What will Gaudiya Vaisnavism be like in 2000 years?

[Puru_Das]

 

I dont understand why in an organisation its not good to have gurus athorised to iniate? Its not suppose to be a declaration that this is a uttama adhikari (as it was in the past)

 

 

Because then you are ignoring the clear instructions of ISKCON's founder-acrya, Srila Rupa Goswami,Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura and our whole guru varga regarding guru tattva. You simply have a society of the blind leading the blind. You get a society that makes real sadu-sanga "illegal", and misrepresents how anyone really makes spiritual progress, which is by guru krpa and "adau-sraddha tatah sadhu-sanga" and by following Bg. 4.34.

 

 

The system avoids a free for all, the gay guys recognise a 'pure devotee' who says gays are okay or something on those lines, the feminists find a guru who adjusts for time place circumstance over riding what prabhupada said, so the system stops a free for all where anyone who thinks they recognise a guru when clearly not being allowed to initiate under iskcon. In a large society people may not be so educated to recognise self effulgence so athoristion acts like a minimum safety check. Or am i being naive

 

 

Then everyone pick from a list the "guru" that suits his own mundane conception, instead of connecting to someone who can actually deliver him from birth and death. In these verses from Cc. such material adjustment is rejected by Srila Krsnadas Kaviraja Gosvami:

 

TEXT 9

 

TEXT

 

keha ta' acarya ajnaya, keha ta' svatantra

sva-mata kalpana kare daiva-paratantra

 

SYNONYMS

 

keha ta'--some; acarya--the spiritual master; ajnaya--upon His order; keha ta'--some; sva-tantra--independently; sva-mata--their own opinions; kalpana kare--they concoct; daiva-paratantra--under the spell of maya.

 

TRANSLATION

 

Some of the disciples strictly accepted the orders of the acarya, and others deviated, independently concocting their own opinions under the spell of daivi-maya.

 

PURPORT

 

This verse describes the beginning of a schism. When disciples do not stick to the principle of accepting the order of their spiritual master, immediately there are two opinions. Any opinion different from the opinion of the spiritual master is useless. One cannot infiltrate materially concocted ideas into spiritual advancement. That is deviation. There is no scope for adjusting spiritual advancement to material ideas.

 

TEXT 10

 

TEXT

 

acaryera mata yei, sei mata sara

tanra ajna langhi' cale, sei ta' asara

 

SYNONYMS

 

acaryera--of the spiritual master (Advaita Prabhu); mata--opinion; yei--what is; sei--that; mata--opinion; sara--active principle; tanra--his; ajna--order; langhi'--transgressing; cale--becomes; sei--that; ta'--however; asara--useless.

 

TRANSLATION

 

The order of the spiritual master is the active principle in spiritual life. Anyone who disobeys the order of the spiritual master immediately becomes useless.

 

PURPORT

 

Here is the opinion of Srila Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami. Persons who strictly follow the orders of the spiritual master are useful in executing the will of the Supreme, whereas persons who deviate from the strict order of the spiritual master are useless.

 

TEXT 11

 

TEXT

 

asarera name ihan nahi prayojana

bheda janibare kari ekatra ganana

 

SYNONYMS

 

asarera--of the useless persons; name--in their name; ihan--in this connection; nahi--there is no; prayojana--use; bheda--differences; janibare--to know; kari--I do; ekatra--in one list; ganana--counting.

 

TRANSLATION

 

There is no need to name those who are useless. I have mentioned them only to distinguish them from the useful devotees.

 

Cc. Adi lila Ch. 12, Txt 9-11

 

 

Naive perhaps, but more likely you've simply been told what to think by individuals with an institutional agenda. You should try to take your understanding guru tattva from what His Divine Grace has written in his books, and not what the gbc legislates.

 

The iskcon gbc can't change gaudiya siddhanta regarding ekanda guru tattva simply to suite its "management" of an institution. That is the very thing that His Divine Grace objected to when the GM gbc held elections for the next acarya. The GM member who did not follow SBSST strictly then split into two camps, one in favor of Ananta Vasudeva and the other Vilasa Tirtha Maharaja. If you read Srila Prabhupada's letter to Rupanuga carefully you can see that what he objected to was the election of any individual to be the next acarya of the GM by their gbc.

". . . He(SBSST) never recommended anyone to be acarya of the Gaudiya Math. . . If Guru Maharaja could have seen someone who was qualified at that time to be acarya he would have mentioned. Because on the night before he passed away he talked of so many things, but never mentioned an acarya. His idea was acarya was not to be nominated amongst the governing body. He said openly you make a GBC and conduct the mission. So his idea was amongst the members of GBC who would come out successful and self effulgent acarya would be automatically selected."

 

He thought that the next acaryas would manifest by self effulgence, as they indeed did in the many missions that

sprang from the GM, when its leadership deviated from vanih given by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura. Ananta Vasudeva wrote a book that minimized the importance of our guru varga, and proposed that Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu had established a fifth sampradaya, and was not actually in line with Madhvacarya by dint of siksa. Sria Bhakti Prajnan Kesava Maharaja (Srila Prabhupada's sannyasa guru-and senior godbrother) defeated such proposal in a book and articles of his own, in defense of our sampradaya's connection to the Madhva sampradaya. A similar defense of our connection to Madhva sampradaya was made by Srila Baladeva Vidyabhusana in Jaipura,many years earlier, when the Ramvadis of the Sri sampradaya made a similar claim,that our guru varag was not connected to any bona fide sampradaya or to Madhvacarya. They also objected to the worship of Radha next to Sri Krsna in the Govindaji mandira, and claimed the Gaudiya's had no commentary on the Vedanta-sutras and could not be accepted as bona fide. Baladeva Vidyabusana compiled Govinda-bhasya and defeated all of their arguments.

 

You should try to understand why Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura did not appoint any one individual. He didn't appoint Abhaya Charana Das either, and his self effulgence as an acarya certainly became an apparant fact some years later, did it not?

 

What Srila Prabhupad objected to in the GM managment ,after the maha samadhi of his gurudeva, is more fully explained in the purport of his translation of Srila Krsnadas Kaviraja's Cc. Adi lila Ch. 12,TXT 8.

 

TEXT 8

 

TEXT

 

prathame ta' eka-mata acaryera gana

pache dui-mata haila daivera karana

 

SYNONYMS

 

prathame--in the beginning; ta'--however; eka-mata--one opinion; acaryera--of Advaita Acarya; gana--followers; pache--later; dui-mata--two opinions; haila--became; daivera--of providence; karana--the cause.

 

TRANSLATION

 

At first all the followers of Advaita Acarya shared a single opinion. But later they followed two different opinions, as ordained by providence.

 

PURPORT

 

The words daivera karana indicate that by dint of providence, or by God's will, the followers of Advaita Acarya divided into two parties. Such disagreement among the disciples of one acarya is also found among the members of the Gaudiya Matha. In the beginning, during the presence of Om Visnupada Paramahamsa Parivrajakacarya Astottara-sata Sri Srimad Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura Prabhupada, all the disciples worked in agreement; but just after his disappearance, they disagreed. One party strictly followed the instructions of Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, but another group created their own concoction about executing his desires. Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, at the time of his departure, requested all his disciples to form a governing body and conduct missionary activities cooperatively. He did not instruct a particular man to become the next acarya. But just after his passing away, his leading secretaries made plans, without authority, to occupy the post of acarya, and they split into two factions over who the next acarya would be. Consequently, both factions were asara, or useless, because they had no authority, having disobeyed the order of the spiritual master. Despite the spiritual master's order to form a governing body and execute the missionary activities of the Gaudiya Matha, the two unauthorized factions began litigation that is still going on after forty years with no decision.

Therefore, we do not belong to any faction. But because the two parties, busy dividing the material assets of the Gaudiya Matha institution, stopped the preaching work, we took up the mission of Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura and Bhaktivinoda Thakura to preach the cult of Caitanya Mahaprabhu all over the world, under the protection of all the predecessor acaryas, and we find that our humble attempt has been successful. We followed the principles especially explained by Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura in his commentary on the Bhagavad-gita verse vyavasayatmika buddhir ekeha kuru-nandana. According to this instruction of Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura, it is the duty of a disciple to follow strictly the orders of his spiritual master. The secret of success in advancement in spiritual life is the firm faith of the disciple in the orders of his spiritual master. The Vedas confirm this:

 

yasya deve para bhaktir

yatha deve tatha gurau

tasyaite kathita hy arthah

prakasante mahatmanah

 

"To one who has staunch faith in the words of the spiritual master and the words of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the secret of success in Vedic knowledge is revealed." The Krsna consciousness movement is being propagated according to this principle, and therefore our preaching work is going on successfully, in spite of the many impediments offered by antagonistic demons, because we are getting positive help from our previous acaryas. One must judge every action by its result. The members of the self-appointed acarya's party who occupied the property of the Gaudiya Matha are satisfied, but they could make no progress in preaching. Therefore by the result of their actions one should know that they are asara, or useless, whereas the success of the ISKCON party, the International Society for Krishna Consciousness, which strictly follows guru and Gauranga, is increasing daily all over the world. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura wanted to print as many books as possible and distribute them all over the world. We have tried our best in this connection, and we are getting results beyond our expectations.

Cc. Adi lila Ch. 12, Txt 8

 

In this purport Srila Prabhupada makes a very strong statement against the second faction who wanted the acarya of the GM appointed without the sanction of its founder, His Divine Grace Sri Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura. So what difference is there in what the GM gbc did and what the current iskcon gbc is doing by rubber stamping individuals who are not necessarily uttama adhikari, and cannot give sufficient guidance toward the ultimate goal of krsn prema, or real diksa? Not much! The leading secretaries of the GM deviated from the principle of ekanda guru tattva to elect their choice for acarya, and the current gbc has similarly flip flopped on the guru issue for years, coming to no real understanding that guru is self effulgent and either, a direct manifestation of Lord Nityananda or an eternal maideservat of Srimate Radharani, but not any conditioned soul elected by another group of conditioned souls. Read in Srila Prabhupada's Cc. Adi lila 1. txt 35-48 for his clear declarations regarding guru tattva. Read Cc. Madhya 15.108 to get some understanding of the importance and necessity for real diksa from a sad guru.

 

You should also know that the objections Srila Prabhupada took to GM matters were published in the periodical published by Srila Bhakti Prajnan Kesava Maharaja in Mathura. Read this excerpt from

"MY SIKSA GURU AND PRIYA BANDHU"

 

Remembrances Of His Divine Grace

Srila A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

Compiled from selected interviews, lectures and writings

bySrila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja

http://bvml.org/SBNM/msgapb.htm

 

 

EDITORIAL SEVA

 

In 1953, our magazines 'Gaudiya-patrika' and 'Bhagavata-patrika' were started. Our Gurudeva requested Abhay Caranaravinda Prabhu, "I want to establish a publication in Bengali and other languages. I especially want you to write articles for that." Earlier he had written articles for the Harmonist, and now he continued to write many wonderful essays, Gita purports, etc. He wrote so marvelously that everyone praised him. He challenged all who were opposed to pure bhakti at that time, especially the 'Murgi Mission'. He called the Ramakrsna Mission 'the Murgi Mission' because the members ate chicken. In fact, they took flesh, eggs and many abominable things. Vivekananda and his Ramakrsna Mission were very prominent in those days. They were renowned by the public who said, "Oh, these are such high-class devotees. In all of India only they are following the Vedas, and all others are not. The Gaudiya Mission and others are not Vedantic." Abhay Caranaravinda Prabhu wrote this one particular two-part article about the murgis. He began with the first part, and when the second part was also printed all were astonished and convinced. It was like a drama. Everyone requested him to write more articles like these which called for the reform of religious institutions and samskaras .

 

Later Abhay Caranaravinda Prabhu wrote another dramatic article - this time about some of the leaders in the Gaudiya Matha. The article explained how the institution was coming apart after Srila Prabhupada's departure. Grhasthas were giving up their wives and loving others' wives; others' wives were then loving others. Now, in the name of developing the mission, some were putting all the money in their pockets. Sannyasis, even those who had been with their Prabhupada, were making buildings and sending all the money to their sons in their former homes to go to high school and university, or to go to England and America to study law and other things.

 

He wrote about this situation and the first part was published in our Bhagavata-patrika and Gaudiya-patrika. At once a big storm broke out in the whole Gaudiya Mission. Although only about three pages were printed, letters began to come from many Gaudiya Mathas. It was like a revolution. Our Guru Maharaja and Abhay Caranaravinda Prabhu were talking and smiling very secretly together. Prabhu said, "We should publish more of it. Why not?" Guru Maharaja was also in favor of publishing it.

 

However, many of the Godbrothers exclaimed, "Oh, Kesava Maharaja, what are you doing, printing this? Then everyone will know and all will criticize the Gaudiya Matha. These are our private family matters." Even Pujyapada Srila Sridhara Maharaja, who was highly respected by all, was consulted. Many Godbrothers came to Mathura at that time and Abhay Caranaravinda Prabhu was residing here in our matha. Srila Tirtha Maharaja and other devotees asked, "What are you going to do? If you print this then our present institution will be smashed." Guru Maharaja and Prabhu were smiling and asking each other, "Oh, what to do?" But when requested by so many Godbrothers they decided, "Accha. Later on we will see, but for now we should obey their orders."

 

At that time the president of India was Dr. Radhakrishnan. He was very scholarly and his English was quite high-class, but he was world famous as a very bold mayavadi. He wrote an article in English saying that in Krsna's body the soul was there, and that soul was God, but Krsna's body was not God. He said that, as with our body and soul, there was also some difference between Krsna's body and soul.

 

Guru Maharaja was not here then, but Abhay Caranaravinda Prabhu was here. So he wrote a very powerful article in response. He took many examples from here and there with strong quotations. He declared, 'Those who speak like this are rascals. There is no difference between deha and dehi, possession and possessor. All His qualities, pastimes, and names are transcendental. If one does not have a very pure and realized guru, he cannot understand this idea. You have no guru and you are reading sastra yourself. Just as Gautama Buddha became sunyavadi, you are just like that. At some time in South India you met with the very renowned Sankaracarya's teachings, but you have not read Ramanuja, Madhvacarya, Caitanya Mahaprabhu, and Jiva Gosvamióyou have never read Baladeva Vidyabhusana. You should try to know what is acintya-bheda-abheda. Do not be sectarian. You should be very liberal to us because you are an authority of India, the President. But you are not an authority in religion. You will have to learn something from us".

 

Prabhu then challenged him to discuss all these issues face-to-face in any big council. He asked me to translate his article into Hindi for publication and it was printed in both of our magazines. He also wrote it in English and sent it to the Parliament of India, addressing it to the President, Mr. Nehru and the others. Their secretary received it and said 'Thank-you', but Dr. Radhakrishnan never accepted that challenge. He had nothing to reply because all of Prabhu's evidence had come from the Vedas, Upanisads, and from other bona-fide scriptures. In this way Abhay Caranaravinda Prabhu was such a bold and powerful preacher. He never compromised.

 

Srila Vamana Maharaja appointed Abhay Caraaaravinda Prabhu to be the savapati (head of the editors) of the Gaudiya Patrika. Savapati means top of the editorial department, or editor-in-chief. I was also in the editorial sanga for the Hindi Bhagavata-patrika. He usually submitted his articles in Bengali, and sometimes if he wrote in Hindi I would edit and then submit it, because his mother language was not Hindi. Mostly he wrote his articles for our Gaudiya-patrika in Bengali. I then translated these into Hindi and printed them in the Bhagavata-patrika. Prabhu also was expert in the skill of stenography, before the time of tape machines. During lectures of my Gurudeva and other senior Vaisnavas he took shorthand perfectly and recorded those talks in his notebooks. His accurate transcriptions were also used for articles in the Gaudiya-patrika magazine. Abhay Caranaravina Prabhu continued writing for our magazines regularly every month for many years. Some of those original editions are still preserved at our manha. (Appendix 6)

 

You can also read this article to see all the quotes from His Divine Grace with regard to his godbrothers,and perhaps put the matter in better historical and philosophical perspective.

 

Srila Prabhupada and His Godbrothers

SRILA PRABHUPADA AND THE GAUDIYA MATH

By Sridam sakha das

http://bvml.org/contemporary/srila.htm

 

FYI, Theist prabhu, I don't believe that the followers of Srila Narayana Mahraja are particularly concerned or obsessing with regard to iskcon. Those of use who took our second birth there (ISKCON), are certainly dismayed to see it become apasiddhanta, with regard to guru, jiva, nama and other tattvas, but what can be done? Personally I have little or nothing to do with them. I haven't even posted on any forums discussing the matter for some time now. If you have any interst you can read my http://bvml.org/ mission statement to understand why:

Bhaktivedanta Memorial Library Mission Statement

http://bvml.org/ms.html

 

[theist]

You may not but many others are. Or at least when around ISKCON this topic always comes up. Now that may be only at those times. 99% of time the persons may be thinking of something else but to the ISKCONer it seems like 100% of the time they are confronted on the same points by the Narayana Maharaja folks. So they feel forced into a defensive posture. See what I mean?

 

Tolerance means to allow others their choice even if it appears to be the wrong one. That certainly is meant for them in relation to others accepting Narayana Maharaja also, its none of their business.

 

I understand why people feel protective over ISKCON, and frustrated and angry when they see it taken off course. Especially those of you who have been so involved for years. But all things change and adjusting to that change is an essential component of yoga.

 

You never answered my questions about starting your own temples in the west. Are there any? If so, where? If not, why not?

 

I am hoping all of Prabhupada's advanced disciples branch out in one capacity or another. NOT as a faction or a negative reaction but as a naturally growing and spreading of the family of Caitanyaites.

 

What is more natural than the older son getting his own home and family. Still associating with his parents but from a different venue. Natural growth. Some sons will become more successful than others but that is also natural and no cause for envy although that too often arises.

 

Good luck everyone, the world needs you badly to grow beyond these petty quarrels.

[Puru_Das]

 

You never answered my questions about starting your own temples in the west. Are there any? If so, where? If not, why not?

 

 

You can find a complete list here:

http://purebhakti.com/centers/index.shtml

 

 

Sri Vraja Mandala Parikrama

28th October - 28th November 2004

Dear Devotees,

We like to invite all of you to attend the festival of Sri Vraja Mandala Parikrama 2004, organized under the auspices of Om Visnupada Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja.

For nearly half a century, Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja has been conducting this annual parikrama, humbly facilitating and nourishing fortunate pilgrims from all parts of India, as well as from all other countries, with his beautiful Hari-katha.

Sri Vraja Mandala Parikrama will start on 28th Oct. and ends on 28th Nov. There will be lectures on Damodarastakam, Srimad-Bhagavatam and other bhakti literatures; kirtana, darsana and parikrama of the famous pastime-places in Vraja mandala.

We cordially invite everyone to come and join this beautiful festival, which will be an unforgettable transcendental experience. A minimum contribution of Rs. 5500, US $120 or Euro 100 is required in order to help cover the basic parikrama expenses. You are most welcome to hear the unprecedented Hari-katha, use the simple facilities and honor the delicious maha-prasadam throughout this month.

For further information, you can contact Brajanath dasa, Vrinda-devi dasi or Tungavidya dasi. Please forward your attendance by phone or preferably by E-mail as soon as possible.

E-mail: / /

 

Sri Keshavji Gaudiya Math, Mathura (UP) 281001

Tel: (+91) 565-250.2334

 

N.B.

 

Our parikrama will be in Vrindavan from the 27th of October until the 10th of November.

From the 10th of November until the 29th of November we will be in Govardhan.

 

Though it may not have been clear on the original Parikrama announcement, all the devotees are invited to attend the inauguration of our new Sri Giridhari Gaudiya Math in Govardhan. This will take place on the 28th and 29th of November along with the installation of Sri Vigraha. Srila Gurudeva has requested that the devotees coming for Kartik adjust their return date in order to attend this auspicious festival.

 

FYI theist, when it comes to iskcon, gbc or so called godbrothers who have chosen pratistha instead of suddha bhakti I find it more adviseable to follow His Divine Grace's advice in Cc. Madhya 1.218

 

 

TEXT 218

 

TEXT

 

dui jane prabhura krpa dekhi' bhakta-gane

'hari' 'hari' bale sabe anandita-mane

 

SYNONYMS

 

dui jane--unto the two persons; prabhura--of the Lord; krpa--the mercy; dekhi'--seeing; bhakta-gane--all the devotees; hari hari--the holy name of the Lord; bale--chant; sabe--all; anandita--cheerful; mane--in the mind.

 

TRANSLATION

 

When all of the devotees saw the mercy of the Lord upon the two brothers, they were very much gladdened, and they began to chant the holy name of the Lord, "Hari! Hari!"

 

PURPORT

 

Srila Narottama dasa Thakura says, chadiya vaisnava seva nistara payeche keba: unless one serves a Vaisnava, he cannot be delivered. The spiritual master initiates the disciple to deliver him, and if the disciple executes the order of the spiritual master and does not offend other Vaisnavas, his path is clear. Consequently Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu requested all the Vaisnavas present to show mercy toward the two brothers, Rupa and Sanatana, who had just been initiated by the Lord. When a Vaisnava sees that another Vaisnava is a recipient of the Lord's mercy, he becomes very happy. Vaisnavas are not envious. If a Vaisnava, by the mercy of the Lord, is empowered by Him to distribute the Lord's holy name all over the world, other Vaisnavas become very joyful--that is, if they are truly Vaisnavas. One who is envious of the success of a Vaisnava is certainly not a Vaisnava himself, but an ordinary mundane man. Envy and jealousy are manifested by mundane people, not by Vaisnavas. Why should a Vaisnava be envious of another Vaisnava who is successful in spreading the holy name of the Lord? An actual Vaisnava is very pleased to accept another Vaisnava who is bestowing the Lord's mercy. A mundane person in the dress of a Vaisnava should not be respected but rejected. This is enjoined in the sastra (upeksa). The word upeksa means neglect. One should neglect an envious person. A preacher's duty is to love the Supreme Personality of Godhead, make friendships with Vaisnavas, show mercy to the innocent and reject or neglect those who are envious or jealous. There are many jealous people in the dress of Vaisnavas in this Krsna consciousness movement, and they should be completely neglected. There is no need to serve a jealous person who is in the dress of a Vaisnava. When Narottama dasa Thakura says chadiya vaisnava seva nistara payeche keba, he is indicating an actual Vaisnava, not an envious or jealous person in the dress of a Vaisnava.

 

 

[theist]

Yes I see many contact points. Of those I wonder how many are places open to the public to drop in or just students where one can obtain infromation about touring events etc. Anyway my point is make such public places and hold your own programs, people may or may not come. Certainly many of the public will. You don't need to canvas Prabhupada's disciples or debate those who may disagree with you.

 

 

 

When a Vaisnava sees that another Vaisnava is a recipient of the Lord's mercy, he becomes very happy. Vaisnavas are not envious. If a Vaisnava, by the mercy of the Lord, is empowered by Him to distribute the Lord's holy name all over the world, other Vaisnavas become very joyful--that is, if they are truly Vaisnavas. One who is envious of the success of a Vaisnava is certainly not a Vaisnava himself, but an ordinary mundane man. Envy and jealousy are manifested by mundane people, not by Vaisnavas. Why should a Vaisnava be envious of another Vaisnava who is successful in spreading the holy name of the Lord? An actual Vaisnava is very pleased to accept another Vaisnava who is bestowing the Lord's mercy. A mundane person in the dress of a Vaisnava should not be respected but rejected. This is enjoined in the sastra (upeksa). The word upeksa means neglect. One should neglect an envious person. A preacher's duty is to love the Supreme Personality of Godhead, make friendships with Vaisnavas, show mercy to the innocent and reject or neglect those who are envious or jealous. There are many jealous people in the dress of Vaisnavas in this Krsna consciousness movement, and they should be completely neglected. There is no need to serve a jealous person who is in the dress of a Vaisnava.

 

 

Thank you. This proves my point. Since from your perspective iskcon is envious then you should neglect them. That is exactly what I am saying.

[Guest guest]

"So prabhpada commiting offences against guru's then? "

 

you are very nice in reading prabhupada's byographies in the pages you like more

 

read what prabhupada ha said at the end.. he was apologizing because everything was for preaching and for keeping disciples together

 

he wanted collaboration

[theist]

 

thank you for helping that Russian devotee out. He made the sincere but huge error of traveling to India without sufficient funds for a visa or his return trip. I also met him on the road and told him he shouldn't embarrass his spiritual master by being so poorly prepared for visiting india. He came without sanction or taking any advice from anyone in our sanga. I assume he finally collected the rps to return to Russia, unless he became a vairagi and still lives in India.

 

 

Oh, you know him, how cool. So I was right at the beginning, he was stranded. I thought otherwise when he had all those new copies and just assumed it was an organized trick. Always nice to be free of a misconception. I just took it as some over zealousness, he was actually very nice.

 

Yes Krsna may have kept him there who knows. It's a little crazy but then again also rather brave to buy a one way ticket to the dham. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

 

[vijay]

I believe the main thing he wanted was co-operation by his diciples, as he said you can show your love for me by co-operating with each other, you can say this means co-operate with self effulgent acaryas outside of ISKCON but I can also give you loads of quotes where he says stay away from them, if they say something different you will be confused, they are like this and that.

 

It depends on what you choose to emphasis by using prabhupadas words.

The ritvics on one end will give endless quotes by prabhupada on how we should only stick to prabhupada and shouldnt even have other gurus, and the gm will give endless quotes on how actually prabhupada wanted us to take siksha and even have gm gurus as acarya's of iskcon. (As well as anyone else considered self effulgent)

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

you can say this means co-operate with self effulgent acaryas outside of ISKCON but I can also give you loads of quotes where he says stay away from them

--yes, but you have to consider the last quotes... if prabhupada says something like "excuse me.. i have offended you and criticized, but it was only for keeping my disciples together.. from now on the war is over, let us collaborate...." (read lilamrita, converstation or any other byography), now we know the sense of his previous behaviour and the previuos quotes have to be taken under another light

 

prabhupada, for a day or two, have said that iskcon devotees have to chant 64 rounds, and probably, and traditionally, he had this idea from the first time he thought to come in the west and act as spiritual master... then he has changed for 16

 

wich is now the instruction to follow? the last one.... 16 rounds

 

--

 

the gm will give endless quotes on how actually prabhupada wanted us to take siksha and even have gm gurus as acarya's of iskcon

--the gm is not a monolythe and these ideas, right or wrong, seems more belonging to a particular master than to all "non iskcon" gaudyas (because iskcon is gaudya, not muslim or shaivite). The simple principle is that when the father goes away, especially if the sons are very young, it is natural to call the help of the uncles who are a "kind" of fathers

 

simple

 

if the uncles are pure devotees (=nice fathers), even if they change or develope something, they are following strictly the desire of the original father... if there's no real guide after the father is away, the inexpert sons can make the worst mistakes even if trying to leave all as when the father was there

 

the future of iskcon, is surely in opening the gates to the ancient tradition, not to the ritvik idea that is simply a natural development of the average iskcon separatist mentality

 

hare krishna

[theist]

Apart from the argument of GM yes or no there is another phenomena taking place.

 

Many people who are in the mixed devotional category at best(myself) are still attached to social and political issues. Service for us according to our own nature then involves trying to dovetail those concerns with Krishna consciousness.

 

No problem there theoretically but in apllication we find ourselves on opposite sides of those issues with other people that chant.

 

We see gay activists pushing their agenda for gay marriage, we see their opponents pushing back and etc. We even see them organizing and presenting themselves and their agenda to the public as being Krsna conscious.

 

We also see pro-choice devotees on the abortion issue and those that oppose them.

 

The same with many other issues from veganism as necessary component to cow protection in this western culture to those that oppose that view and citing the fact that Srila Prabhupada stressed milk consunsumption as well as cow protection.

 

Animal rights in general is not so controversial but the degree of stress we place on it may be.

 

Death penalty. Women's rights.

 

Even gun control pops up.

 

So many issues all with a degree of importance and more so depending on one's relative position.

 

These are issues that have some importance to me and ones I speak out on.

 

The problem is we often find ourselves on different sides of these issues. It's divisive.

 

So how do we manage this? Surely this is not pleasing to Prabhupada, it couldn't be part of his intended vision.

 

Now I try to have backing from his books for my positions but yet find myself at odds with some of his statements on milk but yet also in line with his statements on cow protection. I feel I can harmonize this but others disagree. People lay stress on different points to different degrees.

 

Now stretch this out over 2,000 years and what do you see?

 

I am finding a solution in myself of just not trying to present myself as representing any positon other than my own when speaking to others and then listing what inspired my thinking on that issue.

 

Others may be in a more awkward position by dressing in tradional Vaisnava dress and positioning themselves as speaking for their spiritual master.

 

Anyway I would be interested in hearing what others think about all this.

[Pankaja_Dasa]

 

 

they will be another 1960's with people getting sick. I wasn't around then. But you know what I mean. Heh

[Puru_Das]

 

 

 

TEXT 71

 

 

TEXT

 

 

rati-prema-taratamye bhakta----tara-tama

 

ekadasa skandhe tara kariyache laksana

 

 

SYNONYMS

 

 

rati--of attachment; prema--and love; taratamye--by comparison; bhakta--devotee; tara-tama--superior and superlative; ekadasa skandhe--in the Eleventh Canto of Srimad-Bhagavatam; tara--of him; kariyache--has made; laksana--symptoms.

 

 

TRANSLATION

 

 

"A devotee is considered superlative and superior according to his attachment and love. In the Eleventh Canto of Srimad-Bhagavatam, the following symptoms have been ascertained.

 

 

PURPORT

 

 

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura has stated that if one has developed faith in Krsna consciousness, he is to be considered an eligible candidate for further advancement in Krsna consciousness. Those who have faith are divided into three categories-uttama, madhyama and kanistha (first-class, second-class and neophyte). A first-class devotee has firm conviction in the revealed scriptures and is expert in arguing according to the sastras. He is firmly convinced of the science of Krsna consciousness. The madhyama-adhikari, or second-class devotee, has firm conviction in Krsna consciousness, but he cannot support his conviction by citing sastric references. The neophyte devotee does not yet have firm faith. In this way the devotees are typed.

 

The standard of devotion is also categorized in the same way. A neophyte believes that only love of Krsna or Krsna consciousness is very good, but he may not know the basis of pure Krsna consciousness or how one can become a perfect devotee. Sometimes in the heart of a neophyte there is attraction for karma, jnana or yoga. When he is free and transcendental to mixed devotional activity, he becomes a second-class devotee. When he becomes expert in logic and can refer to the sastras, he becomes a first-class devotee. The devotees are also described as positive, comparative and superlative, in terms of their love and attachment for Krsna.

 

It should be understood that a madhyama-adhikari, a second-class devotee, is fully convinced of Krsna consciousness but cannot support his convictions with sastric reference. A neophyte may fall down by associating with nondevotees because he is not firmly convinced and strongly situated. The second-class devotee, even though he cannot support his position with sastric reference, can gradually become a first-class devotee by studying the sastras and associating with a first-class devotee. However, if the second-class devotee does not advance himself by associating with a first-class devotee, he makes no progress. There is no possibility that a first-class devotee will fall down, even though he may mix with nondevotees to preach. Conviction and faith gradually increase to make one an uttama-adhikari, a first-class devotee.

Cc. Madhya lila 22.71

 

 

[Puru_Das]

Suggested reading for non sectarian thinkers:

 

"Gentlemen, on behalf of the members of the Bombay branch of the Gaudiya Math, let me welcome you all because you have so kindly joined us tonight in our congregational offerings of homage to the lotus feet of the world teacher, acaryadeva, who is the founder of this Gaudiya Mission and is the President-acarya of Sri Sri Visva Vaisnava Raja Sabha-I mean my eternal divine master, Om Visnupada Paramahamsa Parivrajakacarya, Sri Srimad Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Goswami Maharaja.

 

Sixty-two years ago, on this auspicious day, the acaryadeva made his appearance by the call of Thakura Bhaktivinoda at Sri Ksetra, Jagannatha Dhama at Puri.

 

Gentlemen, the offering of such an homage as has been arranged this evening to the acaryadeva is not a sectarian concern, for when we speak of the fundamental principle of gurudeva or acaryadeva, we speak of something that is of universal application. There does not arise any question of discriminating my guru from yours or anyone else’s.

 

There is only one guru, who appears in an infinity of forms to teach you, me and all others.

 

 

In the Mundaka Upanisad (1.2.12) it is said:

 

tad-vijnartham sa gurum evabhigacchet

samit-panih srotriyam brahma-nistham

 

"In order to learn the transcendental science, one must approach the bona fide spiritual master in disciplic succession, who is fixed in the Absolute Truth."

 

Thus it has been enjoined herewith that in order to receive that transcendental knowledge, one must approach the guru. Therefore, if the Absolute Truth is one, about which we think there is no difference of opinion, the guru cannot be two. The acaryadeva to whom we have assembled tonight to offer our humble homage is not the guru of a sectarian institution or one out of many differing exponents of the truth. On the contrary, he is the jagad-guru, or the guru of all of us, the only difference is that some obey him wholeheartedly, while others do not obey him directly.

 

excerpted from

http://bvml.org/ACBSP/oeg.htm

 

[Puru_Das]

TEXT 35

 

mantra-guru ara yata siksa-guru-gana

tanhara carana age kariye vandana

 

SYNONYMS

mantra-guru--the initiating spiritual master; ara--and also; yata--as many (as there are); siksa-guru-gana--all the instructing spiritual masters; tanhara--of all of them; carana--unto the lotus feet; age--at first; kariye--I offer; vandana--respectful obeisances.

 

TRANSLATION

I first offer my respectful obeisances at the lotus feet of my initiating spiritual master and all my instructing spiritual masters.

 

PURPORT

Srila Jiva Gosvami, in his thesis Bhakti-sandarbha (202), has stated that uncontaminated devotional service is the objective of pure Vaisnavas and that one has to execute such service in the association of other devotees. By associating with devotees of Lord Krsna, one develops a sense of Krsna consciousness and thus becomes inclined toward the loving service of the Lord. This is the process of approaching the Supreme Lord by gradual appreciation in devotional service. If one desires unalloyed devotional service, one must associate with devotees of Sri Krsna, for by such association only can a conditioned soul achieve a taste for transcendental love and thus revive his eternal relationship with Godhead in a specific manifestation and in terms of the specific transcendental mellow (rasa) that one has eternally inherent in him.

 

If one develops love for Krsna by Krsna conscious activities, one can know the Supreme Absolute Truth, but he who tries to understand God simply by logical arguments will not succeed, nor will he get a taste for unalloyed devotion. The secret is that one must submissively listen to those who know perfectly the science of God, and one must begin the mode of service regulated by the preceptor. A devotee already attracted by the name, form, qualities, etc., of the Supreme Lord may be directed to his specific manner of devotional service; he need not waste time in approaching the Lord through logic. The expert spiritual master knows well how to engage his disciple's energy in the transcendental loving service of the Lord, and thus he engages a devotee in a specific devotional service according to his special tendency. A devotee must have only one initiating spiritual master because in the scriptures acceptance of more than one is always forbidden. There is no limit, however, to the number of instructing spiritual masters one may accept. Generally a spiritual master who constantly instructs a disciple in spiritual science becomes his initiating spiritual master later on.

 

One should always remember that a person who is reluctant to accept a spiritual master and be initiated is sure to be baffled in his endeavor to go back to Godhead. One who is not properly initiated may present himself as a great devotee, but in fact he is sure to encounter many stumbling blocks on his path of progress toward spiritual realization, with the result that he must continue his term of material existence without relief. Such a helpless person is compared to a ship without a rudder, for such a ship can never reach its destination. It is imperative, therefore, that one accept a spiritual master if he at all desires to gain the favor of the Lord. The service of the spiritual master is essential. If there is no chance to serve the spiritual master directly, a devotee should serve him by remembering his instructions. There is no difference between the spiritual master's instructions and the spiritual master himself. In his absence, therefore, his words of direction should be the pride of the disciple. If one thinks that he is above consulting anyone else, including a spiritual master, he is at once an offender at the lotus feet of the Lord. Such an offender can never go back to Godhead. It is imperative that a serious person accept a bona fide spiritual master in terms of the sastric injunctions. Sri Jiva Gosvami advises that one not accept a spiritual master in terms of hereditary or customary social and ecclesiastical conventions. One should simply try to find a genuinely qualified spiritual master for actual advancement in spiritual understanding.

 

 

Cc. Adi 1.35

[Puru_Das]

 

I believe the main thing he wanted was co-operation by his diciples, as he said you can show your love for me by co-operating with each other, you can say this means co-operate with self effulgent acaryas outside of ISKCON but I can also give you loads of quotes where he says stay away from them, if they say something different you will be confused, they are like this and that.

 

 

 

You can quote out of context as much as you like to support an insitutional agenda, but what His Divine Grace taught and has left for us in his books speaks for itself. I only posted three examples. There are many more.

 

 

It depends on what you choose to emphasis by using prabhupadas words.

The ritvics on one end will give endless quotes by prabhupada on how we should only stick to prabhupada and shouldnt even have other gurus, and the gm will give endless quotes on how actually prabhupada wanted us to take siksha and even have gm gurus as acarya's of iskcon. (As well as anyone else considered self effulgent)

 

 

Such rudderless ships can travel endlessly. Srila Prabhupada neither instituionalized Gaudiya Vaisnavism or preached exclusivity, despite the opinions of rtvks who are on the gbc or members of irm.

 

" Association with Pure Devotees

 

Although many different processes for developing love of Godhead have been explained so far, Srila Rupa Gosvami now gives us a general description of how one can best achieve such a high position. The beginning of ecstatic love of Godhead is basically faith. There are many societies and associations of pure devotees, and if someone with just a little faith begins to associate with such societies, his advancement to pure devotional service is rapid. The influence of a pure devotee is such that if someone comes to associate with him with a little faith, one gets the chance of hearing about the Lord from authoritative scriptures like Bhagavad-gita and Srimad-Bhagavatam. Thus, by the mercy of the Lord, who is situated in everyone's heart, one gradually develops his faith in the descriptions of such authoritative scriptures. This is the first stage of association with pure devotees. In the second stage, after one becomes a little advanced and mature, he automatically offers to follow the principles of devotional service under the guidance of the pure devotee and accepts him as the spiritual master. In the next stage, under the guidance of the spiritual master, the devotee executes regulative devotional service, and as a result of such activities, he becomes freed from all unwanted occupations. When he is freed from unwanted occupations, his faith becomes steadily fixed, and he develops a transcendental taste for devotional service, then attachment, then ecstasies, and in the last stage there is pure love of Godhead. These are the different stages of the development of pure love.

Only the most fortunate persons can achieve such success in life. Those who are simply academic students of the Vedic scriptures cannot appreciate how such a development takes place. In the Narada-pancaratra Lord Siva therefore tells Parvati, "My dear supreme goddess, you may know from me that any person who has developed the ecstasy of love for the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and who is always merged in transcendental bliss on account of this love, cannot even perceive the material distress or happiness coming from the body or mind."

The affection and the dealings of love that are different branches of the original tree of love precede many varieties of affectionate manifestations that will not be discussed here. These different manifestations have been described by Sanatana Gosvami in his Bhagavatamrta. Although the subject of such affections and dealings of love is very confidential, Sanatana Gosvami has described them very explicitly.

Sri Rupa Gosvami thus concludes the first division of the Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu, offering up his treatise for the transcendental pleasure of Sanatana Gosvami, who has established the transcendental beauty, and of Gopala Bhatta Gosvami, Sri Raghunatha Bhatta Gosvami and Raghunatha dasa Gosvami. It appears from this statement that the great Srila Jiva Gosvami was not yet active when Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu was written.

 

Thus ends the Bhaktivedanta summary study of the first division of Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu, up to the descriptions of ecstatic love of Godhead, which are to follow next."

Nectar of Devotion

 

 

[theist]

people always get sick Pankraja. I think Vaisnavism will become even more splintereed into different camps as time goes on.

 

The essential thing is that someone keep at least THE line intact.

 

But then people even debate on what it means to do that.

 

Alas. It is the age of confusion.

 

edited to change the word THE for the word one. Not any line will do.

[Puru_Das]

Dear Vijay,

Rather than just speaking theoretically concerning siksa from sources outside institutional iskcon, why not examine any or all of the material listed below and make up your own mind whether it has merit or not, can help you advance your understanding of KC or not, and whether it is in line with His Divine Grace's legacy.

 

Lectures

http://www.purebhakti.com/lectures/index.shtml

 

Library

http://www.purebhakti.com/library/index.shtml

 

If indeed, guru is one, as His Divine Grace spoke in l936, then you won't find anything here that contradicts what we find in Srila Prabhupada's vanih, in particular his books and public lectures. BTW who is your diksa guru?

[Tarun]

vedeSu durlabham adurlabham Atma-bhaktau

govindam adi-puruSam tam aham bhajAmi

[Guest guest]

gaudya vaishnavism is not monolithic since his birth..

 

janava devi, at the famous keturi festival, after a few years after chaitanya mahaprabhu left this world, is already making a list of bona fide sects of chaitanya's followers along the unauthorized ones

 

so this is eternal... and even if iskcon is trying to annihilate philosophical differences by GBC's control,we have already iskcon gurus who have opposite ideas on very important and essential subjects

 

so that's good and natural...

 

 

 

the real problem is how we will manage differences and if we will find the system to collaborate...

 

prabhupada,with young and inexpert disciples, had the need to close the gates... now the emergency is ended, problems are others, and we can learn the normal behaviour from other great acharyas and organizations and from the last instructions of srila prabhupada

 

 

[stonehearted]

I think you bring up a very good point here, theist. We have seen such wrangling here. You and I (and Mahaksha), for example, have gone around several times on the efficacy of legislating against abortion, and we have not been able to agree on the position that mahak and I see as a nuanced anti-abortion position that emphasizes education over legislation. You abhor the appearance of sophistry and prefer a black-and-white approach. That's fine. You and I can discuss it, but we are each bright enough and experienced enough to know that our inablility to "enlighten" each other doesn't mean we can't respect or like each other. (That's just an example; I don't want to get this going again, fer cryin' out loud). Another example we saw here a year and a half ago was the propriety of Bush's invasion of Iraq. (Ditto.) I think it's good for us to discuss these relative issues we disagree on, but we ultimately have to recognize the very broad landscape of more ultimately relevant issues on which we agree. That should be the basis of our essential relationship. We see in Bhaktivinoda Thakura's introduction to Sri Krishna Samhita, for example, that he decided not to argue the traditional Vedic view of history or cosmology with the young, western-educated Bengalis he was addressing. He saw it as ultimately unimportant because cosmology and history are not the subject of Srimad-Bhagavatam.

 

With regard to animal rights and lacto-vegetarian diets, I think that many, if not most, thoughtful devotees will see how your (vegan) position is at least respectable, if not exemplary. As I've mentioned before, my older daughter has been vegan for many years, not because she thinks milk doesn't taste nice or is unhealthy, but because she prefers not to support what a Godbrother of mine has called the "bolld milk" industry. I think the most effective preaching in times of expanding consciousness, will necessarily acknowledge that blithely using factory-farm dairy products in the the name of pleasing the Deities and cow protection is less than ideal. Eventually, leaders will be forced to see the absolute necessity of instituting real cow protection.

[Guest guest]

What I see is as much there is not a present and alive pure devotee like in our days, everything is only CHAOS!

[Guest guest]

 

Some people think that Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada was omniscient and that he never made any errors of judgement or mistakes. Others feel that a genuine Guru and uttama adhikari can make mistakes, as in the case of Brahma, the first person in the Brahma-Madva-Gaudiya sampradaya. Bhagavatam tells us that for a time Brahma was in illusion and was unable to recognize Krishna's supremacy and thus he came and stole Krishna's cows and friends. Another example of a Guru in illusion is the example of Madvacharya, who holds the opinion that the Deity of Krishna is an idol, and not God directly.

 

So, I feel that if we are mature in our understanding of Guru-tattva we will realize that Krishna sometimes arranges things in such a way that Sri Guru does or says things which later turn out to be wrong.

 

For example, Srila Sridhar Maharaj was not a member of the Gaudiya Math GBC, and he was not a party to the meetings of the Gaudiya Math GBC in which the GBC quarreled and decided to split into two factions. Srila Sridhar Maharaj said he would follow the directions of the GBC, as he felt it was his obligation to follow the directives of the senior Vaishnavas. So when the GBC divided into two factions - Anantavasudeva and Kunja Babu - Srila Sridhar Maharaj chose to go along with the greater majority who supported Anantavasudeva. That is, eight GBC's supported Anantavasudeva and five supported Kunja Babu. This is the historical unfolding of the breakup of the Gaudiya Math GBC, and as the documents and facts prove, Srila Sridhar Maharaj did not cause the breakup of the Gaudiya Math.

 

So let me make my point very bluntly.

 

Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada asked that a message should be sent to his Godbrothers, asking them forgiveness for the many criticisms he had made of them. In the case of his criticism of Srila Sridhar Maharaj in the letter to Rupanuga, the criticism of Srila Sridhar Maharaj was indeed offensive. In that letter Srila Sridhar Maharaj was blamed for doing something that he didn't do. Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada is a suddha bhakta and great friend of Srila Sridhar Maharaj and we know Srila Sridhar Maharaj did not feel angered by what was written in that letter to Rupanuga. But that doesn't alter the fact that the things Prabhupada said in that letter are wrong.

 

I have a video of Srila Sridhar Maharaj speaking about this topic, and Srila Sridhar Maharaj said that he wanted to ask the ISKCON GBC to edit out all the statements criticizing Gaudiya Math Godbrothers which are mentioned in the books of Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. Needless to say the ISKCON GBC never edited the books to remove those statements. And further to that, Srila Sridhar Maharaj said that if they don't remove those statements then he wanted nothing whatsoever to do with ISKCON anymore. This was in 1982.

 

For anyone who wants to see that video, you can purchase copies of it here

http://www.guardian-of-devotion.de/dvd/dvd.htm

 

I am so utterly sick and tired of spin doctors who try and re-write history to suit their agendas. In inventing this "Prabhupada-ism" that is promoted by various camps of supposed "Prabhupada men" we find people justifying some statements of Srila Prabhupada that are just plain wrong. Srila Sridhar Maharaj taught that Sri Guru is not omniscient and that Brahma and Madvacharyya, our Gurus, made mistakes. Srila Sridhar Maharaj also admitted he made mistakes; he didn't claim to be infallible. So, will the day ever come when the big shot Prabhupada men realize that regurgitating quotes of things that "Prabhupada says" is no substitute for enlightened Krishna Consciousness? Realizing that your Guru may make mistakes sometimes is a very serious and deep matter. A life and death matter. A razors edge that can be a very dangerous moment in the life of a serious practitioner of sadhana-bhakti. But avoiding this issue is equally dangerous. If we avoid delving into this matter and seaching for guidance from the Caitya-guru, we will remain for many lifetimes in the realm of shallow-minded, fundamentalist, book-reading neophytes. The sort of people that are called "asses" or donkeys in Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur's book Sri Krishna Samhita.

 

We read in Sri Krishna Samhita that Krishna and Balarama's killing of Dhenukasura and other donkeys in Talavana represents the destruction by Krishna and Sri Guru (Balarama) of the donkey mentality that haunts the minds of neophyte devotees engaged in sadhana bhakti.

 

m.das

 

[theist]

I for one am glad that Prabhupada's books were not edited as Sridhar Maharaja requested, if that indeed is the case. Everyone wants to edit his teachings for their own reasons.

 

The feminists, the homosexuals, those that disagree with him on many grounds. HIS BOOKS ARE HIS BOOKS and should remain as such.

 

I am not doubting what you say. If there was a misunderstanding then make your point widely known. This misconception that guru has to be an omniscient answer man in all respects is absurd and should be challenged. I see it as an eventual faith buster. At some point the student will see his guru make a mistake and a doubt will arise. "Is he a real guru afterall? Guru can't commit mistakes." If it happens more than a once a student may not be able to suppress it and so he rejects his guru, inwardly if not outwardly.

 

Let that understanding be there from day one. But to change his writings is a crime I feel. Right or wrong let them stand as they are. (grammatical errors or ordinary typos are another thing)

[Pankaja_Dasa]

 

Hare Krishna

 

 

I think only reason to change is so people don't misunderstand. I don't think Maharaja thought for a second they would comply. He was making a point. And anyway they change the books anyway, edit.?

 

When I am reading, I feel Prabhupada is speaking to me. His words way he speaks. If somebody 'edits' {which they do anyway}, then what am I to think?. Why put Prabhupada's name on the Book. Just put whoever edited right? I DO NOT see reason to edit. My Gurudeva edits books from Bhaktisiddhanta Maharaja { i think for sanskrit} I am not very sure. I don't think word for word. But to makes clear realizations. Prabhupada has GIVEN his realizations!!!!!! His books. Oh man. I need a break, before my heads explodes. Oh yeah but thats just my opinion.

[Puru_Das]

"There are some who, being unable to understand the drift of his statements, give meanings of their own invention and indulge in useless controversies. Sri Rupa and Sanatana say that there is no real and essential distinction between the lilas visible and nonvisible, the only distinction lies in this that one is manifest in the mundane sphere whereas the other is not so. In the supermundane manifestation there is absolute purity in the seer and the seen. A particularly fortunate person when he is favored by Krsna, can shake off worldly shackles and connections, enter the transcendental region after attaining the realized taste of the varieties of rasa that is available during the period of novitiate. Only such a person can have a view and taste of the perfect and absolutely pure lila of Goloka. Such receptive natures are rarely to be found. He, who exists in the mundane sphere, can also realize the taste of cid-rasa by the grace of Krsna by being enabled to attain the realized state of service. Such a person can have a view of the pastimes of Goloka manifested in the mundane lila of Gokula. There is certainly a difference between these two classes of eligible seekers of the truth. Until one attains the perfectly transcendental stage he must be hampered by his lingering limitations, in his vision of the pastimes of Goloka. Again, the vision of the transcendental reality varies according to the degree of self-realization. The vision of Goloka must also vary accordingly.

 

It is only those fettered souls who are excessively addicted to worldliness that are devoid of the devotional eye. Of them some are enmeshed by the variegatedness of the deluding energy while others aspire after self-annihilation under the influence of centrifugal knowledge. Though they might have a view of the mundanely manifested pastimes of the Supreme Lord, they can have only a material conception of those visible pastimes, this conception being devoid of transcendental reality. Hence the realization of Goloka appears in proportion to eligibility due to the degree of one's self-realization. The underlying principle is this, that, though Gokula is as holy and free from dross as Goloka, still it is manifested on the mundane plane by the influence of the cit potency. Yogamaya. In visible and nonvisible matters of transcendental regions there is no impurity. contamination and imperfection inherent in the world of limitation; only there is some difference in the matter of realization in proportion to the self-realization of the seekers after the Absolute. Impurity. unwholesomeness, foreign elements, illusion, nescience, unholiness, utter inadequacy. insignificance, grossness--these appertain to the eye, intellect, mind and ego stultified by the material nature of conditioned souls; they have nothing to do with the essential nature of transcendence. The more one is free from these blots the more is one capable of realizing the unqualified Absolute. The truth who has been revealed by the scriptures, is free from dross. But the realizations of the seekers of the knowledge of these realities, are with or without flaw in accordance with the degree of their individual realization.

 

Sri Brahma Samhita

purport verse 37

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura

 

If you really have guru nistha (faith) then you should understand that the nara lila of pure devotees is directed and under the full shelter of the cit and hladini saktis of the Supreme Lord. The pure devotee is always in complete harmony with the will of the supreme absolute truth. Therefore it behooves any conditioned soul to think he can fully appreciate or understand the internal mood of such self realized souls. Therefore unless you are experienceing the same ecstatic mood to serve your spiritual master that was felt and exhibited by exaulted devotees like Srila Bhakti Raksak Sridhar Maharaja, and Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, it is unadviseable to enter into the "apparant" controversies between them. Their "disagreements" were simply expressions of their ecstatic mood to serve Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura. Neophytes, like us, can no more enter into them, than can sahajiyas, mayavadis or gross materialists who try to delve into the externally viewed "differences" between Srila Jiva and Srila Rupa and Sanatana.

 

Lord Brahma is the leader of our sampradaya. Anyone making a similar judgement concerning his "illusion" does not understand why such pastime was manifest . We don't similarly criticise Arjuna for being "bewildered," but understand that yogamaya was simply arranging for lila of Sri Krsna speaking the gita. In SB Brahmaji also exhibits an apparant attraction for material nature. This is also only for the benefit of the baddha jivas. No one should speculate about the consciousness of any pure devotees,what they know or don't know.

 

An ant can better understand the demigods, than most disciples ever understand the eternal internal mood of their gurudeva. What you consider a "mistake" made by any sad guru is coming from your own conditioned perspective, and not his eternal transcendental one. If you don't believe that the senses of the fully surrendered self realized soul are controlled by the will of the Supreme Lord, and his words are only manifestations of that Supreme will then what kind of sraddha in sri guru do you have?It is much more a matter of motive than your idea of infallability. Anything done by a nitya siddha Vaisnava is filled with prema for Radha and Krsna, and despite your point of view, that word or action comes from a pure devotional mood, despite apparant contradictions that you see from a conditioned perspective.

 

SBSST Thakura once wrote:

 

"Thakur Bhaktivinode did not want us to go to the clever mechanical reciter of the mundane sound for obtaining access to the Transcendental Name of Krishna. Such a person may be fully equipped with all the written arguments in explanation of the nature of the Divine Name. But if we listen to all these arguments from the dead source the words will only increase our delusion. The very same words coming from the lips of the devotee will have the diametrically opposite effect. Our empiric judgment can never grasp the difference between the two performances. The devotee is always right. The non-devotee in the shape of the empiric pedant is always and necessarily wrong. In the one case there is always present the Substantive Truth and nothing but the Substantive Truth. In the other case there is present the apparent or misleading hypothesis and nothing but un-truth. The wording may have the same external appearance in both cases. The identical verses of the Scriptures may be recited by the devotee and the non-devotee, may be apparently misquoted by the non-devotee but the corresponding values of the two processes remain always categorically different. The devotee is right even when he apparently misquotes, the non-devotee is wrong even when he quotes correctly the very words, chapter and verse of the Scriptures.

 

from:

Thakur Bhaktivinode

Paper by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura

http://bvml.org/SBSST/tb.htm

 

 

1. 28

acaryam mam vijaniyam

navamanyeta karhicit

na martya buddhyasuyeta

sarva-deva mayo gurum

 

[Krsna told Uddhava] "Know the acarya as My Self. I am the acarya . Never envy the acarya; never blaspheme him or consider him to be an ordinary man. Because the acarya channels the infinite, He is greater than the sum total of all the finite. Thus, he is more important than all the gods. (Srimad-Bhagavatam 11.17.27)

Sri Gaudiya Kantahara

 

 

It is very dangerous to talk about absolute personalities in relative terms from our neophyte perspective. Rather than say they "made mistakes" we should better understand that we could not really perceive them when they manifested before our relative vision. What we may see as an "error" in judgement or behavior from them, is more likely Krsna's test of our faith to see if we rely on our external senses or are praying for internal realization.

 

 

 

[vijay]

Hare Krsna

 

Thank you for the information,

 

Personally I regard srila prabhupada as the founder acarya of the "institution" Iskcon as he regarded himself. He is the pre-eminant siksa guru for all in ISKCON, he laid down the 7 rules for ISKCON the mood of ISKCON just as bsst laid down the mood and "institution" of gaudiya matha. Prabhupada emphasised co-orperation in ISKCON and he asked his disciples to maintain the "Institution" thats how we can show him our love.

 

Now as my pre-eminent siksa guru I will only accept teachings from other gurus as long as they are in line with what prabhupada has taught, if any teachings of any other siksa/diksa guru are against are not compatible with his teachings, mood and instructions then I will be inclined to listen to someone who imbibes srila prabhupadas mood as his mission.

 

As other gurus outside ISKCON are not bound by prabhupada's instructions concerning his institution and may also have philosophical differences as well as the mood, I choose to stay clear of this and endeavour to find a pure devotee who has accepted srila prabhupada as the final authority and fully involved in maintaing what he has set up and instructed those in ISKCON to do. I choose to follow the mood and mission that srila prabhupada set up and asked us to be apart of. I follow those that are dedicated to this mission as I am eternally indebted to srila prabhupada I am dedicated to maintaing what he has set up.

 

I do believe there are pure devotees in and outside ISKCON i choose to follow those that accept srila prabhupada as the founder acarya and the final athority as a siksa disciple I have my first allegiance to him. Im sure as some have quoted prabhupada, that there are many societys where pure devotees can be found for me this includes Iskcon too. Just as you wouldnt of expected diciples of BSST to go to babajis even if uttama adhikari or someone outside the mission of BSST even if pure as the may not share the goals that BSST established for his mission nor the mood nor the same philosophical understanding.