The Lies Srila Prabhupada Taught

[gHari]

It seems that some Indian devotees tend to baulk at Srila Prabhupada's reverence for Lord Jesus Christ. It is now obvious to them that Prabhupada was just telling white lies to trick the Christians. This pious fraud is felt to have been instigated by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta for these preaching purposes.

 

Are there any other such conspiracy theories currently popular amongst Prabhupada followers?

 

[gopidust]

Srila Prabhupada said he saw his disciples as his guru or representatives of his guru because of their enthusiasm for serving Krishna. He saw his Godbrothers as his guru when they pushed him on his guru's behalf. Certainly when he said,"Jesus Christ is our guru." he must have been able to get something out of the teachings still left concerning Jesus the Christ. That is what I was told when I conjectured he must be lying, that actually he wasn't.

The only time he said anything that could be taken materially to be misleading was,"somehow or other, by hook or by crook, get them to buy a book." A crook is a hooklike device that catches fish off the line and helps a fisherman to bring it up to the boat. So the saying is not as sinful as it sounds. It is an Old English saying somewhat out of date. The point is it is so good for someone to buy a book it doesn't matter whether they know what they are buying or not. Half the time they might not even buy a book about Krishna if they knew what it was according to their misconceptions. So sell them a book and start their spiritual lives.

[krsna]

It's like telling a 3-year old that babies come from storks.

[krsna]

The Cheating of

Great Souls

 

Srila A. C. Bhaktivedanta

Swami Prabhupada

 

That great souls cheat others

may be astonishing to know, but it

is a fact that great souls cheat others for a

great cause. It is said that Lord Krishna also

advised Yudhishthir to tell a lie before

Dronacarya, and it was also for a great cause.

The Lord wanted it, and therefore it was a

great cause. Satisfaction of the Lord is the criterion

of one who is bona fide, and the highest

perfection of life is to satisfy the Lord by

one’s occupational duty. That is the verdict

of Gitä and Bhägavatam.

 

...To satisfy the Lord, anything is good,

for it is in relation with the Absolute Truth.

We also had the same opportunity to cheat

the family members and leave home to engage

in the service of Srimad Bhägavatam.

Such cheating was necessary for a great

cause, and there is no loss for any party in

such transcendental fraud.

 

— Purport to Bhäg. 1.13.37

 

 

 

 

We should think deeply about it. We should make a self-inquiry: "Have we reached guru-.-padma? Have we entered into his heart? Is he really merciful towards us? Is he really giving his darsana to us?" If he gives his darsana then there will be no more duhsanga! We are only pretending that we have done atma-nivedana, that we have surrendered. But we have not really surrendered. We have only been pretending, pretending, pretending for so many years, and also for so many years to come in the future. As long as we continue to act artificially we cannot approach guru, sadhu or vaisnava. We cannot get their mercy at all and therefore we cannot see their real form.

 

We will be cheated. We will get all external things.

 

- Lecture in Bhubaneswar 28 September 1995.

 

 

[Guest guest]

 

It seems that some Indian devotees tend to baulk at Srila Prabhupada's reverence for Lord Jesus Christ. It is now obvious to them that Prabhupada was just telling white lies to trick the Christians. This pious fraud is felt to have been instigated by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta for these preaching purposes.

 

Are there any other such conspiracy theories currently popular amongst Prabhupada followers?

 

 

 

Those Indians, accusing Prabhupada of lies, trickery and fraud. Those Jnanis cannot accept Christ. Right this is the situation. Very well, tell yourself what you need to.

 

After all these years being devotees, Ghari and Co. are still at neophyte understanding. What else is to be expected when they cling onto ingorance with dear life?

[theist]

The above post was from a fool.

 

Actually the above mentioned sectarianists are still protecting their turf. "If it's not from India it can't be real".

 

One of these days they might look up at night and realize it's a big world out there and the Lord is free to talk to any corner of his creation in anyway He wants. And does.

[Pankaja_Dasa]

 

 

I know its meant to be sarcastic. I just hate it.

[krsna]

If we want them to become great devotees, then we must

 

educate the children with love, not in a negative way.

 

Regarding your question should force be used on children, no, there shall be no forcing the children to do anything. Child should not be forced. This is all nonsense. Who has devised these things? If we want them to become great devotees, then we must educate the children with love, not in a negative way. Of course, if they become naughty we may show the stick but we should never use it. Child is nonsense, so you can trick him to obey you by making some little story and the child will become cheated in the proper behavior. But never apply force, especially to his chanting and other matters of spiritual training. That will spoil him and in the future he will not like to do it if he forced.

 

[s.rila Prabhupada Letter to: Brahmanya Tirtha Ahmedabad 10 December 1972]

 

[Kulapavana]

yes, GREAT souls may sometimes engage in innocent trickery to get others to become interested in spiritual life. as for the rest of us, it is much better if we PRACTICE HONESTY. it is a natural tendency of a conditioned soul to lie and cheat -

 

we dont need another excuse to exploit others

[Guest guest]

 

It seems that some Indian devotees tend to baulk at Srila Prabhupada's reverence for Lord Jesus Christ.

 

 

I thought what they objected to was his labeling of Jesus as an avatAr of Vishnu, not his reverence per se.

 

 

It is now obvious to them that Prabhupada was just telling white lies to trick the Christians. This pious fraud is felt to have been instigated by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta for these preaching purposes.

 

 

I do not know one way or another. I have only pointed out that this view does not seem to be reflected in the literature of the gosvAmI-s. Furthermore, such a view is not accepted by other vedAntins. These are facts, nothing more.

 

But I believe my mentioning them resulted in much hostility being directed at me. Indeed, some arguments hurled in my direction were truly creative: "God has limitless forms, QED Jesus is one of them" and "if you don't accept that Jesus is a form of God, then you are a sectarian Hindu clinging to the exclusive truths of his 'chosen book.'"

 

It was somewhere around this point that I lost any faith I previously had in the power of Reason being a governing force on this forum.

 

 

[Guest guest]

"This pious fraud is felt to have been instigated by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta for these preaching purposes."

 

Actually, it began with Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur, along with the push to deliver Lord Caitanya's teachings worldwide. Whether "lies" or deeper understanding lies in the heart of the beholder. Bhaktivinode also emphasized the great danger of sectarianism.

 

Mahaprabhu wished to inundate the entire planet with love of God, not 'Hindhism'. Those who consider themselves His followers need to realize the difference or end up relegating the very essence of Absolute Truth to simply another religion.

 

Every Christian group believes their interpretation of Lord Jesus to be superior, thus dividing their faith and thereby losing whatever strength genuine unity could provide.

 

God and guru are "simultaneously one-and-different". Christ is guru, Radha-Krsna is God. No need to define any further what can only be comprehended through humble submissive service. Devotional service, perfected and pure, remains the sole means and end for all souls. Amen.

[krsna]

 

Where is Maya lurking in this pastime trying to ensnare the'conditioned' soul into taking birth in the Bronx ?

 

Come on my dear Prabhu's,let's get real and give up once and for all this pre-primary apa-siddhanta thinking ,i.e.,that we got into Maya in Krsnaloka.

 

Think about,pray about it deeply and you'll see that it was simply a 'white lie' to get us drugged up ex-hippies and ex-judeo christian types hooked on chanting the Holy Names.It was nothing less than Prabhupada's infinite wisdom,compassion and mercy on the fallen souls of Kali-yuga.'Conditioned souls' DO NOT fall from Krsnaloka !

 

<font color="red"> Out of compassion for the fallen souls, Sri Krisna Caitanya came to this world with His personal associates and divine abode to teach saranagati, surrender to the almighty Godhead, and to freely distribute ecstatic love of God, which is ordinarily very difficult to obtain. This saranagati is the very life of the true devotee

 

The ways of saranagati are humility, dedication of the self, acceptance of the Lord as one’s only maintainer, faith that Krishna will surely protect, execution of only those acts favorable to pure devotion, and renunciation of conduct adverse to pure devotion.

 

The youthful son of Nanda Maharaja, Sri Krishna, hears the prayers of anyone who takes refuge in Him by this six-fold practice.

 

Bhaktivinoda places a straw between his teeth, prostrates himself before the two Goswamis,Sri Rupa and Sri Sanatana, and clasps their lotus feet with his hands. “I am certainly the lowest of men.” he tells them weeping, “but please make me the best of men by teaching me the ways of saranagati” </font color>

[theist]

We imagine maya or the devil to be like the proverbial boogyman(or woman) always trying to lead us astray. The sneaky little snake who slithered into the garden of Eden or Goloka and seduces the soul into to going against God. No that of course is wrong but then again that is not what proponents of our having "fallen"from Goloka say.

 

That little snake appears within.

 

I don't know the truth of how we got here. It is an interesting question but one I am not equipped to really understand but like others I can't help wondering. "Where do I come from" is such a natural question.

 

Like the children who ask, "where do babies come from?" They can't grasp the answer yet.

 

I have trouble with the "white lie" idea for this reason. That is, the other information that Prabhupada gave out was on an equally esoteric (or greater) level and Prabhupada still taught it.

 

The "white lie" hypothesis sounds very much like the mayavadi explaination for Vaisnava's teaching that God is a person who has a girlfriend and family situation equiped with a special village and pets even when actually he is impersonal and formless.

 

Certainly the white lie idea may be true elsewhere, i don't know, but I don't think it applies here.

 

Like I said I have no idea what the facts are, Bhaktivinode when asked said we have to "go there" ourselves before we will understand. But I do have a speculation to throw into the mix.

 

One enters maya when the desire to be arises within the living being. At that instant he is out of Goloka for Goloka is only for those who accept Krsna as the only enjoyer. The fall is internal as a dream is internal. Because we think in terms of space and time we imagine a form suddenly disappearing from the forest of Goloka and arriving elsewhere. This may be a key problem to our trying to speculate on this matter to a conclusion.

 

Let's say that someone there goes into such a dream state and falls into this dreamland. He dreams of various births deaths and experiences for millions of births. Finally awakens and "returns" to Goloka. Our minds think that he must have missed something because time would have passed. But time does not rule there. So why could not such a person arrive back at exactly the same point as when he "left"? Thus he never left.

 

For all I know the soul who thus "leaves" Goloka may certainly "lose" his svarupa as it exists only in relation to Krsna lila (as I understand) and enter into the Brahmajyoti. From there it may remain and eventualy rise back up or "fall" further into the material world.

 

It is all rather mystifying. I am proposing nothing so don't ask me to defend this position. Just another angle to consider.

[Pankaja_Dasa]

 

-

For all I know the soul who thus "leaves" Goloka may certainly "lose" his svarupa as it exists only in relation to Krsna lila (as I understand) and enter into the Brahmajyoti. From there it may remain and eventualy rise back up or "fall" further into the material world.

-

 

Damn if this happens then even Mayavadis have a hard task. And we? We have even more difficult task.

[theist]

We have to experience a change of heart from wanting to be the prime enjoyer, to one of being the enjoyed, servant.

 

No matter how we got into this mess the orignal cause is wanting to be numerial uno. People are trying to look at disease wholistically. That good's. But only Krsna Consciousness treats the core problem that all other problems stem from. Only this philosophy of changing the heart to one filled with Krsna prema. Bits of truth are found everywhere, in other philosphies and religions. But here it is dealt with directly and with understanding.

 

This should make us feel very very grateful to whoever brought us this to us.

 

As to where we came from, that is a curiousity at this time and needn't be over-emphasized. fun to think about though.[oops there I go having fun again /images/graemlins/wink.gif]

[theist]

Letter to: Madhudvisa

--

Unknown Place

Unknown Date

Letter excerpt

Crow And Tal-Fruit Logic

 

We never had any occasion when we were separated from Krsna. Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that. This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the "seen" disappears. But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position.

Our separation from Krsna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with Krsna desire for sense gratification is there. There is a dormant attitude for forgetting Krsna and creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently. Just like at the edge of the beach, sometimes the water covers, sometimes there is dry sand, coming and going. Our position is like that, sometimes covered, sometimes free, just like at the edge of the tide. As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there.

We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krsna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila or sport. But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration, therefore many creations are coming and going. Due to this long period of time it is sometimes said that we are ever-conditioned. But his long duration of time becomes very insignificant when one actually comes to Krsna consciousness. Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only. Just like with Krsna's friends, they were kept asleep for one year by Brahma, but when they woke up and Krsna returned before them, they considered that only a moment had passed.

So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to Krsna consciousness then this period is considered as a second. For example, Jaya and Vijaya. They had their lila with Krsna, but they had to come down for their little mistake. They were given mukti, emerging into the Brahmasayujya after being killed three times as demons. This Brahmasayujya mukti is non-permanent. Every living entity wants pleasure, but Brahmasayujya is minus pleasure. There is eternal existence only. So when they do not find transcendental bliss, they fall down to make a compromise with material bliss. Just like Vivekananda founded so many schools and hospitals. So even Lord Brahma, he is still material and wants to lord it over. He may come down to become a germ, but then he may rise up to Krsna consciousness and go back to home, back to Godhead. This is the position.

So when I say Yes, there is eternal lila with Krsna, that means on the evidence of Jaya-Vijaya. Unless one develops full devotional service to Krsna, he goes up only up to Brahmasayujya but falls down. But after millions and millions of years of keeping oneself away from the lila of the Lord, when one comes to Krsna consciousness this period becomes insignificant, just like dreaming.

Because he falls down from Brahmasayujya, he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that before that even he was with Krsna. So the conclusion is that whatever may be our past, let us come to Krsna consciousness and immediately join Krsna. Just like with a diseased man, it is a waste of time to try to find out how he has become diseased, better to spend time curing the disease.

On the top of the tree there is a nice tal-fruit. A crow went there and the fruit fell down, Some panditas, big big learned scholars saw this and discussed: the fruit fell due to the crow agitating the limb. No, the fruit fell simultaneously with the crow landing and frightened the crow so he flew away. No, the fruit was ripe and the weight of the crow landing broke it from the branch, and so on and so on. What is the use of such discussions? So whether you were in the Brahmasayujya or with Krsna in His lila, at the moment you are in neither, so the best policy is to develop your Krsna consciousness and go there, never mind what is your origin.

Brahmasayujya and Krsna lila--both may be possible, but when you are coming down from Brahmasayujya or when you are coming down from Krsna lila, that remains a mystery. But at the present moment we are in Maya's clutches, so at present our only hope is to become Krsna conscious and go back to Home, back to Godhead. The real position is servant of Krsna, and servant of Krsna means in Krsna lila. Directly or indirectly, always we are serving Krsna's lila. Even in dream. Just like we cannot go out of the sun when it is daytime, so where is the chance of going out of Krsna lila? The cloud may be there, it may become very gray and dim, but still the sunlight is there, everywhere, during the daytime. Because I am part and parcel of Krsna, I am always connected. My finger, even though it may be diseased, remains part and parcel of my body. Therefore, we try to treat it, cure it, because it is part and parcel. So Krsna comes Himself when we forget Him, or He sends His representative.

Awakening or dreaming, I am the same man. As soon as I awaken and see myself, I see Krsna. Cause and effect are both Krsna. Just like cotton becomes thread and thread becomes cloth, still, the original cause is cotton. Therefore, everything is Krsna in the ultimate sense. When we cannot contact Krsna personally, we contact His energies. So there is no chance to be outside Krsna's lila. But differences we see under different conditions. Just like in the pool of water and in the mirror the same me is reflecting, but in different reflections. One is shimmering, unsteady, one is clear and fixed. Except for being in Krsna consciousness, we cannot see our actual position rightly, therefore the learned man sees all living entities as the same parts and parcels of Krsna. Material existence is impersonal because my real personality is covered. But we should think that because I am now covered by this clay, I am diseased, and we should think that I must get to business to get myself uncovered, not wonder how I got this way. Now the fruit is there, take it and enjoy, that is your first business. God is not bound by cause. He can change, He is the Cause of all Causes. Now don't waste your time with this "Kaka taliya nyaya," crows and tal-fruit logic.

[Guest guest]

"The Cheating of

Great Souls

 

Srila A. C. Bhaktivedanta

Swami Prabhupada

 

That great souls cheat others

may be astonishing to know, but it

is a fact that great souls cheat others for a

great cause. It is said that Lord Krishna also

advised Yudhishthir to tell a lie before

Dronacarya, and it was also for a great cause.

The Lord wanted it, and therefore it was a

great cause. Satisfaction of the Lord is the criterion

of one who is bona fide, and the highest

perfection of life is to satisfy the Lord by

one’s occupational duty. That is the verdict

of Gitä and Bhägavatam."

 

 

even protest the conversions by Christians and Muslims of Hindus everywhere? They're simply doing the same thing. They believe THEIR god is the one and only god,and as such, they try to spread "salvation" for all souls.

 

And now Hindus are turning to the very same antics?

[gHari]

I don't think Srila Prabhupada taught/told any lies, and especially nothing he would say over and over again. So for me, we can fall, Jesus is empowered by Sri Krsna, and gurus are not omniscient like Krsna.

 

[theist]

and I would add Prabhupada is not a preacher of Hinduism(whatever that is). The only conversion he emphasized was convert the heart from a lover of matter to a lover of Krsna.

 

So don't worry he never lied to anyone trying to convert them to Hinduism.

[anadi]

One who learns the wrong way and even propagates "that" is more dangerous than the one who has no idea.

 

One enters maya when the desire to be arises within the living being. At that instant he is out of Goloka for Goloka is only for those who accept Krsna as the only enjoyer.

 

 

In the spiritual world there is no idea that would make the spiritual living entities to reject Krishna as the supreme enjoyer.

 

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura says:

MahA-ViSNu, who is an avatara of SankarSaNa,

situates Himself in the jIva-Sakti, and in His ParamAtmA svarUpa,

He manifests the jIvas who have the potential to be involved in

the material world. These jivas are susceptible to the influence of

mAyA, and unless they attain the shelter of the hlAdini-Sakti of the

cit-Sakti by BhagavAn’s mercy, the possibility of their being defeated

by mAyA remains.

 

So there is no illusion that would make the spiritual living entities in Goloka to forget his Krishna Consciousness, and more than that, they are under the shelter of the spiritual loving potency of Sri Krishna , hladini shakti.

 

This is also explained by Srila Jiva Gosvami right in the begining of his Bhakti Sandharba: paramaatma vaibhava ganane ca tatasta shakti rupanam apianadi paratattva jnana sansaga abhava maya tat vaimukya labda cidraga avrita sad svarupa jnananam.

Jiva is a manifestation of the vaibhava (oppulence) of the paramaatma (which is situated in jiva shakti, outside of Goloka, namely in tatasta shakti, the marginal energy not the internal, antaranga energy).

Cit eka rasanam, means that jiva is conscious by nature but jiva's paratattva jnana, the knowledge of the Supreme is sansaga abhava. Here Srila Jiva Gosvami uses the vaisheshika darshana of kanada rishi to define the position of the jiva.

He uses the category abhava which means non existence in connection to sansaga, which means coexistence.

In the vaisheshika philosophy the non-existence, abhava, is of two types:

1. anya-anya abhava : mutual non-existence, used to identify an object as different from another

2. sansaga abhava : the non-existence of co-existence

The sansaga abhava is of three types:

1. praga sansaga abhava – antecedent non-existence of co-existence; An imperfect material example: a notepad and a biography.

There was an antecedent non-existence of their co-existence before the biography was written in the notepad.

When the biography was written in the notepad the non-existence of their co-existence came to an end, and the destruction of this non-existence of their co-existence is considered eternal, which means their coexistence is eternal.

2. pradvangsa sansaga abhava – non-existence of co-existence brought up by destruction. An imperfect material example: A pot which is made of clay is destroyed. In this way the non-existence of their co-existence is eternal.

3. atyanta sansaga abhava – the absolute non-existence of co-existence, has no beginning and no end.

 

The paratattva jnana of the jiva-shakti is sansaga abhava, which means, there is a non-existence of co-existence between the living entity and his krishna consciousness.

If it would be atyanta sansaga abhava, it would mean that jiva was never krishna conscious and would never be.

If it would be pradvangsa sansaga abhava it would mean that jiva

- was krishna conscious

- his krishna consciousness was destroyed

- for the rest of his existence jiva will never be krishna conscious or

- jiva was in Goloka, he felt from Goloka and will never come back.

Sri Krishna says in the Bhagavat-gita that the jivas that come to him will never come back in the material world, which means that krishna consciousness of the jiva once it is attained will be eternal, so this also means that Srila Jiva Gosvamipada wanted to say that the non-existence of the krishna consciousness of jiva is praga sansaga abhava:

- there was an antecedent non-existence of krishna consciousness of the jiva

- the non existence of his krishna consciousness will come to an end

- the end of the non-existence of his krishna consciousness will be eternal

 

(inspiration from Italian lecture on Bhakti Sandharba by Srila Bhaktivedanta Aranya Maharaja)

[theist]

I didn't know I could fly. Can't wait to try it out. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

Radhe Radhe Jaya Sri Radhe!!