kailasa Posted October 19, 2004 Report Share Posted October 19, 2004 ***To show the glory of a true rasika-acarya (teacher expert at relishing the mellows of devotional service); To show the glory of hearing rasa-lila (the Supreme Lord’s divine dance of love with the damsels of Vraja); To present the siddhanta (philosophical conclusions) of our Brahma-Madhva-Gaudiya Vaisnava Sampradaya (disciplic succession); To show that without sadhu-sanga (the association of saints), apasiddhantic confusion (heretical philosophical conclusions) will spread around the world in the name of Gaudiya Vaisnavism. It is part GV, it is not all. ***To show the glory of a true rasika-acarya (teacher expert at relishing the mellows of devotional service); It is empty theory. Professional reciters rasa lila for fool publik. It is obvious. They take neopfite then speak - "we rasika, we rupanuga", then people discuss this theory and speculation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kailasa Posted October 19, 2004 Report Share Posted October 19, 2004 Srila Prabhupada theach real raganugam His book it is path in real raganuga it is not weak gyana. With out Prabhupada no body do not understand goal GV. It is fact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kailasa Posted October 19, 2004 Report Share Posted October 19, 2004 ***Then dear friends make adminictrative metiods. Olny sraddha. "You needs big rasika guru... only guru citation 1 - only guru citation 2 - only guru Srila Prabhupada speak - "blind following do not help". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 19, 2004 Report Share Posted October 19, 2004 Kailasa, once again your post has no scriptural reference. Whoever told you to think that Srila Narayana Maharaja has any material motives or mundane ambitions with regard to Iskcon management is living in a dream of envious concoction. His only aspiration is to serve his own spiritual master and help devotees understand what is suddha bhakti. " . . . There is a specific difference between the pure devotee and the confidential devotee. Different potencies of the Lord are engaged in serving the Supreme Lord in different transcendental relationships. They are situated in conjugal love, in parental affection, in friendship and in servitude. By impartially judging, one can find that the internal potencies of the Supreme Lord who are engaged in conjugal love with the Lord are the best of all devotees. Thus both internal devotees and confidential devotees are attracted by the conjugal love of the Supreme Absolute Truth. These are the most confidential devotees of Lord Caitanya. Other pure devotees, who are more or less attached to Sri Nityananda Prabhu and Advaita Prabhu, are attracted by other transcendental relationships, such as parental affection, friendship and servitorship. When such devotees are attached to the activities of Lord Caitanya, they at once become confidential devotees in conjugal love with the Supreme Lord. There is a very nice song sung by Sri Narottama dasa Thakura, a great devotee and acarya in the disciplic succession from Lord Caitanya. Narottama dasa sings: "When will there be transcendental vibrations all over my body simply by my hearing the name of Gauranga? When will tears incessantly flow from my eyes simply by my uttering the names of the Lord? When will Lord Nityananda have mercy upon me, and when will all my desires for material enjoyment become insignificant? When shall I be purified by giving up all contaminations of material enjoyment? And when shall I be able to see the transcendental abode, Vrndavana? When shall I be eager to accept the six Gosvamis as my prime guidance? And when will I be able to understand the conjugal love of Krsna?" No one should be eager to understand the conjugal love of Krsna without undergoing disciplinary training under the six Gosvamis of Vrndavana. HDGACBSP TLC Ch.17 Lord Caitanya, The Original Personality of Godhead Pgs.160-161 TEXT 224 nibhrta-marun-mano 'ksa-drdha-yoga-yujo hrdi yan munaya upasate tad arayo 'pi yayuh smaranat striya uragendra-bhoga-bhuja-danda-visakta-dhiyo vayam api te samah sama-drso 'nghri-saroja-sudhah SYNONYMS nibhrta--controlled; marut--the life air; manah--the mind; aksa--senses; drdha--strong; yoga--in the mystic yoga process; yujah--who are engaged; hrdi--within the heart; yat--who; munayah--the great sages; upasate--worship; tat--that; arayah--the enemies; api--also; yayuh--obtain; smaranat--from remembering; striyah--the gopis; uraga-indra--of serpents; bhoga--like the bodies; bhuja--the arms; danda--like rods; visakta--fastened to; dhiyah--whose minds; vayam api--we also; te--Your; samah--equal to them; sama-drsah--having the same ecstatic emotions; anghri-saroja--of the lotus feet; sudhah--the nectar. TRANSLATION " 'Great sages conquer the mind and senses by practicing the mystic yoga system and controlling their breath. Thus engaging in mystic yoga, they see the Supersoul within their hearts and ultimately enter into impersonal Brahman. But even the enemies of the Supreme Personality of Godhead attain that position simply by thinking of the Supreme Lord. However, the damsels of Vraja, the gopis, being attracted by the beauty of Krsna, simply wanted to embrace Him and His arms, which are like serpents. Thus the gopis ultimately tasted the nectar of the lotus feet of the Lord. Similarly, we Upanisads can also taste the nectar of His lotus feet by following in the footsteps of the gopis.' " PURPORT This is a quotation from Srimad-Bhagavatam (10.87.23) spoken by the srutis, the personified Vedas. TEXT 225 TEXT 'sama-drsah'-sabde kahe 'sei bhave anugati' 'samah'-sabde kahe srutira gopi-deha-prapti SYNONYMS sama-drsah sabde--by the word sama-drsah; kahe--it says; sei--that; bhave--in the emotion; anugati--following; samah sabde--by this word samah; kahe--it says; srutira--of the persons known as the srutis; gopi-deha--the bodies of gopis; prapti--attainment. TRANSLATION "The word 'sama-drsah,' mentioned in the fourth line of the previous verse, means 'following the mood of the gopis.' The word 'samah' means 'the srutis' attaining a body like those of the gopis.' TEXT 226 TEXT 'anghri-padma-sudha'ya kahe 'krsna-sangananda' vidhi-marge na paiye vraje krsna-candra SYNONYMS anghri-padma-sudhaya--by the nectar derived from the lotus feet of Krsna; kahe--it says; krsna-sanga-ananda--transcendental bliss by the association of Krsna; vidhi-marge--on the path of regulative principles; na paiye--one does not get; vraje--in Goloka Vrndavana; krsna-candra--Lord Krsna. TRANSLATION "The word 'anghri-padma-sudha' means 'associating intimately with Krsna.' One can attain such perfection only by spontaneous love of God. One cannot obtain Krsna in Goloka Vrndavana simply by serving the Lord according to regulative principles. TEXT 227 TEXT nayam sukhapo bhagavan dehinam gopika-sutah jnaninam catma-bhutanam yatha bhakti-matam iha SYNONYMS na--not; ayam--this Lord Sri Krsna; sukha-apah--easily available; bhagavan--the Supreme Personality of Godhead; dehinam--for materialistic persons who have accepted the body as the self; gopika-sutah--the son of mother Yasoda; jnaninam--for persons addicted to mental speculation; ca--and; atma-bhutanam--for persons performing severe austerities and penances; yatha--as; bhakti-matam--for persons engaged in spontaneous devotional service; iha--in this world. TRANSLATION " 'The Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krsna, the son of mother Yasoda, is accessible to those devotees engaged in spontaneous loving service, but He is not as easily accessible to mental speculators, to those striving for self-realization by severe austerities and penances, or to those who consider the body the same as the self.' PURPORT This verse from Srimad-Bhagavatam (10.9.21) is spoken by Srila Sukadeva Gosvami. It appears within a passage in which he glorifies mother Yasoda and other devotees of Krsna by describing how they can subjugate Him with their love. TEXT 228 TEXT ataeva gopi-bhava kari angikara ratri-dina cinte radha-krsnera vihara SYNONYMS ataeva--therefore; gopi-bhava--the loving mood of the gopis; kari--making; angikara--acceptance; ratri-dina--day and night; cinte--one thinks; radha-krsnera--of Radha and Krsna; vihara--the pastimes. TRANSLATION "Therefore one should accept the mood of the gopis in their service. In such a transcendental mood, one should always think of the pastimes of Sri Radha and Krsna. TEXT 229 TEXT siddha-dehe cinti' kare tahanni sevana sakhi-bhave paya radha-krsnera carana SYNONYMS siddha-dehe--in the perfected stage; cinti'--by remembering; kare--does; tahanni--in the spiritual world; sevana--service; sakhi-bhave--in mood of the gopis; paya--gets; radha-krsnera--of Radha and Krsna; carana--the lotus feet. TRANSLATION "After thinking of Radha and Krsna and Their pastimes for a long time and after getting completely free from material contamination, one is transferred to the spiritual world. There the devotee attains an opportunity to serve Radha and Krsna as one of the gopis. PURPORT Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura comments that the word siddha-deha, "perfected spiritual body," refers to a body beyond the material gross body composed of five elements and the subtle astral body composed of mind, intelligence and false ego. In other words, one attains a completely spiritual body fit to render service to the transcendental couple Radha and Krsna: sarvopadhi-vinirmuktam tat-paratvena nirmalam. When one is situated in his spiritual body, which is beyond this gross and subtle material body, he is fit to serve Radha and Krsna. That body is called siddha-deha. The living entity attains a particular type of gross body in accordance with his past activities and mental condition. In this life the mental condition changes in different ways, and the same living entity gets another body in the next life according to his desires. The mind, intelligence and false ego are always engaged in an attempt to dominate material nature. According to that subtle astral body, one attains a gross body to enjoy the objects of one's desires. According to the activities of the present body, one prepares another subtle body. And according to the subtle body, one attains another gross body. This is the process of material existence. However, when one is spiritually situated and does not desire a gross or subtle body, he attains his original spiritual body. As confirmed by the Bhagavad-gita (4.9): tyaktva deham punar janma naiti mam eti so 'rjuna. One is elevated to the spiritual world by the spiritual body and is situated either in Goloka Vrndavana or in another Vaikuntha planet. In the spiritual body there are no longer material desires, and one is fully satisfied by rendering service to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Radha and Krsna. This is the platform of bhakti (hrsikena hrsikesa-sevanam bhaktir ucyate). When the spiritual body, mind and senses are completely purified, one can render service to the Supreme Personality of Godhead and His consort. In Vaikuntha the consort is Laksmi, and in Goloka Vrndavana the consort is Srimati Radharani. In the spiritual body, free from material contamination, one can serve Radha-Krsna and Laksmi-Narayana. When one is thus spiritually situated, he no longer thinks of his own personal sense gratification. This spiritual body is called siddha-deha, the body by which one can render transcendental service unto Radha and Krsna. The process is that of engaging the transcendental senses in loving devotional service. This verse specifically mentions, sakhi-bhave paya radha-krsnera carana: only transcendentally elevated persons in the mood of the gopis can engage in the service of the lotus feet of Radha and Krsna. TEXT 230 TEXT gopi-anugatya vina aisvarya-jnane bhajileha nahi paya vrajendra-nandane SYNONYMS gopi-anugatya--subservience to the gopis; vina--without; aisvarya-jnane--in the knowledge of opulence; bhajileha--if serving the Supreme Lord; nahi--not; paya--gets; vrajendra-nandane--the son of Maharaja Nanda, Krsna. TRANSLATION "Unless one follows in the footsteps of the gopis, he cannot attain the service of the lotus feet of Krsna, the son of Nanda Maharaja. If one is overcome by knowledge of the Lord's opulence, he cannot attain the Lord's lotus feet, even though he is engaged in devotional service. PURPORT One can worship Laksmi-Narayana by the process of vidhi-marga, worshiping the Lord with regulative principles according to the instructions of the sastra and the spiritual master. But the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Radha-Krsna, cannot be directly worshiped by this process. The dealings between Radha and Krsna and the gopis are devoid of the opulences of Laksmi-Narayana. The process of vidhi-marga, following the regulative principles, is utilized in the worship of Laksmi-Narayana, whereas the process of spontaneous service--following in the footsteps of the gopis, who are the denizens of Vrndavana--is transcendentally more advanced and is the process whereby Radha and Krsna are worshiped. One cannot attain this elevated position while worshiping the Lord in His opulence. Those attracted by the conjugal love between Radha and Krsna must follow in the footsteps of the gopis. Only then is it possible to enter into the Lord's service in Goloka Vrndavana and directly associate with Radha and Krsna. HDGACBSP Cc. Madhya-Lila CH.8 Text 224-230 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 2004 Report Share Posted October 20, 2004 Those with an agenda will miss the purport of what Prabhupada said, and what Ramananda said as well. The words used were "following in the footsteps of the gopis", the specific example used was that the Goddess of fortune worshipped in opulence, whereas the gopis did not. "The unspoken example in this connection is the goddess of fortune, who worshiped Lord Krsna in order to attain His pastimes in Vrndavana. But due to her opulent life-style, she could not attain the service of Krsna in Vrndavana." "The process of vidhi-marga, following the regulative principles, is utilized in the worship of Laksmi-Narayana, whereas the process of spontaneous service--following in the footsteps of the gopis, who are the denizens of Vrndavana--is transcendentally more advanced and is the process whereby Radha and Krsna are worshiped. One cannot attain this elevated position while worshiping the Lord in His opulence. Those attracted by the conjugal love between Radha and Krsna must follow in the footsteps of the gopis. Only then is it possible to enter into the Lord's service in Goloka Vrndavana and directly associate with Radha and Krsna." Specifically the example of the gopis is being used not because they are in madhurya rasa, but because they are in spontaneous non opulent mood. The idea is that the gopis worship the lord without the majesty of Narayana, without rules and regulative procedures, so that form of worship is considered the highest. The idea is that spontaneous devotion, with the example of the gopis, who worship in sponataneous devotion, is the path tht leads to Vraja. The path of raganuga is being taught here, not that only devotees in manjari bhava can become residents of Vraja. That would be apasiddhanta, since we know that there are also cowherd boys, parents etc. If we took the meaning of what was said to mean that only people who are in manjari bhava can go to Vraja, then we make a mistake in what was being said. Obviously the teachings are that all the residents of Vraja are to be an example, they all worship in spontaneous non opulent style. The false purport to these verses would leave out the true meaning of "following in the footsteps of the gopis is the only way to enter Vraja". Otherwise Vraja would only be gopis. So the true purport is that spontaneous devotion is the entrance to the service of Radha Krishna, the Gopis are the ultimate example, but anyone in any rasa who follows their example, or footsteps is eligible. Anything else is false, and apasiddhanta, purveyed by non-confidential devotees, speculating about things they have no experience of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 2004 Report Share Posted October 20, 2004 "Everywhere in the world people worship Me according to scriptural injunctions. But simply by following such regulative principles one cannot attain the loving sentiments of the devotees in Vrajabhumi. Knowing my opulences, the whole world looks upon Me with awe and veneration. But devotion made feeble by such reverence does not attract Me. By performing such regulated devotional service in awe and veneration, one may go to Vaikuntha and attain the four kinds of liberation" [C.C. A.l. 3.15-17]" "The original inhabitants of Vrindavana are attached to Krsna spontaneously in devotional service. Nothing can compare to such spontaneous devotional service, which is called ragatmika bhakti. When a devotee follows in the footsteps of the devotees of Vrindavana, his devotional service is called raganuga bhakti. [C.C. M.l. 22.149]" "Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura says that a devotee is attracted by the service of the inhabitants of Vrindavana -- namely the cowherd men, Maharaja Nanda, mother Yasoda, Radharani, the gopis, and the cows and calves. An advanced devotee is attracted by the service rendered by an eternal servitor of the Lord. This attraction is called spontaneous attraction. [C.C. M.l. 22.153, purport]" "Persons desiring to follow in the footsteps of such eternal devotees of the Lord as the Vrsnis and the Vrindavana denizens are called raganuga devotees, which means that they are trying to attain to the perfection of those devotees. These raganuga devotees dont follow the regulative principles of devotional service very strictly, but by spontaneous nature they become attracted to some of the eternal devotees such as Nanda or Yasoda, and they try to follow in their footsteps spontaneously. There is a gradual development of the ambition to become like a particular devotee, and this activity is called raganuga. (NOD, Ch. 16, p.125)" "In this way a neophyte can gradually develop attachment for Krsnas name, fame, form, qualities and so forth. When one has developed such attachment, he can spontaneously serve the lotus feet of Krsna even without following the regulative principles. This stage is called raga-bhakti, or devotional service in spontaneous love. At that stage the devotee can follow in the footsteps of one of the eternal associates of Krsna in Vrindavana. This is called raganuga-bhakti. [NOI, Text Eight, purport]" "One has to practise living in Vrindavana by hearing about the talks of the gopis with Krsna. However, one should not consider oneself a gopi, for this is offensive. [C.C. M. 8.205, purport]" ""If one worships the Lord on the path of spontaneous love and goes to Vrndavana, he receives the shelter of Vrajendra-nandana, the son of Nanda Maharaja. PURPORT In all, there are sixty-four items listed for the rendering of service unto Krsna, and these are the regulative principles enjoined in the sastras and given by the spiritual master. One has to serve Krsna according to these regulative principles, but if one develops spontaneous love for Krsna as exhibited in the activities of those who live in Vrajabhumi, one attains the platform of raganuga-bhakti. One who has developed this spontaneous love is eligible for elevation to the platform enjoyed by the inhabitants of Vrajabhumi. In Vrajabhumi, there are no regulative principles set forth for Krsna's service. Rather, everything is carried out in spontaneous, natural love for Krsna. There is no question of following the principles of the Vedic system. Such principles are followed within this material world, and as long as one is on the material platform, he has to execute them. However, spontaneous love of Krsna is transcendental. It may seem that the regulative principles are being violated, but the devotee is on the transcendental platform. Such service is called gunatita, or nirguna, for it is not contaminated by the three modes of material nature." [CC M.8.221] "In his liberated stage the devotee is attracted by one of the five humors in the transcendental loving service of the Lord. As he continues to serve the Lord in that transcendental mood, he attains a spiritual body to serve Krsna in Goloka Vrndavana. Those saintly persons who represent the Upanisads are vivid examples of this. By worshiping the Lord on the path of spontaneous love, they attained the lotus feet of Vrajendra-nandana, the son of Nanda Maharaja. PURPORT In the Goloka Vrndavana planet, Krsna's servants are headed by Raktaka and Patraka. Krsna's friends are headed by Sridama, Subala and others. There are also elderly gopis and the cowherd men, headed by Nanda Maharaja, mother Yasoda and others. All of these personalities are eternally engaged in the loving service of the Lord in accordance with their specific attachments for Krsna. One who wants to return home to serve the Lord directly may be attracted to Krsna as a servant, friend, father or mother. If a person continuously serves Krsna during this life in a particular ecstasy, upon giving up the material body he attains a spiritual body suitable for serving Krsna in terms of his particular attachment. One may serve as a servant, friend, father or mother. In the same way, one who wants to serve Krsna in conjugal love can attain a body under the guidance of the gopis. In this connection, the most vivid example is provided by those saintly personalities known as the srutis, who represent the Upanisads. The srutis understood that without serving Krsna and following in the footsteps of the gopis there would be no possibility of their entering the kingdom of God and serving Krsna in the mood of conjugal love. Therefore they engaged in spontaneous loving service unto Krsna and followed in the footsteps of the gopis." [CC M.8.222-3] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 2004 Report Share Posted October 20, 2004 TEXT 326 sutra kari' disa yadi karaha upadesa apane karaha yadi hrdaye pravesa SYNONYMS sutra kari'--making a synopsis; disa--direction; yadi--if; karaha upadesa--You kindly instruct; apane--personally; karaha--You do; yadi--if; hrdaye pravesa--entering into me or manifesting in my heart. TRANSLATION Sanatana Gosvami then requested the Lord, "Please personally tell me how I can write this difficult book about Vaisnava behavior. Please manifest Yourself in my heart. PURPORT The writing of Vaisnava literatures is not a function for ordinary men. Vaisnava literatures are not mental concoctions. They are all authorized literature meant to guide those who are going to be Vaisnavas. Under these circumstances, an ordinary man cannot give his own opinion. His opinion must always correspond with the conclusion of the Vedas. Unless one is fully qualified in Vaisnava behavior and authorized by superior authority (the Supreme Personality of Godhead), one cannot write Vaisnava literatures or purports and commentaries on Srimad-Bhagavatam and Bhagavad TEXT 345 ei sanksepe sutra kahilun dig-darasana yabe tumi likhiba, krsna karabe sphurana SYNONYMS ei--thus; sanksepe--in brief; sutra--codes; kahilun--I have described; dik-darasana--just a little direction; yabe--whenever; tumi--you; likhiba--will attempt to write; krsna--Lord Krsna; karabe--will do; sphurana--manifesting. TRANSLATION "I have thus given a synopsis of the Vaisnava regulative principles. I have given this in brief just to give you a little direction. When you write on this subject, Krsna will help you by spiritually awakening you." PURPORT One cannot write on spiritual matters without being blessed by Krsna and the disciplic succession of gurus. The blessings of the authorities are one's power of attorney. One should not try to write anything about Vaisnava behavior and activities without being authorized by superior authorities. This is confirmed in Bhagavad-gita: evam parampara-praptam imam rajarsayo viduh. C.C.Madhya-lila Ch.24 text 326&345 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 2004 Report Share Posted October 20, 2004 SRIMAD BHAGAVAD-GITA The Hidden Treasure of the Sweet Absolute by Om Visnupada Paramahamsa Parivrajakacharya-varya Sarva-sastra-siddhanta-vit Astottara-sata-sri Srimad Bhakti Raksaka Sridhara Goswami Maharaja Rendered into English by Tridandi Bhiksu Sripad Sagar Maharaj Assisted by Sripad Nimai Sundar Brahmachari and Sripad Jagadananda Adhikari Chapter 10 8) I am Krsna, the Sweet Absolute, I am the root cause of the all comprehensive aspect of the Absolute, the all-permeating aspect of the Absolute, and also the personal aspect of the Absolute the Master of all potencies, who commands the respect of everyone Lord Narayana of Vaikuntha. The universe of mundane and divine flow, every attempt and movement, the Vedas and allied scriptures which guide everyone´s worship all are initiated by Me alone. Realizing this hidden treasure, the virtuous souls who are blessed with fine theistic intellect surpass the standards of duty and nonduty, and embrace the paramount path of love divine, raga-marga, and adore Me forever. Commentary: Verses 8-11 are the four principal verses of the Srimad Bhagavad-gita. The ontological substance of the book is contained within these four essential verses, beginning ahaµ sarvasya prabhavo "Everything emanates from Me."In the Srimad Bhagavatam (1.2.11), the three main conceptions of theAbsolute are given as Brahman, Paramatma, and Bhagavan. Brahman is the all-comprehensive aspect of the Absolute, Paramatma is the allpermeating aspect of the Absolute, and Bhagavan is the personalconception of the Absolute. The general definition of the word Bhagavan is given, aisvaryasya samagrasya, viryasya yasasah sriyah jnana-vairagyayos caiva, sannam bhaga itingana (Visnu Purana 6.5.47) Bhagavan, the Supreme Lord, is thus defined as 'He who is inseparably replete with the six inconceivable qualities of wealth, power fame, beauty, knowledge, and renunciation.' The characteristic of Bhagavan, as Lord Narayana, is that all kinds of potencies are personally controlled by Him. However, Srila Jiva Goswami has given a special and particularly fine interpretation: Bhagavan means bhajaniya guna-visis_a. His nature is such that whoever comes into contact with Him cannot resist serving Him. No one can resist feeling moved to worship and adore His charming personality. As Lord Krsna, He attracts the love of everyone. Therefore by the word sarvasya, Lord Krsna indicates, "I am svayam Bhagavan, the Supreme Lord Himself. I am the origin of not only Brahman, the all-comprehensive aspect, and Paramatma, the all permeating aspect. I am also the origin of the Master of all potencies, who commands the respect of everyone Lord Narayana of Vaikuntha." Matta sarva pravartate "Every attempt and movement begins from Me, including the methods by which everyone worships and serves Me in devotion." nayam atma pravacanena labhyo na medhaya na bahuna srutena yam evaisa vrnute tena labhyas tasyaisa atma vivrnute tanum svam (Kathopanisad 1.2.23) "The Lord cannot be known by copious logic, intelligence, or deep study of the scriptures. But He reveals Himself personally to the soul who, having become eager to engage in His devotional service, prays to Him for His mercy."In this way, mattaª sarvaµ pravartate "I am the first to reveal to the public, 'Worship Me in this way.' I appear as guru, and through him, I worship Myself." In the Srimad Bhagavatam, the guru is described by the Lord as His own direct manifestation. acaryam mam vijaniyan, navamanyeta karhicit na martya buddhyasuyeta, sarva deva-mayo guruh (Bhag. 11.17.27) (Lord Krsna said to His devotee, Uddhava:) "You should know the bona fide spiritual master as My very Self. Never dishonor him. The nature of gurudeva is everything that is godly, and he should never be envied by ascribing one´s mundane conception of place, time, and circumstances upon him." Furthermore, the Lord's finest potency is Srimati Radharani. Of course, there are many other eternal associates, but the highest order of devotional service is represented in Srimati Radharani. The Lord is therefore saying, "My worship is shown by Me. I, as My finest potency, worship Myself. Iti matva bhajante mam understanding this conception, the devotee will come to worship Me, always under the direction of My best worshiper My finest potency and representation Radharani, or gurudeva. Crossing Her, the highest and most desirable form of service to Me is not possible." Radha-dasyam, the servitorship of Srimati Radharani, is indicated here. Only those who are blessed with divine intelligence will be able to appreciate this, and not persons with self-acquired intelligence from this mayika quarter, the world of misconception. In this verse the word budhah refers to sumedhasah as described in the Srimad Bhagavatam (11.5.32): persons of fine theistic intelligence arising from direct connection with the transcendental plane. The inner guidance and direction they receive is the outcome of sukrti, divine merit acquired by the association of pure devotees. Bhava-samanvitahmeans raga-samanvitah - anuraga - love and attraction which is affinity not by strictly following scriptural rules, or drawn from any plane of loss and gain, but from bhava, inner divine inspiration. Devotion of this high type is completely noncalculative (jnana-sunya bhakti), as described by Srila Rupa Goswami in Sri Bhakti-rasamrtasindhu: anyabhilasita sunyam, jnana-karmady anavrtam anukulyena krsnanusilanam bhaktir uttama (B.r.s. 1.1.9) "The highest devotion pleases the transcendental desires of Lord Krsna, and is free from the external coverings of any pursuits based on action or knowledge." The most rare and elevated stage of devotion is the line of spontaneous devotion, known as raga-marga. In that line, guided by the qualified guru, an elevated pure devotee may gradually come to render service to a leader of one of the groups of Krsna's personal associates, who serve the Lord in His pastimes in friendship (sakhyarasa), parenthood (vatsalya-rasa), or consorthood (madhura-rasa). In Vrndavana, the Lord is being served in sponaneous devotion by His friends such as Subala Sakha, and by His parents, Nanda Maharaja and mother Yasoda. Gopis such as Lalita and Visakha serve Him in conjugal love. But amongst all His associates, and amongst all the gopis, the highest order of divine loving service is rendered to the Lord by Srimati Radharani. Therefore the acme of raga-marga is to render service unto Radharani (Radha-dasyam). This is the highest goal of the Rupanuga Gaudiya Sampradaya, the followers of pure devotion as taught by Srila Rupa Goswami Prabhupada, in the line of Lord Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 2004 Report Share Posted October 20, 2004 Did Srila Sirdhar Maharaja have an agenda? Did Srila Rupa Gosvami have an agenda? The word does not apply! TEXT 53 bhattera hrdaye drdha abhimana jani' bhangi kari' mahaprabhu kahe eta vani SYNONYMS bhattera hrdaye--in the heart of Vallabha Bhatta; drdha--fixed; abhimana--pride; jani'--understanding; bhangi kari'--making a hint; mahaprabhu--Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu; kahe--spoke; eta vani--these words. TRANSLATION Knowing that Vallabha Bhatta's heart was full of pride, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu spoke these words, hinting at how one can learn about devotional service. PURPORT Vallabha Bhatta was greatly proud of his knowledge in devotional service, and therefore he wanted to speak about Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu without understanding the Lord's position. The Lord therefore hinted in many ways that if Vallabha Bhatta wanted to know what devotional service actually is, he would have to learn from all the devotees He mentioned, beginning with Advaita Acarya, Lord Nityananda, Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya and Ramananda Raya. As Svarupa Damodara has said, if one wants to learn the meaning of Srimad-Bhagavatam, one must take lessons from a realized soul. One should not proudly think that one can understand the transcendental loving service of the Lord simply by reading books. One must become a servant of a Vaisnava. As Narottama dasa Thakura has confirmed, chadiya vaisnava-seva nistara payeche keba: one cannot be in a transcendental position unless one very faithfully serves a pure Vaisnava. One must accept a Vaisnava guru (adau gurv-asrayam), and then by questions and answers one should gradually learn what pure devotional service to Krsna is. That is called the parampara system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 2004 Report Share Posted October 20, 2004 excerpted from Follow the Angels The Path of Dedication Swami B. R. Sridhara The negative cannot exist without the positive, and so to the positive cannot exist without the negative. In the words of our Guru Maharaja, Radha and Krsna are the predominated and predominating Moieties. Two Moieties-two halves of the one whole. One predominated and one predominating, but both have equal importance in their existence. One cannot stand without the other, and the fullest expression of this principle is Radha-Govinda. Our mantra, our guru-parampara, the Rupanuga-Sampradaya, all point towards this principle. In support of this we find dasya-rasa, sakhya-rasa vatsalya-rasa, and others. But the principal direction is towards madhurya-rasa. They are leading us to the full rasa. All others are partial, subordinate and subservient-supplemental to themain rasa, madhurya-rasa. But that supplemental service is also necessary. Madhurya-rasa does not stand alone. It must have its paraphernalia: the friends, the parents, all must be there with this rasa. Those who have an inner liking for such rasa are so fortunate! Vasudeva Datta has said, yadi gaura na ha'ta, tabe ki haita, kemane dharitam . radhara mahima, prema-rasa-sima, jagate janata ke? "If Mahaprabhu had not appeared then how could we sustain our lives? How could we live? What type of ecstatic rasa has He imbibed that we have been able to have a little taste? Without this our lives would be impossible. Who else could take us to the acme of realization of the position of Srimati Radharani? She is the greatest victim to the consuming capacity of Sri Krsna. She stands as the greatest sacrifice before Krsna's infinite consuming power. Rasaraja- Mahabhava—the rasa is there, and She is the drawer of that rasa from the storehouse. She has such negative capacity that She can draw out the rasa to the highest degree both in quality and quantity." Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Svami Maharaja said, "My guru is Radharani. She will be very gracious to You, Krsna, if You help me in discharging the order of my Gurudeva, if You help me in my propaganda work." krsna taba punya habe bhai, e-punya koribe jabe radharani khusi habe dhruva ati boli toma tai "If You seek anything, if You are in want of anything, Krsna, then that is the good will of Radharani. And She will be pleased with You if You help me, because I am attempting to carry out the order of one whom is none other than Srimati Radharani personified. So You must help me." Krsna had no alternative but to come down to him and help in his propaganda work. He had to come. Svami Maharaja was such a great friend of mine! He went away, but he is still with me through you. He is so kind to me! He is forcibly engaging me. Where else shall we get such a good friend, such a kind friend? . . . Svayam Bhagavan and Svayam Rupa Svayam Bhagavan is always with Radharani, and others are of lower order. Svayam Bhagavan is always with Svayam Rupa. Svayam Bhagavan and Svayam Rupa, Radharani. In rasa, Svayam Bhagavan is always by the side of Radharani, and Svayam Prakasa is by the side of the other gopis. It is the first-class double, or facsimile, of Krsna. There is first-class double, then second-class double, and so on. In rasa, only Svayam Bhagavan is at the side of Radharani, and at the side of other gopis is Svayam Prakasa. In this way the gradation is there. So, radha-kinkara has been settled for us to be the highest achievement. Through Radharani we can taste the service of Svayam Bhagavan. Svayam Bhagavan and Svayam Rupa. The qualitative current that passes among Them, that we want. Our maximum, highest proyojana is there. When Svayam Bhagavan and Svayam Rupa are connected and performing lila, that is of the highest order. However minor the contact, we want that quality only, rupanuga-dhara. That is available in quantity to those younger devotees, the manjaris. They have free entrance to the deepest lila. The more mature friends, the sakhis, cannot approach. They may not approach, but the Rupa Manjari class may do so freely. These are very high talks. We are not eligible to speak about all these things. You are helping me to take out from my inner heart so many beautiful and valuable things. It is through your help that these old memories are coming again fresh to I am forced to take out those things of the inner nature of my previous life that I received from my Gurudeva as wealth. Again I have the chance of seeing that treasury. I am given the opportunity by this recapitulation of what I heard at the divine feet of Gurudeva. I just sincerely repeat it to you. It is such. This is our education, what I received from the divine feet of Gurudeva. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 2004 Report Share Posted October 20, 2004 Tridandisvami Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja HE ONLY SAW THE SCHOOL BUILDING Volgograd, Russia: September 16, 2004 PM We have been explaining the verse beginning “anyabilasita sunyam,” especially with reference to the various grades of mamata (the sense of “mineness” towards Krsna) and anukulyena anusilanam (continuous and favorable service to the Divine Couple). We have thus far explained up to the Pandavas. Lord Krsna Himself serves them – not only them but even their horses – and He ordered Hanuman to help and serve them. Draupadi, the wife of the Pandavas, is a sakhi (a dear friend, not in a conjugal relationship but in the mood of reverence and as a family member) of Krsna; so they are very glorious. Still, there is something lacking in their devotion. Sri Uddhava is so much superior to the Pandavas. Lord Krsna wanted to go to Vrndavana to pacify Mother Yasoda, Nanda Baba and all the other residents. He wanted to remain in Vrndavana forever; but there was a problem. If He would go to Vrndavana, He would not be able to pacify them. Due to their knowing that He would soon be leaving again, their feelings of separation would double and triple and become a thousand times greater. So He did not dare to go there. He was worried for His father and mother; not as much for His sakhas, because their feelings of separation were not as high as those of His mother and father and the gopis. His father and mother had become blind in separation. Those who have an intense sense of mineness also experience a strong separation mood. If there is no mamata, there is no separation mood. Feelings of separation depend on the gradation of feelings of mineness. If the sense of mamata is condensed, then in meeting there is so much happiness and in separation there is so much suffering. The gopis feel the fire of separation to the extreme point, because they love Sri Krsna more than anyone else – even more than Mother Yasoda, Nanda Baba, Subala and Sridama. Therefore in the night, when Krsna is supposed to be sleeping, He leaves His bed and runs from home to pacify the gopis. He takes His flute and runs. While Mother Yasoda was sleeping, and He would go to Vrndavana – to Vamsi-vata – to play on His flute and call the gopis. At the time of meeting Krsna, the gopis would become maddened in love. Then, if Krsna would vanish for a moment, their separation would increase to such a stage that they sometimes identified themselves with Sri Krsna Himself. When Krsna disappeared from the Rasa dance arena, some gopis would think themselves Krsna’s associates like Mother Yasoda, and others would think themselves Krsna Himself playing on His flute. There would be no flute, but still they would think themselves playing His flute. They were fully absorbed in a fire of separation. We cannot explain the gopis situation, and even Srila Sukadeva Gosvami and Srila Vyasadeva could not explain their stage. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu revealed something of it in his Gambira-lila. Sometimes His hands, legs and head would all enter within His body, just like the withdrawn limbs of a tortoise. Sometimes He would jump in the ocean and remain floating there for 24 hours. At that time the joints of His hands and legs would sometimes become separated by eight inches, and they remained connected only by the skin. This must also have taken place in the bodies of the gopis. We cannot even imagine how glorious they are. There are two situations; first meeting and then separation. Srimad-bhagavatam has explained the gopis meeting with Krsna in the arena of the Rasa-dance. At that time Sri Krsna would sing up to the fifth note, “sa re ga ma pa”, and the gopis would sing higher, up to the eighth, “da ni sa”. Krsna would then glorify them by saying, “Sadhu, sadhu, sadhu”, meaning “You have done marvelously”. Krsna could not sing so high. At that time He would embrace the gopis neck and say, “You should not vanish from rasa; or else I will not be able to survive.” Especially, He would embrace the neck of Srimati Radhika and say, “Please don’t leave the rasa dance, and please don’t have any maan (transcendental loving jealous anger) and thus neglect Me.” There are so many truths that have not been told openly in Srimad Bhagavatam, but Srila Jiva Gosvami, Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura have explained something in their commentaries and left some service in this regard for others. In their meditation Lord Brahma, Lord Sankara and others pray to serve Laksmi-devi, and Laksmi-devi herself is sweeping in Vrndavana for Sri Krsna. Brahma, Sankara and all others pray to be able to see a glimpse of the light coming from Krsna’s toenail, but they are not successful. On the other hand, the gopis are so glorious that they openly took the lotus feet upon which Brahma meditates and they kept them on their breasts. Why did they do so? Not for their satisfaction, but for the satisfaction of Krsna. They bound Krsna with their love and affection, whereas no one else could bind Him – including Uddhava, Uddhava’s father, and Uddhava’s forefathers. Krsna Himself glorifies the gopis. All the Vrajavasis were burning in the fire of separation for Him, and especially the gopis. Among the gopis, this separation fire was felt especially by Candravali and Srimati Radhika, and also by Lalita, Visakha, Citra and all others like them. Krsna wanted to go to Vrndavana but He did not dare to go, because He thought their separation mood and suffering would increase. He told Uddhava, “Don’t think I am in Mathura. Perhaps you are afraid; you don’t want to give up My association. But I am partly here and fully in Vrndavana. When you will go to Vrndavana, you will realize that I am fully there. I want to be where love and affection is in the highest stage; therefore I remain fully in Vrndavana.” ta man-manaska trst-prana mad-arthe tyakta-daihikah mam eva dayitam prestham atmanam manasa gatah ye tyakta-loka-dharmas ca mad-arthe tan bibharmy aham [“The minds of those gopis are always absorbed in Me, and their very lives are ever devoted to Me. For My sake they have abandoned everything related to their bodies, renouncing ordinary happiness in this life, as well as religious duties necessary for such happiness in the next life. I alone am their dearmost beloved and, indeed, their very Self. Therefore I take it upon Myself to sustain them in all circumstances.” (Srimad-Bhagavatam 10.46.4)] Sri Krsna told Uddhavaji, “Tan man-manaska – the gopis are the soul in My heart. If their mind was present in their body, they would have died. But they have fully deposited their mind, soul and everything they possess in My heart, and so they remain alive. An example can be given in this connection: Once a newly married girl came to Nandagaon. She had heard of Lord Krsna’s glories, beauty and attractive qualities. She had heard about Him from her neighbors, but she had never actually seen Him. She wanted an occasion to meet Krsna and said, “Can I see Krsna? Can I meet Krsna? Her mother-in-law was against and told her, “Don’t go to that snake. Krsna is a poisonous snake. If He will bite you, the fever resulting from the poison of that bite will never come down. Remain in the house. Don’t go to that black snake.” She asked, “Why is your daughter going to see that black snake, and why are you going? You are an old lady, so why are you going to see that black snake? Even blind people go. Why should I not go? Even if you try to keep me in the house, I will must go and see Him.” Krsna knew that this newly married girl wanted to meet Him, and so He could not check Himself. Along with thousands of millions of calves and cowherd friends, He passed her door while playing His flute. As that girl waited at the door and peeped out, He touched the tail of a new calf that jumped up and ran right to the door. He followed the calf, and when He reached the girl, He took His flute and touched her chin. He took her mind and heart and ran away – and she was left standing like a statue. Her mother-in-law then approached her and said, “What are you doing? I warned you, but you would not heed my warning. Now go and churn yogurt.” The girl took what she thought was a pot of yogurt, but because her mind was not with her, she did not realize that it was actually a pot of mustard seeds. As she began churning the mustard seeds while thinking of Krsna, her mother-in-law came and said, “What nonsense are you doing? I warned you, but you are not hearing or obeying me. Go and take water from the well.” Her mother-in-law gave her a bucket, a rope, two pitchers on her head, a pitcher in one hand and a baby boy in the other arm. She arrived at the well that was somewhat far from her house, as she was accustomed to go daily, and she began to make a knot around the neck of the baby instead of the pitcher. Aghast, all the ladies taking water from the well took the baby from her and called out, “A ghost has caught her – not a ghost – the son of Nanda Maharaja has caught her.” Somehow she returned to her mother-in-law’s house, but her mind never returned. She continued always thinking of Krsna. This is called man-manaska. You will have to be like this – and then Krsna will allow you to see Him and meet with Him. You cannot give your heart at present, so pray to Him that He will take it. So Krsna told Uddhava, “The gopis are My life and soul, I am the life and soul of all the gopis. For Me, they have forgotten to take prasadam, to decorate themselves, to drink water or to do anything regarding their bodies. They have fully given their soul to Me; I am their most beloved. They have given up children, father, housework, husbands and everything else, and they don’t care for Vedic religiosity that would prohibit their meeting with Me. “I must care for them and nourish them; so I am sending you to Vrndavana. They are waiting for Me, because I told them, ‘I will return tomorrow or the day after tomorrow, just after killing Kamsa.’ The gopis have full faith in My words. They think, ‘Krsna never tells a lie. We have faith in Him that He will come today or tomorrow.’ “They are keeping their life and soul together because they are waiting for Me. They think, ‘if Krsna will return and see that we have died, He will lament and also give up His life.’ Due to this they are not giving up their bodies. “Uddhava, go and pacify them at once; otherwise they will die. All the calves, friends, trees, creepers and everything of Vrndavana are remembering Me. Go and pacify them. Be there for some time, because you will not be able to pacify them in one day.” Why did Lord Krsna send Uddhava to Vrndavana? There are thousands of reasons. One reason is that Krsna thought, “The gopis are feeling separation from Me and I am also feleling separation from them. There are none here to whom I can open My heart and share My separation mood. Uddhava should therefore be trained in the school of the gopis. He should be trained there. If he can understand their love, then I will be able to explain my heartache to him and My feeling of separation can be somewhat pacified.” Krsna considered, “I have learned something about their prema, which includes sneha, mana, pranaya, raga, anuraga, mahabhava and beyond. I have even learned something of madanakya bhava. Love (prema) lives in the gopis’ heart, because they are the abode of love.” Krsna wanted Uddhava to go to the school where Srimati Radhika is the principal and Visakha and Lalita are the department heads. He had told Uddhava, “You should sit on the chariot and go to Vrndavana.” He sent him on the same chariot that Akrura rode on when he went to Vrndavana to take Sri Balarama and Lord Krsna to Mathura. That chariot was made of gold and jewels. By the mercy of Paurnamasi (Yogamaya) Uddhava was able to reach Vrndavana. When he first arrived he saw that Lord Krsna was fully present there, and the next morning he approached the college of love and affection. Some gopis came and gave him an interview, to see if he was qualified to be admitted into that college or not. They tested him, after which they refused him admission. He had failed the examination, so He was only allowed to see the school building. He saw the principle, Srimati Radhika, and others like Lalita and Visakha (the department heads), but he was not granted admission. What he saw, however, was enough for him, and then he returned to Mathura. When he once again saw Krsna he told Him, “You must go there immediately. No one but You can pacify them.” “Uddhava should be trained about love in the gopis’ school,” Krsna thought. That was the reason He sent him – so He would be able to discuss His own love for the gopis with Uddhava. Editorial advisors: Sripad Madhava Maharaja and Sripad Brajanatha dasa Transcriber: Vasanti dasi Typist: Anita dasi Editor: Syamarani dasi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 2004 Report Share Posted October 20, 2004 As for the little bits of stuff you wrote about sannyasa mantras as being some kind of eligibility for revelation of ones eternal relationship, I believe that is a concoction and not supported anywhere. Can you present sastric pramana for that ideology ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 2004 Report Share Posted October 20, 2004 Name Proper from a Bonafide Guru We shall try to take upadesa, instruction, from a real source, not from just anyone. Asat sangete krsna nama nahi haya: we cannot find real Krsna-nama in the association of those that do not have it. The external sound, the superficial sound may come out, but not the substance. The external cover of the sound, the ordinary sound, that may not be Krsna. Nama-aparadha, nama-abhasa. It is ordinary sound, not Vaikuntha sound, not spiritual sound. Where sound is surcharged with spiritual knowledge, with feeling,that is Krsna-nama, that is Krsna. The superficial imitation of Krsnanamais not Krsna; it is mundane That is the differencebetween mundane sound and spiritual sound. When we have spiritual life within and we speak about Krsna, our words are surcharged with spiritual substance. There is a story about a doctor who had a dispensary where he saw many patients and administered much medicine. One day, the doors of the dispensary were open, and the doctor was absent. One monkey entered there, and monkeys are good imitators. The monkey entered, and taking a seat on the doctor's chair, he imitated the doctor, giving medicine here and there. But the monkey's treatment is not that of the doctor. The external aspect is there, imitation, but the inner aspect is absent. Similarly, spiritual understanding must be there within the physical actions. Krsna-nama is not only mundane sound; it is something else. It is necessary that we take the sound from a bonafide guru who has spiritual realization, whose words are surcharged with spiritual substance. It is required. Otherwise, it will be all in vain; it is only cultivation of mundane sound. Vaikuntha nama grahanam asesa. It is said in the sastra that you should take the Name identified with Infinite Vaikuntha-nama; that sound that has a connection with the Infinite, not the mundane limited sound, connected to the limited world. An ordinary person, a student, must come to a real professor who will be able to offer real education, not to anyone and everyone. This is the norm. A person of high intelligence can discover something from ordinary events. From ordinary incidents, an expert can find out the higher truth, just like Newton. When the apple fell from the tree, the realization came to him: "Oh, the earth is drawing it, attracting it." Ordinary people see an apple falling, but no such realization comes that the earth is drawing it, attracting it. Newton discovered gravitation. Observation of the ordinary gives new light to an expert, a person with a higher brain. In the same way, the higher spiritualist can obtain deep realizations from the apparently commonplace. But for ordinary persons it is not possible. They should go to a proper source. It is mentioned in the Upanisads, in Bhagavatam, Bhagavad-gita, how and with what attitude the disciple should approach the acarya, the spiritual preceptor. If the acarya has practical and scriptural knowledge of the truth, if this qualification is there, he is not bogus, but a real acarya. We must approach a real doctor to cure disease, not a monkey imitating a doctor. It is common sense. If we have thirst for spiritual knowledge, then we must go to a proper spiritualist, not one that will harm us, avaisnava mukhod girnam, an imitation acarya. It iscommon sense; progress is possible when a real transaction is made. Sometimes that is very difficult. A good professor is necessary, but if the student is not up to standard, then the professor can't do anything. Both must be qualified, student and professor; only then can scholarship be imparted. Advantage of Kali-yuga In this Kali-yuga, there is a special dispensation. Kirtanad eva krsnasya mukta-sangah param vrajet. Mahaprabhu Himself comes to distribute it. It is a better situation than during other ages. It is stated in sastra: yatra sankirtanenaiva sarva-svarto 'bhilabhyate, in the Golden Age, those persons that are arya guna jnah sara bhaginah, who can judge things according to quality by clever understanding, they will feel, "I want to dance in the Kali-yuga. There's a special dispensation from the highest." Yatra sankirtanenaiva. "Welcome to Kali-yuga, the Iron Age." Those sadhus who have a deeper understanding hanker after chanting in Kali-yuga. "I don't want birth in the Golden Age, but in the Iron Age, yatra sankirtanenaiva. Only by the method of chanting the Name of Hari, everything may be attained, sarva-svarto 'bhilabhyate. The whole thing is God's special dispensation. So Kali-yuga is special and I want to take birth in that Kali." Sukadeva Gosvami also declares in the assembly of those authentic scholars, kaler dosa-nidhe rajan. This Iron Age is full of defects, but it has one great advantage, asti hy-eko mahan gunah: only by taking to preaching about Krsna, one can be freed of all undesirable things and attain the highest goal, kirtanad eva krsnasya mukta-sangah param vrajet. What is that Krsna sankirtana, that preaching about Krsna? It must be very special, that which can give us so much benefit. What is that thing? We must inquire very attentively. This is not a scheming thing, a deceitful thing. It is a fact, an ontological fact. Without the help of anything else, only by the chanting of Krsnanama, preaching about Krsna, we shall undo all undesirable things and attain the highest end of life. What is that? How do we attempt that? With such deep attention we have to inquire about this. Not to trample it. It is not a trifling thing. It is described that it has so much prospectdive deeply to understand it. It must be done with that sort of feeling. We must "die to live" with all seriousness. Die to live—with such seriousness we may attain that goal. What is kirtana? It is distribution to the environment. Kirtana is accepting everything from the higher plane and distributing it to ordinary persons. That should be done in a serious mood. This is krsna-katha; this is Krsna consciousness, Krsna consciousness from the proper source. Derive it from the proper source and distribute it at large. To preach is not an easy thing in this Kali-yuga, because the environment is very negative. Kala means quarrel—there are so many opinions. All are quarreling to establish their own superiority. They are trying hard to establish their different types of thought. In the midst of them all, we have to distribute this, to do it in earnest. We must do something factual. With much energy this dedication must come from our heart with all sincerity. Then we shall get that highest achievement. It is not an ordinary thing, but a reality. Sraddha is the Minimum Demand Krsna consciousness is causeless; that is, it has no beginning, and apratihata, it has no end. No beginning, no end. It is the central flow or vibration or wave. Any separate interest, separate consciousness, that is anartha. Artha means necessity; whatever is not a necessity, but is posturing as a necessity based on separate interest-that is anartha. What is necessary is to avoid that track of separate interest that misleads us, and to learn to have the Infinite reading, the reading of the Infinite-to identify with the universal flow, the universal wave. When we are carried away by different waves of separate consciousness, that is anartha, that which is not necessary. The only necessity is to merge in the wave of universal interest. It is for Itself, for Himself. Aham hi sarva yajnanam bhokta ca prabhur eva ca. "I'm the only enjoyer of all these sacrifices or movements in this world. I'm the only enjoyer and everything belongs to Me, unconditionally." That is God's position. He is paramount, the highest harmonizing center. And we must all submit cent-percent to Him. Any deviation from that is anartha. Anartha means meaninglessness, that which has no meaning. Meaning, serving a purpose, is to catch that universal wave, to have connection only with the universal movement. Anything other than that is anartha, undesirable, unnecessary. It will serve no purpose. We are in connection with anartha, the undesirable things that won't serve any real purpose. Our real cause, the purpose of our lives, our satisfaction, and our existence will be found within the universal wave of the Absolute. That is Krsna consciousness, the most universal, fundamental wave. We have to catch that wave. Our goal, our satisfaction, the fulfillment of our life is to be found only there, in that plane, not in this superficial plane of nationality or family interest or social service. All these are provincial interests. But to stop one's movement altogether, to do away with one's ownexistence, to attain samadhi, cessation of all activity-that is suicidal.We have to give up enjoyment as well as renunciation; give up evildoing and also the abstention from all action. In a nation, so many workers may be failing to follow the proper rules for production, andthat is bad, it is disorder. The product will be bad. However, to go onstrike won't produce good results either. No work, that is also bad. To work in the interest of the country, only that is good. From our local, separate interest, we must go to the universal interest,to the interest of the Absolute. Avoid all local interest, however greatit may seem, whether self-centered, family-centered, village-centered,province-centered, or human-centered. Mahaprabhu advised us to purify ourselves with the help of sounddivine. But the sound should be genuine, transcendental, Krsna conscious, the real wave. There is a minimal demand from us for our purification in this age of controversy. Kali means quarrel,controversy. Everything will create some doubt; everyone wants some proof; everyone has a very suspicious mind. Take advantage of this sound. A minimal demand is required of us, because the process is very generous. The minimal demand, the minimal admission fee is sraddha, faith. If we do this, if we perform this sankirtana, then everything will be done. That basic faith must be there. That attitude will help us. There should be heartfelt cooperation, sincere cooperation with the Krsna consciousness agents. That can purify us very easily. The minimal demand from us is to have the faith that this movement of Krsna consciousness will purify us. If we participate in this movement, everything will be done. Such a generous, wide conviction, and sincere cooperation with the agents can help us in a very short time. The cooperation with the divine sound, the sound aspect of the Supreme, is easily approachable for beginners. From that, many other aspects of the Infinite will come to our understanding. Begin with the sound aspect of the universal consciousness. The sound aspect is easily approachable; others will come gradually. Our approach must be sincere, heartfelt. We are in trouble, and we need this. That will give us real relief from all troubles. It will put an end to all the troubles that we're experiencing now, and also those that we may have to experience in the future. Qualifications for Chanting the Name "Oh Govinda. What can I do? There is not a single offender like myself. My Lord, I am ashamed to take my offenses before You and have them forgiven. It is shameful even to point out before You that I am so heinous, that I am such an offender. I feel ashamed to recollect my own bad deeds. I feel ashamed that I shall take them to You and pray for their forgiveness. I am ashamed. Such a class of sinner I am. What more shall I say to You, my Lord? I am such a sinner." This is the nature of the high devotees; they think themselves unfit for service. What is the way? What is our destination? Progress towards this side, the negative, submissive side. Our place is there, at the farthest end of the negative side, the smallest of the small, the lowest of the low. Where do we cast our glance, our look? What should we do? Our goal is this, to reach that negative side, sincerely: self-abnegation to the extreme. This is the measurement, to become the lowest of the low. The goal is to realize our proper position there: lowest of the low. Is it possible at all? Is it imaginary, an imaginary quantity? For what purification may we aspire? Self-abnegation. Analyze, analyze, and discard. Analyze and throw out all egoistic and assertive tendencies: "I am something; I am someone. I have something to be proud of." These have to be eliminated, and eliminated completely. It is not an easy thing. To become big is easy, but it is all false, like racketeering. To say, "I am a big man," is very easy. But to say, "I am nothing," to accept this creed in its true color, its true nature, that is very difficult. "I am no one; I am nothing!" It is very difficult. Vaisnava haite bara mane jiru sadha, trnad-api sloke tripure gelo bara. There is a familiar saying in Bengal: "I had a great aspiration to become a Vaisnava, but when I came across the verse describing the qualifications of a Vaisnava, trnad api sunicena, taror api sahisnuna, I was disappointed. It is not possible to be humbler than a blade of grass, and more tolerant than a tree." Amanina manadena. Give honor to everyone, but don't aspire afterhonor. In this attitude we should take the Name of the Lord, of Krsna. Then our desire will be fulfilled. We have to take the Name of Krsna with such an attitude. We must be humbler than a blade of grass and more tolerant than a tree. When the tree is cut down, it still gives shade to the logger. And it doesn't beg anyone for water. Suchforbearance! In this way we have to take the Name of Krsna, and we shall find His help at once, in no time. The standard, the qualification for taking the Holy Name, has been recommended thus. trnad api sunicena taror api sahisnuna amanina manadena kirtaniyah sada harih "One can chant the Holy Name of the Lord in a humble state of mind, thinking himself lower than the straw in the street. One should be more tolerant than the tree, devoid of all sense of false prestige and ready to offer all respect to others. In such a state of mind one can chant the Holy Name of the Lord constantly." (Siksastaka 3) Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura has explained that we are actually lower than the straw in the street, because in our present existence we are vikrta, or deranged. But the straw is at least passive and maintaining its natural position. We have lost our proper function and become of negative value; we are lacking the positive value of straw because we are adverse to our natural position. We are going against our own interest with our intelligence. We have intelligence, but it is misguided, opposed to the proper order of things.The straw is poised; it cannot move willfully. But we can move in a wrong way, so we are actually in a more heinous position than the straw. We use our assets willingly to misguide ourselves, but the straw maintains its fixed position without deviation. In the worldly sense we may hold a position superior to that of a blade of grass or a tree, but what of that? All our credits are being misused for our selfishness. So we are lower than straw. We are armed, but armed for suicide. A madman should not possess a dagger. He is dangerous. He could stab himself at any moment. He is mad." Srila Bhakti Raksak Sridhar Maharaja Follow the Angels download available: http://www.guardian-of-devotion../books/books.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 2004 Report Share Posted October 20, 2004 From guest: [puru ??, please name yourself to make conversing easy] Guest replied to me thusly : "Did Srila Sirdhar Maharaja have an agenda? Did Srila Rupa Gosvami have an agenda? The word does not apply!" That was in reply to my point i.e those with an agenda will try to change the meaning of what the acaryas write. Before you asked if Sridhar Maharaja has an agenda, you quoted Sridhara Maharaja thusly: "The most rare and elevated stage of devotion is the line of spontaneous devotion, known as raga-marga. In that line, guided by the qualified guru, an elevated pure devotee may gradually come to render service to a leader of one of the groups of Krsna's personal associates, who serve the Lord in His pastimes in friendship (sakhyarasa), parenthood (vatsalya-rasa), or consorthood (madhura-rasa). In Vrndavana, the Lord is being served in sponaneous devotion by His friends such as Subala Sakha, and by His parents, Nanda Maharaja and mother Yasoda. Gopis such as Lalita and Visakha serve Him in conjugal love. But amongst all His associates, and amongst all the gopis, the highest order of divine loving service is rendered to the Lord by Srimati Radharani. Therefore the acme of raga-marga is to render service unto Radharani (Radha-dasyam). This is the highest goal of the Rupanuga Gaudiya Sampradaya, the followers of pure devotion as taught by Srila Rupa Goswami Prabhupada, in the line of Lord Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu." Now this is exactly what I have saying is what the Gaudiya sampradaya is supposed to teach. I have said nothing different. Indeed the acme of rasa is in conjugal love, but the sampradaya does not teach it exclusively as the only avenue of approach to Vraja, it is included along with the other relationships, which each individual will have a unique natural inclination towards. Those with an agenda will distort the teachings, and instead they try and present the teachings as exclusively presenting manjari bhava. That is my point, no other point am I trying to make in this debate. So continuing to make posts glorifying conjugal is completely missing the point. I am not arguing against that at all. It is trying to paint Gaudiya siddhanta as exclusively teaching manjari bhava that I am arguing against, nothing else. Why you keep trying to paint the debate in some other way, I am at a loss as to explain why. What is your agenda in trying to gloss over the point of this debate, trying to make it instead about the glories of conjugal love ? That is not the question or point and never has been, the point is how Gaudiya teachings are supposed to be presented i.e not exclusively as only about manjari bhava. The debate is not about conjugal rasa versus another rasa, and which is considered higher, that is a debate in your mind alone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 21, 2004 Report Share Posted October 21, 2004 The so called debate is only in your imagination, since no one but YOU ever said gaudiya siddhanta was exclusively concerned with manjari bhava. Manjari-bhava still remains the eternal mood of Srila Rupa Gosvami and according to Srila Sridhar Maharja and all the other Rupanuga acaryas, is our highest aspiration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 21, 2004 Report Share Posted October 21, 2004 If there is no debate but the one in my mind, then you must be a figment of my imagination, so you can stop responding now, unless you are not real, in that case...never mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 21, 2004 Report Share Posted October 21, 2004 Since you can't offer anything substantial concerning the original question by theist regarding the difference between the gaudiya and the three other sampradayas, then ending this thread is fine with me. Srila B.V. Tirtha Maharaja's explanation is still credible and reasonable and in line with all the information we have about Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and his followers from our acaryas. BTW you've never said who you actually are, and if you are anyone's disciple and under whose guidance you study shastra. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 21, 2004 Report Share Posted October 21, 2004 "BTW you've never said who you actually are[1], and if you are anyone's disciple[2] and under whose guidance you study shastra[3]" 1. You can call me Maurice. /images/graemlins/cool.gif 2. Hmm...let me try to remember...spiritual master...disciple...initiated...sorry, can't remember, it was just so looooong ago. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif 3. I don't really "study" per se, so much anymore, I take more of an interactive approach ?...so to speak. /images/graemlins/wink.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 21, 2004 Report Share Posted October 21, 2004 ***Kailasa, once again your post has no scriptural reference. We follow mood gopis as mood Lord caitanya. I am give citation from Rupa Gosavmi, Prabhupada, SBT. You write "gopi, gopi" but not understand his mood. Mood Gosvamis. Supreme mood Lord caitanya is goal GV and meand GV. It is so simple thing. It is so hard? See Lord Caitanya in Nilacala, it is so hard for understanding? ***Therefore one should accept the mood of the gopis in their service. In such a transcendental mood, one should always think of the pastimes of Sri Radha and Krsna. What mood. You give so many citation but not understand inner sence. Then I am write for all - DO NOT LISTEN WHO DO NOT UNDERSTAND GV. You listen, listen, but understanding 0. /images/graemlins/smile.gif Then needs listen celf realised person - Srila Prabhupada. Ok you theoretical understand Lord caitanya, but what you reach this practikal? Then needs uttama guru. Krisna lila it is some step it is not goal. But for krisna lila needs too real guru. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 21, 2004 Report Share Posted October 21, 2004 Siva you rigth - praching for public "gopis" it is offence first and second not all gopis. Guru preach greatness God first, and equally stay in all moods. Any way first person stay in santa rasa. Santa rasa it is ALL rasas. In santa rasa they stay in madhurya too. This people not understand nature spiritual world. This preachings from material plarform, material understanding. "Madhurya best" - they bring envy only. Madhurya best it is good, but this people do not stay in this level, therefore they do aparadha and rasabhasa. We needs be very carfull do not listen materialists. If person read books SP, then he is be able understand and feel pure sourse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 21, 2004 Report Share Posted October 21, 2004 Bhakti Vidagdha Bhagawat Maharaja 1. If you do not like to invite His Holiness Narayana Maharaja to any of your ISKCON centers, that's fine, but I think that if a vaisnava shows up at my door and I do not feel any happiness upon seeing him, that also is to be considered a vaisnava-aparadha. H. H. Narayana Maharaja is a well-known vaisnava (that you cannot deny) so if you or any of the members in your organization (which is also supposed to be a vaisnava organization) are not happy to see such a vaisnava at your doorstep, then you are generating such aparadhas. kailasa Invite then preachers ISKCON. Open own the temples for sermon ISKCON. ISKCON follows Shrily Prabhupada's instructions. But before to allow to whom that lectures, it is necessary for them to follow. The NM preaches against ISKCON and against Shrila Prabhupada. ISKCON simply would care of NM that he made is smaller than his insults. ------------ Bhakti Vidagdha Bhagawat Maharaja 2. You are speaking about the indications of Srila Narahari Sarakara Thakura in the Sri Krsna Bhajanamrita that if one's spiritual master is in good standing, and yet is not sufficiently elevated to give a disciple instructions for his further advancement, then the disciple may take permission from his diksa-guru and thus take advantage of the more advance vaisnavas for instructions. Then you have asked, "What if the diksa-guru does not give his approval?". Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura has answered this very clearly in his book Jaiva-Dharma as follows: "When the disciple chooses someone as a guru, he has no opportunity to verify if that person is tattvajna (he who knows the treatises of Vaisnavism) and of the vaisnavas (in the real sense ) then at the time of the effect, he cannot get any result from that kind of initiation and must give him up at once". kailasa Vijaya-kumara: The disciple is not allowed to reject his diksa-guru. But if the diksa-guru is not qualified to teach, how can he instruct the disciple? Babaji: At the time of choosing the spiritual master, the prospective disciple should test to see whether the spiritual master has traveled to the farther shore of the Vedic scriptures and the science of the Supreme Lord. The spiritual master must be qualified to teach all aspects of the spiritual science. The disciple is not allowed to reject his diksa-guru. However, there are two circumstances where the disciple must reject his diksa-guru. If at the time of choosing a spiritual master the disciple did not test to see whether the spiritual master was a Vaisnava and learned in the spiritual science, the disciple may reject the spiritual master. Or, if it is seen that in the course of his activities the spiritual master does what he should not do, then the disciple may also reject the spiritual master. Again and again the scriptures give testimony to prove these points. In the Narada-pacanratra (quoted in Hari-bhakti-vilasa 1.101) it is said: "A spiritual master who speaks wrongly, without logic, and a disciple who hears wrongly, without logic, both go to a terrible hell for a long time that seems not to end." It is also said (Mahabharata, Udyoga-parva, Asvopakhyana 179.25): "A spiritual master who is materialistic, who does not know what should and should not be done, and who follows the wrong path should be rejected." It is also said (quoted in Hari-bhakti-vilasa 4.144): "A person who accepts mantra initiation from a non Vaisnava goes to hell. A person initiated in this way should accept initiation again, this time from a Vaisnava spiritual master." A second reason for rejecting the spiritual master is this: If at the time of choosing the spiritual master, the spiritual master was a Vaisnava and learned in the spiritual science, but by bad association the spiritual master became an impersonalist and a hater of Vaisnavas, then that spiritual master should be rejected. If one accepts a spiritual master who is neither an impersonalist, nor a hater of Vaisnavas, nor sinful, but is not very learned, then that spiritual master should not be rejected. One should honor that spiritual master. However, with the spiritual master's permission, one should approach another Vaisnava, serve him, and learn from him the spiritual science. Bhakti Vidagdha Bhagawat Maharaja - "Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura has answered this very clearly in his book Jaiva-Dharma as follows: "When the disciple chooses someone as a guru, he has no opportunity to verify if that person is tattvajna" Srila Bhaktivinoda - "At the time of choosing the spiritual master, the prospective disciple should test to see whether the spiritual master has traveled to the farther shore of the Vedic scriptures and the science of the Supreme Lord. " Ravindra Svarupa Maharaja - "Srila Narahari Sarakara Thakura in the Sri Krsna Bhajanamrita that if one's spiritual master is in good standing, and yet is not sufficiently elevated to give a disciple instructions for his further advancement, then the disciple may take permission from his diksa-guru and thus take advantage of the more advance vaisnavas for instructions." Srila Bhaktivinoda - "If one accepts a spiritual master who is neither an impersonalist, nor a hater of Vaisnavas, nor sinful, but is not very learned, then that spiritual master should not be rejected. One should honor that spiritual master. However, with the spiritual master's permission, one should approach another Vaisnava, serve him, and learn from him the spiritual science." ------------- Bhakti Vidagdha Bhagawat Maharaja It does not matter if the so-called guru is in good standing according to your ISKCON or G.B.C. rules. kailasa Aparadha against SBST, Shrila Prabhupada, ISKCON, GBC and spiritual masters. Probably this person is so great that he above the instruction parampara. ------------ Bhakti Vidagdha Bhagawat Maharaja You have put forward so many arguments to prove that H.H. Narayana Maharaja is not an advanced devotee. A word to the wise, please do not spread these ideas because you have to care for your own spiritual welfare and at the same time be careful not to criticize the advanced devotees kailasa You the politics simply destroy belief of others devotees. Advanced devotees do not expose itself as advanced - "kanistha-adhikari cannot imagine that anyone is more pious or religious than he, and he is not even aware that other devotees are more advanced. " ----------- Bhakti Vidagdha Bhagawat Maharaja You have also stated that H.H. Narayana Maharaja's approach is significantly different from that of your Srila Prabhupada and that he is not a siksa-disciple of your founder-acharya. kailasa Yes. He simply tries to use a name Srila Prabhupada at all not following Him. To speak this big hypocrisy that Sriman Narayana siksa disciple Srila Prabhupada's. ----------- Bhakti Vidagdha Bhagawat Maharaja Your Prabhupada taught you all that one should not blindly accept someone as a spiritual master. My question is that when he taught you all these things had you blindly accepted him as a spiritual master? It is quite clear that at the beginning of the ISKCON movement none of your godbrothers were well-aware of the necessary qualifications of a bonafide spiritual master. Just out of pure inspiration Prabhupada - "Spiritual understanding is nothing like an electrical charge from the master to the disciple, as foolishly claimed by some propaganda-mongers. Everything is full of sense and logic, and the exchange of views between the master and disciple is possible only when the reception is submissive and real. In the Caitanya-caritamrta it is said that one should receive the teaching of Lord Caitanya with intellect and full senses so that one can logically understand the great mission. "So this temple worship or accepting some authority, either you accept Krsna or you accept Lord Jesus Christ or jehovah or Lord Buddha or Guru Nanak, that is a different, I mean to say, kinds of faith, but this acceptance of authority is there in everywhere. Now who is the highest authority, that we have to see by understanding Vedic literature, by our arguments, by our sense, by our understanding. But this acceptance of authority is there." "Anyone who is engaged in hearing about Krsna... To whom? To Him, not those who are sleeping. Those who are actually hearing... Srnvatam means hearing, not sleeping. To such person. ... "I give intelligence." It doesn't require... If he's sincere, if he's actually a devotee, Krsna will help him. Guru-krsna-kipa. Guru is secondary, another mercy of Krsna. Krsna is helping within and without. That without help is guru, Krsna's representative. So Krsna is always ready to help us, and when Krsna is helping us, it is very easy to understand Him. Therefore a devotee is beyond all doubts. Beyond all doubts. There is no doubt. Not that blindly we are accepting Krsna as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. No. We have got all our arguments, scientific, philosophical, anything. Then we accept Krsna. That acceptance is nice. That is uttama-adhikari. Srila Bhaktivinoda - "At the time of choosing the spiritual master, the prospective disciple should test to see whether the spiritual master has traveled to the farther shore of the Vedic scriptures and the science of the Supreme Lord. " -------------- Bhakti Vidagdha Bhagawat Maharaja ...they had taken initiation from Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja and were definitely not cheated by following the instructions of the Caitya-guru. Even after having diligently studied the scriptures it does not qualify one to select a bonafide guru. kailasa "A bona fide spiritual master does not mention anything not mentioned in the authorized scriptures." "The guru is a qualified brahmana; therefore he knows Brahman and Parabrahman. He thus devotes his life for the service of Parabrahman. " "That is authorized scripture. Just like you study some book, and you develop some quality after reading that book, similarly, when you actually have scripture, then you develop all these qualities. And guru, spiritual master, means who teaches you all these things. So you have to make your progress—sadhu-sastra-guru vakya. You have to corroborate whether guru, what guru is speaking, whether it is there in the scripture; what scripture is speaking, whether that is in the character of guru, or in the sadhu, saintly persons, or spiritual master. So you have to always make comparison with three things: sadhu, sastra, guru. Nobody can become a spiritual master who has no reference to the scriptures and these qualities. Nobody can be accepted as a qualified man, he has not..., if one has not developed his character through the scripture under the instruction of guru." "Guru does not say anything of his own manufacture or research. He says only what he has heard from the Supreme. That's all. So it is easier. It is easier. If the child says, "A watch, a watch," the child may be imperfect, but he has heard from his father, Here is a watch." That knowledge is perfect. " ---------------- Bhakti Vidagdha Bhagawat Maharaja The inspiration that comes from the heart is what helps you. If this inspiration comes from the G.B.C., then it may not be permanent. The only judgment a disciplic can make about his guru is whether he is a mayavadi or attached to sense enjoyment. If the disciple wants to get to know his guru in every sense, then he has to be on an equal level with that guru , then what need would there be for an initiation? Please stop to think it over for one minute. How was it that you chose your Prabhupada as a bonafide guru when all of you were completely (and it still seems that most of you are) ignorant about guru-tattva? kailasa He is has big knowledge - "Just out of pure inspiration", "Even after having diligently studied the scriptures it does not qualify one to select a bonafide guru. " He is disciple Narayana Prabhu? He tries to criticize GBC? --------------------- Bhakti Vidagdha Bhagawat Maharaja "you were completely (and it still seems that most of you are) ignorant about guru-tattva? " kailasa The guru tattva is not pompous words. As is pompous! Pride mixed with ignorance. ---------------------- Bhakti Vidagdha Bhagawat Maharaja I have the answers from the scriptures. This can only happen by inspiration. kaulasa No, you do not know scriptures. You it have already managed to prove. ------------------------ Bhakti Vidagdha Bhagawat Maharaja Being merciful to the jiva, Sriman Mahaprabhu inspires the heart of the disciple in the form of Caitya-guru so as to accept initiation or instructions from a certain vaisnava acharya. Your G.B.C. members are trying to prove that Mahaprabhu has cheated them, because at first they were inspired to take siksa from Srila Sridhara Maharaja and later rejected him as unauthorized. Then they accepted instructions from H.H. Narayana Maharaja and once again stopped coming to him also. Does this mean that they were wrongly inspired by Mahaprabhu again and again so as to take instructions from unbonafide siksa-gurus? kailasa Maya this inspiration - "I am in everyone's heart as the Supersoul. As soon as one desires to worship some demigod, I make his faith steady so that he can devote himself to that particular deity." PURPORT God has given independence to everyone; therefore, if a person desires to have material enjoyment and wants very sincerely to have such facilities from the material demigods, the Supreme Lord, as Supersoul in everyone's heart, understands and gives facilities to such persons. As the supreme father of all living entities, He does not interfere with their independence, but gives all facilities so that they can fulfill their material desires. Some may ask why the all-powerful God gives facilities to the living entities for enjoying this material world and so lets them fall into the trap of the illusory energy. The answer is that if the Supreme Lord as Supersoul does not give such facilities, then there is no meaning to independence. Therefore He gives everyone full independence—whatever one likes—but His ultimate instruction we find in the Bhagavad-gita: one should give up all other engagements and fully surrender unto Him. That will make man happy..." -------------------------- Bhakti Vidagdha Bhagawat Maharaja Tomorrow they may discover that they were cheated by Mahaprabhu when they accepted Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja as their diksa and siksa-guru. kailasa Today you may discover that they were cheated by himself when they accepted Narayana Maharaja as your diksa and siksa-guru. ------------------------- Bhakti Vidagdha Bhagawat Maharaja Is this the reason why Harikesa left your movement as well as the instructions of your Prabhupada and so have many others? kailasa Is this the reason why Vasudeva left your movement as well as the instructions of your Prabhupada and so have many others? You can understand what level of your insults? -------------------------- Bhakti Vidagdha Bhagawat Maharaja Some of your ISKCON G.B.C. members accepted H.H. Narayana Maharaja as their siksa-guru who must be on an equal level as the diksa-guru, and now you are questioning whether he is a rasika-bhakta and an advanced devotee or not? Maybe after some time you will have the same doubts about your own diksa-guru also. kailasa Some of your GM acaryas accepted H.H. Narayana Maharaja? Maybe after some time you will have the same doubts about your own diksa-guru also? ------------------------- Bhakti Vidagdha Bhagawat Maharaja Your G.B.C. has rejected 7 of your original 11 gurus. Does Narayana Maharaja have anything to do with this? kailasa Yes. -------------------------- Bhakti Vidagdha Bhagawat Maharaja To say that the present ISKCON structure is a karma-yoga organization, is to give them the highest respect. kailasa Distribution of books it karma? SBST give instruction on Radha kunda about karma-yoga? --------------------------- Bhakti Vidagdha Bhagawat Maharaja It is a shame that during the Tulasi worship, and parikrama you chant "yani kani-ca papani" etc.. kailasa It is glory Tulasi devi. Any way - "As a fire burns dry grass to ashes, so the holy name of the Lord, whether chanted knowingly or unknowingly, burns to ashes, without fail, all the reactions of one's sinful activities." "The chanting of the holy name of Lord Visnu is the best process of atonement for a thief of gold or other valuables, for a drunkard, for one who betrays a friend or relative, for one who kills a brahmana, or for one who indulges in sex with the wife of his guru or another superior. It is also the best method of atonement for one who murders women, the king or his father, for one who slaughters cows, and for all other sinful men. Simply by chanting the holy name of Lord Visnu, such sinful persons may attract the attention of the Supreme Lord, who therefore considers, "Because this man has chanted My holy name, My duty is to give him protection." Do not repeat holy name. They repeat holy name? It is a shame. "One who chants the holy name of the Lord is immediately freed from the reactions of unlimited sins, even if he chants indirectly (to indicate something else), jokingly, for musical entertainment, or even neglectfully. This is accepted by all the learned scholars of the scriptures." "It is a shame" accepted by all the learned scholars of the scriptures? "I offer my respectful obeisances unto the Supreme Lord, Hari, the congregational chanting of whose holy names destroys all sinful reactions, and the offering of obeisances unto whom relieves all material suffering." "Raising His arms, chanting the holy name and looking upon all with deep love, He drives away all sins and floods everyone with love of Godhead. "By performing congregational chanting of the Hare Krsna mantra, one can destroy the sinful condition of material existence, purify the unclean heart and awaken all varieties of devotional service. Hmm. They is guru? ---------------------- Bhakti Vidagdha Bhagawat Maharaja Your sannyasis and gurus (AT LEAST MOST OF THEM) keep the Nrisimha-Kavaca and little pendants of Lord Nrisimhadeva on their necks for protection which is clearly sakama-karma. kailasa "This prayer, Narayana-kavaca, constitutes subtle knowledge transcendentally connected with Narayana. One who employs this prayer is never disturbed or put in danger by the government, by plunderers, by evil demons or by any type of disease." "Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, His left side toward the Deity, offered obeisances to Lord Nrsimha as He proceeded toward the temple. He recited the following verses again and again while offering obeisances. I offer my respectful obeisances unto You, Lord Nrsimhadeva. You are the giver of pleasure to Maharaja Prahlada, and Your nails cut the chest of Hiranyakasipu like a chisel cutting stone. "Lord Nrsimhadeva is here, and He is also there on the opposite side. Wherever I go, there I see Lord Nrsimhadeva. He is outside and within My heart. Therefore I take shelter of Lord Nrsimhadeva, the original Supreme Personality of Godhead." Bhakti Vidagdha Bhagawat Maharaja Persons who have such tendencies cannot be counted amongst the karma-yogis. kailasa No, this devotees. They is see devotion as material? -------------------------------- Bhakti Vidagdha Bhagawat Maharaja We think that a few amongst the best are practicing karma-yoga. We have due respect for them and may be H.H. Narayana Maharaja is aware of that therefore giving such high appreciation of ISKCON, as a karma-yoga organization just to respect those few who are performing niskama-karma. kailasa It not a high appreciation, this mockery and the insult. It occurs from ignorance in a spiritual life. - Bhakti Vidagdha Bhagawat Maharaja You have also complained that H.H. Narayana Maharaja reinitiated disciples of ISKCON gurus. But do you think of it as a reinitiation or a real initiation? Those Harikesa disciples who had lost faith two or three years ago, and later took real initiation from Narayana Maharaja, was it not an intelligent move on their part? Were they ever initiated by Harikesa in the real sense of the word? kailasa That you know about Harikesa, that you know about devoted service? - Bhakti Vidagdha Bhagawat Maharaja Actually H.H. Narayana Maharaja only initiates those who are sincere spiritual seekers who have been cheated as well as those who were about to be cheated by your present G.B.C.s. So why are you so disturbed? kailasa We make this with you the same. Then you know - why are you so disturbed? Because we write on sastra, not speculation. -- Bhakti Vidagdha Bhagawat Maharaja He has never reinitiated anyone, because this term reinitiation is in itself ridiculous. kailasa It is not ridiculous. Quite probably that Sriman Narayana pupils or he want to reduce the insults to a joke. But it not jokes. Devotees should be attentive to that that have not made fools of yours - "A spiritual master who speaks wrongly, without logic, and a disciple who hears wrongly, without logic, both go to a terrible hell for a long time that seems not to end." ---------------------------- Bhakti Vidagdha Bhagawat Maharaja He has never reinitiated anyone kailasa It is lie. ---------------------------- Bhakti Vidagdha Bhagawat Maharaja Actually H.H. Narayana Maharaja only initiates those who are sincere spiritual seekers who have been cheated as well as those who were about to be cheated by your present G.B.C.s. So why are you so disturbed? kailasa I cannot understand as people can accept this mans as gurus? It is the truth that Kesava Maharaja has forbidden to initiate Narayana Prabhu? He was very wise spiritual master. ---------------------------- Bhakti Vidagdha Bhagawat Maharaja It is a true fact that Tamal Krishna Goswami and Giriraja Maharaja used to respect H.H. Narayana Maharaja as their siksa-guru. They even performed guru-puja to him many times and aratiks at the Kesavaji Gaudiya Math. How is it that they can abandon a person whom they have accepted as their siksa-guru without any apparent reason? Both of them are initiating gurus in ISKCON at the moment, kailasa Kirtanananda used to respect H.H. Narayana Maharaja too. What would happen if Kirtanananda began "acarya" ISKCON? As Srila Prabhupada knew about it, therefore He has appointed many pupils including arrogant in management GBC. He wanted to have a guarantee that NOBODY begins " single acarya ". He did not appoint them acaryas, He has told - " as acaryas ", similar acaryas. That that the some people have fallen, Srila Prabhupada knew about it, therefore He has told - " all who will deviate, should be replaced. " Very clear instruction. ISKCON it is true siksa sampradaya, therefore even if who that falls, all sincere pupils have a shelter. As if the guru does not fall that all the same ISKCON follows instruction Bhaktivinoda Thakura - " the equal relation to diksa - guru and siksa - guru - a secret of success in a spiritual life ". Sri Harinama Cintamani. It much more more the best spiritual system than to be mistaken and blindly to trust and blindly to follow unqualified gurus. ---------------------------- Bhakti Vidagdha Bhagawat Maharaja For the disciples of Tamal Krishna Maharaja H.H. Narayana Maharaja seems to be the guru of their guru, and it would be natural for them to arrange a long time program for him. Why does that disturb you so much? kailasa We are not disturbed at all. You are not disturbed? ------------------------------- Bhakti Vidagdha Bhagawat Maharaja It is a fact that I witnessed many of the ISKCON gurus and sannyasis visiting the Gaudiya-Math headquarters in Mayapura and were always welcomed as well as respected like any other Gaudiya-Math acarya. kailasa - who have been cheated as well as those who were about to be cheated by your present G.B.C.s. So why are you so disturbed? - reinitiated disciples of ISKCON gurus. But do you think of it as a reinitiation or a real initiation? - We think that a few amongst the best are practicing karma-yoga. We have due respect for them and may be H.H. Narayana Maharaja is aware of that therefore giving such high appreciation of ISKCON, as a karma-yoga organization - Tomorrow they may discover that they were cheated by Mahaprabhu when they accepted Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja as their diksa and siksa-guru. and so on ... This hypocrisy - "were always welcomed as well as respected like any other Gaudiya-Math acarya" ------------------ Bhakti Vidagdha Bhagawat Maharaja It is very immature that you are not ready to respond in the same manner. kailasa Ok, we answer in the same manner. ---------------------- Bhakti Vidagdha Bhagawat Maharaja You were very shocked because you are a disciple of Srila Swami Maharaja (as you have written) and in front of you H.H. Narayana Maharaja have said that there was an error in his book. If you do not say that it is the error of the book do you want to prove your gurudeva as a fool? ... Do you put garlands of conchshells on Krishna instead of gunja-malas? kailasa Error? His Holisnes has found mistake in Prabhupada? "He presented Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu these two items—the garland of conchshells and the stone from Govardhana Hill. "Upon receiving these two uncommon items, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu was extremely happy. While chanting, He would put the garland around His neck. "For three years He kept the stone and garland. Then, greatly satisfied by the behavior of Raghunatha dasa, the Lord delivered both of them to him. Three years Lord Caitanya has gunja in around His neck? In a pocket? At home in a locker? Three years Lord Caitanya has gunja mala in pocket? "If you do not say that it is the errors of the books do you want to prove your gurudeva as a fool?" NM is read CC? He is not read Jaiva dharma too, it is I am know this very well. Lord Caitanya carried a garland from small CONCHELLS three years and has then given her Raghunatha dasa - "By offering me the govardhana-sila, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu has offered me a place near Govardhana Hill, and by offering me the garland of conch shells, He has offered me shelter at the lotus feet of Srimati Radharani." If you do say that it is the error Prabhupada book do you want to prove your gurudeva as a fool? --------------------------- Bhakti Vidagdha Bhagawat Maharaja If you say that there are no errors in the books written by your gurudeva are you trying to say that he did not know what gunja-mala means? kailasa If you do say that it is the error Prabhupada book do you want to prove your gurudeva as a fool? He did not know what gunja-mala was on Lord Caitanya? Your guru served Radhika at this time? Told rasika histories? ---------------------------- Bhakti Vidagdha Bhagawat Maharaja In many other places there are also many mistakes , but these mistakes are only in the books. kailasa Where? ----------------------------- Bhakti Vidagdha Bhagawat Maharaja Why are you blaming H.H. Narayana Maharaja for wanting to protect the respect of your Prabhupada? kailasa Protect himself first. For that what to teach a spiritual life of others it would be necessary to have her. ---------------------------- Bhakti Vidagdha Bhagawat Maharaja ...your Prabhupada. kailasa Aparadha. Your Prabhupada... Yes, our Prabhupada. ----------------------------- Bhakti Vidagdha Bhagawat Maharaja That may be true, but you must remember most of these books came out only after ISKCON was established. kailasa For 10 000. --------------------------- Bhakti Vidagdha Bhagawat Maharaja For those who had association with your Gurudeva long before many of your G.B.C. members and acaryas were born, they certainly know your Guru better than you do. kailasa No. They do not know who Prabhupada and they do not follow Him. ------------------------- Bhakti Vidagdha Bhagawat Maharaja You are always concocting different ways to control the present situation in your society and are never consulting with the more advanced and experienced vaisnavas who can give good advice. kailasa ISKCON was take many "good advice" from more advanced and experienced vaisnavas - Kirtanananda, zonal acaryas, Jayatirtha, "remain on vyasana, acaryas can fall" , and so on. "Acaryas can fall" - yours "acaryas", experienced vaisnavas, has big experience in this theme. You try to destroy GBC because GBC makes ISKCON steady. Some spiritual teachers can be mistaken or operate incorrectly. But ISKCON all the same remains. It irritates you. ISKCON is not sect and consequently makes expansion and it irritates you. While devotees ISKCON were not so skilled. YOU have made everything what to put ISKCON under the control. You make all what to destroy ISKCON because ISKCON are the obvious certificate of your insult SBST. It strongly irritates you. You can be proud! Srila Prabhupada has made of you the visual aid to what results vaisnava aparadha. I heard that Bodhayan Maharaja cooperates with ISKCON. He will receive blessings. Because ISKCON it also is organization SBST. Yours gaudiya sects are not GM. -------------------------- Bhakti Vidagdha Bhagawat Maharaja Your Prabhupada had said that the "Gaudiya Math had failed", but in your writings you say that "Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura Prabhupada radically reformed the Gaudiya tradition transforming it into a global preaching mission in the modern world". Now what is the name of that mission? It is the Gaudiya Math. And who were its members that dedicated themselves to that mission? kailasa Prabhupada has real GM - "Saraswati Thakura Prabhupada radically reformed the Gaudiya tradition transforming it into a global preaching mission in the modern world". It is ISKCON, it is clear. ----------------------------- Bhakti Vidagdha Bhagawat Maharaja You must learn to appreciate their position, but unfortunately you are busy publishing books that make false propaganda against these exalted devotees. kailasa It is write Prabhupada. SP aparadha. ----------------------------- Bhakti Vidagdha Bhagawat Maharaja If it is not against your G.B.C. rule I strongly request you to read the book entitled ‘Prabhupada Saraswati Thakura' published by Mandala Media and in that way get lots of real information about the global successful preaching mission, because according to your writings the Gaudiya Math is successful. kailasa We see. --------------------------- Bhakti Vidagdha Bhagawat Maharaja Before the passing away of Srila Prabhupada Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura, he gave orders that there would only be one guru and the rest should work in a very harmonizing way as to be able to preach the message of Rupa-Raghunatha. He also said that Ananta Vasudeva will preach the message of Rupa-Raghunatha and Kunjavihari Vidyabhusana (later on Srila Bhakti Vilasa Tirtha Maharaja) will do the managing for as long as he lived and must be respected by all. A few years earlier he had written, vasudevananta dasye thakiya ta sada laha nama- "always remain in the service of Ananta Vasudeva and chant the Holy Name". kailasa Huh. Or he is lies or mistakes? ---------------------------- Bhakti Vidagdha Bhagawat Maharaja In his presence it was said that Srila Prabhupada Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura wanted all of the members of the Gaudiya Math to stay under the guidence of Ananta Vasudeva Prabhu and chant the holy name. kailasa But who do samadhi? -------------------------- Bhakti Vidagdha Bhagawat Maharaja On that basis he had been selected as the acarya of the Gaudiya Math and no one had been fighting for that post. kailasa No any fighting. Of course. --------------------------- Bhakti Vidagdha Bhagawat Maharaja Your Gurudeva was also part of the Gaudiya Math and he also did not object at that time. kailasa He live independ. ----------------------- Bhakti Vidagdha Bhagawat Maharaja Srila Ananta Vasudeva Prabhu was a brahmacari (in white dress, according to Gaudiya Math tradition only when a brahmacary accepted the vow to maintain a life-long celibacy, the acharya will offer him the saffron cloth) at that time, and afterwards when his godbrothers saw some flaws in his behavior they left his association. kailasa Oh, yes, they left his association. Yes. ---------------------- Bhakti Vidagdha Bhagawat Maharaja Srila Oudulomi Maharaja was then selected as the following acarya kailasa Yes, next acarya, good idea. ----------------------- Bhakti Vidagdha Bhagawat Maharaja After the disappearance of Srila Oudolomi Maharaja, kailasa What? Srla Maharaja disappearance? But needs next acarya ... it is good idea? ---------------------- Bhakti Vidagdha Bhagawat Maharaja Srila Bhagawata Maharaja was appointed as the next acarya kailasa Yes, good, good. Acarya, good. It is not ISKCON kanistha - adhikari it is ACARYA! Sat guru, acarya GM. ------------------------- Bhakti Vidagdha Bhagawat Maharaja and when he disappeared kailasa Huh, you brothers so it is fast work. From 4 acaryas 4 left? Huh, Prabhupada more deep thinks. --------------------------- Bhakti Vidagdha Bhagawat Maharaja Sripad Parivrajaka Maharaja was the next. There is nothing wrong with this kailasa Of course, of course. True disciples destroy all mission. ISKCON bad, yes, yes. BAD GBC. ---------------------------- Bhakti Vidagdha Bhagawat Maharaja "Did Prabhupada Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura want to appoint Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja as his successor acarya?" kailasa Yes. "Time come and HE [ACBSP] made all." Good. -------------------------- Bhakti Vidagdha Bhagawat Maharaja If not, did he try to become more than his guru? kailasa He is follow His guru. More simple, needs simply follow. ------------------------- Bhakti Vidagdha Bhagawat Maharaja All of these are your questions , can you answer them? kailasa Yes. ----------------------- Bhakti Vidagdha Bhagawat Maharaja You may say that Srila Swami Maharaja inspired so many people to come to Krishna Consciousness and that proves that he was the successor of his guru. kailasa Yes, but not only this. He is write spiritual books for training yours GM. ------------------------- Bhakti Vidagdha Bhagawat Maharaja In that argument one may say that H.H. Narayana Maharaja is also inspiring so many of your godbrothers and godsisters to follow him, which proves that he is a self revealed successor of your Prabhupada. Then why are you so disturbed? kailasa Srila Prabhupada do not steal, He is preach. It is not good compare ordinary guru with great acarya. Aparadha. ------------------------- Bhakti Vidagdha Bhagawat Maharaja You have said that you will ask your gurudeva why he did not promote Narayana Maharaja as the next acarya, but will you ask him why he engaged such persons as Kirtanananda, Bhavananda, Bhagavan and four other persons as G.B.C.s ? kailasa They is follow. They be more are successful than Ananta Vasudeva. You truly think at Prabhupada there was nobody except for Kirtanananda, Bhavananda, Bhagavan and Narayana. What to do? -------------------------- Bhakti Vidagdha Bhagawat Maharaja Do you think that your godbrothers and godsisters are blindly following H.H. Narayana Maharaja, or would you rather they follow people like Kirtanananda and the other six G.B.C.s because they were appointed by your gurudeva as leaders of ISKCON? kailasa Kirtananada has devotion for Prabhupada, he is innocent, he is not so big demon. Of him wanted to make big demon, but has failed. Now ask who it wanted to make? ------------------------ Bhakti Vidagdha Bhagawat Maharaja In it you say that H.H. Narayana Maharaja has deviated from the line of Srila Prabhupada Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura. kailasa Yes. --------------------- Bhakti Vidagdha Bhagawat Maharaja Do you believe that what he preaches is outside of the line of Srila Prabhupada? kailasa Yes. ----------------------- Bhakti Vidagdha Bhagawat Maharaja 1. The maha-mantra in ISKCON is always sung as a full mantra. You can never chant it half and then the other half. It is clearly coming from the idea of the babajis and other groups that entered the Gaudiya Mission (i. e. Puri Goswami or Srila Ananta Vasudeva Prabhu and Srila Audolomi Maharaja's line) and your Gurudeva taught you to follow in their footsteps. If you say that they deviated does that mean that your Gurudeva took ideas from deviated persons? kailasa Oh, oh. Yes we chant all mantra. Our gurudeva come from gaura lila and chant as Lord Caitanya. ------------------------- Bhakti Vidagdha Bhagawat Maharaja 2. Keeping peacock feathers on Mahaprabhu can only be seen in the temple established by Srila Ananta Vasudeva Prabhu (Puri dasa mahasaya) at Radha-Kunda and in prominent gauranga-nagari sampradayas or one of the thirteen pseoudo-sects. We can clearly see this in the temples established by Srila Swami Maharaja. Where has this come from? kailasa Huh. Sooo big arguments. ISKCON cry he is completely defeat. ------------------------ Bhakti Vidagdha Bhagawat Maharaja 3. Srila Prabhupada Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura clearly said that Adwaita Acarya Prabhu never had a beard and used to keep clean shaven. But the bauls (one of the thirteen apasampradayas) wanted to make him a baul and put a beard on his face. On the Deities at the Yoga-Pitha or Srivas Angan as well as any other Gaudiya Math temple you will never find a beard on Adwaita Acarya's face. But at the Mayapura ISKCON temple as well as other temples (in San Diego and Hawaii) we can see Adwaita Acarya with a beard. Will you say that your Gurudeva was following the bauls? kailasa Prabhupada - "Just get him to a barber and clean, clean-shaven." According to the Caitanya Mahaprabhu's sampradaya, they keep themselves clean-shaven. And only single instance is there, Advaita Prabhu. He had his beard. And Caitanya Mahaprabhu never asked Him to cleanse. Because one reason is that Advaita Prabhu was just contemporary to His father, so He did not like to dictate. But otherwise, all His disciples, they were clean-shaved." What do? "Yes, if you like, you can also arrange for costumes and wig; one boy may be dressed as Lord Caitanya, another as Nityananda, as well as Gadadhara, Advaita with white beard and Srivasa with shaven head. " White beard, He is has white beard Prabhu. -------------------------- Bhakti Vidagdha Bhagawat Maharaja 4. One prominent disciple of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura gave the brahma-gayatri to a lady disciple. Srila Prabhupada later wrote an article in the weekly Gaudiya entitled bhai-sahajiya (brother sahajiya). Most recently the Santikunja at Haridwara was preaching that anyone can get the brahma-gayatri initiation. Can I simply ask you from which line your gurudeva get the idea of initiating lady disciples into the brahma-gayatri? kailasa "O son of Patha, those who take shelter in Me, though they be of lower birth–women, vaisyas [merchants], as well as cudras [workers]–can approach the supreme destination." "If one actually wants to serve Krsna, it doesn't matter whether one is a sudra, vaisya, or even a woman. If one is sincerely eager to chant the Hare Krsna mantra or diksa-mantra, he is qualified to be initiated according to the paicaratrika process. According to Vedic principles, only a brahmana who is fully engaged in his occupational duties can be initiated. Cudras and women are not admitted to a vaidika initiation. Unless one is fit according to the estimation of the spiritual master, one cannot accept a mantra from the paicaratrika-vidhi or the vaidika-vidhi. When one is fit to accept the mantra, he is initiated by the paicaratrika-vidhi or the vaidika-vidhi. In any case, the result is the same." ------------------------------ Bhakti Vidagdha Bhagawat Maharaja 5. The chanting of the Panca-Tattva mantra at the beginning of each round does not come from Srila Prabhupada, he taught his disciples to chant it in a different way. From where did your Prabhupada get this? kailasa Lord Caitanya. ------------------------------- Bhakti Vidagdha Bhagawat Maharaja Srila B.R. Sridhara Maharaja and your gurudeva established his world headquarters of ISKCON in that part of Mayapura, which was not accepted by his gurudeva but was revealed by his godbrother. Why could not he take Srila Prabhupada straight? kailasa Because ... this - small canal called gurgure (just before one approaches the Yoga-Pitha temple this - near the confluence of the Ganga and Saraswati rivers and this - Ishodyan - All will be ground Lord Caitanya. Srila Prabhuopada do not consider birth place as most important. He is write - place games, most important as place birth. And - where Lord Caitanya - it is Vrindavan. Not know? Strangly. -- Bhakti Vidagdha Bhagawat Maharaja We like that system and also appreciate it, but our question is - from where did your gurudeva learn this kind of worship? Did he take siksa from the caste goswamis? kailasa No, He is trained gosvamis in time Lord Caitanya. More simply. Real Gosvamis it is disciples Srila Prabhuapada. - Bhakti Vidagdha Bhagawat Maharaja Srila B.H. Bon Maharaja this was seen before. We are not criticizing him because we know that he is an exalted vaisnava. He was a qualified acarya and has the right to introduce any musical instrument into his temple. kailasa He is not acarya, but Prabhupada acarya. - Bhakti Vidagdha Bhagawat Maharaja 9. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura instructed us to worship Sri Sri Guru Gauranga-Gandharvika-Giridhari . In all the temples established by him we find Sriman Mahaprabhu and Sri Sri Radha-Krsna. The mangala-arati and other arati songs specifically written by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura and Srila Prabhupada follow in their footsteps. Whereas in your ISKCON temples there are different combinations of Deities and different kinds of songs are recommended for mangal-aratik which are not considered as mangal-aratik songs. Do you think this is a deviation or not? kailasa It is next step. Prabhupada established worship Lord Caitanya in full image. --- Bhakti Vidagdha Bhagawat Maharaja 10. Srila Prabhupada ordered his disciples to print and distribute books of the previous acaryas and specially those of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura. He did not write many books himself because he thought it unnecessary, whereas you clearly state that your gurudeva instructed you to print, publish and read his books only. Does that mean that he thought that the books of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura are less valuable than his? kailasa SBT start preaching, then He is write for beginners. Srila Prabhupada write books in pure mood Lord Caitanya - Gaura vani. All spiritual science absolute. ------ Bhakti Vidagdha Bhagawat Maharaja 11. Srila Prabhupada or his disciples never recommended a new devotee to chant Harinama on a mala without being properly initiated by a guru. According to the commentary by Srila Viswanatha Cakravarti Thakura, on Srimad Bhagavatam Sixth Canto (the case of Ajamila) it will only generate a great offense (gurvava jna). Your Prabhupada began this in ISKCON. Where did this idea come from? kailasa diksa-purascarya-vidhi apeksa na kare jihva-sparse a-candala sabare uddhare "One does not have to undergo initiation or execute the activities required before initiation. One simply has to vibrate the holy name with his lips. Thus, even a man in the lowest class [candala] can be delivered." ------------------------------ Bhakti Vidagdha Bhagawat Maharaja Many times young Western ladies used to serve him including to cut his hair, but we do not dare criticize him for this behavior because we know that he was elderly and the girls were old enough to be his granddaughters and besides he was in such an elevated consciousness that there was no chance of him being affected by sensual desires. H.H. Narayana Maharaja is also at that age and if he is following the footsteps of your Prabhupada why does that bother you? This European lady whom you say is your reliable source of information found this tableau filled with eroticism because there is one logic-- kamuka pasyanti kamini mayam jagat. "A lustful person sees the whole world as full of lust". By falsely accusing H.H. Narayana Maharaja, you are accusing your own Gurudeva. kailasa Narayana Svami like massage from mataji? There is no difference between a hairstyle of hair and some massage? ANY person goes in a hairdressing saloon and receives a hairstyle from the woman. There is no difference between a hairstyle of hair and some tableau filled with eroticism ? Bhakti Vidagdha Bhagawat Maharaja This European lady whom you say is your reliable source of information found this tableau filled with eroticism because there is one logic-- kamuka pasyanti kamini mayam jagat. kailasa But pure devotee the madhurya rasa everywhere sees? So it is true? -------------------------------- Bhakti Vidagdha Bhagawat Maharaja His Mayapura Dham, his process of Deity worship, his nama-sankirtan, his book publications, his personal conducts, his Deity installations, his process of initiating disciples all differs from his Gurudeva. We cannot know the cause how it happened, but do you want to say that he is not a bonafide siksa or diksa disciple of his Gurudeva or not in a direct line from him?. kailasa It is line gurudeva. Srila Prabhupada is ACARYA. He is come for establish worship Lord. ----------------------------- Bhakti Vidagdha Bhagawat Maharaja Then how can you deny H.H. Narayana Maharaja's claim as the successor of your Prabhupada, only because his teachings differ from him? kailasa He is deforms vaisnava philosophy. You write some external things, but more internal ------------------------- Bhakti Vidagdha Bhagawat Maharaja You say that Narayana Maharaja has no attraction for the Gita, but have you seen the beautiful edition of Bhagavad-Gita with Hindi translations and commentaries by Srila Viswanatha Cakravarti Thakura, as well as other profound commentaries by H.H. Narayana Maharaja himself? kailasa Secret Gita? Never see. ------------------------ Bhakti Vidagdha Bhagawat Maharaja If he has no taste for the Gita then why has he bothered to give such nice presentation and commentaries? kailasa We do not know it is deep secret. ----------------------- Bhakti Vidagdha Bhagawat Maharaja Srila Prabhupada Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura expressed his desire to publish the authentic commentaries of the higher topics of the Srimad Bhagavatam such as Gopi-Gita and Bhramara-Gita. He said, "Still now we are saying this is not so. Now we must speak this is like that, we should not read the commentaries of Gopi-gita and Bhramara-gita written by the prakrita-sahajiyas kailasa Yes, we do not read. ------------------ Bhakti Vidagdha Bhagawat Maharaja Our Gurudeva Om Visnupada 108 Sri Srimad Bhakti Pramode Puri Goswami Maharaja considers him to be the best weapon to resist the misconceptions of the so-called babajis of Radha-Kunda kailasa Yours gurudev speak you follow NM? ---------------------- Bhakti Vidagdha Bhagawat Maharaja Nobody dares to come near him. Do you think that any of your ISKCON gurus can do this? kailasa NM is babaji man, He is preach glory Ananta babaji Maharaja. What for him to battle with HH Narayana Maharaja? He is worshop NM because first people go in NM second ABM. --------------------- Bhakti Vidagdha Bhagawat Maharaja First of all you have quoted that your Prabhupada has said, "Book distribution is in the mood of the Gopis" kailasa Yes, if you distribution, then you be gopi or you eternal form. -------------------- Bhakti Vidagdha Bhagawat Maharaja You do not want to distribute books at the stage of ultimate attainment, but desire another kind of face to face service to God. kailasa You do not has any face to face. Ultimate attainment so many empti words. Go in street raganuga. --------------------------- Bhakti Vidagdha Bhagawat Maharaja Doesn't that mean that your means and goals are not the same? kailasa The same. --------------------------- Bhakti Vidagdha Bhagawat Maharaja You yourself have agreed that book distribution is not the ultimate goal or eternal bhakti . kailasa No, it is ultimate goal or eternal bhakti. Glory Lord it is ultimate goal or eternal bhakti. It is eternal spiritual activities. Holy name it is eternal. ----------------------------- Bhakti Vidagdha Bhagawat Maharaja Then this can be called bhaktyabhasa or bhaktya ropa but never real bhakti, because it is a temporary seva and not like sravanam and kirtanam which are eternal. kailasa It is eternal kirtanam it is not bla-bla. Raganuga - bla - bla - rupanuga - bla - bla - rasika - bla - bla - gopi - bla - bla - empty sound. ---- Bhakti Vidagdha Bhagawat Maharaja If you are going to do this you may as well accuse Srila Gaurakisora Dasa Babaji Maharaja as well as Srila Jagannatha Dasa Babaji Maharaja because they never went out on the streets to sell books due to the fact that they were in the mood of the Gopis. kailasa They follow Lord Caitanya - not yours sahajya. ------ Bhakti Vidagdha Bhagawat Maharaja Such offenses will bring utter ruin in your spiritual life as has happened to many of your godbrothers already. kailasa About himself worry. Those fall who rise. Those who at the bottom it simply is no place to fall. ----- Bhakti Vidagdha Bhagawat Maharaja It seems that you are confused with the instructions of your guru and are unable to harmonize them in your heart. kailasa We? confused? No. ------------------------- Bhakti Vidagdha Bhagawat Maharaja I humbly suggest you to choose some realized sadhu to clear up your doubts rather than offend H.H. Narayana Maharaja. If you do not like to go to him that's fine but you have no right to stop those who want to go and receive instructions or initiations from him. kailasa ALL who want go from ISKCON. All, no any problem. -------------------------- Bhakti Vidagdha Bhagawat Maharaja Right now seven out of eleven guides do not even exist or are in proper standard according to your G.B.C. rules. Who knows maybe after a few years you will pass the same judgment on Satsvarupa Maharaja, kailasa Satsvarupa Maharaja nice guru, He is follow Prabhupada. You do not make NOTHING. You work only for himself. Yours organisations do not open, it is sects. We do not know nothing about you. Yours gurus too fall down but you hide this. ISKCON open, ISKCON work, it is real spiritual organisations. If we take all yours gurus, all yours gurus more less as Harikesa Prabhu. -------------------------- Bhakti Vidagdha Bhagawat Maharaja by then H.H. Narayana Maharaja may not be physically present and thus the devotees will be forever deprived of his direct association. kailasa We read, we not has any desire go in this side. ---------------------------- Bhakti Vidagdha Bhagawat Maharaja Which fool will want to depend on your words? kailasa Your words do not prove to be true sastra. Only the fool will follow you. ----------------------------- Bhakti Vidagdha Bhagawat Maharaja Do you rely on your own self? kailasa Guru - sadhu - sastra. -------------------------------- Bhakti Vidagdha Bhagawat Maharaja Our Guru-Maharaja has said openly that Narayana Maharaja is a sad guru and a rasika bhakta. kailasa Puri maharaja, who left? He is make many criticism NM. He has told that those who reinitiation will go to a hell. In ANY CASE we shall follow for sastra and acarya. --------------------------- Bhakti Vidagdha Bhagawat Maharaja H.H.Narayana Maharaja, still I never dare to stop someone from taking instructions or initiations from him. kailasa It is yours choise, all take results own choice. Be men. Your guru offends ISKCON quite openly. Why you against that that ISKCON would specify another your dishonest politics? Why it disturbs you? ----------------------------- Bhakti Vidagdha Bhagawat Maharaja person of a devotee who has been practicing Krishna Consciousness for over 50 years without faltering once, kailasa "without faltering once, " Politics which has got confused in the own speeches. ---------------------------- Bhakti Vidagdha Bhagawat Maharaja On the other hand your G.B.C. who had never heard krishna-nama before 1966 and whose future is uncertain is qualified to do so? kailasa Many devotees heard holy name before 1966. If you do not know that what for so write? --------------------------- Bhakti Vidagdha Bhagawat Maharaja In fact you are scared of the Gadiya Math preachers, specially those who are born in Bharata- Bhumi (India). kailasa Oh very dangers preachers. Very 1. The maha-mantra in ISKCON is always sung as a full mantra. 2. Keeping peacock feathers on Mahaprabhu 3. Adwaita Acarya Prabhu never had a beard... and so on -------------------------------- Bhakti Vidagdha Bhagawat Maharaja My humble request to you is that you please give up such useless effort to engage in the copyrights to initiate innocent devotees. Rather let us try to follow the last instruction of Srila Prabhupada Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura. "All of you preach in a harmoniest way the teachings of Rupa and Raghunatha with great enthusiasm." kailasa Follow, all world in yours foots. All world for big rasika preachers. All russian - go, preach. He is has brain? ISKCON close world roads? Needs understand mood Rupa Gosvami first. Big preachres. - Bhakti Vidagdha Bhagawat Maharaja haribol@sol.racsa.co.cr kailasa Ok, I am send answer. ---------------------------- Srila Prabhupada - We are asking, following the footsteps of predecessor, Rupa Gosvami, Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Caitanya Mahaprabhu's instruction to Rupa Gosvami. Rupanuga. Therefore we are called rupanuga. Anuga. Anuga means following. Going, following the footsteps of Rupa Gosvami. So as the, Rupa Gosvame is following his predecessor, Caitanya Mahaprabhu, so we have to follow our predecessor. Then we will be successful. There is no doubt about it. Nobody can do any harm. If you stick to the principle of following the footsteps of previous predecessor, evam parampara-praptam, don't add anything, don't subtract anything, present as it is and keep your spiritual strength intact, then the preaching will go on. Nobody can disturb you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 21, 2004 Report Share Posted October 21, 2004 Bhakti Vidagdha Bhagawat Maharaja It is a true fact that Tamal Krishna Goswami and Giriraja Maharaja used to respect H.H. Narayana Maharaja as their siksa-guru. They even performed guru-puja to him many times and aratiks at the Kesavaji Gaudiya Math. How is it that they can abandon a person whom they have accepted as their siksa-guru without any apparent reason? Both of them are initiating gurus in ISKCON at the moment, kailasa Kirtanananda used to respect H.H. Narayana Maharaja too. --- please answer better...explain why tamalkrsna maharaja and giriraja maharaka took siksa, performed guru puja etc.... abandon etc... --- --- "kailasa Kirtananada has devotion for Prabhupada, he is innocent, he is not so big demon. Of him wanted to make big demon, but has failed. Now ask who it wanted to make?" --- kirtanananda not a demon? -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kailasa Posted October 21, 2004 Report Share Posted October 21, 2004 kailasa Kirtanananda used to respect H.H. Narayana Maharaja too. --- please answer better...explain why tamalkrsna maharaja and giriraja maharaka took siksa, performed guru puja etc.... abandon etc... --- They do guru puja and for Kirtananada. And what? Kirtananada "His Holisness"? --- "kailasa Kirtananada has devotion for Prabhupada, he is innocent, he is not so big demon. Of him wanted to make big demon, but has failed. Now ask who it wanted to make?" --- kirtanananda not a demon? He is small demon, he is innocent. He do some bad matherial things, but it is not so danger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kailasa Posted October 21, 2004 Report Share Posted October 21, 2004 It adress do not work - haribol@sol.racsa.co.cr Some know his adress? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 21, 2004 Report Share Posted October 21, 2004 Kailasa, You have confused bhakti with institutional loyalty. http://kundali.vaisnavi.com/index.htm Expand your awareness or keep believing what the gbc tells you to think. EDITORIAL 09/19/1998 - 2250 The Mental Prison Of The Institution Editorial (VNN) - by Atulananda das Reply To Rasananda Swami Please excuse me for not having responded earlier to Rasananda Swami. I have only just received his letter. Rasananda Swami says that one has done wrong to leave ISKCON, that Srila Prabhupada's wish was that we all remain together in spite of all problems. With respect to this, I believe it is important to define what ISKCON is. To me, ISKCON is not the GBC. To me, ISKCON is the instruction and the example left my Srila Prabhupada. I am not a disciple of today's ISKCON, but of Prabhupada. ISKCON means the science of Krsna, sanatan dharma. It is an eternal and universal principal. ISKCON belongs not only to the disciples of Prabhupada but to all the pure devotees of Krsna, because, in truth, ISKCON is not an institution, it is a state of consciousness. Srila Prabhupada does not belong to an institution, he belongs to Krsna, to his guru and to the pure Vaisnavas. He does not belong to a little group of GBC neophytes that go to study with the karmis, and boast of their power, money and influence. It seems, Rasananda Swami, that you have forgotten the things that have taken place and that are now taking place. It is a great offense to Prabhupada to say that your ISKCON is Prabhupada. To me, it is the farthest thing from Prabhupada that exists. As Tripurari Maharaj nicely puts it, you are left with the body of Prabhupada, but not with his spirit. Rasananda Swami quotes a letter where Srila Prabhupada asks that his disciples not leave the ISKCON family. Of course, who would ever want to leave the beautiful family that Prabhupada left us? This is why we speak and also suffer, seeing how this family has been destroyed by a few MEGALOMANOS who believed that they were the proprietor of Gurudeva, his teachings, his temples and his disciples. As Paramadvaiti Maharaj has said: "They had to throw us out. We would have never left. They threw us out of ISKCON because we wanted to help it change." Prabhupad Bhaktisiddhanta also wished that in his absence the preaching would continue in an organized way among his disciples. Yet, some of them failed to do so and began to fight over the buildings. Prabhupada left them, as did Srila Sridhar Maharaj and many others who began their own preaching missions and continued serving their Guru. They did not feel the need to remain in the middle of politics and interrogations. They decided that the nectar should be distributed, and politics abandoned. When Prabhupada left, I saw, throughout the following seven years, his teachings and his example being misrepresented. There was much to tolerate to conserve this supposed union of leaders who didn't want to have anything to do with their servants and friends, and who threw them out on the streets for no reason. And what's worse is that one should not maintain the company of people who offend pure devotees, as this leads to ruin. Srila Prabhupada did not obligate anyone to follow him blindly, or the GBC, or anyone else. Many devotees worked for Srila Prabhupada directly. Many times, however, the GBC came across as an administrative group which had the power to control even Srila Prabhupada. The GBC never knew how to interpret the wishes of Srila Prabhupada. The GBC destroyed the service of the temple presidents. Srila Prabhupada wanted the GBC to assess and inspire the presidents, but instead they became manipulators and despots. Srila Prabhupada wanted the GBC to be elected by the temple presidents and that they remain in their position while the presidents elected the members. Prabhupada never obligated us to serve thieves, lazy men or unqualified persons. Srila Prabhupada says that a symptom of Kali yuga is the incapacity to recognize a person by their qualifications. In kaliyuga, people with superficial vision are taken away by titles and ecclesiastic positions and take a brahma-bhandu for a genuine brahmana. Rasananda Swami sites a letter from Srila Prabhupada that wasn't even signed by him. The letter is from 1974, but everyone knows that Srila Prabhupada, just before departing, asked forgiveness from his spiritual brothers for any offense that he might have committed, and he invited all of them to preach around the world. "The war is over" he said to Srila Puri Maharaj in 1977. I am more for the union that for disunion, Rasananda Swami. Srila Prabhupada writes in the Srimad Bhagavatam 4.28.31 purport: "Among Vaisnavas there may be some differences of opinion due to everyone's personal identity, but despite all personal differences, the cult of Krsna consciousness must go on. We can see that under the instruction of Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Goswami Maharaja began preaching the Krsna consciousness movement in an organized way within the past hundred years. The disciples of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Goswami Maharaja ARE ALL GOD BROTHERS, and although there are some differences of opinion, and although we are not acting conjointly, EVERYONE OF US is spreading this Krsna consciousness movement according to his own capacity and PRODUCING MANY DISCIPLES TO SPREAD IT ALL OVER THE WORLD. The cult of Krsna consciousness... will never be stopped. It will go on, WITHOUT DISTINCTION of caste, CREED, color or country. No one can check it." c. Bhaktivedanta Book Trust, 1976. Prabhu Srila Das also reminds us in his article "Don't suppress Sadhu Sanga:Prabhupada's last statements and actions on the subject, however, reversed the previous trend, and as such, should be taken as final: "The war is over." (spoken to Srila Puri Maharaja, 1977) "We want cooperation." (conversation to Jayapataka Swami about the BVS Charity Trust, 1977) His invitation to Srila Sridhara Maharaja to become president of ISKCON and reside at his projected new home in Mayapur, (1977) Prabhupada also recommended us to approach Srila BR Sridhara Maharaja for advice. (conversation 1977) Finally, his conveying to Srila Narayan Maharaja the request of forgiveness for any offenses he might have made to his god brothers. (conversation, Nov, 1977). "Gentlemen, the offering of such a homage as has been arranged this evening to the Acaryadeva is not a sectarian concern, for when we speak of the fundamental principle of Gurudeva or Acaryadeva, we speak of something that is universal application. There does not arise any question of discriminating my guru from yours or anyone else's. There is only one guru who appears in an infinity of forms to teach you, me and all others." (ASBSP, Vyasa Puja Offering Feb. 1936)." All of this allows us to see that Srila Prabhupada was not a fanatic or sectarian person with his eyes on his institution alone. If we accept that he is Jagat Guru, we should recognize his universal love and that his instructions and love are not limited to the walls of temples that created during his physical presence in this world. Rasananda Swami also quotes another letter where Srila Prabhupada says that if one contemplates serving Krsna outside of ISKCON, it is a kind of hallucination. This is logical. If a devotee says to me that he wants to serve Krsna outside of his guru's mission, than he is under some type of hallucination. It is a fact that one needs devotees to serve Krsna, and so, at the time, ISKCON was the only thing there was and, besides, Srila Prabhupada was present on this planet. A disciple has the duty to serve his guru but not his spiritual brothers, much less so when they have become superficial and Vaisnava offenders. Rasananda Swami says that nowhere does Srila Prabhupada say that one needs a higher authority to understand his books and that there is no need for a genuine diksa guru because Srila Prabhupada is the siksa. Any reader of Srila Prabhupada books knows that in many passages he states that the Srimad Bhagavatam should be read at the feet of a pure devotee. In addition, the siksa guru is a guide who should be present, an external representative of Krsna who guides us externally, directly, clearly and immediately. There is a difference between guru and shastra, when the guru leaves his body, his written works come to be sastra, and to understand them one needs guru. Rasananda Swami wants to eliminate the guru, which is nothing new in ISKCON. He wants to remove guru and remain with the problems. ISKCON, as has Rasananda Swami, has lost the vision of the importance of the Vaisnavas. Because of this, they are straying towards ritvik concepts and becoming aparadhis. Prabhupad Bhaktisiddhanta prevented many pseudo followers of Thakur Bhaktivinode from falling in the same way by thinking themselves capable of understanding his books without seeking out a pure devotee: "The personal service of the pure devotee is essential for understanding the spiritual meaning of the words of Thakur Bhaktivinode. The Editor of this Journal, originally started by Thakur Bhaktivinode, has been trying to draw the attention of all followers of Thakur Bhaktivinode to this all-important point of his teachings. It is not necessary to try to place ourselves on a footing of equality with Thakur Bhaktivinode... "Thakur Bhaktivinode is acknowledged by all his sincere followers as possessing the above powers of the pure devotee of Godhead. His words have to be received from the lips of a pure devotee. If his words are listened to from the lips of a non-devotee they will certainly deceive. If his works are studied in the light of one's own worldly experience their meaning will refuse to disclose itself to such readers. His works belong to the class of the eternal revealed literature of the world and must be approached for their right understanding through their exposition by the pure devotee. If no help from the pure devotee is sought, the works of Thakur Bhaktivinode will be grossly misunderstood by their readers. The attentive reader of those works will find that he is always directed to throw himself upon the mercy of the pure devotee if he is not to remain unwarrantably self-satisfied by the deluding results of his wrong method of study..." Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, The Harmonist, December 1931, vol. XXIX No.6 Rasananda Swami says that there are problems in all institutions. This is a fact. I do not look for institutions, nor do I shun problems, but I do look for pure devotees who can help me resolve them. Rasananda Swami represents the face of ISKCON quite well; without sentiment or respect for other Vaisnavas. He thinks that I take advantage of ISKCON's situation. This is not so. I feel obliged to present the truth, that is all. In ISKCON, any manifestation of affection towards other devotees is seen as sahajiya and in this way the institution based on love and trust that Srila Prabhupada created, has transformed into a monstrosity of laws, with a GBC who doesn't even know one another and who meet a few days a year to fix the lives of a series of strangers, for whom they have no real interest. Another thing, beloved devotees, maybe you will not like this very much, but I believe that you do not dare to think for yourselves and do not resort to common sense. Prabhupada did not expect such things from us. As a response to my letter I have only received a fanatic threat declaring that "Krsna is only in ISKCON." And that "There is only truth and purity in ISKCON." This is what Sridhar Maharaj called "the mental prison of the institution." But in the end, my friend, Rasananda Swami, this is a question of internal inspiration. Krsna directs our paths. My letter was designated to those who are looking for a way out, to those who feel suffocated in this structure called ISKCON, where one hears more about suffering that about happiness; more about norms and edicts than spiritual realizations. Atulanada das. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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