When the acarya disappears, a dark period comes ..............

[krsna]

 

PREACHING, SANNYASA AND INSTITUTIONS

 

Sri Srimad Gour Govinda Swami Maharaja

 

When the acarya disappears, a dark period comes, just as a patch of black cloud covers up the effulgent sun. It is an unfortunate time, but it is temporary. That cloud will go away. A vio-lent storm may come and disperse the cloud, and then the effulgent sun will come out. If you trace out history, you will find that after the dis-appearance of an acarya, this period comes. That period came after the disappearance of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta. Then his disciple Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami appeared like the effulgent sun. After his disappearance, a dark period has come. The sun is there. It is only cov-ered by a temporary black cloud. It will be dispersed, and then the effulgent sun will come.

 

Mahaprabhu was doing acarya-lila — preaching. After the disappearance of Mahaprabhu, the Goswamis came. They were not preachers. They were bhajan -anandis. They just stayed in the jungle of Vrindavan and wrote books. They were ordered to do four things: a) Write bhakti sastras, scriptures speaking the science of bhakti; b) Excavate the lost tirthas such as Shyama- kund and Radha-kund; c) Install deities, con-struct temples for the deities, and teach the pro-cess of deity worship; and d) Teach vaisnava etiquette — Sanatan Goswami wrote Hari- bhakti-vilasa, wherein he quotes many sastras describing vaisnava etiquette.

They were doing these four things. They were not preaching, but they were prepar-ing the preachers. Scriptures are needed for that. Otherwise, what will a preacher speak? We quote authority from sastra. In Caitanya- caritamrita (madhya 22.65), Chaitanya Mahaprabhu spoke the definition of uttama- adhikara to Sanatan Goswami:

 

— He is very proficient in presenting sastric conclusions, siddhantas. By presenting them strongly, he defeats bogus philosophies and establishes pure bhakti-siddhanta. He is very strong in tattva. He is drdha — he has unshakable, strong faith.

[Pankaja_Dasa]

 

My Gurudeva is non-different from Krishna. Guru is one.

 

So I don't see any difference so much in Him and in Srila Prabhupada. As in all have different purposes.

 

For me personally I am just thanking Prabhupada each time I read His Bhagavatam. All I hear is my gurudevas intructions to chant. He said in lectures {which I consider personal instructions to me} to chant. So everything I am trying to do this. With all my might.

 

I see from your post Maharaja clearly says when Archarya leaves things get a bit bad. As we can well see. Gtg HB

[Vanguard]

When Srila Prabhupad (Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaj AND Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur) left the world, both ISKCON and Gaudiya Math had big problems. I've heard people (senior devotees with positions of authority) from other missions state emphatically and proudly that once their acharya is gone, their mission will prevail since they have learned from the mistakes of ISKCON and Gaudiya Math. But these problems are inevitable. In fact, Krsna Himself arranges it to be so, to separate the wheat from the chaff -- to weed out those with institutional krpa or even self krpa, as opposed to those with Guru krpa.

[Kulapavana]

yes, it is true, when a great acharya departs, a dark period follows for a while. that is becuse a great acharya is like a beacon of light in this dark Kali-yuga. when he departs, the darkness comes back and we are more aware of it than ever before. but there is still enough light out there from good, sincere devotees who are still here, and we can easily find our way out of this world.

[Guest guest]

What is the definition for a senior devotee. One who is is ISKON for a long time or one who is really spiritually matured. While its true that maturity comes by age for some people, but for some how much ever they keep chanting on one side they dont seem to have really matured spiritually to the extent of guiding anyone.

 

So whats the actual definition for the word senior in spirituality. Age or realization? People like Jesus, Sankara lived only for 32 years of age physically but does age matter in judging one's spirituality. A really renounced person will not hesitate to take any good word from an other younger person by age since he has no ego on himself while an immatured senior by age consider youngster as who are they to question me or who am I to listen to them.

 

So where is the scale. One of my acquaintances who is having a guru practicing in ISKON KC for the past 25 years and when this person known to me came to a Narayana temple other than ISKON krishna temple, he was heavily critized by his guru saying that Narayana is ok, but you cant go to an Hindu temple since Krishna is the superior and not Narayana.

 

I dont even know how to laugh when I heard this, Is there any use practiciing when you dont really realise anything. Who is senior in this case. The guru or the sishya.

Thanks

Sorry this is a major problem in ISKON hence would like to remain anonymous. But would appreciate any discussion and comments.

[gopidust]

When the gopis and radharani were looking for krishna one time in the forest of vrndavana krishna took the form of narayana to fool them. The gopis seeing narayana simply offered their respects but continued looking for the two armed form of krishna. Devotees in Iskcon have no time for visiting the temples of the demigods or even expansions of Krishna we want to worship Krishna in Vrndavana.

[Guest guest]

One of my acquaintances who is having a guru practicing in ISKON KC for the past 25 years and when this person known to me came to a Narayana temple other than ISKON krishna temple, he was heavily critized by his guru saying that Narayana is ok, but you cant go to an Hindu temple since Krishna is the superior and not Narayana...

 

if it is an occasional visit or a pilgrimage the "guru" us obviously wrong and immature...but.... if i consider my main center of worship the hindu temple and no more the gaudya vaishnava temple with his necessary focusing on mahamantra and radha-krsna worship, i am in maya and guru is right in chastizing me

 

so i can go in hindu temples and i have the duty to prostrate and offer prayers to the lord and devatas, but i am not a hindu, i am a gaudya vaishnava, and my main worship is harinama

 

so the situation has to be examinated carefully

 

(of course maturity and time of belonging to a religious organization are not necessarily proportional)

[Guest guest]

Who can recognize Guru in the heart of His disciple. The BONAFIDE disciples of A bonafide spiritual master are of the same quality, even though quantity can certainly be measured.

 

In other words, Srila Prabhupada never agrees to be a brass deity confined to a temple, he is never bound by an organization, he is ever present in the heart of the disciple, and continues delivering the sleepers through the via medium of such faithful disciples, within or outside of the preaching apparatus he creates.

 

How many gurus does ISKCON have? 30, 100, I dont really follow. But these are folks who are available, folks who will initiate disciples. These folks have been approved by srila prabhupadas governing body. But guru tattwa still holds sway, the disciple still hears and decides on the basis of such hearing to surrender accordingly. Krsna within does all of this, and if you get a guru who causes you to go away from krsna, this is what krsna does, causes forgetfulness.

 

I am certain that bonafide gurus exist within the framework of the ISKCON structure, and also agree that bonafide gurus exist outside of that structure as well. But Chaita guru is in charge of connecting guru and disciple, at all times, and never is such a transcendental activity interfered with by those who possess even a fraction of sanity.

 

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

[Guest guest]

Yes Gopis were fooled by their maya in them and hence they could not see that Narayana Shri Hari in Krishna and hence they were still searching for their boy friend Krishna in human form.

 

HOnestly I am shocked to read this post where Narayana is mentioned as a demigod. I only wish ISKON does not become another christianity in the hands of converted people in course of time since their level of understanding is different but call them selves as follower of Madwa Philosophy. Swami Prabupaadaa's book is my Gita too, but He has not mentioned anywhere this kind of confusion, probably you people are not able to understand Swamiji's work due to the lack of Indian background among you people out of which you people confuse others.

I request replies from ISKONs devotees who are born and brought up in India and who knows the Sanatana Dharma better. No offense to americans, but may be administrator of the site can reply to me. If he is not Indian brought up kindly excuse me.

I request from real Madhwa follower. I request like this primarily because this is not argument to put anyone down, but to make people understand what Swamiji tried to say.

 

[Guest guest]

Yes its true the dark period of confusion is prevailing in ISKON in their understandings of Swami Prabupaada's work.

Hare Krishna

[Guest guest]

Naradha Muni was chanting Narayana Narayana all the time, does it mean that Great saint was chanting the name of Demi God. He used to address Shri Krishna HImself as Narayana. So did Shri Krishna became demi God at that time?

 

When both Duryodhana and Arjuna went to see Shri Krishna to ask for HIS favor, Krishna asked both of them what they want. Foolish Duryodhana asked Him for material benefit of Narayana army (refering to Krishna's troop of army) while Arjuna said to Shri Krishna that he does not want the army, but he wants that Narayana to drive his chariot. So does it mean arjuna had misunderstanding.

Narayana, Shri Hari, ShriKrishna are one and the same and one who call these names differing from Shri Krishna and refuse to see, they are actually not understanding Shri Krishna properly.

 

There are 108 Divyadesams of Shri Hari Naryana temples of which 106 are distributed all over India except one which is in Nepal(in those days nepal was also Bharat). 107 is Thiruparkadal and 108 is Srivaikuntam that one can reach only after leaving this physical body after skipping the reincarnation cycle of rebirth.

Shri Andal and Meera who were the ardent devotees of Shri Hari, and married Him spiritually were calling Shri Krishna as Narayana, gopla, Govinda. So is Narayana the demi God as per ISKON?

Do you all mean to say this Shri Hari Narayana is different from the Radhi Krishna of ISKON.

sorry guys..you are all in ignorance and actually missing the real treasures of India due to your onesided horse view.

 

While sanskrit was the spoken language of those days in ancient India, all the vedic literature and vedic mode of worship in Narayana temples are in sanskrit. Since none of the western languages coincide with the pronunciation of sanskrit, Swami Prabupaada felt that the westerners could struggle in learning all the sanskrit mantras with proper pronunciation which needs specific training of the language. Also its dangerous to pronunce them wrongly. So to avoid that anyway just saying " Krishna" or Narayana Narayana like Naradha Muni itself holds everythhing and so Swamiji said keep chanting Hare Krishna mahamanthra regularly. But Swamiji did not deny vedic worship at all. Neither he said Shri Hari Narayana as Demigod different or lower form of Shri Krishna.

 

Well....you guys need another Prabupaadaji from India.....

[Guest guest]

Haribol. It is not birth in india that makes the vaisnava, it is the advancement alone that gives one understanding of sanatana dharma.

 

It is a fact that Srila Prabhupada does not at all minimize Lord Narayana, in fact, just the opposite. He has continually warned his disciples of trying to understand Krsna's position without understanding the glories of the supreme lord. Thus, although he gave us the Krsna Book, to attract us, he still warns of the dangers of jumping to the tenth canto without full devotional service, spontaneous love of God.

 

Krswnas pastimes are full of wonder, and are also full of krsnas yogamaya. Srimati Radharanis pastime of searching for Krsna and not having time for Lord Narayana is influenced by yogamaya. Cheap imitators pretend they are gopis, therefore, we see folks who still have not given up the bodily conce3ption minimizing the importance of Lord Narayana. They think that vatsalya rasa is not good, only wanting madurya rasa. This is not prabhupadas teachings, this is pretence brought about by immaturity.

 

However, place of birth is not the reason. Babies are babies because they are babies, not to be troubled because they happen to be babies. Maturity comes when one Really sees god dancing on his tongue when chanting his name, not by just mechanically uttering the name.

 

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

[Pankaja_Dasa]

 

gopidust

Devotees in Iskcon have no time for visiting the temples of the demigods or even expansions of Krishna we want to worship Krishna in Vrndavana.

 

There are Sri Narayana temples from the different sampradaya (of which there are 4). Bona-fide. Not all Sampradayas worship Krishna in 2 handed-form. When the Gopis say Lord Narayana they are not in servitute mood, so also they were looking for Krsna. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[Guest guest]

Krsna Stu Bhagavan Swayam. Throughout all the vedas Krsna is mentioned as supreme. Nowhere it is stated that Narayan or visnu is supreme. Dont concoct your words into Srila Prabhupads Philosophy.

 

Hare Krsna.

[krsna]

Such a person is an uttama-adhikari. Only such an adhikari vaisnava can deliver the whole world — taraye samsara.

The Six Goswamis were preparing preachers. Jiva Goswami sent his three students, Shyamananda Thakur, Narottam Das Thakur, and Srinivas Acharya with books and told them, “Go and preach!” These three elevated vaisnavas went to preach. Shyamananda Thakur came to Orissa. Narottam Das Thakur went to the eastern side, to Manipur and Assam, etc. And Srinivas Acharya preached in Bengal. They are the first preachers who came after the disappearance of Mahaprabhu.

Then came Bhaktivinode Thakur. Gaura Kishor Das Babaji and Jagannath Das Babaji were not preachers. They were bhajananandis. Only Bhaktivinode Thakur came out, that is acarya. After Bhaktivinode Thakur came, then successively Bhaktivinode’s son Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur came, and then Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada.

Bhaktisiddhanta had many sannyasi disciples. Also, Mahaprabhu had predicted,

 

prite ache yata nagaradi grama

sarvatra pracara haibe mora nama

 

My name and teachings will be spread to all corners of the world.

Still, after the disappearance of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta a black period was there.

So who fulfilled Mahaprabhu’s prediction? Bhaktivinode Thakur started. Because India was blindly following the West, he thought that the books and teachings of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu should be presented in English‚ and that this science should be taught in the Western world. He was very disappointed that although this samskrti, culture, is here in India, Indians are blindly following Western civi-lization, dog civilization. Bhaktivinode Thakur is mahajana, acarya. He had the transcendental vision that Mahaprabhu’s teachings should be presented to the Western world in English, and then, when the Western people would accept it, the Indians’ eyes would be opened.

Bhaktivinode Thakur also predicted that a very powerful son would be born who would fulfill this desire, who would preach and spread Mahaprabhu’s teachings in the West and throughout the world. His son, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati, was born. He was a very powerful vaisnava. From his very birth he was a brahmacari, and he was very strong, very powerful. He did not go to the West, but he prepared some of his sannyasi disciples to go and preach. He sent Bhaktipradip Tirtha and Bon Maharaja, but they could not achieve success.

My guru-maharaja, Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, was just a grhastha. He was not a sannyasi. He was not living in the asrama. He had always been a grhastha. But he got the real mercy of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta, Thakur Bhaktivinode, and Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. He was empowered, because he was a true follower. He did not twist the teachings. He did not add any deliberation to them. He followed them “as it is”. Then he preached in English throughout the world. In their first meeting, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta told him to preach in the West. He could understand, “The person has now come to me who can do it.”

Our Srila Prabhupada was a young man at that time. After the disappearance of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta, all of his sannyasi disciples fought with each other. There was a case before the Supreme Court. They were quarreling like dogs for a piece of bone.

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta had set up sixty-four temples. In the court case they were all divided. This matha went to this person, and this matha went to another. So many, many divisions. It was a black period. There was no strong acarya. And now, after the disappearance of Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, a similar period has come. Quarreling and fighting is also going on now in Prabhupada’s society. So many have lost faith and left. Some of them became karmis and are doing other business. So many of the gurus, the pillars of the society, fell down! Again, this is a dark period. In any case, Mahaprabhu’s movement will never be lost. The day will come when the black patch of clouds will be dispersed and the effulgent sun will come out. Prabhupada has said the day will come when the acarya will appear.

 

 

Devotee: How have previous acaryas been recognized by the vaisnavas?

 

Gour Govinda Swami: By their potency, their effulgence, and their proficiency. How they present facts. They have been recognized by their clarity, their quoting of authority, defeating bogus philosophies, establishing pure siddhanta, and attracting many people, making many persons vaisnavas. That is the proof. Krishna is all attractive. It is said that in the material world Krishna attracts the jivas in two forms: in the form of His holy name and in form of the acarya — nama-rupe, acarya-rupe.

[gHari]

The correspondence of the first and second world wars with the leaving of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura and Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saravati.

 

[krsna]

WWIII ???

[Kulapavana]

"Is there any use practiciing when you dont really realise anything. Who is senior in this case. The guru or the sishya."

 

the guru was most likely right on several levels:

 

1. as a representative of the Gaudiya sampradaya, he has the obligation to develop his disciples into devotees of Krishna in Vrindaban - this is a particular mood of devotion, and visiting just any Hindu temple does little good for a neophyte devotee in this respect.

 

2. if a disciple accepts his guru seriously, he must practice submission and humility to the will of his spiritual master. this submission needs to be tested at times. a serious disciple will follow an order even if he may not fully understand it's reasoning. a flake will simply rebel in such situation.

 

3. If Krishna's temple is there. what is the need for a Gaudiya Vaishnava to go anywhere else?

 

you should not place yourself between a guru and his disciple. this is a very dangerous position. that reletionship is sacred and you have no right to interfere, unless you know from first hand experience that the guru in question is not following the process.

 

[gHari]

Well, at the risk of sounding like an old fuddy-duddy, I would say that I have noticed a terrifying erosion of morals in society since Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada left the world.

 

[gopidust]

When Narayana is worshipped as a demigod by Hindus in a Hindu temple(panca maha vidhi?) is he The Supreme Personality of Godhead properly installed? Or is he just another demigod installed according to the level of worship of his (hindu) followers? This is a real question.

[Kulapavana]

the position of Lord Narayana is not affected by misconceptions of His worshipers - He is still the Supreme Lord.

 

The degree of His presence in a Deity form depends on proper installation and the proper attitude of the worshipers. many Hindus have a very personal, loving attitude even towards the demigods they worship (like Ganesha for example) and that will certainly affect the potency of the Deity.

[Guest guest]

Narayana has unlimited power, unlimited glory and his idol has unlimited power/glory. He is not only present everywhere, this whole creation is present in Him, it is not like you invoke him in something.

The purpose of using the idols is to enable us to see Him in one place.

 

-Sravan

 

[Guest guest]

Narayana is not worshipped as Demi God neither installed as DEMI god in our temples in India. Its actually invalidation of ISKON groups of people who does not have proper understanding and brand like this without any knowledge.

Since its no use telling that here, I stopped replying to any posts.

Shri Hari Narayana Krishna are all one and the same. Nothing is demigod.

ISKONS are ignorants and this is the fact.

Bye guys..living in darkness....

[Guest guest]

Narayaneeyam reverred as one of the sacred texts that is the essence of Bagavatham but sung on Guruvayur Shri KRishna. This text is also referred by Swami Prabupaada in his Gita in his purports. (A careful reader will note this).

Krishna and Narayana are one and the same. Narayana is formless and cannot be conceived, beginingless, endless and He appeared as all the forms of Dashavathar. Prahalada was chanting Ohm Namo Bavathae Vaasudevaya, Ohm Namo Narayanaya. He has thousand names. Krishna is one of the names of Lord. Rama is one of the names of Lord. Shri Hari ia another name. One can worship Him as Shri Krishna or Narayana or Shri Hari or Kesava, Or Govinda or Gopala. Nothing is different except for the pronunciation of words as names.

 

Narasimha swami, Rama, Krishna are transcendental physical forms of ShriHari who appeard in different yugas to people to perceive the formless Shri Hari/Narayana in some form for us to meditate.

 

I feel the westerners need a better understandings of this.

Raghavan.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Shri Hari Narayana Krishna are all one and the same. Nothing is demigod.

ISKONS are ignorants and this is the fact.

 

please.. who in iskcon said that narayana is a demigod?

 

gopidust has said that krsna manifested his narayana aspect to the gopis!!.. how can you say that for iskcon narayana is a demigod?

 

be careful before offending spiritualists