Are these Chechen Islamists getting out of hand ?

[krsna]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3616868.stm

[Kulapavana]

I'm not sure which bunch of asuras is worse: Islamic militants or those who enter their lands to fight them?

[theist]

I have no questions. A theater filled with 800 people in the recent past. Two planes last week. And now these kids held hostage.

 

Kill every Islamofacist now. Don't bring them to justice, bring justice to them.

[gHari]

"From the 7th century through the 16th century Chechens and Ingushs were Christians, but then the influence of Islam spread until Sunnites became the majority."

 

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/country_profiles/2565049.stm

 

http://www.oefre.unibe.ch/law/icl/cc__indx.html

 

BTW, I noticed that the Nepalese had an interesting reaction to the terror - they ransacked their local mosque. This may happen throughout the world soon enough.

 

[Guest guest]

These Islamofascists are as dangerous as the Christian fascists. They both deserve each other. Wouldn't you agree?

[Kulapavana]

"Kill every Islamofacist now. Don't bring them to justice, bring justice to them"

 

that is what the other side is trying to do with zionazis and their servants and allies, the christian facists. they are all just a bunch of demons using religion to exploit others. there is much uproar about terrorists blasting planes and kidnapping people but scores of innocent people die daily in Iraq as the direct result of US invasion. for every action there is a reaction and the law of karma applies to all equally.

 

there is absolutely no moral justification for all this slaughter that goes on in the world. ALL these asuras must be condemned. I'm surprised by your efforts to defend one group of demons vs another.

[theist]

 

These Islamofascists are as dangerous as the Christian fascists. They both deserve each other. Wouldn't you agree?

 

 

 

I don't see these Christian fascists you refer to. Nor do I see comparable Hindu or Buddhist fascists bring terror to the world.

 

Mostly the Christian fanatics are avoidable on the street. obnoxious yes. But they aren't taking several hundred small children hostage at gunpoint.

 

Everywhere these Islamofacists go they reek terror on the innocent. The Phillopines(sp) Israel, Kashmire, Afghanistan,Spain, Russia,America and many other places. Wherever they go in fact. Now even the faggot French are threatened by hostage taking over the headscarf issue. Filming themselves cutting off heads in Iraq. These are the sickest of the sick and they are convinced they have a mandate from God.

 

Kill them all now. Note I am refering to the terrorists among the Muslims not all Muslims.

[theist]

 

I'm surprised by your efforts to defend one group of demons vs another.

 

 

I am surprised by you lack of discrimination. Especially from someone who considers himself a ksatriya.

 

What would Pariksit do to someone who took several hundred school children hostage wearing suicide bomb belts?

 

Paralysis by over-thinking.

 

World leaders must be decisive.

 

[Kulapavana]

"What would Pariksit do to someone who took several hundred school children hostage wearing suicide bomb belts?"

 

Maharaja Pariksit would not create a situation where some people were so oppressed they had to resort to such horrible actions to defend their interests. Cause and effect, remember?

 

Terrorism is not a cause, it is an effect. Just like being born in a poor family is an effect. But in order to realize that, you have to understand the broad picture.

 

If you think that brutal repression of terrorism works you need to take a close look at Algeria and France. After an incredibly brutal and costly "anti-terrorism" campaign France lost this colony anyway. That was decades ago but the asuras in US and Russia think: "oh, it will be different now". arrogant fools.

 

KSHATRIYAS RULE WITH JUSTICE, NOT WITH SWORD!

 

you know little of kshatriya culture. dont bring up great kings like Maharaja Pariksit to the moral filth level of our age.

 

[Guest guest]

I hope both of you keep this discussion alive. I sorta agree with both you and Theist Prabhu. You are right about the cause and effect thing, but Theist is right about crushing terrorism with an iron hand. It is hard to find the truth, because even if you think in terms of karma, the CAUSE could stretch infinitely into the past, thus involving God himself. So you need to draw the line somewhere, STOP thinking and start acting. Too much thinking with little action ain't gonna do any good.

BTW: Who's Maharaja Pariksit and why is he so great?

[Kulapavana]

thinking before you act is very much recommended. otherwise you will fail in your efforts. so think: is current strategy in US "war on terrorism" working? (and by "working" I mean reducing the terrorism). In my opinion it is clearly NOT working.

 

Actually Bush and his gang are VERY GLAD the terrorism is there so they can spend billions of dollars of taxpayers money buying gear and services from companies run by their buddies. And the fear of terrorism is the ONLY thing Bush has going for him as a president and his only hope for re-election.

 

 

Maharaja Pariksit was one of the great kings from Srimad Bhagavatam, often listed as the last Vedic ruler.

[theist]

Yes Arjuna wanted to withdraw from the battlefield and presented his objections to Krishna. Krishna didn't but it.

 

It is very simple. A group of fanatics take possession of a school filled with children,infants and their mothers, kill some people while doing so, have suicide bombs strapped to their wastes and other munitions, deny food and water for the children, place children in front of the windows to hide behind and God only knows what will happen next and you want to start debating on the cause and effect.

 

Ksatriyas act on the problem at hand.

 

Krishna says He is the rod of chastisment. Ksatriyas are meant to weild that rod on His behalf.

 

TRANSLATION

Among all means of suppressing lawlessness I am punishment,...

 

PURPORT

There are many suppressing agents, of which the most important are those that cut down miscreants. When miscreants are punished, the agency of chastisement represents Krsna.[snip]

[krsna]

High death toll in Russia siege

Live BBC coverage

At least 150 people are reported to have died at a school in southern Russia where Chechen separatists had been holding hundreds of hostages.

Dozens of corpses were seen outside a local morgue, and the number of dead is expected to rise further.

 

Heavy gunfire and loud explosions were heard throughout the morning as Russian troops stormed the school, in the town of Beslan in North Ossetia.

 

Russian troops are fighting to free children still held hostage.

 

The BBC's Jonathan Charles in Beslan reports hearing more loud blasts in the area of the school after a period of relative calm.

 

There is confusion over what sparked the operation, which was unplanned.

 

Correspondents say the day's events have taken Moscow by surprise.

 

 

Click here to see the layout of the school

The BBC's Humphrey Hawksley in Moscow says there has been a wall of silence from President Vladimir Putin and his government.

 

Meanwhile, the US White House condemned the hostage-taking as "barbaric" and blamed the hostage-takers for the lives lost during the storming of the school.

 

Battle continues

 

Hundreds of children were freed in the seizure, though some are badly injured.

 

AT A GLANCE (TIMES IN GMT)

1700: Russia media says 646 taken to hospital, including 227 children

1608: Up to 1,200 may have been held hostage - Putin aide

1530: Putin aide says death toll may top 150

1514: Officials say some children still held hostage

1407: 10 hostage-takers killed in shoot-outs - Interfax

1330: Security services say their assault on school was not planned

1125: Security forces attack house where some rebels thought to be hiding - reports

0958: Special forces enter school

0930: School roof said to have collapsed

0905: Explosions and gunfire heard. Soldiers run to building

 

 

At a glance: School siege

However Aslanbek Aslakhanov, an aide to Mr Putin who has just arrived in the region, said the death toll would be considerably higher than 150. Around 60 of the dead have so far been identified.

 

Itar-Tass news agency said 646 people, 227 children, were taken to hospital during the day.

 

Officials put the number of hostages at 354 before Thursday's release, but Mr Aslakhanov said up to 1,200 could have been held.

 

 

He added that 20 hostage-takers had died in exchanges of fire with troops, at least nine of them Arabs.

 

But several hours after the assault, a group of rebels was still firing from a building in the school compound, Itar-Tass said.

 

 

Other reports said three militants, possibly including the group's leader, were hiding in the school's basement.

 

 

Russian security officials said they had still been intending to negotiate with them before Friday's events unfolded.

 

"I want to point out that no military action was planned," said regional Federal Security Service chief Valery Andreyev. "We were planning further talks."

 

Security forces had opened fire to save the lives of hostages who were being fired on by gunmen, he said.

 

It is unclear what caused the initial explosion.

 

Witnesses later saw at least 100 bodies piled inside the school.

 

White sheets

 

Correspondents say many of those released were desperate for water when they came out, and some were barely able to stand.

 

Relatives were running around screaming and crying

 

 

 

Eyewitness: Chaos as battle grips school

There were scenes of pandemonium, as children ran terrified and half-naked through the streets grabbing water bottles from medics.

 

One boy described his escape.

 

"I smashed the window to get out," he told Russian TV. "People were running in all directions... [The rebels] shot from the roof."

 

Ambulances ferried hundreds of people to hospital. Our correspondent says at least 150 children were among them.

 

 

Click below for a detailed map of Beslan

 

 

Enlarge Map

 

 

Reuters said six bodies lay covered with white sheets near the school gates, and parents filed past lifting the sheets to see whether their children were underneath.

 

The attackers - both men and women, some wearing bomb belts - struck on Wednesday, the first day of the new school year in Russia.

 

They demanded independence for the troubled region of Chechnya, where Russian forces have been involved in a bloody conflict with separatists for several years.

 

 

 

more

[theist]

These Islamofacists started shooting the children from the roof as a group of them tried to escape.

[gHari]

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Chechnya :<blockquote>Chechen society has traditionally been organized around many autonomous local clans, called teips. Even today, many Chechens consider themselves loyal to their teip above all, one reason why it has been difficult to forge a united political front against Russia.

 

From the 7th century through the 16th century Chechens and Ingushs were Christians, but then the influence of Islam spread until Sunnites became the majority.

 

Russian influence started as early as the 16th century when Ivan_the_Terrible founded Tarki in 1559 where the first Cossack army was stationed 1587. Until the late 18th century the area was protected from Russian occupation by the khanate of Crimea. Only after it was annexed by the Russian_Empire in 1783 the Russian colonization of the Caucasus began, met with fierce resistance by the mountain tribes. In 1785 they started waging a holy war against the Russians under Sheikh Mansur who was captured in 1791 and died a few years later.

 

Imperial Russian forces began moving into Chechnya in 1830 to secure Russia's borders with the Ottoman Empire. The Chechens resisted fiercely, led by national hero Imam Shamil, but Chechnya was finally incorporated into the Russian Empire in 1859.

 

Russian occupation caused a prolonged wave of emigration until the end of the 19th century. Thousands of Caucasians moved to Turkey and other countries of the Middle East, while Cossacks and Armenians settled in Chechnya.

 

During the Russo-Turkish War 1877/78 the Caucasians rose against Russia once more, but were defeated again.

 

The Chechnya-Ingushetia region received status of an autonomous republic within the Soviet Union in 1936. During World War II, the Soviet government accused the Chechens of cooperating with the Nazi invaders, which had controlled the western parts of Chechnya-Ingushetia for several months in 1942/1943 winter. On orders from Stalin, the entire population of the republic was exiled to Kazakhstan. Over a quarter died. The Chechens were allowed to return only in 1957, four years after Stalin's death in 1953.</blockquote>

 

One assumes it was the sword and not the book that spread Islam into the area. Then they get beaten by Russia. The whole thing reminds me of Kashmir. I say send them all back to the desert; let no one in and no one out. I trust none of them. I read the book.

[krsna]

Russians seek answers after siege

 

By Steven Eke

BBC correspondent in Moscow

 

 

 

Muscovites prayed for the victims of the school siege

In Moscow the horror of the events in Beslan is still being digested by a population that has also experienced suicide attacks this year.

Children occupy a special place in Russian life and there is particular revulsion that they were specifically targeted.

 

Russian analysts have suggested only religious fanaticism can explain the brutality of Beslan.

 

That ties in with the official conviction here that Islamic extremism, and not the Chechen territorial dispute, is at the root of the unprecedented violence.

 

Revenge warning

 

Information from the judicial authorities has been patchy, but it suggests that there were more than 30 hostage-takers in total, including an estimated nine Arabs and at least one African.

 

Officials say they hope to identify the masterminds behind the operation quickly.

 

Their immediate suspicion has fallen on Shamil Basayev, one of the top Chechen field commanders still at large and a man known to have links with radical Islamist organisations.

 

Politicians in Moscow have welcomed President Vladimir Putin's promise of tougher security measures.

 

Meanwhile a top representative of Moscow's Chechen community described the hostage-takers as non-humans, with neither faith nor nationality, and warned that there is now a real possibility of violent revenge attacks against ethnic minorities.

 

 

[krsna]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3632462.stm

[gHari]

I divined the future from the past and present for Islam, but I don't think the BBC will publish my comments to the journalist's article:<blockquote>One need only look at the last thousand years of India's history to know that this is the way of Islam. Rape, pillage, murder are the mainstays of the people. The world has grown up, and will no longer tolerate such bullies. Nepal has shown the beginning of the next phase of reaction to Islamic terror. The world's mosques will be destroyed. Then as the ignorance escalates, all Muslims will be forced back to the desert. Then no one will be allowed out of or into the Islamic desert. Islam will learn to live without the world's technology, science and medicine. They will be forced to kill, rape and cheat each other.</blockquote>

[Pankaja_Dasa]

 

 

That theres no Islamaloka. Or is there?

[krsna]

Latest Indian Census Reports Increased Rate of Growth for Muslim

Community

Rajiv Malik, HPI Correspondent

 

NEW DELHI, September 7, 2004: "In terms of growth of different

religious communities, Hindus showed a decline over the previous

decade, their population growing by 20.3% during 1991 and 2001 as

compared to 25.1% during 1981-91. The Muslim population on the other

hand, grew by 36.0% during 1991-2001, compared to 34.5% during

1981-91." These statistics were revealed in a report entitled "2001

Census Data On Religion" released at a crowded press conference held in

New Delhi's prestigious Vigyan Bhawan Annexe on the afternoon of

September 6th, 2004. The report containing data on religion as

collected during the 2001 Census for the country as a whole and for

each state and union territory by districts was released by Census

Commissioner J. K. Banthia who presented a copy to Chairman of

Minorities Commission Shri Tarlochan Singh. Noted social scientist and

demographer Prof. Ashish Bose was also present at the event.

 

The report has create a political controversy in India over this high

Muslim growth rate, so much so that it has been withdrawn temporarily.

 

Following are some of the excerpts from the report-

 

Out of the total population of 102.8 crore (or 1.028 billion) in the

country as at the 2001 Census, the Hindus were 82.7 crore (or 827

million) in number and constituted 80.5% of the population of the

country. The Muslim population stood at 13.8 crore (or 138 million)

comprising of 13.4% of the population. The next in size are the

Christians (2.4 crore or 24 million), followed by Sikhs (1.9 crore or

19 million), Buddhists (79 lakh or 7.9 million), Jains (42 lakh or 4.2

million) and those following "Other" religions and persuasions

including the tribal religions, etc. (66 lakh or 6.6 million).

 

Among Buddhists also there has been a sizeable decline in the growth

rate from 35.3% during 1981-91 to only 24.5% during 1991-2001. Also

though there is slight increase in the growth rate of the Christians

(from 21.5% to 22.6%), there is noticeable decline of Sikh growth rate

from 24.3% in 1981-91 to only 18.2% during 1991-2001. Most prominent in

the 2001 Census data released is the growth rate of Jains (26.0%)

during 1991-2001 as compared to their growth of only 4.6% during the

previous decade 1981-91.

 

As regards the disparity of the absolute and relative number of male

and female population in the society, expressed in terms of sex ratio

or number of females per thousand males, the Hindus (931) were slightly

below the national average of 933, whereas Muslims returned 936. The

sex ratio among the Christian population grew from 994 in 1991 to 1009

in 2001. Among Sikhs, as was also noted earlier while releasing data on

total population in Punjab, the sex ratio was the lowest (893). For the

Buddhists and the Jains the sex ratio remained almost the same at 953

and 950.

 

Literacy rate for all the religious groups, as revealed again for the

first time in 2001 Census, were very encouraging, shattering many myths

in circulation earlier when such a dataset was not available for the

country as a whole. The literacy rate among Hindus (65.1%) was slightly

better than the national average (64.8%) for all religious groups

combined. Among Muslims the literacy rate is 59.1%, below the national

average. The highest literacy rate is recorded among the Jains (94.1%),

followed by Christians (80.3%), Buddhists (72.7%) and Sikhs (69.4%).

 

Against the existing popular perceptions, the female literacy rate

among different religious groups does not show wide variation. Among

the Muslims, for instance, the literacy rate among the females was

returned as 50.1%, below the national average of 53.7%. Slightly better

is the female literacy rate among the Hindus (53.2%), again below the

national average. The highest literacy rate among the females was

recorded among the Jains (90.6%), like their male counterparts. Female

literacy rate among Christians was 76.2%, followed by Sikhs (63.1%) and

Buddhists (61.7%).

 

For more details please visit the Census Commissioner, India's website

http://www.censusindia.net.

[krsna]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/3639922.stm

 

No way to escape their terror now ? /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[theist]

One way and only one way to stop them. Hunt them down and kill them on the spot. Aggressors should be killed. This demons are a certain class of aggressor, the blind religious fanatic type. The most dangerous of all.

 

John Kerry wants to be more "sensitive" to the terrorist. He could not be more clueless, just as the rest of the world still appears to be.

[Kulapavana]

"Aggressors should be killed"

 

that is exactly what the "terrorists" are doing in Palestine, Iraq and Chechnya - killing aggressors who invaded their land. greedy, corrupt materialists are just as despicable as the "blind religious fanatics".

 

both sides have powerful demons using naive people doing their dirty work for them (and dying by the scores)

 

I'm not sure who has more innocent blood on their hands: Binladen or Bush. Want to run the numbers Theistji? and dont give me the "good intentions - bad results" routine.

 

phalena paraciyate - you judge by the results

[theist]

I don't want to waste time and energy exchange battle posts with you or anyone over this. If you can't tell the difference between this Islamofascists and someone who acts to stop them that is your choice.