What will Gaudiya Vaisnavism be like in 2000 years?

[Guest guest]

http://bvml.org/contemporary/srila.htm

[vijay]

"That makes it all the more surprising how poorly it is written. More important than the grammatical errors I found the first time I skimmed the document are the errors in logic. "

 

Please give backed up critisism im not intrested in grammer mistkes, if you've found holes say so, the above statement was from your last post which i ignored as it contains no points just general dismisal without evidence.

 

 

"I've gone through the booklet and found that the actual context of many of the quotations Sivarama Maharaja uses are inappropriate to the situations he addresses in the booklet. "

 

Okay so here you say it again, okay give what u BELIEVE is the correct context.

A general dismisal is useless.

 

"I am not Sivarama Maharaja's disciple, so I see no reason that I should accept everything he writes as shastra."

 

No one said you should accept what he says as shastra, they are points if you disagree with them say so like others have been saying.

 

"When considering or making an argument, there are several things to consider. In terms of classical Western rhetoric, Aristotle suggests ethos, the character of the speaker; pathos, considering the emotinal needs of the audience; logos, the use of language and reason; and kairos, the context, situation, or opportunity. (These are grossly simplified explanations.) In terms of classical Vedic rhetoric, as well as I understand it, the things to consider are adhikaran, the qualifications (of the speaker? audience?); samsaya, doubts that may arise; purva paksha, objections that occur as a result of those doubts; siddhanta, the conclusions arrived at; and sangati, harmonizing the different positions according to the context in which we find them. Using such analysis even briefly, I see no reason for anyone who is not his disciple to accept this document as unquestionably authoritative. As far as I understand, this booklet and the siksa-guru book were written on the order of the GBC as a way to try to undo (or atone for?) his sin of accepting siksa outside ISKCON. So the context may arouse caution in many careful readers."

 

Okay roughly the same point. No one is telling you to accept anything he says (Please show me a place where anyone has suggested it). He gives logical arguments then you give them back if you disagree. Simple. He makes clear why he wrote it, you can interpret what you want out of it.

Just try and see the points and give evidence in refutation if you disagree. Simple.

 

"As for others, well, Sivaram Maharaja has in several places referred to ISKCON members as innocent, inexperienced, and many other words that could be synonyms for foolish."

 

What is your point, whats the hidden meaning that iskcon is made of foolish people therefore go to a higher siksa guru?

 

Innocent and inexperienced is not a synonym for foolish, the words mean what they say they mean it doesnt need you or any other "hidden meaning". Maybe you now know sivarama swami more than anyone else "his true meaning".

 

 

"There are a great many things he said that weren't recorded, and somehave extimated that as many as 150 of the tapes that were made are mssing somehow"

 

Sorry but evidence that might be there isnt eveidence we cant work from. I appreciate there might be stuff not there but that works both ways. In a court of law you cannot say actually there is stuff but we just havent got it.

 

"Prabhupada didn't ask him to "have any say" in managing ISKCON, nor would Sridhar Maharaja have had any interest in doing so. Srila Prabhupada said that, after his departure, we could approach Sridhar Maharaja on matters of philosophy. I haven't located that in VedaBase, but that's certainly no indication that he didn't say it."

 

Yes I have heard that but can not find it, I think doubt 8 refers to that.

 

First-hand sources testify that Prabhup§da requested

at least one senior Vai¢£ava to care for his followers.

38 Those same sources, however, confirm that the request

was brief and clearly not an invitation to be a

ªik¢§-guru, rather, a well-wisher.

That explanation is consistent with other evidence;

¼r¦la Prabhup§da gave no instruction that he had empowered

any Vai¢£ava from outside ISKCON to be a ªik¢§-

guru —what to speak of his successor.

 

Refer to doubt 8 for full text.

 

(Im not asking you to accept this is as sastra, if you find flaws then say so, general dismissal is no good or talking about the authors spelling or logic is useless, im interested in the points you have against the logic)

[Guest guest]

Vijay,

Sivarama Maharja's pamphlet is just another knotch on the belt of misdirection inspired by gbc sectarianism, in the name of His Divine Grace's vanih. Rtvks quote just as extensivly from His Divine Grace, and their position re guru tattva is just as untenable as the gbc's.

 

Srila Prabhupada spoke and wrote very clearly regarding Srila Rupa Gosvamis' instructions regarding adau sraddha tatah sadhu-sanga. (Cc. Adi 1.35, Antya 5.131 etc.) Frankly it doesn't really matter what the gbc tells people to think or what Sivarama Mah tries to pass off as His Divine Grace's will by quoting from letters out of context.

 

Sivarma has done his level best to keep iskcon members confident that only THEY can and are the inheritors His Divine Grace's mission. Such self deception is unfortunate, yet unavoidable in kali yuga.

 

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura cautioned taking association from individuals who distort guadiya siddhanta in its own name. Discouraging sadhu-sanga is just another example of a polluted and mixed conception of bhakti.

 

 

"Most respectable Vaisnavas! Our sole objective is to relish and propagate the nectar of suddha-bhakti unto Lord Hari. Therefore, our foremost duty is to understand the true nature of suddha-bhakti. This understanding will benefit us in two ways. First, knowing the true nature of suddha-bhakti will dispel our ignorance concerning the topic of bhakti and thus make our human life successful by allowing us to relish the nectar derived from engaging in suddha- bhakti in its pure form. Secondly, it will enable us to protect ourselves from the polluted and mixed conceptions which currently exist in the name of suddha-bhakti. Unfortunately, in present day society in the name of suddha-bhakti various types of mixed devotion such as karma-misra. (mixed with fruitive action), jnana-misra. (mixed with speculative knowledge) and yoga-misra. (mixed with various types of yoga processes) as well as various polluted and imaginary conceptions are spreading everywhere like germs of plague. People in general consider these polluted and mixed conceptions to be bhakti, respect them as such, and thus remain deprived of suddha-bhakti. These polluted and mixed concepts are our greatest enemies. Some people say that there is no value in bhakti, that God is an imaginary sentiment only, that man has merely created the image of a God in his imagination, and that bhakti is just a diseased state of consciousness which cannot benefit us in any way. These types of people, though opposed to bhakti, cannot do much harm to us because we can easily recognise them and avoid them. But those who propagate that bhagavad-bhakti is the highest dharma yet behave against the principles of suddha-bhakti and also instruct others against the principles of suddha-bhakti can be especially harmful to us. In the name of bhakti they instruct us against the actual principles of bhakti and ultimately lead us onto a path which is totally opposed to bhagavad-bhakti. Therefore, with great endeavour our previous acaryas have defined the svarupa or intrinsic nature of bhakti and have repeatedly cautioned us to keep ourselves away from polluted and mixed concepts. We shall deliberate on their instructions in sequence. They have compiled numerous literatures to establish the svarupa of bhakti, and amongst them Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu is the most beneficial. In defining the general characteristics of suddha-bhakti, Srila Rupa Gosv.m. has written there (verse 1.1.11):

 

anyabhilasita sunyam jnana-karmady anavrtam

anukulyena krsnanu silanam bhaktir uttama.

 

The cultivation of activities which are meant exclusively for the pleasure of Sri Krsna, or in other words the uninterrupted flow of service to Sri. Krsna performed through all endeavours of the body, mind, and speech, and through the expression of various spiritual sentiments

(bhavas), which is not covered by jnana (knowledge aimed at impersonal liberation) and karma(reward-seeking activity), and which is devoid of all desires other than the aspiration to bring happiness to Sri Krsna, is called uttama-bhakti, pure devotional service. In the above verse, each and every word has to be analysed; otherwise we cannot understand the attributes of bhakti. In this verse, what is the meaning of the words uttam.-bhakti?

Does the phrase uttam.-bhakti or topmost devotion also imply the existence of adhama or inferior bhakti? Or can it mean something else? Uttama-bhakti means the stage where the devotional creeper is in its completely pure or uncontaminated form. For example, uncontaminated water means pure water, meaning that in this water there is no colour, smell or adulteration of any kind caused by the addition of another substance. Similarly, the phrase uttama-bhakti refers to bhakti which is devoid of any contamination, adulteration or attachment to material possessions and which is performed in an exclusive manner.

 

The usage of these qualifying adjectives here teaches us that we should not accept any sentiments which are opposed to bhakti. The negation of sentiments which are opposed to bhakti inevitably directs us towards the pure nature of bhakti itself. Perhaps by merely using the word bhakti alone this meaning is indicated, since the word bhakti already contains within it all these adjectives anyway. Then has bhakti-rasacarya Srila Rupa Gosvami. specifically employed the qualifying adjective uttama.

(topmost) for no reason? No just as when desiring to drink water people generally ask, Oh is this water uncontaminated? So similarly, in order to describe the attributes of uttama.-bhakti, our previous .acaryas considered it necessary to indicate that people mostly practice miisra.-bhakti or mixed devotion. In reality, rasacarya .Srila Rupa Gosvami. is aiming to describe the attributes of kevala-bhakti or exclusive devotion. Chaya-bhakti, pratibimba-bhakti, chaya.-bhakti (a

shadow of devotion), karma-misra.-bhakti, jnana-misra.-bhakti and so on are not suddha- bhakti. They will all be examined in sequence later on. . . "

 

Srial Bhaktivinoda Thakura

Bhakti-tattva-viveka

 

 

[Guest guest]

An in depth discussion of Shivarma's pamphlet is wasted bandwith, and just like making conversation with the tar baby in Uncle Remus' Tales of the South.

 

Keep your head in the institutional sand if you are comfortable there. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura advises us in Jaiva Dharma,chapter 8 about whose association we should accept and whose we should reject:

 

" The madhyama Vaisnava’s fourth characteristic is neglect towards those who are inimical. Here we must define enmity and describe its different types. Enmity (dvesa) is a particular attitude which is also known as matsarata (envy), and which is exactly the opposite of love. Bhagavan is the only object of love, and dvesa is the attitude that is directly opposite to love for Him. There are five different types of dvesa: absence of faith in isvara; the belief that isvara is nothing more than a natural potency that brings about the results of all action; the belief that isvara has no particular form; the belief that the jivas are not eternally subordinate to isvara; and the absence of mercy.

 

Individuals whose hearts are contaminated by these inimical attitudes are absolutely bereft of suddha-bhakti. They do not even have prakrita-bhakti, the rudimentary devotion that is the doorway to suddha-bhakti, and which is represented by the neophyte bhakta’s worship of the Deity. The five types of enmity are found to co-exist with attachment to material sense enjoyment. Sometimes the third and fourth types of enmity lead to such an extreme form of asceticism or aversion towards the world that it culminates in self-annihilation. This is seen in the lives of the Mayavada sannyasis. How should suddha-bhaktas behave towards such inimical people? It is their duty to avoid them.

 

The word upeksa, neglect, does not imply that one should abandon all social dealings that are normal between human beings. Nor does it mean that one should fail to alleviate an inimical person’s difficulty or deprivation if he falls into distress. Grihastha Vaisnavas remain within society, so they have many types of relationships, for instance, with relatives through marriage, and with others through business dealings, through the maintenance of property and bringing up of animals, through endeavoring to mitigate the suffering and ailments of others, and through their position as citizens of the state. These different social relations entail connection with inimical people, and avoidance does not mean that one should at once give them up. One is obliged to conduct routine affairs and interact with people who are indifferent to isvara, but one should not take their association when it comes to spiritual matters.

 

Some members of one’s own family may acquire a malicious nature as a result of their sinful activities from a previous life. Should one abandon such people? Certainly not. One should deal with them without attachment insofar as ordinary affairs are concerned, but one should not associate with them for spiritual matters. Upeksa should be applied in this regard. Spiritual association means to meet together for the purpose of spiritual advancement, to discuss topics of eternal truth, and to render reciprocal service and welfare that awakens one’s devotional sentiments. Upeksa means avoiding the association of people with whom such types of exchange are not possible.

 

When an inimical person who has adopted discordant or inconsistent opinions hears glorification of suddha-bhakti or virtuous instructions regarding bhakti, he will immediately retort with some futile argument which is not beneficial for you or for him. One should avoid such fruitless arguments, and interact with such people only as far as necessary in routine social dealings. One may think that one should include inimical people among the ignorant, and therefore bestow mercy upon them, but if one does so, one will not help them and will only harm oneself. One should be benevolent, but with caution.

 

Madhyama-adhikari suddha-bhaktas should certainly follow these four instructions. If they neglect to do so in any way, they become guilty of behaving improperly and thus fail to do that for which they are qualified. This is considered a serious defect, as explained in Srimad-Bhagavatam (11.21.2):

 

 

sve sve ‘dhikare ya nistha sa gunah parikirtitah

viparyayas tu dosah syad ubhayor esa nirnayah

 

To be firmly established in the duties one is authorized to perform is a good quality, whereas failure to do so is a fault. Good qualities and faults are ascertained in this way. In other words, good qualities and faults are determined according to one’s eligibility, and not by any other criterion. According to the sastras, the madhyama-adhikari suddha-bhakta should develop prema for Krishna and friendship with His pure bhaktas. He should be merciful to the ignorant and should neglect those who are inimical. The degree of friendship that the madhyama-bhakta establishes with other bhaktas should be in keeping with the degree of their advancement in bhakti; the degree of mercy that he bestows upon the ignorant depends on their degree of sincerity or foolishness; and the extent to which he neglects the inimical depends on the degree of their enmity. The madhyama-bhakta considers all these things as he interacts with others in spiritual affairs. Worldly affairs should be conducted in a straightforward manner, but should always be performed with consideration of the ultimate spiritual benifit.

********************

 

Srila Prabhupada give similar advise in his Cc. purport

 

TEXT 218

 

dui jane prabhura krpa dekhi' bhakta-gane

'hari' 'hari' bale sabe anandita-mane

 

SYNONYMS

 

dui jane--unto the two persons; prabhura--of the Lord; krpa--the mercy; dekhi'--seeing; bhakta-gane--all the devotees; hari hari--the holy name of the Lord; bale--chant; sabe--all; anandita--cheerful; mane--in the mind.

 

TRANSLATION

 

When all of the devotees saw the mercy of the Lord upon the two brothers, they were very much gladdened, and they began to chant the holy name of the Lord, "Hari! Hari!"

 

PURPORT

 

Srila Narottama dasa Thakura says, chadiya vaisnava seva nistara payeche keba: unless one serves a Vaisnava, he cannot be delivered. The spiritual master initiates the disciple to deliver him, and if the disciple executes the order of the spiritual master and does not offend other Vaisnavas, his path is clear. Consequently Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu requested all the Vaisnavas present to show mercy toward the two brothers, Rupa and Sanatana, who had just been initiated by the Lord. When a Vaisnava sees that another Vaisnava is a recipient of the Lord's mercy, he becomes very happy. Vaisnavas are not envious. If a Vaisnava, by the mercy of the Lord, is empowered by Him to distribute the Lord's holy name all over the world, other Vaisnavas become very joyful--that is, if they are truly Vaisnavas. One who is envious of the success of a Vaisnava is certainly not a Vaisnava himself, but an ordinary mundane man. Envy and jealousy are manifested by mundane people, not by Vaisnavas. Why should a Vaisnava be envious of another Vaisnava who is successful in spreading the holy name of the Lord? An actual Vaisnava is very pleased to accept another Vaisnava who is bestowing the Lord's mercy. A mundane person in the dress of a Vaisnava should not be respected but rejected. This is enjoined in the sastra (upeksa). The word upeksa means neglect. One should neglect an envious person. A preacher's duty is to love the Supreme Personality of Godhead, make friendships with Vaisnavas, show mercy to the innocent and reject or neglect those who are envious or jealous. There are many jealous people in the dress of Vaisnavas in this Krsna consciousness movement, and they should be completely neglected. There is no need to serve a jealous person who is in the dress of a Vaisnava. When Narottama dasa Thakura says chadiya vaisnava seva nistara payeche keba, he is indicating an actual Vaisnava, not an envious or jealous person in the dress of a Vaisnava.

Cc. Madhya 2.218

*********************

 

You most certainly will not think that these references apply to the gbc or Shivarama Maharaja, but it is very clear to me that if they are inimical to sadhu sanga then they are making unecessary division in the guaidya community for other than altruistic or noble motives.

[stonehearted]

Vijay:

"That makes it all the more surprising how poorly it is written. More important than the grammatical errors I found the first time I skimmed the document are the errors in logic. "

 

Please give backed up critisism im not intrested in grammer mistkes, if you've found holes say so, the above statement was from your last post which i ignored as it contains no points just general dismisal without evidence.

 

 

"I've gone through the booklet and found that the actual context of many of the quotations Sivarama Maharaja uses are inappropriate to the situations he addresses in the booklet. "

 

Okay so here you say it again, okay give what u BELIEVE is the correct context.

A general dismisal is useless.

 

 

The note I wrote earlier was something dashed off after going through Maharaja's article once. My notes are at home, so I'm not able to honor your request immediately. If I do find the time to write an analysis of his article (can't review the book because I don't own one), I will do so carefully in an article meant for wider circulation than this little board.

 

Before I do so, though, I need to consider a couple of things. First, do I want to appear to challenge Sivarama Maharaja, and by implication the entire GBC, in public? I'm not afraid to do so, nor am I incapable. About a year ago, I wrote a long response to an article by one of ISKCON's gurus about a book one of our Godbrothers wrote. That was available at the same time on all three of the most popular "news" sites--Dipka, VNN, and Chakra. There is no other article about which this is true. Several leaders in ISKCON wrote letters of appreciation, and there was noe response from my interlocutor. I would, of course have to be certain that I challenge the points themselves and their presentation, since I have no desire to complicate my life with Vaishnava aparadha.

 

Another consideration is whether such a project is really worth my time and energy. Those who can see the problems in the article, and in the book, don't need my help. They know where the holes are--the places where the logic is faulty or the Gaudiya siddhanta is compromised. Some would think I'm writing a response in order to promote a particular guru who may often be presented as someone ISKCON needs to follow in order to progress. Of course, no one who knows me at all would make this assumption because I am not a follower of this Vaishnava preacher. Others would think I'm writing out of bitterness, out of a desire to criticize ISKCON and its leadership. But that's also untrue; I have spent most of my life working in or with ISKCON. It has been quite a long time since I have been under the control of any GBC members, but I have no animosity toward ISKCON or its leaders. When I lived near an ISKCON center (where I've lived for the last 3+ years has no ISKCON center), I was a member of the temple's board of directors, I worshiped the temple's Govardhana-shila for over nine years and did other regular Deity worship in the temple, helped cook feasts, and gave classes at least once a week. I guess I'm still a member of ISKCON, as I have been for almost 35 years, even though I live out in the middle of the ocean. The real point is that my work, my sadhana, my service to Vaishnavas, and my domestic duties leave little time for such things, and I need to set priorities.

 

 

"As for others, well, Sivaram Maharaja has in several places referred to ISKCON members as innocent, inexperienced, and many other words that could be synonyms for foolish."

 

What is your point, whats the hidden meaning that iskcon is made of foolish people therefore go to a higher siksa guru?

 

 

Certainly not, if you're referring to current controversies. I do believe firmly--and I have said this publicly on many occasions and in many forums--that ISKCON's problems and the lack of real vigor seen in many parts of the world (I"m thinking particularly of the US, where almost every temple needs to import cooks, pujaris, and others from India and Eastern Europe just to staff the daily maintenance programs) can be traced to a culture in the institution where it's acceptable to criticize superior Vaishnavas. This is particularly visible in the treatment of Srila Sridhar Maharaja in the '80s. I think that much of the trouble with Narayan Maharaja can be traced to the way the GBC treated him in the '90s. He had no preaching in the West before the GBC strongarmed Sivarama Maharaja and the others into publicly repudiating their connection with him and assenting to a campaign of vilification. Tamal Krishna Maharaja apparently told some devotees that he felt his prostate cancer may have been a reaction to his offenses against Narayana Maharaja.

 

What I mean is that the attitude of many of ISKCON's leaders is that the ordinary ISKCON members are ignorant, don't (maybe can't) understand anything about Krishna consciousness, and so must submit to them.

 

I'm not interested in a debate with you. I don't fancy myself a courtroom advocate. And I suspect that however well I may support my assertions (and I do have the specifics), you would never acknowledge anything substantial, and this would turn into something like the ritvik thing, where those who have time for it talk past each other endlessly. And I'm certainly not interested in talking anyone out of ISKCON or undermining their faith in its leaders. I am more than willing to discuss the reasons I don't have the same faith, although I have doubts about whether a board such as this is an appropriate place to do so.

[Guest guest]

well Lord Jesus gave alot of devotees His Grace Srila Prabhupada and Srila Prabhupada gave alot of people Lord Krsna, why are some carrying so much anger toward each other ie. this camp and that camp, as seen within Iskcon ?

will the fighting ever stop or are the boys just attached to their toys ? or are they simply afraid ?

[vijay]

"Vijay,

Sivarama Maharja's pamphlet is just another knotch on the belt of misdirection inspired by gbc sectarianism, in the name of His Divine Grace's vanih. Rtvks quote just as extensivly from His Divine Grace, and their position re guru tattva is just as untenable as the gbc's. "

 

Yes we quote from srila prabhupada he is our founder acarya and he set up ISKCON. It was you guys who were endlessly quoting prabhupada at the begining of this thread as well as sridhar maharaj and others to prove that every iskcon memeber should come to a so called self appointed acraya of iskcon. Besides your statement above holds no athority i dont care what your opinion is. It is the point of a discussion to quote evidence.

 

"Srila Prabhupada spoke and wrote very clearly regarding Srila Rupa Gosvamis' instructions regarding adau sraddha tatah sadhu-sanga. (Cc. Adi 1.35, Antya 5.131 etc.) Frankly it doesn't really matter what the gbc tells people to think or what Sivarama Mah tries to pass off as His Divine Grace's will by quoting from letters out of context."

 

Its you guys that quote stuff out of context, 'he is even my siksa guru' when in context prabhupada was persuading his diciple not to go to another god brother.

 

"Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura cautioned taking association from individuals who distort guadiya siddhanta in its own name. Discouraging sadhu-sanga is just another example of a polluted and mixed conception of bhakti. "

 

Srila prabhupada also limited our association with his god brothers. Please read previous points. They are in more context than any of the quotes i have been given by anyone on this thread.

 

All you guys do is try and get iskcon members to come to your guru maharaj, please try and save other unlimited souls your help is not appreciated. gm motives have always been suspicious. for years prabhupada pleaded to get help from his god brothers none come, but now there are so many so-called self effulgent acaryas that should be the siksa gurus of iskcon and if iskcon decline it then they are bogus.

 

 

 

 

[vijay]

"You most certainly will not think that these references apply to the gbc or Shivarama Maharaja, but it is very clear to me that if they are inimical to sadhu sanga then they are making unecessary division in the guaidya community for other than altruistic or noble motives."

 

No your right i dont agree.

[Guest guest]

Hare Krsna Prabhus can you tell me who is presently pure devotee as my children are reaching age to be serious taking diksa or should I do myself as initiated aspiring disciple of His divine grace our Srila Prabhupada more than 30 years. Or better to follow harpings of thiest and tell them heartbroken they need s not to be proper initiated by representative of their Lordships Sri Sri Caitanya Nityananda this day and age /

[Guest guest]

"All you guys do is try and get iskcon members to come to your guru maharaj.."

 

"all you guys..." is aparadha.. a devotee speaks personally

 

you came here to make a crusade, you did not have any real doubt or will to discuss..that's demonstrated by the fact that you are speculating on the intention of devotees and the fact that you avoided many of the answers and objections

 

the tide will soon change, and it is already changing.. iskcon math is already opening doors to tradition and collaboration with other maths... if you do not do it, you'll kill iskcon or you'll give it to ritviks

[vijay]

Haribol,

Thank you for your post I would sincerly like to apologise if I caused any offences to you, you said

"but I have no animosity toward ISKCON or its leaders"

I was under the impression that you were also one who posted and agreed with statements as below. (It gets confusing with so many guests).

Puru prabhu

"How can anyone who accepts, the current iskcon gbc,it's law book and apasiddhantic resolution concerning jiva tattva be a bona fide anything except a bona fide cheater?"

 

Anyway I usually also dont post on these forums and I also dont agree with everything ISKCON does or has done, but still work under thier athority, nothing as much as you have done prabhu I am relatively new to this.

 

Statements like the below and posting so much stuff to minimise and demonise all of iskcon with many gurus I accept my siksa guru ticks me off. I have actually never engaged in a full on debate with any of these guys as ive been told its not worth it and could end up critising senior vaishnavs which i think i may of done at least mentally. we are given booklets like sivarama swamis one and others as on one end we have ritviks distributing and stealing databases of our temple in london and sending propoganda, and on the otherside on occasion the followers of narayan maharaj distributing leaflets at festival times to the innocent public that come for darshans on festival days, thus some of the senior congrgation give literature and training on iskcons past so they can alliviate some of the doubts caused by this infighting on iskcon ground.

 

 

 

 

 

[vijay]

Thanks for correcting me,

 

what have i avoided, theres just been so many points.

 

 

"you came here to make a crusade,"

 

Prabhu when all my siksha guru in Iskcon are called bogus and cheaters, I will try and defend them. I have never said such a thing about anyones seniors.

 

When this happens I can either walk away which is what ive usually done or answer each point that they give to justify this.

 

And I dont mind collaboration and some work between maths, I just mind when devotees from other maths say come listen to my guru or your all bogus and cheaters.

[stonehearted]

How old are your kids? Where do you live? Who do you associate with? Let them meet some Gaudiya preachers you respect and let them make the decision themselves. After all, they are the ones who will have to live with it. Have they asked you for initiation? Have they expressed the opinion that you are the only devotee they trust in this way? (One of my daughters told me that a few years ago.) Why the hurry? My best advice is to tell them to take their time, explore widely, and make such a decision with the utmost caution. This is not something that should be legislated in any way or imposed on others in any form.

 

Read Srila Sridhar Maharaja's Sri Guru and His Grace. It's the clearest exploration of this topic I have seen. Your kids are entering the land of faith; that faith needs to be genuine, and the person in whom that faith is reposed should be qualified to help. This is not about who is the "purest" devotee, or the "best" or "highest" guru. This is about spiritual life. Remember that Jiva strongly warns against accepting a guru based on family, village, ecclesiastical,or any other social considerations.

 

If you'd like to discuss this privately, you can write me at williamr{at}hawaii{dot}edu.

[stonehearted]

There's no offense to forgive and nothing for you to apologize to me for. I think you misread or misunderstood me. Puru has been posting as a guest. I don't post as a guest. On the few occasions when I did inadvertently post before logging on, I noticed it and immediately said so in another post.

 

I agree with a lot of what Puru says, but we are not in complete accord on everything. I don't have the kind of relationship with Narayana Maharaja that he has, but I respect Maharaja and I'm always happy to see him. Whatever else anyone may say about him, he's more Krishna conscious than most devotees I've known over the last 35 years. I also think that he and/or his Western followers do and say things that stike many of us as intemperate, sometimes even agressive. But I think that probably started when the GBC turned against him, as I said before. I know of many devotees, Godbrothers and -sisters, as well as their children, who are flourishing spiritually in his company.

 

As I said before, I have not worked under any GBC for a very long time, but I respect them for trying to maintain and grow Srila Prabhupada's institution, and whenever I visit a temple or work with ISKCON devotees, I follow whatever rules I can. But I never pretend to agree.

[theist]

 

and on the otherside on occasion the followers of narayan maharaj distributing leaflets at festival times to the innocent public that come for darshans on festival days, ...

 

 

[Guest guest]

Vijay,

Kindly read these verses and purports from Sri Cc.

 

TEXT 74

 

TEXT

 

yanhara darsane mukhe aise krsna-nama

tanhare janiha tumi 'vaisnava-pradhana'

 

SYNONYMS

 

yanhara darsane--by the sight of whom; mukhe--in the mouth; aise--automatically awakens; krsna-nama--the holy name of Krsna; tanhare--him; janiha--must know; tumi--you; vaisnava-pradhana--the first-class Vaisnava.

 

TRANSLATION

 

Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu said, «A first-class Vaisnava is he whose very presence makes others chant the holy name of Krsna."

 

PURPORT

 

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura says that if an observer immediately remembers the holy name of Krsna upon seeing a Vaisnava, that Vaisnava should be considered a maha-bhagavata, a first-class devotee. Such a Vaisnava is always aware of his Krsna conscious duty, and he is enlightened in self-realization. He is always in love with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krsna, and this love is without adulteration. Because of this love, he is always awake to transcendental realization. Because he knows that Krsna consciousness is the basis of knowledge and action, he sees everything connected with Krsna. Such a person is able to chant the holy name of Krsna perfectly. Such a maha-bhagavata Vaisnava has the transcendental eyes to see who is sleeping under the spell of maya, and he engages himself in awakening sleeping conditioned beings by spreading the knowledge of Krsna consciousness. He opens eyes that are closed by forgetfulness of Krsna. Thus the living entity is liberated from the dullness of material energy and is engaged fully in the service of the Lord. The madhyama-adhikari Vaisnava can awaken others to Krsna consciousness and engage them in duties whereby they can advance. It is therefore said in Caitanya-caritamrta (Madhya-lila, Chapter Six, verse 279):

 

lohake yavat sparsi' hema nahi kare

tavat sparsa-mani keha cinite na pare

 

"One cannot understand the value of touchstone until it turns iron into gold." One should judge by action, not by promises. A maha-bhagavata can turn a living entity from abominable material life to the Lord's service. This is the test of a maha-bhagavata. Although preaching is not meant for a maha-bhagavata, a maha-bhagavata can descend to the platform of madhyama-bhagavata just to convert others to Vaisnavism. Actually a maha-bhagavata is fit to spread Krsna consciousness, but he does not distinguish where Krsna consciousness should be spread from where it should not. He thinks that everyone is competent to accept Krsna consciousness if the chance is provided. A neophyte and intermediate devotee should always be anxious to hear the maha-bhagavata and serve him in every respect. The neophyte and intermediate devotees can gradually rise to the platform of uttama-adhikari and become first-class devotees. Symptoms of a first-class devotee are given in Srimad-Bhagavatam (11.2.45):

 

sarva-bhutesu yah pasyed

bhagavad-bhavam atmanah

bhutani bhagavaty atmany

esa bhagavatottamah

 

When teaching Sanatana Gosvami, the Lord further said:

 

sastra-yuktye sunipuna, drdha-sraddha yanra

'uttama-adhikari' se taraye samsara

 

"If one is expert in Vedic literature and has full faith in the Supreme Lord, then he is an uttama-adhikari, a first-class Vaisnava, a topmost Vaisnava who can deliver the whole world and turn everyone to Krsna consciousness." (Cc. Madhya 22.65) With great love and affection, the maha-bhagavata observes the Supreme Personality of Godhead, devotional service and the devotee. He observes nothing beyond Krsna, Krsna consciousness and Krsna's devotees. The maha-bhagavata knows that everyone is engaged in the Lord's service in different ways. He therefore descends to the middle platform to elevate everyone to the Krsna conscious position.

 

Madhya lila 14.74

 

and

 

TEXT 71

 

TEXT

 

rati-prema-taratamye bhakta----tara-tama

ekadasa skandhe tara kariyache laksana

 

SYNONYMS

 

rati--of attachment; prema--and love; taratamye--by comparison; bhakta--devotee; tara-tama--superior and superlative; ekadasa skandhe--in the Eleventh Canto of Srimad-Bhagavatam; tara--of him; kariyache--has made; laksana--symptoms.

 

TRANSLATION

 

"A devotee is considered superlative and superior according to his attachment and love. In the Eleventh Canto of Srimad-Bhagavatam, the following symptoms have been ascertained.

 

PURPORT

 

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura has stated that if one has developed faith in Krsna consciousness, he is to be considered an eligible candidate for further advancement in Krsna consciousness. Those who have faith are divided into three categories-uttama, madhyama and kanistha (first-class, second-class and neophyte). A first-class devotee has firm conviction in the revealed scriptures and is expert in arguing according to the sastras. He is firmly convinced of the science of Krsna consciousness. The madhyama-adhikari, or second-class devotee, has firm conviction in Krsna consciousness, but he cannot support his conviction by citing sastric references. The neophyte devotee does not yet have firm faith. In this way the devotees are typed.

The standard of devotion is also categorized in the same way. A neophyte believes that only love of Krsna or Krsna consciousness is very good, but he may not know the basis of pure Krsna consciousness or how one can become a perfect devotee. Sometimes in the heart of a neophyte there is attraction for karma, jnana or yoga. When he is free and transcendental to mixed devotional activity, he becomes a second-class devotee. When he becomes expert in logic and can refer to the sastras, he becomes a first-class devotee. The devotees are also described as positive, comparative and superlative, in terms of their love and attachment for Krsna.

It should be understood that a madhyama-adhikari, a second-class devotee, is fully convinced of Krsna consciousness but cannot support his convictions with sastric reference. A neophyte may fall down by associating with nondevotees because he is not firmly convinced and strongly situated. The second-class devotee, even though he cannot support his position with sastric reference, can gradually become a first-class devotee by studying the sastras and associating with a first-class devotee. However, if the second-class devotee does not advance himself by associating with a first-class devotee, he makes no progress. There is no possibility that a first-class devotee will fall down, even though he may mix with nondevotees to preach. Conviction and faith gradually increase to make one an uttama-adhikari, a first-class devotee.

cc. Madhya 22.71

 

Siva Rama Maharaja's pamphlet, which you brought up, is against this principle in the name of loyalty to iskcon and Srila Prabhupada's instructions. Regardless, the godbrothers who His Divine Grace did not want us to associate with were those of his godbrothers who he felt had deviated from the orders of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura. We neither hear from such persons or advocate that anyone else do either. Most of them are long gone anyway. I only know of two or three of SBSST's disciples who are even still on the planet.

 

Srila Sridhar Maharja,and Srila Bhakti Prajnan Kesava Maharja were both close friends of His Divine Grace, his siksa guru and his sannyasa guru respectively. They are not included in the group alluded to in His Divine Grace's letters and statements, despite gbc propaganada that tries to lump them in with the others. You can re read Cc. Adi lila 12.8-11 to understand that there were two groups of godbrothers, and one of those groups followed SBSST strictly. Srila Narayana Maharaja is one of the first siksa disciples of His Divine Grace, and met him in l947, long before most of us even took this birth. His Divine Grace personally requested him to perform his samadhi ceremony and to help his disciples in the future. That conversation was translated from Hindi and is available if you want to examine it.

 

No one is interested in "recruiting" iskcon members. satyam eva jayate. If the truth concerning self-deception is too much for you to digest then stay off the internet and just visit the local iskcon temple and hear from its membership.

 

Iskcon leaders discredit themselves sufficiently with no need of assistance or comments from anyone else. They have been falling like dominoes since l977. Prthu Prabhu is simply the latest on the list. Who will be next?

 

The salient point for you to understand is that the gbc has been consistant in discouraging sadhu-sanga, and not understanding the importance of vapuh association with pure devotees for more than two decades. They started this misdirection even during His Divine Grace's lifetime. Srila Prabhupada requested ALL of his disciples to come and take his divine association at the end of his nara-lila, Sripad Satsvarupa Mah and the other gbc members had a different idea and told everyone to stay in their respective temples. A large number of them even left Brndavana and DID NOT understand that they should have stayed with His Divine Grace right there. They NEVER passed on Srila Prabhupada's instruction then and misinterpret the principle of sadhu-sanga to the present day.

 

After His Divine Grace's departure they simply lacked the foresight to understand that they themselves, and the devotee community at large still needed to hear from self realized souls and seek out their association.

 

The gbc has misinterpreted His Divine Grace's instructions in so many ways. They assumed they should appoint zonal acaryas and take disciples long before they had real qualification to do so. They have turned Srila Prabhupada's mission into either "Hindu dharma" or something a far cry from the mission His Divine Grace established, to present to the world the teachings of Srila Rupa and Raghunatha.

 

His Divine Grace has written so many places in his books, and spoken in his lectures so many times that this element of sadhu-sanga is essential for spiritual progress. Any attempt to "protect" us from pure devotees in our guru parampara is a misdirection. That is all. Certainly hearing from mayavadi's or those inimical to the mission of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura and Srila Rupa Gosvami is essential for all of us. When such inmical attitude is found in the managers of any institution then they should also be rejected, and we should hear from qualified speakers. Certainly during His Divine Grace's nara lila there was no need to look outside iskcon for Vaisnava association. 27 years later the situation as drastically changed. His Divine Grace did not institutionalize Gaudiya Vaisnavism, despite the opinions of institutional management, bur rather illuminated its essence.

 

I won't listen to anyone who says sadhu-sanga is illegal, ill advised or in opposition to the instructions in His Divine Grace's books and lectures. How to apply the principle is an individual matter of the heart vijay.

You can decide for yourself or let Sivarama Maharaja and the gbc think for you.

[Guest guest]

***but it is nonsense to point that the "non iskcon" preach always nonsense

 

Not always. read carefully. "Guru above sastra" it is nonsence as example.

[vijay]

Iskcon leaders discredit themselves sufficiently with no need of assistance or comments from anyone else. They have been falling like dominoes since l977. Prthu Prabhu is simply the latest on the list. Who will be next?

 

Doubt 9: Considering the fall-down of so many

ISKCON gurus and the disorganised state of the Society,

can it really be said that members of ISKCON can give sufficient guidance?

 

Answer: This doubt argues “the logic of the remainder,”

(Parisesya-nyaya, means “the logic of the remainder,” or by elimination of unsatisfactory evidence, what is left is proof.) which translates as follows: ISKCON is in trouble,

and since there are no qualified gurus in the Society, out of necessity devotees must take Siksa (and diksa) from

Vaishnavas outside.

 

This doubt is built on two wobbly fundamentals. The first is the misconception that disarray in certain areas of

ISKCON is a sign of spiritual failure. The second extrapolates that because some ISKCON gurus have proven themselves disqualified, all ISKCON gurus are disqualified.

To argue that problems in the Society are a sign of its

failure is naïve.(Srila Prabhupada scoffed at the idea of perfection even in ISKCON: “So we shall not expect that anywhere there is any Utopia. Rather, that is impersonalism. People should not expect that even in the Krishna Consciousness Society there will be Utopia. Because devotees are persons, therefore there will always be some lacking. …” (Letter, Bombay, February 4, 1972)) For example, Srila Prabhupada writes that even the disorder that customarily accompanies the passing of the acarya can be rectified by the efforts of his sincere followers.(Commenting in the Bhagavatam, Prabhupada writes, “The acarya, the authorized representative of the Supreme Lord, establishes these principles (religion), but when he disappears, things once again become disordered. The perfect disciples of the acarya try to relieve the situation by sincerely following the instructions of the spiritual master.” (Bhag. 4.28.48, purport))

It is paradoxical that some Vaishavas condemn

ISKCON’s struggles, their own societies having transited

through similar problems in the past, nay, even experiencing

such problems at present. And if these same Vaishnavas,

who, in srila Prabhupada’s estimation, were responsible

for chaos in their own organisation(Speaking about the turmoil caused in another Society, Prabhupada

wrote, “So S and his two associate gentlemen unauthorizedly selected one acarya and later it proved a failure.” (Letter, Tirupati, April 28, 1974) Prabhupada writes, “Despite the spiritual master’s order to form a governing body and execute the missionary activities … the two unauthorized factions began litigation that is still going on after forty years with no decision.” (Cc. adi 12.8, purport) Prabhupada says, “That T, unnecessarily he was envious, whole life fighting, fighting, fighting in the court and died. Simply planning.” (Conversation, Bombay,January 8, 1977)) are now qualified to

be gurus, then why not value the devotees of ISKCON by

the same standard?

 

"I won't listen to anyone who says sadhu-sanga is illegal, ill advised or in opposition to the instructions in His Divine Grace's books and lectures. How to apply the principle is an individual matter of the heart vijay"

 

And I also wont listen to anyone who brands all devotees in iskcon as bogus and cheaters if they do not go to your guru.

 

End of discussion, we are just going round and round.

 

 

 

 

[vijay]

I rescpect narayan maharaj and some diciples of sridhara swami. I also have a friend who took sanyas in nrsinga maharajs matha, I know Iskcon has not treated these senior vaishnavas in the best way and some of these senior vaishnavas actually wanted the best for Iskcon and they tried helping as much as they could, I am also aware that because of neophyte attitudes in gbc that conflicts agro was created. sivarama swami also talks about this. I can therefore also understand the feelings of some aggressive diciples in these mathas. This has had a tit for tat effect esculating propoganda against each other. Gbc have also made mistakes with many of its own members, I however also have much rescpect for gurus in iskcon who continue to work in srila prabhupads iskcon putting their life and soul executing instruction given by his divine grace. I can not and will not brand a whole group of vaishnava as ALL cheaters and bogus. I also do not take critism by iskcon members against senior vaishnavas.

 

Hopefully one day there can be true collaboration and everyone will learn how to deal with vaishnavas in the best possible way.

 

 

[Guest guest]

"Hopefully one day there can be true collaboration and everyone will learn how to deal with vaishnavas in the best possible way"

 

so you want this but you promote separatism for days helped by that unfortunate book by sivaram swami...

 

 

 

harekrishna.. discussing in this forum with devotees of all families you are going against the iskcon sectarian laws and working for the wonderful future that you too desire

 

jaya!

[vijay]

"Hopefully one day there can be true collaboration and everyone will learn how to deal with vaishnavas in the best possible way"

 

so you want this but you promote separatism for days helped by that unfortunate book by sivaram swami

-------------------

By collaboration I mean preach together in harmony and help each other if the desire is there on both sides and issues can be sorted. I dont mean taking any gaudiya matha guru as the siksa guru for iskcon.

[Guest guest]

by collaboration i mean preach together and ask you for instructions if a recognize in you a true vaishnava (that you surely are).. this is collaboration

 

organizations do not have guru, they are not persons, but devotees do have gurus..and these gurus mix together if the families mix together and sincere people do not make artificial discriminations: if they see a vaishnava,they surrender

 

that's all

 

organizational plans to keep practitioneers away from pure vaishnavas but close to other pure vaishnavas are simply hellish

[vijay]

You may say mix freely but its not what prabhupada said he has said opposite so there needs to be guidelines according to his instructions.

 

I am not going to post eveidence for this again we keep on going round and round and round.

 

Haribol.

 

 

[Guest guest]

i simply do not understand what's mixing freely or not freely

 

i am disciple of a gaudya math guru, you are disciple of an iskcon gaudya math guru and we are speaking about krsna and prabhupada in this forum

 

we are serving krsna together by exchanging opinions... ishta gosti... i am doing it happily and freely

 

that's the spirit

 

if your guru gave restrictions in mixing freely with me, you are not following his instructions..

 

i do not think that you and me are doing something against srila prabhupada

[vijay]

"if your guru gave restrictions in mixing freely with me, you are not following his instructions.. "

 

Srila prabhupada gave that instruction,

personally we have discussed stuff and that to me is fine i havent accepted your siksa which is in conflict of what I have been taught and read from srila prabhupadas books.

 

I have not accepted your siksa about iskcon and prabhupadas intentions, that iskcon is bogus and full of cheaters unless approaching your guru. with views like that i do not want to mix with you freely. And i therefore think the advice is sound. Hare krishna

 

You may not be puru and these may not be your views, my apologies if that is the case, with a guest username i can not tell