What will Gaudiya Vaisnavism be like in 2000 years?

[theist]

Babhru, but now I'm getting red faced. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

 

Vijay. no no no! no leashs. Especially from me. You haven't been here long enough to see me go on my style of tirade. But I need to change my mood and need examples to follow.

[Guest guest]

The paradox for you vijay is that because you don't have a siksa guru outside of the iskcon institution, you don't see the need for one. You have been convinced that institutinal loyalty=bhakti. As you wish.

 

Therefore you have so many "miskconceptions" based on both gbc law and whatever association you find there. Apparant discrepancies on any tattva between what you may think Srila Prabhupada was teaching and the books of the predecessor acaryas can never therefore be resolved for such blind following. Your solution is to hide your head in the philosophical sand and say that even discussion of such topic is a distraction to your sadhana/bhajana. Again as you wish. I guess I should apologize for trying to burst your Vaikuntha institutional bubble, but this forum is not only for your benefit and satyam eva jayate!

 

 

 

His divine grace when asked directly many times, he said we were with krsna, 'back home back to god head' etc,

when he has said directly that is what we accept as founder acarya of iskcon,

 

 

If this is what you beleive then you have to accept EVERYTHING he said in the matter. We can go to Srila Prabhuapada's direct vanih for clarification. Someone wrote Prabhupada a letter and asked, "Did we ever see Krsna?" Prabhupada replied, "Yes, we saw Krsna, just as the child was with the father before coming out of the mother's womb."

 

["Regarding your second question, have the conditioned souls ever seen Krsna? Were they with the Lord before being conditioned by the desire to lord it over material nature? Yes, the conditioned souls are parts and parcels of the Lord and thus they were with Krsna before being conditioned. Just as the child must have seen his father because the father places the child in the womb of the mother, similarly each soul has seen Krsna or the Supreme Father." (Letter to Jagadisa, Los Angeles, 25 April, 1970)]

 

In other words, he was saying that we never saw Krsna. We were with Krsna because we came from Krsna - from His tatastha-sakti. That person who came out of his mother's womb never actually associated with the father previously. Later on he meets his father.

 

There is another quote in the Krsna Book that says when we finally return back to godhead that we take birth on the planet where the Supreme Lord's pastimes are being manifest and see Hiim for the first time. When I can find the exact reference I'll happily post it for you.

 

There are also so many explanations in the 7th Canto of SB conerning the "fall" of Jaya and Vijaya, and a final statement in the matter in the 3rd canto:

 

"The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha, for it is the eternal abode.”

(Bhäg. 3.16.26, purport)

 

You can ignore Kundali Prabhu's book on the jiva,and Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura's Jaiva Dharma since the gbc told you to believe that anything beyond gbc reasoning concerning jiva tattva is beyond you and unecesary. As you and they wish.

 

Since Drutakarma was successful in preventing the translation of the remaining 5 sad sandharba of Srila Jiva Gosvami, you can avoid them also. This is a convenient way to accept gbc resolutions that are contrary to actual guadiya siddhanta and feel safe like the ostridge with his head in the sand. Again as you wish.

 

For such understanding "when he has said directly that is what we accept as founder acarya of iskcon.

Kundali Prabhu devoted one entire chapter to what His Divine Grace wrote in the matter:

FIRST WAVE: CHAPTER FOUR

THE ORIGIN OF THE JIVA

ACCORDING TO Srila PRABHUPÄDA

I can post the whole chapter it you will read it, otherwise not.

 

Here are two other articles that illuminate the matter as well, with many refernces to His Divine Grace's vanih.

 

The Final Proof: The Jiva Did Not Fall From Goloka

http://www.purebhakti.com/lectures/lecture20020216eve.shtml

 

Branch Moon Logic

http://www.purebhakti.com/lectures/lecture20011215.shtml

 

Srila Prabhupada NEVER said or wrote in his books that we were once in goloka vrndavana and left there to come here. But since it is kali yuga I have read one godbrother who accepts that we came from tatastha but only after we left goloka. Of course this is his own idea and not corroborated by any shastra.

 

 

 

 

he told us not to jump over him trying to know what previous acaryas ment. He also said the issue is not so important. I dont think it will block anyone from going back to godhead whatever theory they hold true.

That is what I accept.

 

 

 

A convenient way to avoid any reasonable discussion of jiva-tattva and our siddhanta. "Oh HDG said not to worry about it." Well look what Srila Krsnadas Kaviraja says in the Cc. and what His Divine Grace's purport says.

 

TEXT 117

 

 

TEXT

 

 

siddhanta baliya citte na kara alasa

 

iha ha-ite krsne lage sudrdha manasa

 

 

SYNONYMS

 

 

siddhanta--conclusion; baliya--considering; citte--in the mind; na kara--do not be; alasa--lazy; iha--this; ha-ite--from; krsne--in Lord Krsna; lage--becomes fixed; su-drdha--very firm; manasa--the mind.

 

 

TRANSLATION

 

 

A sincere student should not neglect the discussion of such conclusions, considering them controversial, for such discussions strengthen the mind. Thus one's mind becomes attached to Sri Krsna.

 

 

PURPORT

 

 

There are many students who, in spite of reading the Bhagavad-gita, misunderstand Krsna because of imperfect knowledge and conclude Him to be an ordinary, historical personality. This one must not do. One should be particularly careful to understand the truth about Krsna. If because of laziness one does not come to know Krsna conclusively, one will be misguided about the cult of devotion, like those who declare themselves advanced devotees and imitate the transcendental symptoms sometimes observed in liberated souls. Although the use of thoughts and arguments is a most suitable process for inducing an uninitiated person to become a devotee, neophytes in devotional service must always alertly understand Krsna through the vision of the revealed scriptures, the bona fide devotees and the spiritual master. Unless one hears about Sri Krsna from such authorities, one cannot make advancement in devotion to Sri Krsna. The revealed scriptures mention nine means of attaining devotional service, of which the first and foremost is hearing from authority. The seed of devotion cannot sprout unless watered by the process of hearing and chanting. One should submissively receive the transcendental messages from spiritually advanced sources and chant the very same messages for one's own benefit as well as the benefit of one's audience.

 

When Brahma described the situation of pure devotees freed from the culture of empiric philosophy and fruitive actions, he recommended the process of hearing from persons who are on the path of devotion. Following in the footsteps of such liberated souls, who are able to vibrate real transcendental sound, can lead one to the highest stage of devotion, and thus one can become a maha-bhagavata. From the teachings of Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu to Sanatana Gosvami (Cc. Madhya 22.65) we learn:

 

 

sastra-yuktye sunipuna, drdha-sraddha yanra

 

'uttama-adhikari' sei taraye samsara

 

 

"A person who is expert in understanding the conclusion of the revealed scriptures and who fully surrenders to the cause of the Lord is actually able to deliver others from the clutches of material existence." Srila Rupa Gosvami, in his Upadesamrta (3), advises that to make rapid advancement in the cult of devotional service one should be very active and should persevere in executing the duties specified in the revealed scriptures and confirmed by the spiritual master. Accepting the path of liberated souls and the association of pure devotees enriches such activities.

 

Imitation devotees, who wish to advertise themselves as elevated Vaisnavas and who therefore imitate the previous acaryas but do not follow them in principle, are condemned in the words of Srimad-Bhagavatam (2.3.24) as stone-hearted. Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura has commented on their stone-hearted condition as follows: bahir asru-pulakayoh sator api yad dhrdayam na vikriyeta tad asma-saram iti kanisthadhikarinam eva asru-pulakadi-mattve 'pi asma-sara-hrdayataya nindaisa. "Those who shed tears by practice but whose hearts have not changed are to be known as stone-hearted devotees of the lowest grade. Their imitation crying, induced by artificial practice, is always condemned." The desired change of heart referred to above is visible in reluctance to do anything not congenial to the devotional way. To create such a change of heart, conclusive discussion about Sri Krsna and His potencies is absolutely necessary. False devotees may think that simply shedding tears will lead one to the transcendental plane, even if one has not had a factual change in heart, but such a practice is useless if there is no transcendental realization. False devotees, lacking the conclusion of transcendental knowledge, think that artificially shedding tears will deliver them. Similarly, other false devotees think that studying books of the previous acaryas is unadvisable, like studying dry empiric philosophies. But Srila Jiva Gosvami, following the previous acaryas, has inculcated the conclusions of the scriptures in the six theses called the Sat-sandarbhas. False devotees who have very little knowledge of such conclusions fail to achieve pure devotion for want of zeal in accepting the favorable directions for devotional service given by self-realized devotees. Such false devotees are like impersonalists, who also consider devotional service no better than ordinary fruitive actions

 

 

Cc. Adi 2.117

 

And there is no question of jumping over the acarya. There is every possibility of misunderstanding what any of the acaryas have written without the association and assistance of a living sad-guru in our guru parampara. SBSST very clearly stated you cannot understand the writing of the predecessor acarya by empirical study.

 

Those who repeat the teachings of Thakur Bhaktivinode from memory do not necessarily understand the meaning of the words they mechanically repeat. Those who can pass an empiric examination regarding the contents of his writings are not necessarily also self-realised souls. They may not at all know the real meaning of the words they have learnt by the method of empiric study.Take for example the Name "Krishna". Every reader of Thakur Bhaktivinode's works must be aware that the Name manifests Himself on the lips of His serving devotees although He is inaccessible to our mundane senses. It is one thing to pass the examination by reproducing this true conclusion from the writings of Thakur Bhaktivinode and quite another matter to realise the Nature of the Holy Name of Krishna by the process conveyed by the words. . . . "

 

Those who pretend to recognise the Divine Mission of Thakur Bhaktivinode without aspiring to the unconditional service of those pure souls who really follow the teachings of the Thakur by the method enjoined by the scriptures and explained by Thakur Bhaktivinode in a way that is so eminently suited to the requirements of the sophisticated mentality of the present Age, only deceive themselves and their willing victims by their hypocritical professions and performances. These persons must not be confounded with the bonafide members of the flock.

 

 

 

These plain words need not be misrepresented, by arrogant persons who are full of the vanity of empiric ignorance, as the pronouncements of aggressive sectarianism. The aggressive pronouncement of the concrete Truth is the crying necessity of the moment for silencing the aggressive propaganda of specific untruths that is being carried on all over the world by the preachers of empiric contrivances for the amelioration of the hard lot of conditioned souls. The empiric propaganda clothes itself in the language of negative abstraction for deluding those who are engrossed in the selfish pursuit of worldly enjoyment.

 

But there is a positive and concrete function of the pure soul which should not be perversely confounded with any utilitarian form of worldly activity. Mankind stands in need of that positive spiritual function of which the hypocritical impersonalists are in absolute ignorance. The positive function of the soul harmonises the claims of extreme selfishness with those of extreme self-abnegation in the society of pure souls even in this mundane world. In its concrete realisable form the function is perfectly inaccessible to the empiric understanding. Its imperfect and misleading conception alone is available by the study of the Scriptures to the conditioned soul that is not helped by the causeless grace of the pure devotees of Godhead.

 

 

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura,

The Harmonist, December 1931, vol. XXIX No.6

http://bvml.org/SBSST/tb.htm

*************************

 

If you are so confident to accept the present "system" of initiating in iskcon, and admit that it is flawed, then all the more reason that iskcon members should be allowed to take siksa from outside the institution from bona fide Vaisnavas more highly qualified than the "gurus" within iskcon. Of course the price of accepting such siksa is to be ejected from the institution, since its leadership is so caught up in their own rhetoric. After more than two decades they believe each other instead of His Divine Grace and the rest of our guru parampara. As you all wish.

 

Tamal Krsna could have taken all of his disciples to hear from his siksa guru, but instead he chose to reject him to keep in the good grace of the gbc. I firmly beleive that he was conflicted about this up till the time of his demise.

But no matter to you viajy!!

 

Plain and simple choice TKG and others made. Position instead of sadhu-sanga. The result is they had/have each other and have cut themselves and the devotees in iskcon off from the rest of the Gaudiya Vaisnava world. They clearly think that this position was advocated by His Divine Grace and they preach it with avengance. That is why I consider their institutional sectarian position tantamount to cheating, and your good self one of the cheated.

 

The jiva issue is simply one of many examples as to how the gbc has deviated His Divine Grace's mission from our gaudiya siddhanta, and all in the name of the founder-acarya. Sad indeed.

[Guest guest]

This is the most comprehensive work on the origin of the jiva according to Gaudiya siddhanta, including many Prabhupada quotes, and reasons for Prabhupada's contradictory statements. (I had come to the same exact conclusion)

 

Illuminations on Jiva-tattva

 

Puru-You said Drutakarma influenced the stopping of the translation of the last sandarbhas?

 

Can you give some details ? Are you speaking about Kusakratha's translations ?

 

[Guest guest]

from Krsna Book, Chapter 28, pp.186

 

Everyone is under the impression that he is of this material world, and with this concept of life, everyone is working in ignorance in different forms of life. The activities of the particular type of body are called karma, or fruitive action. All conditioned souls under the impression of the bodily concept are working according to their particular types of body. These activities are creating their future conditional life. Because they have very little information of the spiritual world, they do not generally take to spiritual activities, which are called bhakti-yoga. Those who successfully practice bhakti-yoga, after giving up this present body, go directly to the spiritual world and become situated in one of the Vaikuntha planets. The inhabitants of Vrndavana are all pure devotees. Their destination after quitting the body is Krsnaloka. They even surpass the Vaikunthalokas. The fact is, those who are always engaged in Krsna consciousness and mature, pure devotional service are given the chance, after death, to gain Krsna's association in the universes within the material world. Krsna's pastimes are continuously going on, either in this universe or in another universe. Just as the sun globe is passing through many places across the earthly planet, so krsna-lila, or the transcendental advent and pastimes of Krsna, are also going on continually, either in this or another universe. The mature devotees, who have completely executed Krsna consciousness, are immediately transferred to the universe where Krsna is appearing. In that universe the devotees get their first opportunity to associate with Krsna personally and directly. The training goes on, as we see in the vrndavana-lila of Krsna within this planet. Krsna therefore revealed the actual feature of the Vaikuntha planets so that the inhabitants of Vrndavana could know their destination.

[Guest guest]

Shivaji,

Thank you for the reference from gosai.

I was refering to the translation work done by Kundali das and Satyanarayana das not Kusakratha prabhu. Rescinding the bbt funding for their seva was one of the resolutions Drutakarma (aka Michael Cremo) called for.

 

3. I am absolutely convinced that Satyanarayana and Kundali must be removed from the BBT project of publishing Jiva Gosvami’s Sat-sandarbhas and that the entire thing should be handed over to a loyal Prabhupada follower. It is true that, at present, Dravida and Gopiparanadhana have been given authority to filter out the nonsense views that Satyanarayana has introduced in his commentaries, but that is a very precarious situation. It is like having a cook, but you have to check every offering to make sure he isn’t putting meat on the Deity plates. Satyanarayana is very fixed in his views, and he is expert in propagating them among those many devotees who regard him as an authority in shastric matter. I have reports that in Vrndavana lectures and seminars he is directly saying that Srila Prabhupada is wrong on the question of the origin of the jiva. The issue is, however, much larger than the Sandarbha question or even the jiva question. The larger matter at stake is the integrity of Srila Prabhupada’s teachings. If Srila Prabhupada’s teachings on the origin of the jiva, found everywhere in his books, letters, lectures, and conversations, can be relativized by word juggling Sanskrit experts influenced by outside figures, then what next? It seems to me that the Bhaktivedanta Book Trust should only publish authors whose views are totally in line with those of the Bhaktivedanta—His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. . .

 

Of course the fallacy in Drutakarma's argument is that he assumed he had the correct understanding of Srila Prabhupada's vanih in the matter. Kundali Prabhu explained that also in the intorduction to his book.

 

 

 

The above letter sets the stage. We want our readers to note some of the salient features of this letter. One thing is the confidence of the author. The reader is lead to believe that he has the final conclusion on this matter. His tone of confidence alone is enough to intimidate the average reader who will then be overwhelmed by the “facts” that he presents by way of analysis and so on in his book. Nevertheless, we maintain that after reading just a few chapters of this book, our readers will agree that the confidence exhibited by our accuser is unfounded. Indeed, his confidence will be found to be along the lines of what Çréla Viçvanätha Cakravarté Öhäkura describes in Mädhurya Kädambiné as false confidence:

 

A brähmaëa child, having just begun the study of the scriptures, thinks he has become immediately a learned scholar worthy of everyone’s praise. Similarly, a person just beginning devotional service may have the audacity to think that he has mastered everything. This is called utsäha-mayé, filled (puffed-up) with enthusiasm.

 

Another thing worthy of note is the way in which the author of the above letter has cleverly wrapped himself in the name of Çréla Prabhupäda so that to disagree with him is to prove oneself a “Prabhupäda killer” and to remain silent is a virtual admission of guilt. Thus, the only way to prove one’s loyalty to Çréla Prabhupäda is to agree with him. His approach is to cut off all possibility of a dialogue over a philosophical difference of opinion. In fact, the writer seeks no dialogue. He knows all the answers and though we may have a different opinion he is not the least bit interested to know how or why we hold such an opinion. Even if he was right about the jéva issue, we wonder if his approach was the way to handle the matter, what to speak of the fact that he is wrong?

We hope our readers will appreciate by the end of this book how important it is to see through the sort of unjust tactic our accuser has employed; otherwise much harm can be inflicted on our community by those who lack the integrity to deal justly with such differences of opinion. Unless we learn to discriminate in such matters, the devotee community will always be victims of those willing to resort to such conduct—seeking to create a state of panic and prejudice by whipping devotees into an emotional state in the name of Çréla Prabhupäda. His singular purpose is to destroy all credibility of the accused. Indeed, in the eyes of those swayed by this writer’s rhetoric, for us to make any utterance in our defense will only appear to confirm their worse suspicions.

Despite the risk to us, however, we feel obliged to respond to the charges against us, not so much for the sake of saving face, but for preserving the paramparä siddhänta and preserving Çréla Prabhupäda’s place in the disciplic succession. Otherwise, as will be shown in the course of this book, to accept Drutakarma Däsa’s understanding of Çréla Prabhupäda’s teachings on the origin of the jéva is to remove him from being a link in the chain of disciplic succession. We find no evidence anywhere in Prabhupäda’s life or teachings that he wanted to be seen as anything but standing shoulder to shoulder with the disciplic succession. The fall-väda theory (that the spirit soul falls from Vaikuëöha) does, however, isolate him from the paramparä. This is entirely unacceptable to us.

Besides that there are many other unsavory implications of the fall-väda theory, which we reveal and refute in the course of the book.

Before closing we think it is important to briefly outline the background of our working relation with the BBT. In March 1992 we began on our own translating and commenting on the Ñaö-sandarbhas. In late May of the same year we were asked to do the work for the BBT. The condition was that we would agree to working with the BBT’s English and Sanskrit editors, Draviòa Däsa and Gopiparäëadhana Däsa respectively. We agreed. In the next two years we encountered a number of problems, none of which were of our own making. In every instance we showed ourselves to be flexible and solution-oriented and were able to come to satisfactory compromises between us and our two editors and the BBT Trustees.

We proposed a policy that in such circumstances where there was a real or apparent difference of opinion between Çréla Prabhupäda and the author of the work being translated, we would state both views and if possible reconcile them. This met with solid approval from the BBT Trustees. In the specific case of the jéva issue, we knew that Prabhupäda said both things—that we fell from Vaikuëöha and that no one falls from Vaikuëöha—and were quite pleased to follow in his footsteps and say both things. Our work was progressing. The Tattva-sandarbha was completed and scheduled for the printer. While it was in production in Sweden, we were working on Bhagavat-sandarbha.

Now the whole BBT project to bring to the devotees worldwide the greatest philosophical work in our line has stopped. We think that the devotee community should know that this is a direct result of Drutakarma Däsa’s method of expressing his concern that Çréla Prabhupäda’s teachings are being “relativized by word-juggling Sanskrit experts.” In reality the Tattva-sandarbha met the approval of both BBT editors, Draviòa prabhu and Gopiparäëadhana prabhu, solid BBT men for the last 20 years.

Not only did the entire Sandarbha translation project grind to a stop, but the BBT project to construct a facility in Våndävana for translation work was also stopped. All of this stoppage, even if reversed, was done at great expense and inconvenience to the society. At the time of this writing, the fate of these services to Çréla Prabhupäda is still uncertain. In this instance a great disservice was done to the society of devotees, to Çréla Prabhupäda, and to our predecessor äcäryas, for, as will be shown, our accuser is completely mistaken. Indeed, we hope that this book proves the value of studying the writings of our previous äcäryas for properly understanding the philosophy. Çréla Prabhupäda said he gave us the framework and it is up to us to fill in the details. With respect to the siddhänta of our paramparä, we show in this book that there is no better approach than to draw on the works of our äcäryas.

Our fervent hope is that whatever lessons can be extracted from this event will be helpful to avoid such disasters to our society in the future. Unless we learn from these experiences, then, as conventional wisdom has it, history will be doomed to repeat itself. In the world of duality, certainly conflict or controversy can arise at any moment. That is no cause for dismay. What makes a big difference is how the problem is handled. Drutakarma Däsa’s handling of the jéva issue is an example of how not to do it.

Finally, we hope that by presenting this book in response to the above letter and the book Once We Were With Kåñna, the charges against us will be cleared and the controversy over the jéva issue will be resolved forever. Our approach has been to go back up the line of paramparä and see which of the two versions by Çréla Prabhupäda is consistent with our previous äcäryas. We are confident that readers interested in väda will be pleased with the result. If we have made any error or offense in our attempt to present the siddhänta, we pray for the kindness of the Vaiñëavas that they rain their mercy down on us and guide us rightly on this razor-edged path. Hare Kåñna.

 

All glory to Çré Guru and Gauräìga.

 

Kundali das

[vijay]

You're right that i shouldnt be lazy, one day i will read up on this issue as soon as Ive read srila prabhupadas books and maintained regulated sadhana, im sure there is alot to go through, until then i make no conclusion.

 

Thanks for the material.

 

Hari Hari