Why do some devotees say that "ritvik" is bogus, when I read ....

[Guest guest]

That Prabhupada gave instructions to the movement to use the system of Ritvik, if even just for a temporary time?

 

How can anything that Prabhupada endorces be also bogus?

 

I am not saying that "ritvik" is right, just wondering why they say its bogus and Prabhupada used it, authorized it?

 

Was it Ok in the past and then became bogus when Prabhupada left? And if so where does Prabhupada say that when he leaves this should be called bogus?

 

Please do not hate me for saying the word "ritvik", I am just trying to sort out my future. And I have lost nearly all my trust in the leaders of Iskcon.

[Pankaja_Dasa]

 

 

This whole thread may/not be deleted so..

 

From your post you sound VERY confuced, so right now I would not make any rash conclutions at all. If you read the Final Order without the extensive and overblown intrepretation given by Ritivk Scoler. Then you will see it is clear enough what Prabhupada wanted and indeed desired. We are all His Divine Graces debtors. Repay it.

[theist]

It's all in Prabhupada's books. Why waste time on a letter or conversation that can been as having two different meanings?

 

Trust in precendence. This whole issue is really blown way out of proportion.

 

Just concentrate on realizing the conclusions of Prabhupada's teaching. People will just give you their own conclusions which will be on the various sides of the issue and partial truths and you will remain confused in the end.

 

Please read the statements below.

[Kulapavana]

you need to look at our Gaudiya sampradaya tradition to understand this issue. ritvik or not, acceptance of guru is a must for all serious devotees. a guru must teach surrender to Krishna in accordance with the shastric siddhanta. do not be confused by the extremists on both sides of this issue - read Prabhupada's books and with time it will all be clear.

[Pankaja_Dasa]

 

If you would like to see qualifications of Ritviks goto their site, and watch and learn how they speak. I used to talk to one when I first came to KC. One of the things he said was this:

 

Goto Iskcon Temple see the Deity BUT Don't converse WITH THE vaishnavas...

 

He was saying basically we should not mix with them. Maybe I should have become a spy;) I don't class them as devotees at all. But I tolerate. Haribol

 

[Guest guest]

Haribol. Indeed, rtvik is the word that causes war of rhetoric. I did the rtvik debate for over seven years, but will not go there, other than to say that if any guru "system" was created by Srila Prabhupada, such a system would be fully covered in his masterpiece literature. But "system" is not there, despite the wishes of those who want a system to replace guru.

 

There are thousands of quotes from archives of letters and directives the rtvik will provide, and thousands of quotes from those who want to discredit such speculations. But we must ask why there is so much unclarity in the issue when the very name, "SRILA PRABHUPADA", is synonymous with total clarity. We do not have a way to verify how this word, rtvik, was used by Srila Prabhupada. We have seen that the word was first uttered by Ramaswara Swami in the so-called May 28, 1977 GBC meeting. Not only has forensic experts determined that the recording of this meeting has been tampered with, we cannot determine if such a meeting even took place.

 

We cannot accept such a change and departure from Srila Prabhupadas literature based on tampered with and fragmentary evidence. I have compassion for those who have done such ,massive endeavor on the issue, but I will not stake my spiritual life on a so-called "diksa guru-system" that is not at all covered in Srila Prabhupada's literature.

 

Lord Sesa Balarama is the Supreme Controller of Guru Tattwa. Unlike the infamous Romaraharsana, Srila Prabhupada completely submits to the authority of Lord Balarama. He (Srila Prabhupada) is not in anxiety about how Lord Balarama controls guru tattwa. He performs his duty as empowered representative of Lord Balarama, without adjusting, changing, creating anything, and He has said this over and over again. He presents as what has been given to him, as it is, without overhauling, without creating something to fit the times.

 

One may be disgusted with the society that bears the name of ISKCON, but this does not affect the Tattwa of guru tattwa. Srila Prabhupada gives us all we need to become serious in our desire to remember our constitutional position as loving servant of the servant of the Supreme Lord. Becoming serious activates our ability to be directed by Lord Balarama to someone advanced enough to help us. A guru can demonstrate Krsna Consciousness to us, a guru may teach us the intracacies of sadhana bhakti yoga, and a guru may formally link us up to a bonafide sampradaya of krsna consciousness. All three gurus are direct and empowered representatives of Lord Balarama, and they may all be the same person, or they may be three distinct individuals. Submission to Krsna means taking direction from His guidance within, no one can come to Krsna without such guidance.

 

My recommendation is that we chant the hare krsna mahamantra. It tastes like poison in the beginning, but it is the medicine we need for our diseased condition of forgetfulness of our swarupa (constitutional position as servant of the Supreme Lord). It becomes sweeter as the disease leaves us, then we will be more apt to recognize the advancement in others in the degree needed to find who our guide may be.

 

Hare Krsna, no rtvik rebuttal appreciated here, with all due respect. ys, mahaksadasa

[Pankaja_Dasa]

 

 

For me it's about trust. I don't trust them at all. I can't see what benefit there is from them. Better even not be a devotee maybe.

 

I also don't really see the benefit of going over this debate. You made some very nice points.

 

Become a Guru Today YES! YOU TOO CAN BE A 'PROXY' all you need to do is sign declaration that you will Blasphmeme all Guru's in Iskcon henceforth. No payement needed this will come later...