conditioned souls, under the spell of illusion). Otherwise, if they think of Him as the God they will treat Him with too much reverence. In this way Krishna and His associates will not be able to share the intimate pastimes. If devotee wants to have relationships with God as his/her helpless child, Krishna reciprocates to such a sentiment and give this devotee an opportunity to do so. Just like Nanda Maharaja and mother Yashoda are given the opportunity to take care of Krishna, feed Krishna, and put Him to sleep every night. They will not be able to do so if they thought Him to be the God, they would be in too much awe.

[krsna]

Krs means "repetition of birth," and na means "one who checks." Our repetition of birth can be checked only by God. No one can check his repetition of birth and death without the causeless mercy of God.

 

Raja Vidya

 

ps.Dear Tuls,

read the post again,

you seem to have missed the point altogether.

Hari Hari

[Guest guest]

The point that Gour Govinda Maharaja introduces is quite clear. In the material world when we say God, we mean the Supreme Being who controls everything, checks our “repetition of birth....”. This fits the description of Lord Narayana (Lord Vishnu). Krishna’s only business is to enjoy loving pastimes with His devotees. Technically He doesn’t execute control over living entities like Lord Narayana does, and for Nanda Maharaja, Krishna is not God but his beloved child. This is the causeless mercy of the Supreme Lord that He presents Himself to His devotee in the way devotee wants to see Him. However, for us, conditioned souls, Krishna is the source of all other avatars, and as a matter of fact, the source of everything that exists. I don’t have a slightest problem with Gour Govinda Maharaja’s description. I have a problem with the way you named your post. If you have spent a good amount of time in India as I did, you probably know that Krishna is not widely excepted as a Supreme Lord. Especially in South India, Krishna considered to be an incarnation of Lord Vishnu, and Lord Vishnu is considered to be a Supreme source of everything. However, in reality, Krishna is the original cause of all causes, which confirmed by Lord Brahma himself in Brahma Samhita. So, when you name your post in this way “Krishna is not God“, you can expect that someone will see it and will not understand it the way it supposed to be understood.Prabhupada was always very careful to present transcendental knowledge in the very clear way, so there won’t be any room for speculations.

 

[Tuls]

This last post was from me. I didn't Login, so it didn't show my User Name.

[krsna]

Harinama: Holy Name of the Lord

 

 

Based on the Harinama-cintamani by Bhaktivinoda Thakura, chapters 1-2

 

Karma, jnana and yoga ineffective in Kali-yuga

The holy name is both the means and the end

The spiritual identity of the holy name

Two kinds of the holy name

Three levels of chanting

The pure name and namabhasa: different results

Vyavadhana or 'disruption' causes offense (aparadha)

Overcoming namabhasa and attaining prema

Only the faithful are eligible to chant the omnipotent holy name

 

Types of prayers

 

Karma, jnana and yoga ineffective in Kali-yuga

 

The Satya-yuga sages who took up the process of meditation were personally purified by Krsna and given the treasure of devotional service. In the Treta-yuga, the same spiritual success crowned those who flawlessly performed opulent sacrifices to satisfy the Lord. In the Dvapara-yuga, He granted devotion to those who adhered to the path of perfect Deity worship. With the advent of the present age, Kali-yuga, Lord Krsna saw the dreadful condition of the jivas (living beings) and relinquished all hope in the processes of karma, jnana and yoga. People in the Kali-yuga are short-lived, always harassed by disease, and are born with a weak body and mind. The observance of varnasrama-dharma and the cultivation of sankhya philosophy, yoga, and empiricism will not yield the strength humanity needs to redeem itself.

 

Indirect devotional paths of jnana and karma are intended to lead one to the shrine of devotional service through either the association of saintly persons during philosophical discussions, or by the ritualistic offering to the Supreme Lord of the results of work performed without desire but in Kali-yuga both paths have become contaminated. Genuine saintly persons, now rarely seen, have been displaced by crass, commercial pseudo-spiritualists. Religious duties are no longer performed for purifying the consciousness but for enjoyment of the material results of the rituals. Therefore these secondary paths are no longer beneficial.

 

The Lord, considering the jivas' welfare, descended in Kali-yuga along with His holy name to propagate the yuga-dharma (the religion of the age). By taking up the yuga-dharma the jiva attains love of Krsna: he has only to remember the Supreme Lord's name (nama-smarana or japa) and chant the Lord's name congregationally (nama-sankirtana).

 

The holy name is both the means and the end

 

The only method or means (sadhana) in this age is the holy name of the Lord. The only goal (sadhya) to be attained in this age is Krsna-prema (love of Krsna). Even in the stage of perfection, the name is not given up but is chanted all the more, for it is intrinsic to the activities of prema. Indeed, the name is not different from the Lord: it is the very embodiment of prema. If the means is the end, then the end and the means never contradict one another. If process is identical to the objective, then it is easy for the jivas to attain the desired goal of life, Krsna-prema. By the mercy of His holy name, Krsna easily delivers the jivas in the age of Kali.

 

The spiritual identity of the holy name

 

Lord Krsna and His holy name are not different; They are the one and same Absolute Truth who is the all-pervading yet supremely independent form of dynamic spirituality (caitanya vigraha), fully cognizant and full of bliss, without beginning or end. Eternally free of material imperfection (nitya mukta), always situated in pure goodness (suddha sattva), the holy name, identical (abhinna) with He who is denoted by the name (the nami, or Krsna), descends to this world as the complete incarnation of the highest sweetness (rasa).

 

Two kinds of the holy name

 

The holy name can be categorized in two types: principal and secondary. By taking shelter of Krsna's principal names, the jiva obtains the real boon of spiritual life. The holy names of the Lord that describe His transcendental pastimes and which contain all of the Lord's spiritual excellences are defined as principal names. They are, for example: Govinda, Gopala, Rama, Sri Nandanandana, Radhanatha, Hari, Yasomati Pranadhana, Madana-Mohana, Syamasundara, Madhava, Gopinatha, Vrajagopala, Raksala, Yadava, and so on. Anyone who chants the names of the Lord that depict His eternal pastimes can attain the Lord's supreme abode.

 

The Vedas address the Lord with names that describe His affiliation with His material energy. These are His secondary names, e.g. Creator, Supersoul, Brahman, maintainer and annihilator of the world, Yajnesvara, Hara, etc. Such names of the Lord are invoked by those pursuing fruitive activities and empirical knowledge. In keeping with the Vedic directions, the chanting of such names of the Lord will result in piety and salvation. However, Krsna-prema, the most perfect result of chanting the holy name of the Lord, is attained only by saintly souls who invoke Krsna's principal names.

 

Three levels of chanting

 

1. Chanting with offenses (aparadha) 2. Chanting in the clearing stage (namabhasa) 3. Chanting of the pure name (suddha-nama)

 

The pure name and namabhasa: different results

 

If the holy name is chanted just once, though impurely so, or if the sound is simply heard, then the living entity regardless of his high or low caste is immediately liberated. This is the declaration of scripture. And furthermore, when the holy name is chanted in the clearing stage (namabhasa Ä the stage when impurities are swept from the heart of the chanter), then the highest goal is attained after some delay.

 

All other auspicious pious results including liberation can be quite easily achieved in namabhasa, but the attainment of love of Godhead is suspended for a while until the jiva reaches the summit of chanting the pure name or suddha-nama. In namabhasa, sin and unwanted desires in the heart are eventually dissipated; thereafter the devotee chants purely. Suddha-nama offers the devotee the highest spiritual success, love of Krsna.

 

Vyavadhana or 'disruption' causes offense (aparadha)

 

Chanting should be free from any form of disruption because this will result in offenses against the holy name, which in turn pose an insurmountable obstacle on the path to success. Vyavadhana or 'disruption' is of two kinds.

 

The first type is known as varna-vyavadhana or disruption in the syllables. For example, in the Bengali word 'hathikari', 'ha' and the last syllable 'ri' can be put together to form 'Hari', a name of Krsna. But because the syllables 'thi-ka' are inserted in the middle, the repetition of 'hathikari' will not give actual benefit. Yet the Arabic word 'haram' is not perverted by such disruption of the syllables or varna-vyavadhana. The syllables comprising the holy name 'Ram' are uninterrupted; hence, speaking the word 'haram' gives liberation because it is namabhasa.

 

The second type of vyavadhana is called tattva-vyavadhana or disruption of philosophical conclusions. This offense is much more serious. Lord Krsna's name and Lord Krsna Himself are non-different. But someone who is polluted by Mayavadi philosophy imagines them to be separate. Such an offensive conclusion is clearly against all Vedic teachings and will totally destroy one's spiritual life. It is impossible to obtain Krsna-prema from such chanting. In summary, one should understand properly that the holy name is identical to the Lord Himself. The principal names of Krsna should be chanted as suddha-nama, devoid of namabhasa and the aparadha of vyavadhana. The person who takes these considerations to heart and chants suddha-nama even once is considered a Vaisnava. He is to be served with faith and devotion.

 

Overcoming namabhasa and attaining prema

 

Anyone wanting to attain the highest spiritual success of chanting purely must approach a bonafide spiritual master and serve him carefully and sincerely. He must become free from deceit, join Lord Krsna's family of devotees and continuously chant the holy name. He should accept everything favorable for devotional service and at the same time reject unfavorable things. He should seek out the association of devotees and utilize his life in service to the Lord's holy name and the Vaisnavas. He should forgo all other religious practices and pious activities and never worship any other devata. Nor should he think anything to be independent from Krsna.

 

Gradually, as all the anarthas or unwanted desires in the heart are destroyed, the transcendental name of Krsna appears and dances on the tongue of the devotee. The holy name, now nectarean in taste, cannot but be relished by the devotee at every moment. Thus spiritually intoxicated, the devotee always feels like dancing. As the holy name dances, the devotee likewise dances, and at that moment the ecstasy of love of Godhead also enters dancing into the devotee's heart. Then the entire world will dance and maya will flee away.

 

Only the faithful are eligible to chant the omnipotent holy name

 

The Supreme Lord has infused His transcendental name with all of His potencies and offered it to humanity. One who has sufficient faith in Lord Krsna's name is eligible to chant, and only one who chants the name is properly executing the prescribed duties of the human being. He is called an adhikari or possessor of the holy name.

 

The holy name is so potent that chanting does not depend on conditions of time, place, rules, cleanliness, and so on. Pious activities, such as the giving of charity, the performance of sacrifices, the taking of ablutions, or the recitation of Vedic mantras are all regulated by stringent rules. But for the chanting of the holy name, the only prerequisite is faith. One who takes shelter of the holy name with unflinching faith will attain all perfection.

 

 

--

 

Types of prayers

 

(from Gaudiya Vaisnava Abhidhana)

 

1. Samprarthanatmika - direct prayer glorifying the Lord. We have many examples of this type of prayer in Narottama Dasa's Prarthana.

 

2. Svadhainyabodhika - expressing humility and embarrassment, informing the Lord: I am very fallen.

 

3. Manah-siksa - examples are Bhajahu Re Mana by Govinda das or Manah-siksa by Raghunatha das Gosvami. In this type of prayer the mind becomes a disciple and we teach it how to deal with the senses and relate to intelligence. We consider the mind a separate entity and tell it: Pull yourself together! Meditate on Krsna! The challenging spirit of intelligence becomes manifest. One function of the intelligence is to challenge the mind.

 

4. Vilapatmika - statements of supreme lamentation. This may be confusing; we hear the devotees are always happy, so how can a devotee lament? But this kind of lamentation is a type of devotional ecstasy - it draws a devotee closer to Krsna.

 

5. Vaisnava Mahimaprakasika - revealing the greatness of the Vaisnavas. Krsna doesn't want to be considered separately from the Vaisnavas, therefore we can please Him by glorifying them.

 

6. Sri-Guru-Vaisnava-vijnapti-rupa - statements of submission and glorification of the Vaisnavas, especially of the guru. The example is Bhaktivinoda Thakura's Ohe! Vaisnava Thakura.

 

7. Sridhama-vase-lipsatmika - expressing the desire to live in the holy places. There are many prayers of this kind, composed by Prabodhananda Sarasvati, glorifying Sri Vrndavana. In one of them he says: Anyone who desires to leave Vrndavana I consider to be a madman.

 

8. Sadhaka-dehe-lalasa-sucika - expressing the desire to practice devotional service.

 

9. Siddha-dehe-lalasamayi - desire to attain siddha-deha and serve Krsna in this spiritual body.

 

10. Aksepabodhika - lamentation again: extreme grief and sorrow that we have fallen to this material world.

 

We can see that out of the ten types of prayers listed, three express feeling "bad." So these feelings are not useless. They can be incorporated into devotional service. We shouldn't think: First let me become a pure devotee, free from all lamentation, no problems - then I can come before the Lord and offer nice prayers. No. A pure devotee feels his deficiency so he comes before the Lord and prays.

 

 

[Tuls]

Is this as Pankaja Dasa said another click/paste answer?

 

[Pankaja_Dasa]

 

 

Yes talks means forum. Not just click and pastes. We need to see what realisation a devotee has, anybody can paste its simple. You see like Prabhupada didn't only present Gita for us he also gave amazing purports. We need purports!!

[Pankaja_Dasa]

 

 

Can I have this on file?

 

pankaja_dasa@

 

Would look good on my site about harinama.

 

Nice paste by the way, Oh when will I achieve Reflection of Holy name when OH when!

[Guest guest]

All of our Vedic scriptures explians us about the GOD. Whether HE is a RAMA, KRISHNA or anyone Like Govind, Venkateswara. We can't understand all of these easily becos of our KARMA. THAT'S the reason Sri MahaVishu came like Rama and explain How to live like a human.He explained all of our Human_dharma to everyone. There is a close relation given in the Story for anybodies Samsara. Even though, we didn't understand. So, HE wants to explain us to again in his DIRECTWAY.THEN, he born like a KRISHNA and told 'I AM THE GOD'. I WILL BE WITH YOU ALWAYS. IF YOU ARE NOT BELIEVING ME THEN THIS IS THE PROFF. SHOWN HIS BODY TO Nara (Arjuna). He told him then you can admire me as a GURU, OR A FATHER, OR A MITRA, OR ANY OTHER WAY. Then, i will be with you like that. HE is given many proffs in his_this KARANA JANMA, 'KRISHNA'. Even though, you are not beleiving him liKe a GOD, means anyone can say YOU ARE A MURKHA. Try to see Krishna's story in different angle and i'm sure you CAN UNDERSTAND, HE IS THE GOD.

[krsna]

k

[krsna]

The Treasure of Bhakti

by

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura

 

 

 

"This form of Bhakti is fit to be cultured. Being duly cultured it gives rise to Rati (the natural tendency of the soul towards Krsna, or the basic principal of Love). Condensed Rati is Prema. By the process of gradual augmentation Prema becomes Sneha, Mana, Pranaya, Anuraga, Bhava and Mahabhava. A good analogy is furnished by the series of processes in the refining of raw juice of sugarcane. First there is juice, then molasses, raw sugar, residual sugar, refined sugar, white sugar and icing sugar. These are varieties of the basic principle (Sthayibhava) in the operations of the mellow liquid (Rasa) of the Service of Krsna. If the basic principle is conjoined with higher principles known as Vaibhava, Anubhava, Satvika and Vyabhachari then the operations of the liquid mellow of the service of Krsna exhibits the most exquisite nectarean taste. Just as the treatment of curd with sugar, ghee, pepper and camphor produces a most tasty composition."