Guest guest Posted October 11, 2004 Report Share Posted October 11, 2004 Sridhar Maharaja said that Prabhupada is a cowherd boy. Does this mean he is not a rupanuga vaisnava ? Why do we find in Jaiva Dharma that at the conclusion of the story the two devotees who have been educated are not both manjaris ? One is a cowherd boy. Is Bhaktivinoda also not teaching rupanuga vaisnavism ? Here is something from Tripurari Swami: Volume II, No. 27 Srila Prabhupada: Sakhya or Srngara-rasa? "My statement is supportable by sadhu and sastra, and does not involve belittling Srila Prabhupada in any way. This was the opinion of Om Visnupada Bhakti Raksaka Sridharadeva Goswami Maharaja and it is full of spiritual reasoning." Q&A discussion with Swami B.V. Tripurari. Q. Jadurani dasi recently wrote an article for VNN entitled 'Is Srila Prabhupada in the highest rasa?' in which she attempts to refute your article 'Prabhupada, Subala and Sakhya-Rasa'. Have you read it? A. Yes, I just read her article with interest. While Jadurani devi informs us that we are not to conjecture as to Srila Prabhupada's relationship with Krsna, but rather hear from disciplic succession and sastra, she proceeds to conjecture about this very thing herself (while marshaling some sastra in support of her conjecture and citing the opinion of Pujyapada B.V. Narayana Maharaja). She is not to be faulted for this (as she has faulted me) because the use of reason in conjunction with scripture and the words of saints is not what is rejected in the sutra of Vyasa that she cited (tarko 'pratisthanat). The spirit of this sutra is that reason when not supported by sastra is inconclusive. My statement in the article 'Prabhupada, Subala and Sakhya-Rasa' that it is reasonable to conjecture that Prabhupada may be situated in sakhya-rasa (like Subala) is supportable by sadhu and sastra, and it does not involve belittling him in any way whatsoever, as one might think after reading Srimati Jadurani's article. This was the opinion of Om Visnupada Bhakti Raksaka Sridharadeva Goswami Maharaja. Indeed, I have merely paraphrased his own words, which are full of spiritual reasoning. Scripture says nothing to us that would rule out the possibility that Prabhupada may be situated in sakhya-rasa. Furthermore, a careful reading of my words reveal that I have also said, repeating what I have heard from my siksa-guru, that it is possible that Prabhupada is situated in srngara-rasa, yet owing to his empowerment by Nityananda prabhu and out of deference to him, he veiled his madhurya sentiments, and this empowerment explains why we find expressions of sakhya-bhava in his words and character here and there. Thus I tried to offer a balanced, neutral reply to the inquiry that gave rise to my article. It should be noted that it is possible that one disciple may experience his Gurudeva as a representative of srngara-rasa, while another will experience him as representing Subala in sakhya-rasa. This is discussed in Jaiva Dharma. So, if some of Prabhupada's disciples experience the influence of sakhya-bhava in Srila Prabhupada and are inspired by this, there is no harm. Let their ruci be their guide. It is important in a discussion like this that we do not denigrate something so wonderful as sakhya-rasa. If Prabhupada is so situated, it is not a bad thing. One should be so lucky as to find this kind of guru in our times, a prema-bhakta. If we have taken initiation from a guru situated in sakhya-rasa and we are destined for gopi-bhava, our gurudeva will make all necessary arrangements for us when necessary. Some disciples may be in his group, while others may be recruited by him for the sampradaya in general, and as a dutiful servant he will place them where they need to be to make progress in due course. I am well aware of the opinion of Pujyapada Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja on this issue, and I thank Srimati Jadurani for sharing it in print. It no doubt has merit and is evidence of strong spiritual feeling on his part. This is what we are all after--strong feelings on matters of this nature. However, one of the hallmarks of our tradition is that it accommodates a variety of such feelings. I do not care to debate this issue further, either in private or public. In conclusion, I assure you that if a disciple of Srila Prabhupada is drawn to sakhya-rasa with the sentiment of a priya-narma-sakha, he or she would have no difficulty providing considerable evidence in support of the experience that Srila Prabhupada represents this bhava. The reason for this is that in spiritual life reason and scriptural interpretation ultimately follow feeling (ruci/bhava). Swami B.V. Tripurari Additional notes on Jadurani dasi's article: Srimati Jadurani has said 'Pujyapada Tripurari Maharaja has given a poem about Subala-sakha serving in the forest bowers (kunjas), though he did not give a sastric reference for that poem. A cowherd boy would not sing this song.' Note: This is a verse from Rupa Goswami's Ujjvala-nilamani chapter two, verse 14. In this chapter the extent to which Krsna's friends are involved in madhurya-rasa is explained. Subala's friendly love for Krsna is very much involved in this, to the extent that Rupa Goswami has called it "sakhi-bhava" in his Radha-Krsna Gonnodesa dipika. Jadurani devi: 'We do not know of a single instance where an acarya in our Rupanuga line has a different svarupa and service from that of his guru, in whose footsteps he follows.' Note: Prabhupada says in SB 2.9.30 that 'Lord Brahma is definitely situated in the humor of friendship with the Lord. . . It is clearly exhibited herein that Lord Brahma is related to the Personality of Godhead in the transcendental humor of friendship.' We also find that devotees such as Akincana Krsandasa babaji Maharaja, a disciple of Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura whom I have been told accepted one disciple before leaving the world, was situated in sakhya-rasa, although his Gurudeva was in manjari-bhava. Sripada Narayana Maharaja personally confirmed this to me when I discussed it with him. He told me that Babaji Maharaja personally told this to him. So there are exceptions to the norm, as in all cases. Jadurani devi said that the gopala-mantra and kama-gayatri are not for any other mood than madhurya rasa. However, Gopa Kumara of Sanatana Goswami's seminal Brhat Bhagavatamrta chanted the Gopala mantra (the gayatri that corresponds with this is kama-gayatri) and attained sakhya-rasa. Sripada Narayana Maharaja himself has explained the possibility of chanting the Gopala-mantra and attaining sakhya-rasa by placing emphasis on the name govinda over gopi-jana-vallabha. Jadurani devi has quoted me thus: 'Pujyapada Tripurari Maharaja writes: "Thus it is reasonable to conjecture that Om Visnupada A.C. Bhaktivedanta Srila Prabhupada, who established the worship of Radha Krsna, Gaura Nitai, and Krsna Balarama so widely, was himself influenced by the bhava of a priya-narma-sakha, either directly or indirectly, owing to the influence of his empowerment by Nityananda Prabhu. In the case of the latter possibility, his affinity for madhurya would have been veiled to some extent." It is clear from her explanation/refutation of this statement that Jadurani devi has not understood my comments. I have explained them above in paragraphs two and three. Jadurani devi cites Prabhupada's poem aboard the Jaladuta, wherein he appears to aspire to enter Krsna-lila in sakhya-rasa. She says that this need not be construed to indicate that Prabhupada is in sakhya-rasa, because Radharani may also sometimes desire to love Krsna in the mood of a friend. However, although it is true that Sri Radha may feel like this at times, it would in the very least be odd for one aspiring to enter Krsna lila in manjari-bhava to pray like this. Srimati Jadurani's citation of Prabhupada's own explanation of why he established the Krsna-Balarama temple in Vrndavana is telling to the discerning reader. It is less than supportive of her premise. Overall she has done a fair job of explaining the difference between manjari-bhava and the bhava of a priya-narma-sakha. Other than that, the basic thrust of her article as I read it is, "Because Prabhupada must be in manjari-bhava, he can not be in sakhya-bhava, which is different." She has also given some justification, arguments I am familiar with (although inconclusive in my opinion and that of my siksa-guru), as to why Prabhupada must be situated in manjari-bhava. My humble pranams to her grace Srimati Jadurani devi. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted October 11, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 11, 2004 I haven't had time today to read through this thread so this may have already been brought up. Sorry if that is the case. The Bhagavad-gita is not exclusive to Gaudiya Vaisnavism nor is the Srimad Bhagavatam. So much of what will be learned and preached is basic Vaisnavism, in common with other lines. My assumption is that Gaudiya Vaisnavism distinquishes itself in the way it views pastimes like rasa-lila and in fact maybe other rasa's as well like parental etc. But on this I am not sure. Up to and including awe and reverence I don't see much room for debate. The debate seems to be on what is considered the summum bonum. Is this view correct? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 2004 Report Share Posted October 11, 2004 Its not that simple. Depending on the sampradaya there are more and less similarities. We have the most difference with the Tattvavadis(Madhvacarya), and the most similarities with the Nimbarka Sampradayas, even though we consider ourselves to be in the Madhva Sampradaya!!. There are many differences, some minor some major. If you really want to get to all the answers you should go to each of their websites, the people here are not expert in all the vaisnava sampradayas, just like those in other sampradayas are not expert on us and each other as well. It takes a lot of effort and study to learn in detail all of the differences. A major difference between us and Madhva is they do not accept that every jiva will become liberated, they believe some jivas are eternally bound. All the schools do not put the same emphasis on the Bhagavatam as we do, and even if they do, they interpret it in their own way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 2004 Report Share Posted October 11, 2004 Shivaji, read this book if you have any real interest in what Srila Prabhupada thought was the summum bonum of Ksna Consciousness, and then get back to us, otherwise not! The subject matter is the discussion between Ramananda Raya and Sri Caitanaya Mahaprabhu, otherwise found in the Cc. Madhya lila, chapter 31- the end of Teachings of Lord Caitanya and also known as the Ramananda Samvad. http://www.mandala.org/cgi-bin/MDLstore.pl?user_action=detail&catalogno=BK4104HB In Search of the Ultimate Goal of Life Author: A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Hardbound / 128 pp 5.75 x 8.757quot; / 0.7 lbs Retail: $12.95 Likely to be A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami's very first literary work after taking sannyasa in 1959, In Search of the Ultimate Goal of Life is a treasure most sublime. The style of writing in this manuscript is revealing, making readers feel the urgency of Krishna consciousness, a remarkable ability that later characterized the author's preaching efforts. Taking his readers to the realm of divine love, Bhaktivedanta Swami extensively and freely reveals madhurya-prema as the topmost platform of spontaneous love of Godhead. Published by Mandala. Originally published in 1999. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 2004 Report Share Posted October 11, 2004 GV it is vipralambha. Now in this theme as rule sahajiya interpritation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 2004 Report Share Posted October 11, 2004 ***'Is Srila Prabhupada in the highest rasa?' Yes. Narayana Svami do not know NOTHING about this rasa. Sridhara Svami knows some, little. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 2004 Report Share Posted October 11, 2004 SBST speak do not read Ujjvala nilamani because this devotees do not able understand real mood GV and real mood Gosvamis and read Gosvamis only confusion more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 2004 Report Share Posted October 11, 2004 ***Sri-rupa-manjari-., sei mora sampada, sei mor bhajana-pujana- my everything is Sri Rupa Goswami’s holy feet. We are to discuss so many classifications and positions of rasa: santa, dasya, sakhya, vatsalya, madhura. And in madhura-rasa Radharani’s camp is special. Yes, vipralambha. It is Rafha's mahabhava, it is goal GV. IT IS mood Lord Caitanya. It is mood Gosvamis. Rupa Gosvami stay equal sambhoga - vipralambha. It is for theachings. really mood Gosvamis only vipralambha. Really this science theach Lord Caitanya Himself or His pure devotee Srivasa Thakur. Srivasa is expansion Lord Caitanya as pure devotee, therefore Srila Prabhupada speak - "without ISKCON you do not be able has real realisation. If some think about realistion out side ISKCON - he is krazy." It is obvious me friends. It is obvious, yours "acaryas" do not able make any commentary in this theme. They do not able understand real mood gopis. Materialists able understand only "love". "Kisses" /images/graemlins/smile.gif /images/graemlins/smile.gif /images/graemlins/smile.gif Yes, this science very understable for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 2004 Report Share Posted October 11, 2004 If person has guru kanistha adhikari, then he is be able has spiritual understanding this level. Then SP speak - "best has guru uttama". lectures Bhaktivinoda Thakur it is lectures for beginners ( because SBT begining cermon ). In this case SP speak do not need read, do not need prind jaiva dharma. Of course for beginers it is great. But Prabhupada speak go forever (?). We may go forever only by books SP. Some confession may preach some beginers aspects. Some guru ISKCON may follow beginers aspects, but Prabhupada advise follow to Him only. It is not question theory, it is question practic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 2004 Report Share Posted October 11, 2004 "Some guru ISKCON may follow beginers aspects.." i am very glad that you are criticizing iskcon, my hope is that you wil leave it soon and you form your own sect Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted October 11, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 11, 2004 This is not a thread dedicated to the seemingly endless ISKCON vs. GM squabble. What is the exact point where Gaudiya Vaisnavism becomes distinct from other major lines? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 2004 Report Share Posted October 11, 2004 Theist-I already told you. There are many differences. But in order to understand all of them, that would take a lot of study. First you would have to know Gaudiya siddhanta inside out, then you would have to know the other sampradayas teachings inside out. For instance if you wanted to know all of the differences and all of the similarities between Roman Catholicism and Gaudiya Vaisnavism you would have to know what each school of thought presents. It is not possible to know all the differences and all the points of agreement unless you learn what each school presents in detail. If you want, go HERE. Although it gives just an overview of the major vaisnava schools. In order to fully understand the differences you would have to study each sampradaya. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 2004 Report Share Posted October 11, 2004 The Mood Of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu BY SRILA BHAKTIVEDANTA NARAYAN GOSVAMI MAHARAJA ". . .There is a second question as well: why could Srila Rupa Gosvami not have written only one book, saying, You are all manjaris.? Are all in one stage of bhakti, or in different stages? There are millions of stages of devotees, and one manjari-bhava. This manjari-bhava is certainly our highest aim and object, but Srila Rupa Gosvami has written in his Bhakti-rasamrta sindhu: sravanotkirtanadini vaidha bhakty uditani tu yany angani ca tanyatra vijneyani manisibhih [The angas of bhakti such as sravana, kirtana, sri guru-padasraya, and others, which have already been described in regard to vaidhi-bhakti, are also useful and necessary in raganuga-bhakti. But judicious sadhakas will adopt only those angas which nourish their specific bhava, avoiding those which hamper it.] http://vnn.org/world/WD0409/WD21-8706.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 2004 Report Share Posted October 11, 2004 Several lectures by Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja "Because of Srila Swami Maharaja" ://members.tripod.com/preachingtours/west97/97lecture01.html THE THIRD HISTORY Chapter 8 of TheOrigin of Ratha-yatra http://www.purebhakti.com/articles/bookORYch8.shtml Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 2004 Report Share Posted October 11, 2004 "Because of Srila Swami Maharaja" http://members.tripod.com/preachingtours/west97/97lecture01.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 13, 2004 Report Share Posted October 13, 2004 ***i am very glad that you are criticizing iskcon, Yes, yours sectarian gurus do nat has ANY for critic ISKCON. ***my hope is that you wil leave it soon and you form your own sect No, never. I am not follow your conception false "single guru". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 13, 2004 Report Share Posted October 13, 2004 ***This is not a thread dedicated to the seemingly endless ISKCON vs. GM squabble. No it is spiritual question. If some ISKCOners will be peach nonsence, then the same. It is not queston ISKCON - GM. If GM follow distiortion conception ( and GM it is monopoly sraddha devotees single acarya ), what do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 13, 2004 Report Share Posted October 13, 2004 ***The Mood Of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu BY SRILA BHAKTIVEDANTA NARAYAN GOSVAMI MAHARAJA In this article do not has NOTHING about mood Lord Caitanya. If you means manjari - bhava as sambhoga, then it is wrong. Shiva write many nice things. Yours guru do not understand GV. To Puru Prabhu - SP do comments in sloka "nikunja yuno rati keli" for all rases, not only for madhurya rasa. This sahajiya understanding finised. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 13, 2004 Report Share Posted October 13, 2004 Several lectures by Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja "Because of Srila Swami Maharaja" ://members.tripod.com/preachingtours/west97/97lecture01.html Another aparadha? I am read home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 13, 2004 Report Share Posted October 13, 2004 you have always the best answers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 13, 2004 Report Share Posted October 13, 2004 February 11, 1999 VNN3013 The Purpose Of Lord Caitanya's Descent BY SRILA BHAKTIVEDANTA NARAYAN GOSVAMI MAHARAJA http://www.vnn.org/editorials/ET9902/ET11-3013.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 13, 2004 Report Share Posted October 13, 2004 Kailasa you said: To Puru Prabhu - SP do comments in sloka "nikunja yuno rati keli" for all rases, not only for madhurya rasa. This sahajiya understanding finised. Kindly read the following transcipt,and be careful who you acuse of being a sahajiya. Srila B.V. Naryana Maharja has written more clearly about the dangers of sahajiyaism than you can appreciate. If Vaisnava aparahda is acceptable on this forum then I am not interested in any further participation. No one in iskcon protested, complained or disagreed with any of the points made in this l993 talk. They are based on guru,sadhu and shastra, no more no less!!! Tridandisvami Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja How Deep is the Mountain? [in 1993, in Srila Prabhupada’s quarters at the ISKCON Juhu Beach temple in Bombay, Srila Narayana Maharaja spoke to an audience of 200 devotees. He had been requested at that time to share something of his relationship with Srila Prabhupada, to describe some of the services he rendered to Prabhupada in the past, and some of the services he has been rendering to him since his divine disappearance in 1977.] At the time of his divine departure from this world, Parama-pujyapada Srila Bhaktivedanta Svami Maharaja ordered me, “You should serve me in my taking samadhi.” He knew the meaning and significance of entering samadhi, and what should be done at that time. Samadhi is a Sanskrit word consisting of the two syllables: sama-dhi. Sama means “the same” and dhi means “intelligence”. It means that the pure devotee who is departing from this world is entering the same level, same position and same mood as the personal associates of his worshipful deity – with equal intelligence, equal beauty and equal qualities. He is serving properly according to his own svarupa (constitutional form). Srila Svami Maharaja’s worshipful deity is Srimati Radhika, and he is serving Her under the guidance of Her personal associates, the manjaris, headed by Sri Rupa Manjari. He has preached about Lord Jagannatha-deva, Krsna-Balarama and other manifestations of Sri Sri Radha-Krsna, but from what I have understood from his writings, books, and personal darsanas, I am determined in the fact that his worshipful deity is Srimati Radhika, and he sees Sri Krsna as Radhika’s beloved. His desire was to assist Srimati Radhika in Her desire to serve Sri Krsna in many various ways. He wanted at that time to be one with the mood of Her maidservants, and in that very place where She renders Her service. And he wanted my service at that time. Sri Rupa Manjari serves Srimati Radhika when Radhika wants to meet Krsna. For example, in the night, when it is dark, she dresses Her in black clothes and ties Her ankle-bells so they will not make any sound. She gives so much uddipana (stimuli) to Srimati Radhika’s bhava. For example, at the time of dressing Her she may put on a necklace which has as its centerpiece the syamantaka jewel. At that time she will say, “This jewel is the friend of Sri Krsna’s Kaustaba jewel.” In this way she reminds Srimati Radhika of Her pastimes with Lord Krsna, and Radhika bestows upon her all Her mercy. If one can serve his Gurudeva in this mood, that is, in his Gurudeva’s service to Sri Rupa Manjari or Sri Radhika, this is the best service to Gurudeva. I do not know why he gave me so much mercy that he chose me to give him some uddipana as he entered his samadhi. I performed this service by decorating him with tilaka and writing certain sacred mantras on his chest with sandlewood paste – indicating his services to his worshipful deity, Srimati Radhika. Just before his departure from this world, he requested me to sing Sri Rupa-Manjari-.* (See Endnote 1): sri rupa manari-., sei more sampada, sei mora bhajana-pujana ["The lotus feet of Sri Rupa Manjari are my dearmost treasure. They are the topmost object of my worship and inner devotional practices.] sei more prana-dhana, sei more abharana sei mora jivanera jivana ["Her lotus feet are my most cherished wealth, more dear than my own life. They are the exquisite ornament of my life, and indeed are the very essence of my existence."] This is the best sankirtana of Sri Rupa Manjari, who can lead us to Radhika’s service. While I sang this I saw that his face was sometimes colored with one transcendental mood and sometimes with another. I had requested my brahmacari Sesaya to perform kirtana, and I personally performed this kirtana for him – just as I did for my Gurudeva. There were many similarities between my Guru Maharaja, Srila Bhaktiprajnana Kesava Gosvami Maharaja, and Srila Bhaktivedanta Svami Maharaja. I did what Srila Svami Maharaja ordered me to do for him and I feel so fortunate that he gave me this service; and I did the same for my Gurudeva at the time of his entering samadhi. Just before his departure, Srila Svami Maharaja told me, “You should advise and help my disciples and all devotees connected with me.” I did not think I could help them at that time, for I considered them higher in rank than myself. I thought, “They have so much guru-nistha, faith in the lotus feet of their Gurudeva, and they are far more advanced than I. They know, better than I, the conclusive truths of the Krsna Consciousness philosophy (tattva-siddhanta). How can I help them?” But my siksa-guru gave some inspiration in my heart. It is sometimes thought that Srila Svami Maharaja is only in sakhya-rasa – that is, in his constitutional spiritual form he is a cowherd friend of Krsna. When I hear this I experience pain in my heart, for the complete conception of him is that he is in madhurya-rasa.* [see endnote 2] Sakhya-rasa is included within madhurya-rasa, so sakhya-bhava is also within him, but he is in madhurya-rasa.* [see endnote 3] There are two ways to see our Gurudeva, and an analogy can be given in this connection of the Himalayan Mountains. How high the Himalayas are is one thing – and how deep is another. We can somewhat see its height, but we cannot see what is hidden deep within the ground. We saw that Parama-pujyapada Srila Svami Maharaja collected a large number of disciples throughout the world in practically no time. We saw all varieties of his height. He loved everyone, and everyone knew, “He loves me so much”; and we saw this in our Guru Maharaja also. How deep Sri Guru is, however, we cannot know.Srila Svami Maharaja used to sing Sri Gurvastakam with a profound mood and with tears in his eyes – in samadhi. He did not see who was looking at him and who was not, who was taking part and who was not. He was simply absorbed in singing and playing his karatalas. The first to fourth verses of Sri Gurvastakam contain very high subject matter that we can realize and see, but there are two verses that we cannot: sri-radhika-madhavayor apara- madhurya-lila-guna-rupa-namnam prati-ksanasvadana-lolupasya vande guroh sri caranaravindam (5) ["At every moment Sri Gurudeva is experiencing intense greed in his heart to taste the unlimited sweetness of the holy names, forms, qualities, and pastimes of Sri Sri Radha-Madhava in Vrndavana. I offer my prayers unto the lotus feet of Sri Gurudeva."] nikunja-yuno rati-keli-siddhyai ya yalibhir yuktir apeksaniya tatrati-daksyad ati-vallabhasya vande guroh sri caranaravindam (6) ["Sri Gurudeva is always present with the sakhis, planning the arrangements for the perfection of yugala-kisora’s amorous pastimes (rati-keli) within the kunjas of Vrndavana. Because he is so expert in making these tasteful arrangements for Their pleasure, he is very dear to Sri Radha and Krsna. I offer prayers unto the lotus feet of Sri Gurudeva."] Only one who is equal to his self-realized Guru can understand how deep he is. A kanistha-adhikari, neophyte, and a madhyama-adhikari, middle class devotee, cannot guess how deep are his feelings – what are the fathomless moods of krsna-prema and radha-prema in his heart. Without being an uttama-adhikari, a topmost pure devotee, one cannot understand. Kanistha and madhyama-adhikari devotees can see his height, his aisvarya (opulence) – that he collected disciples and very quickly preached all over the world – but it is more valuable to see his depth. Ultimately he has not collected disciples to experience his height. He did that also, but he ultimately brought us only to give us his deep thoughts. This will take time, of course; it could take many births to realize something of this. When I see him and remember his orders, I become moved – knowing that he is engaged in nikunja-yuno rati-keli-siddhyai. This is the main reason he came – to give this service. He came to obey the orders of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, Nityananda Prabhu and Sri Sri Radha and Krsna. But he had to spend a great deal of time laying the groundwork by preaching vaidhi-bhakti. Srila Prabhupada Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura has said, “I came to give some valuable conceptions in raganuga-bhava – but I could not do so. Most of my life was spent in sweeping and cutting jungles.” Preaching is like this – and it is also so essential. Without preaching vaidhi-bhakti, that main thing cannot be given. Srila Sarasvati Thakura used to say that when the mayavada philosophy (becoming one in all respects with an impersonal God) is present, there can be no preaching of bhakti – so we will have to cut the jungles of atheism, mayavada, sahajiyaism and other non-Vedic philosophies. We will have to spend time defeating their arguments. I think that I have some very little role in this – to obey his orders. If I can give raganuga-bhakti in the hearts of devotees, I will see that I have fulfilled the orders he has given me. This is the best service I can render to his lotus feet. When you are situated in raganuga-bhakti, you will be able to factually see that his relationship with Sri Sri Radha and Krsna is in gopi-bhava. Then you can deeply think of his services to the Divine Couple in nikunja yuno rati keli siddhyai. He used to sing daily: jaya radha-madhava jaya kunja-bihari gopi-jana-vallabha jaya giri-vara-dhari yasoda-nandana, braja-jana-ranjana yamuna-tira-vanacari ["All glories to Sri Radha-Madhava! All glories to Kunja-Bihari, who is the gopis dearmost beloved. He lifted Govardhana Hill and is the darling son of Yasoda Maiya. He wanders in the forests along the banks of the Yamuna, where He enjoys with the many different gopis in their own groves."] He has so much transcendental greed to serve Kunja-bihari. A sakha does not have the sentiments and thoughts of these exalted conceptions. The name Gopi-jana-vallabha in this song is also in our gopala-mantra. Srila Svami Maharaja desired to give the service performed by the gopis to Gopi-jana-vallabha, but he saw that there were only a few in this world who were qualified for this – the number could be counted on ones fingers. In order to gradually bring his audiences to a level wherein they could understand, he preached about Lord Jaganatha-deva and established deities of Sri Sita-Rama and Sri Krsna-Balarama. The gopis have spoken about Rama-Krsna (Balarama is sometimes called Rama) in Srimad-bhagavatam, but they were not actually referring to Rama meaning Balarama. They were indicating Ramanya-Krsna; that is, Krsna, the enjoyer of Sri Radha. Their Rama is Krsna Himself. Qualified devotees –those who have received the mercy of their Gurudeva – will actually realize this; and others who desire to do so will realize it after some time. If I can render this service to his lotus feet – to give an atom of the feelings of these exalted conceptions to his disciples and followers, I will render him the best service. [*Endnote 1. He very much liked, “Hari Haraye Namah Krsna Yadava Namah”, “Jaya Radhe, Jaya Krsna, Jaya Vrndavana.” and “Sri Rupa Manjari-.”, and used to request me to sing these kirtanas. (UK Visit to Srila Prabhupada’s Room at Bhaktivedanta Manor 1996 May 17) 2. To explain the topmost quality of conjugal love, Srila Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami gives the example of the material elements—sky, air, fire, water and earth. In the sky (space) there is the quality of sound. Similarly, in air there are the qualities of sound and touch. In fire, there are three qualities—sound, touch and form. In water there are four qualities—sound, touch, form and taste. Finally, in earth there are all five qualities—sound, touch, form, taste and also smell. Now, one can see that the quality of the sky is in all—namely in air, fire, water and earth. In earth we can find all the qualities of material nature. The same can be applied to the rasa known as madhurya-rasa, or conjugal love. In conjugal love there are the qualities of neutrality, servitorship, fraternity and parental affection, as well as those of conjugal love itself. The conclusion is that through conjugal love the Lord is completely satisfied. 3. Conjugal love (madhurya-rasa) is also known as srngara-rasa. It is the conclusion of Srimad-Bhagavatam that in the complete combination of loving service to the Lord—namely in conjugal love—the Supreme Lord fully agrees to be under the control of the devotee. (Sri Caitanya-caritamrta Madhya-lila, 8.88)] Editorial advisors: Sripad Madhava Maharaja and Sripad Brajanatha dasa Transcriber and typist: Vasanti dasi Editor: Syamarani dasi Here are 93 references to rupanuga/raganuga for anyone insterested. http://www.purebhakti.com/cgi-bin/ksearch/ksearch.cgi?terms=rupanuga+raganuga&sort=Matches&display=5 It is likely that such information will only spark criticism and conention from Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 13, 2004 Report Share Posted October 13, 2004 Kailasa, I suggest you examine this lecture, before you come to false conclusions about who is part of our guru parampara and who is a sahajiya!! BOYCOTT THE SAHAJIYA-BABAJIS (Holland, June 10, 2001, am) http://www.purebhakti.com/lectures/lecture20010610am_OLD.shtml Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 14, 2004 Report Share Posted October 14, 2004 Maybe it's me, but why would that speech be made at all ? Previous to that, Sridhar Maharaja had told people that it appeared to him that Prabhupada was not in manjari bhava, that it appeared Prabhupada was a cowherd boy, and he made a reasonable argument for that. It really wasn't a political football, just an answer to a question put to him. So my question is why did Narayana Maharaja feel he needed to contradict Sridhar Maharaja ? Someone who Prabhupada said of "in years and experience he is senior to me" ? This seems like a speech made to discredit Sridhar Maharaja to his devoted following and mission. Am I wrong ? What possible reason would Narayana Maharaja have that would make him see the imperative necessity of explicitly speaking out against a senior acarya ? Knowing full well the effect such a statement would have on the followers of Sridhar Maharaja. Was their some necessity of claiming that Prabhupada is a manjari ? Was that vital for everyone to believe ? Was it necessary to directly contradict a senior vaisnava ? What, in you opinion, Puru, would be the reason for such a seemingly inappropriate speech ? You speak of tolerating vaisnava aparadha, but here you are posting comments that you are clearly using as some kind of propaganda tool to diminish faith in Sridhar Maharaja, what would impell you to do this ? There is a gradation in vaisnava circles based on seniority, attempting to discredit Sridhar Maharaja, a senior vaisnava, whom Prabhupada called his siksa guru, for any purpose is in fact aparadha. Those living in glass houses should not throw rocks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 14, 2004 Report Share Posted October 14, 2004 Purport Srila Prabhupada-Lila-Smarana-Mangala-Stotram by Dasa Jagat Guru Swami B.G. Narasingha Maharaja http://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/html/events_fs.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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