Question

[theist]

The soul is said to be indivisible and eternally existing.

 

So how do we take the Brahman effulgence?

 

Some say we you merge there your individuality is eternally lost. Even some so-called bhakta's teach this. But is this true? If the above is true then how could it be?

 

Is the bramajyoti really unlimited points of unawakened light that always retains it's individuality even if so-called merged?

 

Know the answer? Wondering?

 

Share here.

[Guest guest]

The commentaries to Brahma Samhita deal with this matter in detail.

 

By the way, in ISKCON the devotees say that the edition published by the Gaudiya Math was translated by Srila Bhakti Siddhanta Sarswati Thakur, when in fact he only wrote something in the introduction. The translation was by Sri Nishikanta Sannyal, and the commentaries are a summary of Bhaktivinode/Jiva Goswami.

 

The verses are very clear on this point - Jivas are manifest from the rays of the body of Vishnu. When they are absorbed in samadhi, meditating on satchitananda brahman, they have no sense of individual ego or individuality. But then they become covered by ahankara and enter material life.

 

-m.

 

[theist]

I always thought it was all wiritten by His Grace Sarasvati. That is a surprise. I have always found those purports very hard for me.

 

While accepting your answer,the question was a little different.

 

Please add more.

[Avinash]

Some also say that you are always in Brahmjyoti. It is just that you do not realize it. What is known as merging into Brahmjyoti is really having this realization. Since no actual change happens in Brahmjyoti, its identity is preserved.

[theist]

 

 

 

[theist]

apparently there was another post after Avinash but it would come up on my screen. This occasionally happens. Maybe i'll be able to see it next time I log in.

[krsna]

SRILA PRABHUPADA ON OUR ORIGINAL POSITION

 

 

Here are excerpts from two letters the Srila Prabhupada sent to Upendra prabhu regarding our 'original position'.

 

One letter is from 1968 and one from 1969:

 

"Regarding your question, in one sense both you and Mahapurusa are right. The fact is that after the dissolution of the Universe the living entities remain in slumber within Maha Visnu, and again when the creation takes place they are impregnated in their original position and they come out in different species of life. By gradual evolutionary process, when they come to the human form there is good chance of getting out of the repeated birth and death, and one can enter into the Spiritual Realm. But if one loses this chance he is again put into the cycle of birth and death. The conditioned souls are always within the Maha Visnu Form, whereas the liberated souls in Vaikuntha, they are engaged in the service of the Lord. Constitutionally every living entity, even if he is in the Vaikuntha Loka, has chance of falling down.

 

Therefore the living entity is called marginal energy. But when the falldown has taken place for the conditioned soul is very difficult to ascertain. Therefore two classes are designated: eternally liberated and eternally conditioned. But for arguments sake, a living entity being marginal energy, he can't be eternally conditioned. The Time is so unlimited that the conditioned souls appear to be eternally so, but from the philosophical view he cannot be eternally conditioned. Since we cannot trace out when we have become conditioned, there is no use of arguing on this point. Better to take care first how we can get rid of this conditional existence; as much as a patient should take care for treating his disease more, and less waste his time in finding out the cause of his disease.

Please offer my blessings to the others. I hope this will meet you in good health."

 

A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

 

[krsna]

jiva

Illuminations on Jiva-tattva

 

10-Gaudiya acaryas support the no-fall siddhanta.

 

We have heard the siddhanta that no one falls from the spiritual world personally from many many highly exaulted Gaudiya Vaisnava acaryas, in addition to our own Guru Maharaja, Srila A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada [the conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world: Bhag. 3.16.26 purp], such as Srila Sridhara Maharaja, recognized by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura as sastra-nipuna (scriptural genious), Srila Bhakti Promod Puri Maharaja, chief editor of the daily spiritual newspaper Nadiya Prakasa during and after the time of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta, Srila Bhakti Vallabh Tirtha Maharaja, the successor acarya of Shri Chaitanya Gaudiya Matha of Madhava Maharaja, Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja, a leading disciple of Bhakti Prajñana Kesava Maharaja, the sannyasa guru of Srila Prabhupada, and many others. And they are repeating what they learned from their Guru Maharaja, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura and his direct disciples. It is highly unlikely that they would say something different than that which was taught to them by their Guru Maharaja. These aforementioned Vaisnavas are seniormost in terms of their realizations and spiritual standing, so their knowledge and realization should not be completely disregarded. Additionally, our dear godbrother, the late Gour Govinda Maharaja, was highly learned in siddhanta and scrutinizingly studied the commentaries of our acaryas, especially Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura. He was known for his firm stand with the "No Fall" siddhanta. And we have living examples of godbrothers fixed in strong philosophical understanding in Sripad B. G. Narasingha Maharaja and Sripad B. V. Tripurari Maharaja. Here we do not see one iota of doubt as to the siddhanta.

 

Because Srila Prabhupada did make statements in support of both sides of this issue, it is very confusing to many of his disciples. A preaching strategy does however eliminate all contradictions and is not at all out of line with Srila Prabhupada's mood. Many examples of a preaching strategy by Srila Prabhupada can be found, as shown in section eight above. Many verses in this presentation were collected by disciples of Gour Govinda Maharaja in their concern to set matters straight.

 

Srila Bhakti Promod Puri Goswami Maharaja, seniormost Gaudiya Vaishnava on the planet, both by age and spiritual assets, has provided detailed and substantial explanations of the no-fall siddhanta.

 

Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta Narayan Maharaja has written in Pinnacle of Devotion, page 15,

 

Being in Krsna's association, any spiritual being, whether kayavyuha, (expansion), sadhana-siddha, or nitya-siddha, will never, never, never take a material body in this world. They will never be opposed to Krsna. Because there is no maya in Goloka Vrndavana they can never forget Krsna. Only Yogamaya is there, helping the devotees to increase their prema for Krsna by arranging an opportunity for them to serve Him. Because there is no chance of falling from Goloka Vrndavana, siddha bhumi, no conditioned soul has ever come from there. Rather, they have come from the tatastha line, from Karanodakasayi Visnu.

 

Srila Bhakti Vallabh Tirtha Maharaja, the successor acarya of Shri Chaitanya Gaudiya Matha of Bhakti Dayita Madhava Maharaja, did not hesitate to state: "No." [The residents of the spiritual world do not fall down.] "It is very clearly written that the source of the jivas is the tatastha-sakti."

 

Srila Prabhupada writes similarly,

 

According to Visnu Purana, Bhagavad-gita and all other Vedic literatures, the living entities are generated from the tatastha energy of the Lord, and thus they are always the energy of the Lord and are not the energetic. (Bhag. 3.7.9, purp.) [see also section four]

 

Visvambhara Goswami, the late and highly respected Radha-ramana goswami, [Vrndavana, India] stated with much astonishment:

 

They (Iskcon devotees) think like that? That the Lord's eternal associates fall from the spiritual world? I cannot believe it.

 

The entire Gaudiya mission of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura is not in doubt as to the conclusions in this regard, having heard it from their Founder-acarya. Nor are the many many scholars in doubt, who have stated that certain devotees do not even know their own siddhanta. We think that this should be taken as an indication that perhaps the forcibly legislated conclusions of these few devotees may be wrong.

 

We also present herein the statements of prominent acaryas and other authorities from sampradayas outside of our own Gaudiya sampradaya, who all clearly and emphatically state that the jivas of this material world have never been in the spiritual world—have not fallen from lila with the Lord:

 

Sri Pejwara Swami of Pejwara Mutt, Udupi (Renowned acarya of Madhva sampradaya):

 

The siddhanta is clear. How can there be any misunderstanding; to think that the Lord's associates have fallen?

 

Laksmi Tathachar, Director, Academy of Sanskrit Research, Melkote, Karnartaka, (respected member of Ramanuja sampradaya)

 

It is not possible that those associating with Lord Visnu in Vaikuntha could ever fall down.

 

More statements are forthcoming. We invite our readers to submit substantiatable statements of prominent spiritual authorities. Use the comments submission form. Devotees are quick to point out the necessity of trnad api sunicena to others, but sometimes hesitate to admit their own frailities or mistakes. We humbly suggest that a mistake has been made in regards to understanding the actual Gaudiya siddhanta and we are deeply disturbed that it has made some of our senior godbrothers look very foolish in the eyes of so many sincere Vaisnavas and scholars. Let us not forget that even Krsna does not understand Himself fully. (SP Room Conv. London: Aug. 17, 1971)

 

 

 

[Kulapavana]

"Some say we (when?) you merge there your individuality is eternally lost"

 

the individuality is lost there in the practical sense (no individual activity is manifested). still, brahmajyoti is corpuscular in nature.

 

as to "eternally" - that is possible for some souls (those who chose to stay there eternally). and mind you: eternality is an OPEN ended concept and you also eternally have a free choice to remain there or change position

[Pankaja_Dasa]

 

 

 

 

TRANSLATION

 

The Lord replied: O brahmanas, know that the punishment you inflicted on them was originally ordained by Me, and therefore they will fall to a birth in a demoniac family. But they will be firmly united with Me in thought through mental concentration intensified by anger, and they will return to My presence shortly.

 

PURPORT

 

The Lord stated that the punishment inflicted by the sages upon the doorkeepers Jaya and Vijaya was conceived by the Lord Himself. Without the Lord's sanction, nothing can happen. It is to be understood that there was a plan in the cursing of the Lord's devotees in Vaikuntha, and His plan is explained by many stalwart authorities. The Lord sometimes desires to fight. The fighting spirit also exists in the Supreme Lord, otherwise how could fighting be manifested at all? Because the Lord is the source of everything, anger and fighting are also inherent in His personality. When He desires to fight with someone, He has to find an enemy, but in the Vaikuntha world there is no enemy because everyone is engaged fully in His service. Therefore He sometimes comes to the material world as an incarnation in order to manifest His fighting spirit.

 

In Bhagavad-gita (4.8) also it is said that the Lord appears just to give protection to the devotees and to annihilate the nondevotees. The nondevotees are found in the material world, not in the spiritual world; therefore, when the Lord wants to fight, He has to come to this world. But who will fight with the Supreme Lord? No one is able to fight with Him! Therefore, because the Lord's pastimes in the material world are always performed with His associates, not with others, He has to find some devotee who will play the part of an enemy. In Bhagavad-gita the Lord says to Arjuna, "My dear Arjuna, both you and I have appeared many, many times in this material world, but you have forgotten, whereas I remember." Thus Jaya and Vijaya were selected by the Lord to fight with Him in the material world, and that was the reason the sages came to see Him and accidentally the doorkeepers were cursed. It was the Lord's desire to send them to the material world, not perpetually, but for some time. Therefore, just as on a theatrical stage someone takes the part of enemy to the proprietor of the stage, although the play is for a short time and there is no permanent enmity between the servant and the proprietor, so the sura janas (devotees) were cursed by the sages to go to the asura jana, or atheistic families. That a devotee should come into an atheistic family is surprising, but it is simply a show. After finishing their mock fighting, both the devotee and the Lord are again associated in the spiritual planets. That is very explicitly explained here. The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. But sometimes, as the Lord desires, devotees come into this material world as preachers or as atheists. In each case we must understand that there is a plan of the Lord. Lord Buddha, for example, was an incarnation, yet he preached atheism: "There is no God." But actually there was a plan behind this, as explained in the Bhagavatam.

__ http://srimadbhagavatam.com/3/16/26/en1

 

 

[krsna]

"Having attained me [sarupa], a friend more dear than life, as if He had not seen me for a long time, taking my hand in His lotus hand, asking me wonderful questions, bringing happiness to all the people of Vraja, and walking as gracefully as an elephant, the handsome Lord entered the village of Vraja."

(Brhad-bhagavatamrta 2.6.76, by Sanatana Goswami)

 

"After attaining Me, the great souls, who are yogis in devotion, never return to this temporary world, which is full of miseries, because they have attained the highest perfection."

(BG 8.15)