What will Gaudiya Vaisnavism be like in 2000 years?

[Guest guest]

Something like present day Christianity?

[gHari]

This movie classic foretells of a not too distant time when the dull drab streets and people find the only bit of colour left is on the dancing chanting saffron devotees. Unfortunately the devotees have changed the mahamantra as we hear "Hare Hare Hare Hare" which is of course just never found in the lyric.

 

[Guest guest]

Gaudiya Vaishnavism will be like christianity in western countries, while In India it would be still with lots of actual practice of Sanathana Dharma or HInduism..Westerneres are good in their book knowledge of vaishnavism,but they make it like christianity preaching due to their lack of Indian up bringing.

 

[theist]

"Every town and village" requires preaching. Did not Haridas thakur and Lord Nityananda go door to door?

[krsna]

Yes.it will be like Krsnianity, where the letter of the ISKCON Law will be scrupulously adhered to over and above the spirit of Mahaprabhu's teachings which advocate Sri Krsna sankirtanam .

[AncientMariner]

I don't know what it will be like in 2000 years but I imagine in 426,999 years that the required number of rounds to be one of the boys is going to be reduced to 1. Sorry, just kidding around.

[theist]

 

Yes.it will be like Krsnianity, where the letter of the ISKCON Law will be scrupulously adhered to over and above the spirit of Mahaprabhu's teachings which advocate Sri Krsna sankirtanam .

 

 

A scarey vision indeed. Living vibrant reality covered over by mundane religion. Masses of people taking shelter of pious life as a substitute for loving Krsna. Many of us have already made this choice, though we keep it from our awareness by pointing to the essence. We point the way but don't walk it. We give lip service while keeping our hearts distant from God.

 

But even if Gaudiya Vaisnavism develops into a "Catholic Church" there will always be a St. Francis manifesting. It is up to each one of us to be looking for that St. Francis type who respectfully places the heart above the ritual. And to even be that type ourselves.

[krsna]

St. Francis of Assisi's vocation prayer:

 

Most High, Glorious God,

enlighten the darkness of our minds.

Give us a right faith, a firm hope and a perfect charity,

so that we may always and in all things act according to Your Holy Will. Amen.

The Meditation Prayer of St. Francis of Assisi:

 

My God and My All!

 

 

Canticle of Brother Sun and Sister Moon of St. Francis of Assisi:

 

Most High, all-powerful, all-good Lord,

All praise is Yours, all glory, all honour and all blessings.

To you alone, Most High, do they belong,

and no mortal lips are worthy to pronounce Your Name.

 

Praised be You my Lord with all Your creatures,

especially Sir Brother Sun,

Who is the day through whom You give us light.

And he is beautiful and radiant with great splendour,

Of You Most High, he bears the likeness.

 

Praised be You, my Lord, through Sister Moon and the stars,

In the heavens you have made them bright, precious and fair.

 

Praised be You, my Lord, through Brothers Wind and Air,

And fair and stormy, all weather's moods,

by which You cherish all that You have made.

 

Praised be You my Lord through Sister Water,

So useful, humble, precious and pure.

 

Praised be You my Lord through Brother Fire,

through whom You light the night

and he is beautiful and playful and robust and strong.

 

Praised be You my Lord through our Sister,

Mother Earth

who sustains and governs us,

producing varied fruits with coloured flowers and herbs.

Praise be You my Lord through those who grant pardon

for love of You and bear sickness and trial.

Blessed are those who endure in peace,

By You Most High, they will be crowned.

 

Praised be You, my Lord through Sister Death,

from whom no-one living can escape.

Woe to those who die in mortal sin!

Blessed are they She finds doing Your Will.

No second death can do them harm.

Praise and bless my Lord and give Him thanks,

And serve Him with great humility.

 

Two greetings of St. Francis of Assisi:

 

Good Morning, Good People!

 

Peace and all Good!

 

 

 

**************************

 

 

Lord, make me an instrument of your peace.

Where there is hatred let me sow peace;

where there is injury let me sow forgiveness;

where there is doubt let me sow faith;

where there is despair let me give hope;

where there is darkness let me give light;

where there is sadness let me give joy.

0 Lord, grant that I may not try to be comforted,

but to comfort,

not try to be understood but to understand,

not try to be loved but to love.

 

Because it is in giving that we receive,

it is in forgiving that we are forgiven,

and it is in dying that we are born

to eternal life.

 

[Guest guest]

like any other religion, specially withy this people who try to introduce Catholic Theology into KC, my God!

[theist]

Lecture at St. pascal's Franciscan Seminary-Melbourne, June 28, 1974

 

Guest (3): How would His Grace see Jesus Christ?

 

Prabhupäda: Jesus Christ, Lord Jesus Christ, is... He is son of God, the best son of God, so we have all respect for him. Yes. Anyone who is teaching people about God consciousness, he is respectful to us. It does not matter in which country, in which atmosphere, he was preaching. It doesn’t matter.

 

Madhudviña: (repeating question) St. Francis, the founder of this particular order which we have been invited to speak to, found God in the material world. And he used to address the aspects of the material world as “brother” and “sister.” “Brother tree,” “sister water,” like that. What is your view upon this?

 

Prabhupäda: This is real God consciousness. This is real God consciousness, yes, not that “I am God conscious, and I kill the animals.” That is not God conscious. To accept the trees, plants, lower animals, insignificant ants even, as brothers... Samaù sarveñu bhüteñu. This is explained in the Bhagavad-gétä.

 

brahma-bhütaù prasannätmä

na çocati na käìkñati

samaù sarveñu bhüteñu

[bg. 18.54]

Samaù. Samaù means equal to all living entities, to see the spirit soul, anyone... It doesn’t matter whether he is man or cat or dog or tree or ant or insect or big man. They are all parts and parcel of God. They are simply dressed differently. One has got the dress of tree; one has got the dress of king; one has got the, insect. That is also explained in the Bhagavad-gétä. Paëòitäù sama-darçinaù: [bg. 5.18] “One who is paëòita, learned, his vision is equal.” So if St. Francis was thinking like that, that is highest standard of spiritual understanding. Similar expression is there in the Caitanya-caritämåta, that sthävara-jaìgama dekhe nä dekhe tära mürti. A spiritually advanced devotee of the Lord, he sees the trees or the animals or the stone or the anything he sees—he sees that it is the energy of God. Nä dekhe tära mürti. Just like your mürti or my mürti—mürti means form—may be little different, but we are made of the same ingredients. If your body surgically operated, the same blood, stone, or bone, or flesh, everything is there the same because same ingredients. Similarly, our outward covering is covered by these material elements, but inside, within this, there is the spirit soul. Therefore one who is advanced, he does not see that “This is cat, this is dog, this is man, this is elephant, and this is brähmaëa, this is this...” No. He sees the soul, that “Here is the soul, part and parcel of God.” That is his vision. Paëòitäù sama-darçinaù [bg. 5.18]. So that is God realization. God is spirit, Supreme Spirit, and he is part and parcel, the living entities. That is real vision. Paëòitäù. Paëòitäù means learned.

[vijay]

Whats with all the Iskcon bashing on this forum??

 

If you dont like it then do something about, if you dont find life with the devotees in iskcon (I find loads of enthusiasm in my area) then enthuse devotees, you guys are so educated that critise the instituion then lovingly educate them.

 

Else buzz off cause your not helping by your rants and remarks. (-:

[theist]

What ISKCON bashing? Please be more specific.

[Guest guest]

"Yes.it will be like Krsnianity, where the letter of the ISKCON Law will be scrupulously adhered to over and above the spirit of Mahaprabhu's teachings which advocate Sri Krsna sankirtanam . "

 

Seen alot of this sort of stuff throughout the threads

[Guest guest]

Please stop being pessimistic. Lord Chaitanya's and Srila Prabhupada's order will be followed till the next 10,000 years and we will work for it together in cooperation. In the eternal expanse of time, 10,000 years is just a miniscule, infinitesimal part that the jivas get to escape this otherwise never-escapbale material world of illusion. so I request all to please be optimistic and self-introspective. Hare Krishna! Jai Srila Prabhupada!!

[vijay]

The people critisisng iskcon for being (or will be) too kristian or dampening mahaprabhu's mood, are pretty westernised in the way they critisise thier, thought process, is not at all vaishnav, a vaishnav has compassion trys to enthuse and inspire fellow devotees a karmi/neophyte always sees the negative and tries to rubbish efforts made by other devotees (whenever its not up to the neophytes idealistic standard). Unconstructive critisism is purely a boost to the neophtes ego.

 

Sorry to go on, but i find it offensive to all those devotees that are trying their utmost best to preach and have been very succesful like radhanatha swmai, indrayumna maharaj, devotees i personally know preaching in middle east and china risking thier lives who are also under the banner of iskcon to be rubbished constantly under one brush stroke named iskcon.

 

Yes alot may be wrong with the way iskcon is managed and yes they may not be living up to the potential they have, yet there are plenty of devotees serving krishna with enthusiasm dedicating their lives fully, in so many fields around the world.

 

The minds full of rubbish will only see the rubbish and will love talking about rubish constantly, the mind full of devotion will see devotion in others and try to enthuse it, knowing that once this is rekindled all other things will follow.

[Puru_Das]

TEXT 164

 

TEXT

 

mahantera apamana ye desa-grame haya

eka janara dose saba desa ujadaya

 

SYNONYMS

 

mahantera--of persons who are highly advanced in spiritual life; apamana--disrespect; ye desa-grame--in which country or village; haya--is; eka janara--of one man; dose--for the fault; saba desa--the whole country; ujadaya--becomes afflicted.

 

TRANSLATION

 

Wherever an advanced devotee is insulted, for one man's fault the entire town or place is afflicted.

 

Cc. Antya lila 3.164

 

The dilemna for anyone in iskcon is that they all share in the result of the offences of its gbc, which has had a consistant policy of sadhu ninda, since l977.

 

Also anyone who accepts an ecclesiastical appointment as a "guru" and allows others to think of himself in that way, is culpable for complicity in distorting guru tattva:

 

paramartha-gurasrayo vyavaharika-gurvadiparityagenapi kartavyah

"One should not accept a spiritual master based on hereditary, social or ecclesiastical conventions. Such a professional guru should be rejected. One must accept a qualified spiritual master, who can help one advance toward the ultimate goal of life, krsna prema

(Srila Jiva Gosvami's Bhakti-sandharba, annucheda 210)

 

Ignoring the importance of this principle with regard to sad guru cheapens the mission of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu by not actually teaching the real instructions of Srila Rupa Gosvami.

 

"According to Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu, the science of devotional service:

 

"adau sraddha tatah sadhu-sango 'tha bhajana-kriya

tato 'nartha-nivrttih syat tato nistha rucis tatah

athasaktis tato bhavas tatah premabhyudancati

sadhakanam ayam premnah pradurbhave bhavet kramah

 

"In the beginning one must have a preliminary desire for self-realization. This will bring one to the stage of trying to associate with persons who are spiritually elevated. In the next stage one becomes initiated by an elevated spiritual master, and under his instruction the neophyte devotee begins the process of devotional service. By execution of devotional service under the guidance of the spiritual master, one becomes free from all material attachment, attains steadiness in self-realization, and acquires a taste for hearing about the Absolute Personality of Godhead, Sri Krsna. This taste leads one further forward to attachment for Krsna consciousness, which is matured in bhava, or the preliminary stage of transcendental love of God. Real love for God is called prema, the highest perfectional stage of life." In the prema stage there is constant engagement in the transcendental loving service of the Lord. So, by the slow process of devotional service, under the guidance of the bona fide spiritual master, one can attain the highest stage, being freed from all material attachment, from the fearfulness of one's individual spiritual personality, and from the frustrations resulting from void philosophy. Then one can ultimately attain to the abode of the Supreme Lord."

His Divine Grace Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

Bg. As It Is 4.10

 

In the introduction to Sri Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu of Srila Rupa Goswami we can read:

 

(II) SADHU SANGA: Company of Sadhus or Saints. This means an individuals eager desire to be in the company of a Sadhu in order to learn the methods of spiritual practices for God realization alone and for no other purpose. But who is a Sadhu?

 

According to Bhagavatam, Canto XI, Chap. 11, Slokas 29 to 31, the following are the qualities of a genuine Sadhu or Saint: A Sadhu is kind; he cherishes animosity toward none; he smilingly endures even the bitterest miseries; he loves Truth as the vein-blood of his life; he never allows any evil thought to pollute his mind; he looks upon all with equal love and compassion; he does not entertain any kind of mundane desires to darken his mental quantum; he is self-controlled, amiable and pure in character; he remains farthest from any attempt to accumulate for his future subsistence and does not beg anything form anybody; he is abstentious and peaceful; he is steady in his mind; he depends absolutely on the Supreme Lord Sri Krsna, and remains in constant remembrance of the Lord; he is patient, solemn, magnanimous and undisturbed even by utmost provocations and turmoils; he has control over hunger, thirst, lamentations ,infatuation, birth and death; he does never aspire after respect for himself, but is always respectful to others; he is friendly to all; his heart is full of compassion for others; he is fully conversant with the real nature of God; and he is erudite. To keep company with such a one in person, thought and through discussions is Sadhu-sanga.

Introduction

Srila Hrydaya Bon Maharaja

 

The minimization of this important principle of the vapuh association and receiving diksa from a fully self realized sad guru is ever present in present day iskcon and its ecclesiastical appointments. There is no need to unduly criticize sincere preachers, but one must stil speak the truth, satyam eva jayate, with regard to distortions of gaudiya-siddhanta. Srila Prabhupada wrote:

 

"In this verse Srila Rupa Gosvami advises the devotee to be intelligent enough to distinguish between the kanistha-adhikari, madhyama-adhikari and uttama-adhikari. The devotee should also know his own position and should not try to imitate a devotee situated on a higher platform. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura has given some practical hints to the effect that an uttama-adhikari Vaisnava can be recognized by his ability to convert many fallen souls to Vaisnavism. One should not become a spiritual master unless he has attained the platform of uttama-adhikari. A neophyte Vaisnava or a Vaisnava situated on the intermediate platform can also accept disciples, but such disciples must be on the same platform, and it should be understood that they cannot advance very well toward the ultimate goal of life under his insufficient guidance. Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhikari as a spiritual master."

 

Nectar of Instruction

Purport Verse 5

 

I didn't read anyone on this thread unduly criticising anyone. The problem is that if you simply repeat what Srila Prabhupada has written you will find yourself philosophicaly opposed to the current managers of His Divine Grace's external mission, the iskcon inc.

[Guest guest]

Vijaya: Prabhu, please give us some detailed instructions regarding Sri-guru-padasraya.

Babaji: When the disciple has become qualified for undivided krsna-bhakti, he should take shelter at the feet of Sri Guru, and by coming close to the qualified guru, he will learn krsna-tattva. The jiva becomes qualified for krsna-bhakti only when he is faithful. By the influence of pious activities (sukrti) performed in previous births, he hears hari-katha from the mouths of sadhus, and a strong faith in Krsna arises in him. This is called sraddha. Together with sraddha, the mood of taking shelter (saranagati) also appears to some extent. Sraddha and saranagati are almost the same tattva.The disciple is qualified for undivided (ananya) bhakti if he has developed the strong faith: “Krsna-bhakti is certainly the best and highest attainment in this world. Thus I will accept krsna-bhakti as my duty and to that end I will do whatever is favorable for it, and reject all activities that are unfavorable. Krsna is my sole protector, and I accept Him as my exclusive guardian. I am very poor, wretched and destitute, and my independent desire is not beneficial for me. Thus following Krsna’s desire exclusively is beneficial for me in all ways.” When the jiva attains that qualification, he becomes anxious to hear instructions on bhakti, and accepts shelter at the lotus feet of the sad-guru. That is to say, he becomes his disciple, and accepts instructions (siksa) on bhakti.

 

tad-vijnanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet

samit-panih srotriyam brahma-nistham

Mundaka Upanisad (1.2.12)

 

In order to obtain knowledge of that bhagavad-vastu (the absolute truth concerning Sri Bhagavan), one should approach sad-guru, carrying fire wood for sacrifice. The qualification of sad-guru is that he is well versed in the Vedas, absorbed in the Absolute Truth (brahma-jnana) and devoted to the service of Bhagavan.

 

acaryavan puruso veda

Chandogya Upanisad (6.14.2)

 

He who takes shelter of sad-guru comes to know that parabrahma.

 

The qualities of a sad-guru (bona fide guru) and the sat-sisya (bona fide disciple) are given in detail in the Sri Hari-bhakti-vilasa (1.23.64).

 

The essence is that only a person with pure character and sraddha is qualified to become a sisya and only that person who is endowed with suddha-bhakti, who knows bhakti-tattva, and is of spotless character, simple, without greed, free from Mayavada philosophy, and expert in all devotional activities is qualified as sad-guru. A brahmana adorned with these qualities, and who is honored by the whole society, can be guru of all the other varnas. If there is no brahmana, the disciple can accept a guru who is situated in a higher varna than himself. Apart from these considerations of varnasrama, the principal consideration is that whoever knows krsna-tattva can be accepted as guru. If a person born in one of the higher varnas – brahmana, ksatriya and vaisya – finds the above mentioned qualities present in a person born of a brahmana family and accepts him as guru, then he can get some facilities and favors in a society that respects the higher varna. Factually,though, only a worthy bhakta can be guru. The rules for testing the guru and disciple, as well as the determination of time, are given in the sastras. The purport is that the guru will bestow his mercy upon the disciple when the guru perceives the disciple to be qualified, and when the disciple has faith in the guru, understanding him to be a suddha-bhakta.

There are two kinds of guru: diksa-guru and siksa-guru. One has to accept diksa from the diksa-guru; at the same time, one also has to take siksa concerning arcana (Deity worship). There is one diksa-guru, but there can be several siksa-gurus. The diksa-guru is also competent to act as siksa-guru.

Vijaya: Since the diksa-guru is not to be given up, how will Gurudeva give siksa if he is not competent of giving sat-siska?

Babaji: Before accepting a guru, one should examine him to see that he is expert in the tattva spoken in the Vedas and has realized para-tattva. If he is, then he will certainly be capable of giving all kinds of instructions about the Absolute Truth. Normally, there is no question of giving up the diksa-guru. There are two circumstances, however, in which he should be abandoned. First, if the disciple accepted the guru without examining the guru’s knowledge of the Absolute Truth, his Vaisnava qualities, and his other qualifications, and second, if after initiation, the guru does not perform any function, he should be given up. Many passages in sastras give evidence for this:

 

yo vyaktir nyaya-rahitam anyayena srnoti yah

tav ubhau narakam ghoram vrajatah kalam aksayam

Hari-bhakti-vilasa (1.62)

 

He who poses as an acarya, but gives false instructions that are opposed to the sattvata-sastras, will reside in a terrible hell for an unlimited period of time, and so will the misguided disciple who mistakenly listens to such a false guru.

 

guror apy avaliptasya karyakaryam ajanatam

utpatha-pratipannasya parityago vidhiyate

Mahabharata Udyoga-parva (179.25)

and Narada-païcarätra (1.10.20)

 

It is one’s duty to give up a guru who cannot teach the disciple what he should do and what he should not do, and who takes the wrong path, either because of bad association or because he is opposed to Vaisnavas.

 

avaisnavopadistena mantrena nirayam vrajet

punas ca vidhina samyag grahayed vaisnavad guroh

Hari-bhakti-vilasa (4.144)

One goes to hell if he accepts mantras from an avaisnavaguru, that is, one who is associating with women, and who is devoid of krsna-bhakti. Therefore, according to the rules of sastra, one should take mantras again from a Vaisnava guru.

 

The second circumstance in which one may reject the guru is if he was a Vaisnava who knew the spiritual truth and principles when the disciple accepted him, but who later became a Mayavadi or an enemy of the Vaisnavas by the influence of asat-sanga. It is one’s duty to give up such a guru. However, it is not proper to give up a guru whose knowledge is meager, if he is not a Mayavadi or an enemy of the Vaisnavas, and is not attached to sinful activity. In that case, one should still respect him as guru, and with his permission, one should go to another Vaisnava who is more knowledgeable, and serve that Vaisnava and take instructions from him.

 

Excerpted from Ch. 20 Jaiva Dharma

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura

 

[Puru_Das]

Suggested reading for non-sectarian thinkers.

Krishtianity

by Asamordhva Das

When votes count more than theology.

http://bvml.org/contemporary/Krishtianity.htm

[Guest guest]

"The minds full of rubbish will only see the rubbish and will love talking about rubish constantly"

 

so do not see rubbish in those who are not satisfacted by iskcon

[krsna]

A Conversation Between Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvwati Thakura and Professor Albert E. Suthers

 

 

 

East Meets West

A Conversation Between

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur

and Ohio State University's

Professor Albert E. Suthers

 

Professor Suthers was in Bombay doing research for his course in comparative religions at Ohio State University. In January of 1929 he went to Calcutta to meet Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati, who was at that time in Krishnanagar. The professor heard from him for three consecutive days.

 

Prof. Suthers: Your Holiness seems to have taken a biased view in saying that the good moral precepts of Christ come nowhere near “the morality of amorous love of the devotees of Krishna”.

 

Beyond Secular Morality

 

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta: Certainly not. We claim to be greater and better Christians than Westerners. Our judgement is not restricted only to secular morality. The morality of the object of spiritual love surpasses secular morality. If Christian morality is perfected thereby, then it may be said to receive proper nourishment. To a pure soul that remains situated on that transcendentally moral plane of love, the secular moralities appear reduced to the smallness of pygmies. But there is not found any feeling of apathy, nor attachment towards these secular moralities. On the other hand, all moralities wait like maids behind the spiritual moralities to become glorified, being permitted to serve the Lord of transcendental love. The character of a culturist of spiritual love is never devoid of morality. One hostile to morality or fallen from it can never be a spiritual man. In the blaze of the teaching of Sri Chaitanya Deva’s ideal, it has been propagated that dissoluteness [licentiousness] is not devotion. Its palpable evidence is found when we reflect on the character of Sri Chaitanya Deva or the followers at His heel. The people of the realm of the secular morality concerned with the worldly enjoyments and their renunciation will not be able to grasp in their tiniest brains how the amorous sports of Krishna are fostered by the climax of morality and adored in the highest degree by all the morality of the universe. They are so much glorified by the noble clan of such high personages of strictly continent character as the devotees of Sri Chaitanya Deva like Sri Rupa, Sri Sanatana, Sri Raghunatha Dasa, Sri Raghunatha Bhatta, Sri Gopala Bhatta, etc.

 

Prof. Suthers: How can your Holiness’s statements be reconciled with the descriptions that are found about Krishna’s amorous sports?

 

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta: Krishna’s amorous sports are not temporal like the lustful sports of dramatic heroes and heroines like Romeo and Juliet, or even ideal spouses. Lust as prevalent in this world is only a mental passion, but the lust of the transcendental region has its own form. Here lust is always goaded by the enemy passion, whereas in the transcendental region of Krishna, the loveliness of the spiritual body of Krishna ever drives the lust for Krishna, which takes form as sublimated love or the desire to gratify the immaculate senses of Krishna. The conductor of the worldly lust is the enemy (passion), and the conductor of love is Krishna. It is the amorous sports of Krishna that have appropriateness; but there is no such consistency in the lust born of the body and mind of the jiva (living entity). Krishna’s amorous sports are not to be called indecent, because it is Krishna who is the only one unrivalled enjoyer, embodiment of the real truth, and the spiritual despot.

 

Prof. Suthers: I have been truly astonished to hear from your Holiness these mysteries of the vaisnava philosophy and their scientific analysis with the most reasonable arguments. I could not even imagine before that in the vaisnava philosophy there are such excellent solutions, corroboration and elucidation of the problems of Indian philosophy.

 

[vijay]

That link about kristianity, i think its not very accurate it interprets "one moon" as prabhupad's desire for one acarya, when there are many quotes against this and prabhupda even critices his god brothers harshly for trying to install one acarya.

 

 

You are right about Sridhara Maharaja's genuineness. But in my opinion he is the best of the lot. He is my old friend, at least he executes the regulative principles of devotional service. I do not wish to discuss about activities of my Godbrothers but it is a fact they have no life for preaching work. All are satisfied with a place for residence in the name of a temple, they engage disciples to get foodstuff by transcendental devices and eat and sleep. They have no idea or brain how to broacast the cult of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. My Guru Maharaja used to lament many times for this reason and he thought if one man at least had understood the principle of preaching then his mission would achieve success. In the latter days of my Guru Maharaja he was very disgusted. Actually, he left this world earlier, otherwise he would have continued to live for more years. Still he requested his disciples to form a strong Governing body for preaching the cult of Caitanya Mahaprabhu. He never recommended anyone to be acarya of the Gaudiya Math. But Sridhara Maharaja is responsible for disobeying this order of Guru Maharaja, and he and others who are already dead unnecessarily thought that there must be one acarya. If Guru Maharaja could have seen someone who was qualified at that time to be acarya he would have mentioned. Because on the night before he passed away he talked of so many things, but never mentioned an acarya. His idea was acarya was not to be nominated amongst the governing body. He said openly you make a GBC and conduct the mission. So his idea was amongst the members of GBC who would come out successful and self effulgent acarya would be automatically selected. So Sridhara Maharaja and his two associate gentlemen unauthorizedly selected one acarya and later it proved a failure. The result is now everyone is claiming to be acarya even though they may be kanistha adhikari with no ability to preach. In some of the camps the acarya is being changed three times a year. Therefore we may not commit the same mistake in our ISKCON camp. Actually amongst my Godbrothers no one is qualified to become acarya. So it is better not to mix with my Godbrothers very intimately because instead of inspiring our students and disciples they may sometimes pollute them. This attempt was made previously by them, especially Madhava Maharaja and Tirtha Maharaja and Bon Maharaja but somehow or other I saved the situation. This is going on. We shall be very careful about them and not mix with them. This is my instruction to you all. They cannot help us in our movement, but they are very competent to harm our natural progress. So we must be very careful about them

 

HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

 

So prabhpada commiting offences against guru's then? he isnt allowing his diciples to associate closely with his god brothers isnt that offencive shouldnt you guys speak out on that? You are after all defenders of pure devotees?

 

I dont understand why in an organisation its not good to have gurus athorised to iniate? Its not suppose to be a declaration that this is a uttama adhikari (as it was in the past) The system avoids a free for all, the gay guys recognise a 'pure devotee' who says gays are okay or something on those lines, the feminists find a guru who adjusts for time place circumstance over riding what prabhupada said, so the system stops a free for all where anyone who thinks they recognise a guru when clearly not being allowed to initiate under iskcon. In a large society people may not be so educated to recognise self effulgence so athoristion acts like a minimum safety check. Or am i being naive?

 

Anyway im not going to get in to this debate again yes iskcon has made mistakes so have gaudiya math gurus, I hope you advance well in your krishna conciousness.

 

 

 

[vijay]

"Yes.it will be like Krsnianity, where the letter of the ISKCON Law will be scrupulously adhered to over and above the spirit of Mahaprabhu's teachings which advocate Sri Krsna sankirtanam . "

 

Okay your not satisfied with iskcon well go somewhere where you think you can reach krishna, displaying your dissatisfaction in unconstructive comments as above with iskcon isnt going to help anyone (not saying that was you but this is my point), rejecting things not favaroble to krishna conciousness is what rupa goswami advices unconstructive critism is rubbish and not favourable to anything except our egos.

 

Anyway not going to try and stress this simple point anymore

[Pankaja_Dasa]

 

 

 

 

Remember who Srila Prabhupada IS. There in NO contradiction when Archarya says that some of His Godbrothers are doing this etc, then at same time praising them. Exclude BR Sridhara Maharaja because Prabhupada considered him Siksa Guru. So how can you demand anything from Siksa Guru you can only request. Even then when you look at letters Prabhupada always requested his Godbrothers to co-operate which most and all of them did.

 

What about some of the disciples of Prabhupada similar we cannot hold anything against them for there fall-down before and after,, that is Blaspheme on highest level.

 

So anybody saying Prabhupada is doing anything wrong is wrong again. Prabhupada only aim {hello books} was to get people to become KC. Not this quoting letters of which there are maybe about 10 or 15.

 

I think in those years everything was going on and His Divine Grace was always careful. To say after all these years these instructions still stand is neither here nor there. I have studied them. People with other motives put them down your throat and say GM don't know Siddhanta. So there you go..

 

You said about ISKCON and people are criticizing. Tell me where somebody in Gaudiya Matha said anything which was not constructive criticism. Just take with pinch of salt. You don't get praise often, but when you do from Pure devotee then you should look up and Goloka! Narayana Maharaja and others are trying to help now. Iskcon and the people who manage it and not born yesterday. They were in 1970's. Now its different story. Haribol!

 

[krsna]

Organised Religion by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura

 

Sri Krsna manifest His eternal birth the pure cognitive essence of the serving soul who is located above all mundane limitations, King Kamsa is the typical aggressive empiricist, ever on the lookout for the appearance of the truth for the purpose of suppressing Him before He has time to develop. This is no exaggeration of the real connotation of the consistent empiric position. The materialist has a natural repugnance for the transcendent. He is disposed to link that faith in the incomprehensible is the parent of dogmatism and hypocrisy in the guise of religion. He is also equally under the delusion that there is no real dividing line between the material and the spiritual, he is strengthened in his delusion by the interpretation of scriptures by persons who are like-minded with himself. This includes all the lexicographic interpreters.

 

The lexicographical interpretation is upheld by Kamsa as the real scientific explanation of the scriptures, and is perfectly in keeping with his dread of and aversion for the transcendental. These lexicographical interpreters are employed by Kamsa in putting down the first suspected appearance of any genuine faith in the transcendental. King Kamsa knows very well that if the faith in the transcendental is once allowed to grow it is sure to upset all his empiric prospects.

 

There is historical ground for such misgivings. Accordingly if the empiric domination is to be preserved in tact it would be necessary not to lose a moment to put down the transcendental heresy the instant it threatens to make its appearance in earnest. King Kamsa, acting on this traditional fear is never slow to take the scientific precaution of deputing empiric teachers of the scriptures, backed by the resources of dictionary and grammar and all empiric subtleties to put down, by the show of specious arguments based on hypothetical principles, the true interpretation of the eternal religion revealed by the scriptures.

 

Kamsa is strongly persuaded that faith in the transcendental can be effectively put down by empiricism if prompt and decisive measures are adopted at the very outset. He attributes the failure of atheism in the past to the neglect of the adoption of such measures before the theistic fallacy has had time to spread among the fanatical masses. But Kamsa is found to count without his host. When Krsna is born He is found to be able to upset all sinister designs against those who are apprised by Himself of His advent. the apparently causeless faith displayed by persons irrespective of age, sex and condition may confound all rabid empiricist who are on principle adverse to the Absolute Truth Whose appearance is utterly incompatible with the domination of empiricism.

 

But no adverse efforts of the empiricists, whose rule seems till then to be perfectly well-established over the minds of the deluded souls of this world can dissuade any person from exclusively in following the Truth when He actually manifests His birth in the pure cognitive essence of the soul. Putana is the slayer of all infants. The baby, when he or she comes out of the mother's womb, falls at once into the hands of the pseudo-teachers of religion. These teachers are successful in forestalling the attempts of the good preceptor whose help is never sought by the atheists of this world at the baptisms of their babies. This is ensured by the arrangements of all established churches of the world. They have been successful only in supplying watchful Putanas for effecting the spiritual destruction of persons from the moment of their birth with the cooperation of their worldly parents. No human contrivance can prevent these Putanas from obtaining possession of the pulpits. This is due to the general prevalence of atheistic disposition in the people of this world.

 

The church that has the best chance of survival in this damned world is that of atheism under the convenient guise of theism. The churches have always proved the staunchest upholders of the grossest form of worldliness from which even the worst of non-ecclesiastical criminals are found to recoil.

 

It is not from any deliberate opposition to the ordained clergy that these observations are made. The original purpose of the established churches of the world may not always be objectionable. But no stable religious arrangement for instructing the masses has yet been successful. The Supreme Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, in pursuance of the teachings of the scriptures enjoins all absence of conventionalism for the teachers of the eternal religion. It does not follow that the mechanical adoption of the unconventional life by any person will make him a fit teacher of religion. Regulation is necessary for controlling the inherent worldliness of conditional souls.

 

But no mechanical regulation has any value, even for such a purpose. The bona-fide teacher of religion is neither any product of nor the favourer of, any mechanical system. In his hands no system has likewise, the chance of degenerating into a lifeless arrangement. The mere pursuit of fixed doctrines and fixed liturgies cannot hold a person to the true spirit of doctrine or liturgy. The idea of an organised church in an intelligible form, indeed, marks the close of the living spiritual movement. The great ecclesiastical establishments are the dikes and the dams to retain the current that cannot be held by any such contrivances. They, indeed, indicate a desire on the part of the masses to exploit a spiritual movement for their own purpose. They also unmistakably indicate the end of the absolute and unconventional guidance of the bona-fide spiritual teacher. The people of this world understand preventive systems, they have no idea at all of the unprevented positive eternal life. Neither can there be any earthy contrivance for the permanent preservation of the life eternal on this mundane plane on the popular scale.

 

Those are, therefore, greatly mistaken who are disposed to look forward to the amelioration of the worldly state in any worldly sense from the worldly success of any really spiritual movement. It is these worldly expectants who become the patrons of the mischievous race of the pseudo-teachers of religion, the Putanas, whose congenial function is to stifle the theistic disposition at the very moment of its suspected appearance. But the real theistic disposition can never be stifled by the efforts of those Putanas. The Putanas have power only over the atheist. It is a thankless but salutary task which they perform for the benefit of their unwilling victims.

 

But as soon as theistic disposition proper makes its appearance in the pure cognitive essence, of the awakened soul, the Putanas are decisively silenced at the very earliest stage of their encounter with new-born Krsna. The would-be slayer is herself slain. This is the reward of the negative services that the Putanas unwittingly render to the cause of theism by strangling all hypocritical demonstrations against their own hypocrisy. But Putana does not at all like to receive her reward in only form which involves the total destruction of her wrong personality. King Kamsa also does not like to lose the services of the most trusted of his agents. The effective silencing of the whole race of pseudo-teachers of religion is the first clear indication of the appearance of the Absolute on the mundane plane. The bona-fide teacher of the Absolute, heralds the Advent of Krsna by his uncompromising campaign against the pseudo-teachers of religion

 

[theist]

Hare Krsna Puru das. Nice to have your enlivening presence once again.

 

I have a question on this point. It comes from my position in the peanut gallery but what effects the overall Krsna conscious movement effects us all.

 

Why are Narayana Maharaja's students so seemingly obsessed with ISKCON? I would hope by now you folks would have several temples of your own in the US and elsewhere. Centers where anyone not fully satisfied with ISKCON could come to.

 

By going to ISKCON temples and raising such issues repeatedly, almost compulsively, (I have experienced this) You only harden their stand against you as they perceive themselves to be under a type of seige. Not saying they are but they perceive it like that and react accordingly. This only makes them builder thicker walls and level more aparadha towards Narayana Maharaja thus compounding the problem that you have nicely identified.

 

I know I as an outsider I have not accepted many invitations to hear him speak simply because of the perceived pressure from his students. Not from any false sense of loyalty to ISKCON but because I will not listen to people telling me that Prabhupada is not living in his books. That's my choice and one I needn't defend to anyone.

 

When given the chance to hear him speak in Vrndavan in 2001 I went. If the opputunity is there some may go and some may not but at least all the slly rhetoric could be laid to rest. Just start your own centers open to the public.

 

Hare Krsna