Guest guest Posted October 5, 2004 Report Share Posted October 5, 2004 Haribol. Can anyone tell me what the Sri Vaishnavas think about the ontological position of the Gopis or Radha? Much appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vanamali Posted October 5, 2004 Report Share Posted October 5, 2004 People have talked about it on Ramanuja.org and you can browse the bhakti archives there. From my limited knowledge: There is much more of a focus on Lakshmi and Her ontological status. In the literature of the Alwars, Krishna's consort in Vrindavana is "Napinnai" who is a jivatma (who is sometimes considered to be Neela devi- the Neela/Leela shakti of Sri Hari) I do not know as to what extent Nappinnai can be identified with Radha. As far as the other gopis are concerned, there is again not a great emphasis. Bhu devi and Neela devi (and Lakshmi also, according to some) are nitya siddha jivas, so I would assume that some of the other gopis are too. Other gopis would naturally be liberated jivas. The emphasis is on Vaikuntha, but I have read the writings of some acharyas that have accepted a heavenly Vrindavana (Goloka) as part of Vaikuntham. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pankaja_Dasa Posted October 5, 2004 Report Share Posted October 5, 2004 I been thinking whether I should say anything as this subject is beyond me. Right: Laksmi is concidered same as Sri Hari. Gopis are concidered higher than Laksmi. So tell me how can Gopis be Jiva-tattva. If you don't know why not /images/graemlins/grin.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vanamali Posted October 5, 2004 Report Share Posted October 5, 2004 We are talking about the Sri Vaishnava (Sri Sampradaya) context. NOT the Gaudiya context! One school of Sri Vaishnavism considers Lakshmi to be Ishvara tattva (like Sri Hari/Krishna) and one school considers Her to be a nitya-siddha jiva. I do not think that they would agree that the gopis are higher than Lakshmi. This is Sri sampradaya, so Sridevi is at the centre. Even in the school that holds Lakshmi as Ishvara tattva, direct amsas of Lakshmi like Bhu devi and Nila devi are not considered to be of Ishvara tattva. They are nitya-siddha jivas, too. Even though they can be said to be direct manifestations of Lakshmi, and are part and parcel of Lakshmi. This is an inquiry into a different tradition, not an analysis of the ontological status of Lakshmi, Radha and the gopis in Gaudiya tradition. /images/graemlins/smile.gif Jaya Sri Krishna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vanamali Posted October 5, 2004 Report Share Posted October 5, 2004 "So tell me how can Gopis be Jiva-tattva. " --------- Even in Gaudiya tradition, some of the gopis are nitya-siddhas and some are liberated jivas. The ashta-sakhis for instance would be nitya-siddha, but some sakhis are indeed liberated souls. The gopis are also generally considered to be manifestations/expansions of Radha in the Gaudiya context. As to the ontological status of the gopis who are liberated jivas (as to whether they are/become part of the hladini-shakti/group of Radha's expansions) I have not as yet gotten a clear answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pankaja_Dasa Posted October 5, 2004 Report Share Posted October 5, 2004 Mmm I never knew all this. I wonder why different Sampradayas look at it diff. I think its all stepping stones. Because each one is bona-fide. But I do know sometimes a Jiva-tattva who becomes liberated can be Lakmi but this is not the same as Sri Lakmi. Anyway thx. Ps I don't want to make seperate thread for this, but I am taking breaks from Forums for at least 2 weeks. I am doing a 64 rounder a dayer. I won't have any time to come here. Haribol! /images/graemlins/blush.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vanamali Posted October 5, 2004 Report Share Posted October 5, 2004 ""Mmm I never knew all this. I wonder why different Sampradayas look at it diff. I think its all stepping stones. Because each one is bona-fide."" ------------- Well, that's one way of looking at it. But of course each sampradaya probably has its own opinion of which "stepping stone" leads to which! /images/graemlins/tongue.gif Anyway, you are right about the bono-fidacity /images/graemlins/tongue.gif of all of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vanamali Posted October 5, 2004 Report Share Posted October 5, 2004 ""But I do know sometimes a Jiva-tattva who becomes liberated can be Lakmi but this is not the same as Sri Lakmi. Anyway thx. "" ---------- I never heard that a jiva can "become Lakshmi" or even "a Lakshmi." A gopi or a wife of Krishna, yes. Do you have any quotes to support that statement? What do you mean by "becomes Lakshmi?" --------------------------- ""Ps I don't want to make seperate thread for this, but I am taking breaks from Forums for at least 2 weeks. I am doing a 64 rounder a dayer. I won't have any time to come here. Haribol!"" --------------------------- Good for you! Please do mention me to Krishna while you are generating all that punya! /images/graemlins/smile.gif Maybe your reccomendation will be of some use in getting His grace! Jaya Sri Krishna! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 6, 2004 Report Share Posted October 6, 2004 . As to the ontological status of the gopis who are liberated jivas (as to whether they are/become part of the hladini-shakti/group of Radha's expansions) I have not as yet gotten a clear answer. Hladini Sakti is part of Cit Sakti. Cit Sakti or Antaranga Sakti or the Internal energy is split into 3 parts: Sandhini, Samvit, and Hladini. Jivas come from Tatastha Sakti. And will always be Tatastha Sakti. Cit Sakti or Antaranga Sakti is God. From Bhaktivinoda "Antaranga-shakti Antaranga is that which pertains to the proper Entity of the Absolute Person. It is also called Swarupa-shakti for this reason. The literal meaning of the word antaranga is "that which belongs to the inner body." Shakti is rendered as "power." Bhaktivinoda quotes Jiva Goswami in his Jaiva Dharma: "Srila Jiva Gosvami describes the Supreme Person in these words: The Absolute Truth is one. Still, by His inconceivable potency He is manifested in four ways: 1. svarupa (His original form), 2. tad-rupa-vaibhava (His incarnations), 3. jiva (the individual spirit souls), and 4. pradhana (the material energy). These four features are like: 1. the interior of the sun planet, 2. the sun's surface, 3. the sunlight, and 4. the reflection of the sun. This example of course, explains only a small part of the Lord's nature. His svarupa (original form) is His form of eternity, knowledge and bliss. His svarupa-vaibhava (manifestations of His form) are His spiritual abode, name, associates and paraphernalia. The jiva-sakti is the abode of the numberless eternally liberated and conditioned individual souls, who are tiny particles of spirit." The Nitya Siddha Sakhis are all Swarupa-Vaibhava expansions from the Hladini Sakti(Radha). The Jiva will never be them, they are all expansions of Cit Sakti, God. Jiva tells us that there is only Svamsa and vibhinnamsa expansions of God. and that Svamsa expansions are all identical in every way to Krishna. Krsna Sandarbha: "The two kinds of expansions from the Supreme Personality of Godhead are : 1. svamsa (personal expansions) and 2. vibhinnamsa (separate persons). The svamsa expansions are unlimitedly powerful. Their form and personality are the same as the Supreme Personality of Godhead Himself. There is not the slightest difference between the svamsa expansions and the Original Personality of Godhead. The vibhinnamsa expansions are very weak in comparison to Them." From Bhaktivinoda, first from Jaiva Dharma and then from The Bhagavat. "The chit-potency is Krishna's plenary potency; Whatever she produces is eternally accomplished; the jiva is not so eternally accomplished; when he becomes accomplished by practices (sadhana-siddha), he enjoys bliss like those eternally accomplished entities. The four kinds of confidantes of Sri Radha (to be described hereafter) are eternally accomplished; their bodies are about the same, with slight variations, with that of Sri Radhika who is essentially the chit-shakti. The jivas have grown out of the jiva-shakti of Sri Krishna. Chit-shakti is Sri Krishna's full (plenary) shakti, whereas the jiva-shakti is the incomplete shakti. From the plenary potency are produced complete entities, but from the incomplete potency have grown the jivas as atomic chit. Krishna manifests entities of different types in accordance with the kind of the shakti He applies. When established in His essential chit-shakti He reveals His essential Nature as Sri Krishna Himself on the one hand and on the other as Sri Narayana, the Lord of Vaikuntha. When he desired to have His adherent attendance ' nitya parshada' servitors in His Transcendental plane Goloka- Vrindavana Vaikuntha, etc. He through Baladeva created those Eternal Parshada as nitya-mukta jivas at those divine worlds. He reveals the three Forms of Vishnu, viz., Karanodakasayi, Kshirodakasayi and Garbhodakasayi. At Vraja He reveals His own Nature as Krishna with chit in fullness; as Baladeva, He reveals the eternally free associate jivas for the performance of the eight kinds of service of Himself as Sri Krishna. Again at Paravyoma (Vaikuntha) He, as Sankarshana, reveals the eternally free associate jivas for the performance of the eight kinds of service to Sri Narayana. Maha Vishnu, the incarnation of Sankarshana, establishing Himself in the heart of jiva-shakti as Paramatma, creates the jiva-souls of tatastha shakti. These jivas are susceptible to the influence of maya. Till by dint of God's Grace they get shelter under the hladini (bliss-giving) shakti they are liable to be overcome by maya. Innumerable jivas, overcome fastened by maya, are attached to the three gunas (sattva, rajah, tamah) of maya. As such, the conclusion is that it is the jiva-shakti that begets the jivas, and not the chit-shakti." "Sri Krishna is directly served by His plenary inner as His only consort. The residents of Vraja, the plane of this inner service, are extensions of the figure of the plenary Divine Power. They are the Divine participants in the Divine Pastimes, as all those entities display the nature of the full servitorship of the Divinity. Not so the souls of men, all of whom are susceptible to the temptations offered by the deluding face of the power for preventing the access of the nonresidents of Vraja to the Arena of the Divine Pastime. We, the sojourners of this mundane plane, have been thus kept out of the plane of Vraja by the deluding face of the Divine Power. Individual souls who are not part and parcel of the inner plenary power have no automatic access to the plane of Vraja. They are also lacking in spontaneous Love for Sri Krishna. It is possible for them to attain to the Love of Sri Krishna only as accepted subservients of the inhabitants of Vraja. The first appearance of the spontaneous Loving aptitude for Sri Krishna in an individual soul elevates him to the condition of the madhyam-bhagavata (mediocre servant of Sri Krishna) as distinct from the condition of the maha-bhagavata who possesses Love for Sri Krishna in the plenary measure which makes him eligible for participating, as a subservient of the servitors of Vraja, in the Loving Activities of the highest sphere of service. In proportion as the hesitant, reverential, serving disposition of the madhyam-bhagavata is gradually developed, by the practice of pure service, into one of -subserviency to the inhabitants of Vraja in their unconventional performances of the highest Loving-services of Sri Krishna, such hesitation and distance are superseded by growing confidence and proximity to the Object of one's highest Love. Thereby the spiritual vision is perfected, in conformity with the natural capacity of an individual, and he is enabled to realize the full function of his specific spiritual self. Goloka-Vrindavana is realizable in the symbolic Vrindavana that is open to our view in this world by all persons whose Love has been perfected by the mercy of the inhabitants of Transcendental Vraja, and not other-wise. The grossest misunderstanding of the subject of the Vraja Lila of Sri Krishna is inevitable if these considerations are not kept in view. All persons, under the sinister influence of the deluding power of Nescience, are subject to such misunderstanding in one form or another. They are fated to see nothing but a mundane tract of country in the terrestrial (Bhauma) Vrindavana and the practice of the grossest forms of debauchery in the Vraja Pastimes of Sri Krishna." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pankaja_Dasa Posted October 6, 2004 Report Share Posted October 6, 2004 I try again. Its not easy as it sounds. I prayed for you anyway. {for 1 sec}. bye. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vanamali Posted October 6, 2004 Report Share Posted October 6, 2004 >>> I prayed for you anyway. {for 1 sec}. bye. - Thanks! One sec should be more than enough /images/graemlins/smile.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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