Guest guest Posted October 22, 2004 Report Share Posted October 22, 2004 I was reading at a website of an ex iskcon guy from back in the 60's recently. While he was in India he became involved with other traditions within the Chaitanya school. He concluded that the power of a mantra is only present when it is received within a chain of gurus, anyone outside that chain who doesn't receive the mantra from that succession is receiving a dead mantra. In other words he claims, as I guess many others do outside of the Gaudiya school, that if you attempt to connect to God through a mantra, God will not respond to that endeavor unless you received that mantra from baba booie such and such, who in turn received it from his guru baba louie and on and on. . . . You Can't Manufacture a Mantra Srila Prabhupada: Evam parampara-praptam: In this way, by disciplic succession, the knowledge is coming down. Sa kaleneha mahata yogo nastah parantapa: But in the course of time the succession was broken. Therefore, Krishna says, I am speaking it to you again. So a mantra should be received from the disciplic succession. The Vedic injunction is sampradaya-vihina ye mantras te nisphala matah. If your mantra does not come through the disciplic succession, it will not be effective. Mantras te nisphala. Nisphala means that it will not produce the desired result. So the mantra must be received through the proper channel, or it will not act. A mantra cannot be manufactured. It must come from the original Supreme Absolute, coming down through the channel of disciplic succession. It has to be received in that way, and only then will it act. According to our Krishna consciousness philosophy, the mantra is coming down through four channels of disciplic succession: one through Lord Siva, one through the goddess Laksmi, one through Lord Brahma, and one through the four Kumaras. The same thing comes down through different channels. These are called the four sampradayas, or disciplic successions. So, one has to take his mantra from one of these four sampradayas; then only is that mantra active. If we receive the mantra in that way, it will be effective. And if one does not receive his mantra through one of these sampradaya channels, then it will not act; it will not give fruit. Yoko Ono: If the mantra itself has such power, does it matter where you receive it, where you take it? Srila Prabhupada: Yes, it does matter. For instance, milk is nutritious. That's a fact; everyone knows. But if milk is touched by the lips of a serpent, it is no longer nutritious. It becomes poisonous. Yoko Ono: Well, milk is material. Srila Prabhupada: Yes, it is material. But since you are trying to understand spiritual topics through your material senses, we have to give material examples. Yoko Ono: Well, no, I don't think you have to give me the material sense. I mean, the mantra is not material. It should be something spiritual; therefore, I don't think anybody should be able to spoil it. I wonder if anybody can actually spoil something that isn't material. Srila Prabhupada: But if you don't receive the mantra through the proper channel, it may not really be spiritual. John Lennon: How would you know, anyway? How are you able to tell? I mean, for any of your disciples or us or anybody else who goes to any spiritual master how are we to tell if he's for real or not? Srila Prabhupada: You shouldn't go to just any spiritual master. **************************************** His divine Grace Srila Bhakti Ballabha Tirtha Maharaja once remarked that if someone chants the sampradaya mantra, but does not hear it from the lips of a sad guru, then the result is like spending counterfeit money. **************************************** Srila Rupa Gosvami gave us 64 angas of bhakti. The second is: Sri Krsna-diksa-siksadi (Reeiving initiation and spiritual instructions). " In the Bhakti-sandarbha, Anuccheda 283, Srila Jiva Gosvami has explained the meaning of divy-jnana in the following words: divya jnanam hy atra mantre bhavat-svarupa jnanam tena bhagavata sambhandha-visesa jnananca--"Divya-jnana is transcendental knowledge contained within a mantra which reveals the form and identity of the Supreme Lord (bhagavata svarupa) as well as the knowledge of the sadhaka-jiva's particular realationship with the Lord." . . . This mahamantra, composed of the names of Sri Krsna, is so astonishingly powerful and accessible that it yields fruit as soon as it touches the tongue. Because it attracts even liberated souls who are purified at heart and whose desires are fully satiated, this mantra is supreme in its power of subjugation. . . Unlike other mantras, the chanting of this mahamantra is not dependent on receiving diksa froma guru, moral conduct or prepatory rites. Srila Jiva gosvami, in discussing this topic in the Bhakti-sandharba (283) has said that in spite of the statements in the sastras as to the autonomous potency of the holy name, the previous mahajanas such as Sri Narada and so on first accepted diksa from their gurudeva and then performed their sadhana and bhajana in worship of their istadeva (the beloved deity of their heart). Similarly, those who desire to follow in the footsteps of those mahapurusas must also accept diksa into the bhagavad-mantra from Sri Gurudeva, because without accepting diksa, one's relationship with Bhagavan as dasya, sakya and so on cannot be awakened. That relationship is established only by the lotus feet of Sri Guru. The custom of diks was honored by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and His followers, the gosvamis. It is prevalent even today in their followers. Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura has clearly said that those persons who have abanadoned the pursuits of karma-yoga, jnana-yoga, japa, tapa, and other processes of sadhana, who have accepted Bhagavan as their istadeva and whoa re engaed in sravana, kirtana, and smarana of bhagavan-nama, but who have not accepted diksa from a Vaisnava guru according to the Vaisnava regulations, cannot attain the Supreme Lord. they will merely be prevented from entering hell, or in their next birth, by the influence of the bhajana performed from the previous life, they will obtain sadhu-sanga. By then taking shelter of the lotus feet of a guru, receiving diksa form him and making advancement through the different stages of bhakti, they can attain the Supreme Lord." Bhakti Ramamrta-sindhu-bindu pp.51-52 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 22, 2004 Report Share Posted October 22, 2004 Well you have your way of thinking and I have mine. The person I was refering to had said that Bhaktisiddhanta was not giving out a living mantra because his initiation was not done in the right way, by the right person. Which in turn meant all of his disciples were not connected to Krishna as well. I disagreed with him and sided with Bhaktisiddhanta. My point was and still remains that the mantra does not have to be personally handed to you by a specific person in a specific way, you can get the mantra from a book, for instance. When I started chanting it was effective even though I was not initiated, and I had receieved the mantra through Prabhupadas books, instead of being initiated by a caste goswami in Calcutta. That was my point. If you want to preach that the maha mantra received in a way other then a diksa ceremony, will be ineffective, go ahead, but I'm stickin with my version ...and all of these things, and things of this nature. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 22, 2004 Report Share Posted October 22, 2004 This is what Jiva Goswami says in Bhakti Sandarbha 238: "The substance of all the Vedic mantras is the chanting of the holy name of the Lord. Every mantra begins with the prefix nama Om and eventually addresses by name the Supreme Personality of Godhead. By the supreme will of the Lord there is a specific potency in each and every mantra chanted by great sages like Narada Muni and other rsis. Chanting the holy name of the Lord immediately renovates the transcendental relationship of the living being with the Supreme Lord. To chant the holy name of the Lord one need not depend upon other paraphernalia, for one can immediately get all the desired results of connecting or linking with the Supreme Personality of Godhead. It may therefore be questioned why there is a necessity for further spiritual activities in devotional service for one who engages in the chanting of the holy name of the Lord. The answer is that although it is correct that one who fully engages in chanting the holy name need not depend upon the process of initiation, generally a devotee is addicted to many abominable material habits due to material contamination from his previous life. In order to get quick relief from all these contaminations, it is required that one engage in the worship of the Lord in the temple. The worship of the Deity in the temple is essential to reduce one's restlessness due to the contaminations of conditional life. Thus Narada in his pancaratriki vidhi, and other great sages have sometimes stressed that since every conditioned soul has a bodily concept of life aimed at sense enjoyment the rules and regulations for worshipping the Deity in the temple are essential." Purport by Srila Prabhupada "In other words, the chanting of the Hare Krsna maha-mantra is so powerful that it does not depend on official initiation, but if one is initiated and engages in pancaratra-vidhi (Deity worship), his Krsna consciousness will awaken very soon, and his identification with the material world will be vanquished. The more one is freed from material identification, the more one can realize that the spirit soul is qualitatively as good as the Supreme Soul. At such a time, when one is situated on the absolute platform, one can understand that the holy name of the Lord and the Lord Himself are identical. At that stage of realization, the holy name of the Lord, the Hare Krsna mantra, cannot be identified with any material sound. If one accepts the Hare Krsna maha-mantra as a material vibration, he falls down. One should worship and chant the holy name of the Lord by accepting it as the Lord Himself. One should therefore be initiated properly according to revealed scriptures under the direction of a bona fide spiritual master. Although chanting the holy name is good for both the conditioned and liberated soul, it is especially beneficial to the conditioned soul because by chanting it one is liberated. When a person who chants the holy name is liberated, he attains the ultimate perfection by returning home, back to Godhead. In the words of Sri Caitanya-caritamrta (Adi 7.73): krsna-mantra haite habe samsara-mocana krsna-nama haite pabe krsnera carana "Simply by chanting the holy name of Krsna one can obtain freedom from material existence. Indeed, simply by chanting the Hare Krsna mantra one will be able to see the lotus feet of the Lord." The offenseless chanting of the holy name does not depend on the initiation process. Although initiation may depend on purascarya or purascarana, the actual chanting of the holy name does not depend on purascarya-vidhi, or the regulative principles. If one chants the holy name even once without committing an offense, he attains all success. During the chanting of the holy name, the tongue must work. Simply by chanting the holy name, one is immediately delivered. The tongue is sevonmukha-jihva -- it is controlled by service. One whose tongue is engaged in tasting material things and also talking about them cannot use the tongue for absolute realization." Also Bhaktivinoda has said all that is needed is Krishna nama to take you to Vraja: isat vikasi punah dekhaya nija rupa guna citta hari laya krsna pasa purna vikasita hana vraje more jaya lana dekhaya nija svarupa vilasa "When the name is even slightly revealed it shows me my own spiritual form and characteristics. It steals my mind and takes it to Krsna's side. When the name is fully revealed, it takes me directly to Vraja, where it shows me my personal role in the eternal pastimes." Of course people who want to control others will insist that they absolutely have to be initiated, otherwise God will not respond to them. This is not the same as Gaudiya teachings. Gaudiya teachings recommend initiation, they teach that initiation will speed up the process, but it is not absolutely necessary. The cheater will teach that initiation is absolutely necessary, and it is absolutely necessary to do whatever they tell you to do, they will pick and choose sastric quotes to back up their cheating, leaving out that which will contradict their cheating ways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 22, 2004 Report Share Posted October 22, 2004 If what your saying is the case, and we are meant to be following Srila Prabhupada's example. He took initiation from a bona-fide guru and recieved the mantras from his guru... why didn't he just teach the example that the mantras can be recieved from books and just do that himself? He never he gave initiation and recieved initiation in the vaisnava tradition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 22, 2004 Report Share Posted October 22, 2004 ***Kailasa, You have confused bhakti with institutional loyalty. Thanks Prabhu. I am read this home. I am not think about GV in only ISKCON. But facts. - most GM follow some doubtfull conception and liders - some GM make materialist war in devotee ISKCON Question in this case not institution, qustion in this case on spiritual position GM. Of course ISKCON has problem, yes. But most GM make destroy ISKCON most material and not good metods. ISKCON has principal distinction from GM, he is collegial. It is desire SBST. In this sence ISKCON institutional true organisation. But GM - not. I am think in some time GM will cooperate ISKCON in material and spiritual relations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 22, 2004 Report Share Posted October 22, 2004 It is guru- bisness GM. Ok boys. You HAS nice uttama guru. You has true initiation, but what result? Santa rasa it is all rasas, but nor yours guru, but no you do not know this. You has nice uttama guru? You has true initiation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 22, 2004 Report Share Posted October 22, 2004 I am not think about GV in only ISKCON. But facts. - most GM follow some doubtfull conception and liders - some GM make materialist war in devotee ISKCON --kailasa these are not facts,,these are interpretations. For many of us you have to exactly excange the terms to have a vision of the reality. So much better for the spiritual health to judge singles and not group of singles - Question in this case not institution, qustion in this case on spiritual position GM. --gaudya vasihanva sampradaya is many branches.. one of them is iskcon... how can you oppose the branch iskcon again all the other ones and discover only two philosophies.... iskcon and gaudyas.. that's fool most GM make destroy --thats' a welcome change... before all gM was bad, now most Gm... thanks ISKCON has principal distinction from GM, he is collegial --iskcon is not collegial.. iskcon ha a collegial instrument called GBC.. if you ask to a iskcon devotee who's his guru, he answers "radhanat swami","tamal krsna swami", "jayapataka swami" and so on... not "GBC". Guru gives japa,mahamantra,gayatri and sacred thread.. not gbc and an iskcon devotee do not feel himself without guru if anyone in GBC,different from his guru,falls... So iskcon is essentially guru based. I am think in some time GM will cooperate ISKCON in material and spiritual relations. --very useful for iskcon to stop the current offensive culture .. the one who generates the constant falldown of gurus and leaders. Very essential to grant and state the belonging of iskcon to gaudya math.. iskcon is not a new cult Ok boys. You HAS nice uttama guru. You has true initiation, but what result? --true initiation and uttama guru = goloka vrindavan... before or later... no doubt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 22, 2004 Report Share Posted October 22, 2004 The descent of the Holy Name transcribed by Acyutananda Das Nabadwipa 1976 His Holiness B.R. Sridhar Maharaja sat on the roof of his quarters in Nabadwipa (West Bengal). The now very old sadhu was in a contemplative mood, and to approach him in this state disturbed me. He motioned that I should sit in front of him, so I timidly went and sat down on a grass mat at his feet. There was no one to be seen for miles around. „There are many things to see from up here by which we can remember Sri Chaitanya, „His Holiness said. „We have this Ganges, this forest, the temples, His favourite tree, banana. What have you come here to ask me?“ „Can you explain how, if the Name is a spiritual thing, how is it that we are all chanting it with a material tongue?“ I asked, feeling quite foolish. After some silence he began to speak, „Nitai Chaitanya, Nitai Chaitanya,“ and then he proceeded: „It cannot be uttered by a material tongue, nor can a material ear hear the Name. He (the Name) is adhoksaja, (beyond experimental knowledge), having reserved the right of not being exposed to organic senses. All the experience, knowledge and memories that we have are gleaned with the help of mundane sense perception. Our tongue is comprised mostly of earth and water elements; the nerve endings extending to all parts of the body carry charges of electricity, also a material element. If an object is too far away, it is not touchable, seeable, tastable, etc.; if an object is too close, it is also imperceptible; we cannot see our own tilaka mark or even our own eyelids. „When the senses are extended by microscopes and telescopes, these instruments have more range, but are still limited to the material sphere. The telescope cannot penetrate the outermost covering of the universe; the microscope lens is composed of atoms and therefore cannot see the atom or anything smaller than the atom. Likewise, the system of mental speculation is also inefficient to perceive the spiritual element. Mind is a material element whose density is very slight. (Bhagavad-gita, VII:4) Higher abstractions are no more spiritual than hard rocks. There is common belief that by extending the potency of the mind we can conceive of the infinite, but this process is defective. If the infinite can be confined in a limited mind, then it is not infinite. I don’t even know how many hairs are on my own head. Mental speculators grind their brains over abstract aphorisms of Zen and Upanisads and think that by their own power they can achieve something like infinity. The result is mental masturbation. The mind explodes and dies of exhaustion. And the reaction is deplorable: total forgetfulness of the self and the infinite. „There are channels by which the infinite descends. He is all power, glory, beauty, knowledge, wealth and renunciation. He is dominant, all-extending, free, and autocratic. The infinite cannot be contained in a limited sphere, as I’ve just said, but if He is really infinite then He has the power of making Himself known in all His fullness to the finite mind. When, out of His own prerogative, He takes the initiative and reveals Himself to the devotee, there is actual perception of Godhead, self realization, transcendental revelation. By the channel of transcendental sound He comes, by vibrating the spiritual tongue of the pure devotees representing Him to the world. The spiritual element vibrates the spiritual tongues of the perfect devotee’s audience, which have hitherto never been vibrated.. „The pure devotee utters the Name of God. Our material ears hear some sound that resembles the transcendental Name of Krsna; our eardrum moves the liquid of the inner ear, half water and half air, which vibrates the ethereal element and touches our mind. At this point, soul has still been untouched, and there has been no genuine spiritual experience. By hearing with the mind‚s impressions, we enjoy the sound of the cymbals, the beat of the chant, the pleasant company and effect of listening and hearing. But it doesn’t stop here. Piercing the mind, the original sound uttered by gurudeva moves our intellect, and we consider philosophical and metaphysical truths. For millions of years, sages chanted this on the banks of many holy rivers. Ideas flood everywhere about the possible effects of the mantra. This, while being quite blissful, is not spiritual revelation in the true sense. Beyond the intelligence is the spiritual element, soul, myself. That sound, having cut through all my senses including the mind and intellect, now vibrates the finest sentiments of my own real existence. This is the perception of the holy Name on the spiritual plane with my spiritual ear. Then, the soul inspired, recapitulates, sending vibration back into the intelligence, mind, and so on, the whole process inverted, out to my external tongue and we say „Hare Krsna.“ That Hare Krsna is He. And we dance in ecstasy. „Sounds, sounds, sounds,“ His Holiness repeated slowly. „Sounds. Catch hold of the sounds. Seize the sound waves travelling within the ether, and your happiness in spiritual life is assured. One sage has explained in his sutra that massive epidemics are due to contamination of the ether by impure sound. When the lawyers and pleaders in court begin to tell lies in the name of justice, these sound vibrations contaminate the ether, which in turn contaminates the air and water which people breathe and drink, and epidemic is the result. „When four-headed Brahma creates the universe, the seed ingredient is sound, „OM.“ And from that „om“ the Gayatri mantra is born: in this sound, the fourteen planetary galaxies sprout like whorls of spiralling stars and planets, with the sun situated in the very centre of the universe. Each planetary system is composed of a different sound uttered by Lord Brahma. Each galaxy provides the infinite jivas with their particular spheres of karma, dharma, artha, kama, and moksa. It is the function of Brahma to provide these different galaxies and planets according to the sinful and meritorious deeds of the innumerable. Lord Brahma utters a different sound for each planetary system and his engineer, Sri Visvakarma, creates the planets according to those sounds. The subtle elements and gross elements are distributed in this way. In our planet, the predominating elements are earth and water. In other worlds, only water is found. On the sun, fire is the prominent element. If a spiritual individual, under the effects of illusion, or maya, wishes to end his gross existence, he may enter a planet of air, ether, mind or intelligence and live as a ghost. „The individual jiva is also endowed with a particle of creative power. And the ordinary individual as well creates his tiny sphere of influence by sound. Some jivas‚ spheres of influence are no bigger than their own craniums, and some jivas have influence over a community, a nation, or even a whole planet. The beauty and harmony of their particular spheres of influence depends on the quality of sounds they produce. „When one nation tries to conquer another, the first points to capture are the radio stations, the newspapers, the journals - the lines of communication. By sending out its manifesto by sound, the government can move the former leaders from their posts and capture the country. Then, also by sound, the new government becomes established. If there should be any defect in that sound, then the whole thing is ruined. That is why there is so much alteration in the world situation. The sound of all these jivas is, to quote the Bible, „Babel.“ Nonsensical sounds are entering and contaminating the ether, the air, the water, and the very molecular structure of each and every person, place and thing. „A person’s mind is composed of two functions, technically termed sankalpa and vikalpa. Sankalpa refers to the mind’s desire to join thoughts into concepts, theories and tableaus of theories. Vikalpa is the mind’s function of rejecting thoughts, simplifying and limiting experiences which are gathered through the senses of sight, sound, smell, taste and touch. Both functions are controlled by sound. Here is an experiment: Close your eyes. When I repeat a number, you will see the number flash before your mind like a cash register. One....Three....Seven....Four.... The processes of sankalpa and vikalpa respectively make the thoughts come and go. This is a very simple form of the mind’s process. On a more complicated scale, there is the very risky business of intentionally invading the sound waves with defective sound. The lines of communication are filled with impure sound from the earliest of schoolbooks to the most advanced so-called philosophy. The White House filibusters are another excellent example of intentional pollution of sound channels. If we were to infuse spiritual sound into the ether, if we were to saturate the ether with the transcendental sound vibration of Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare/Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare, this maha-mantra would purify, enlighten and saturate every being with its potencies. „In Sri Chaitanya’s eight verses, which comprise the final message of all spiritual instructions, the first verse gives five effects of the transcendental sound of the Hare Krsna maha-mantra as follows: Ceto-darpana-marjanam. It wipes the material dust from the mirror of the mind. The mind is like the intermediate connecting medium between the spirit and the material external covering called the body. The soul has no material activity. When covered by maya, or illusion, the soul remains dormant in a state of suspended animation. The magnitude of the soul is so great, however, that it infuses consciousness on all sides. Through the medium of the mind, the senses act and we „know“ things. If this „glass“, the mind, is put out of focus by the external nature, we suffer confusion, pain, disease, and death. Yes, death is a state of mind only, as the soul has no death. By the mind we mistakenly think „Oh! I‚m dying!“ „I‚m drowning!“ „I‚m giving birth!“ „I‚m sick!“ etc. When the mind is cleansed by the maha-mantra, the mind is forcibly purified. All the material concoctions, which are the cause of our suffering, are forcibly murdered, starved to death. They thrive on material sense pleasures. Flooding the mind with transcendental sound is just like stepping on the pin of a bomb: All those misconceptions of material suffering and enjoyment are shattered, murdered, and the material mind is conquered wholly, leaving no enemies behind. The mind then reflects the spiritual knowledge, quality and energy of the soul itself. „Bhava-maha-davagni-nirvapanam. The fire of conditional life is thus extinguished. Nirvana, which most people are trying to understand from Buddhist texts, means extinguishing the fire of material existence. This body has been burning from the very beginning of its duration by the process of digestion. Biologists all declare that the body is a burning organism, giving off heat, water vapour and carbon dioxide. After seventy or more years, our body is consumed by that smouldering digestive fire, and we move into another body, only to burn up that one too. It is like chain smoking: with the lit end of the cigarette you lights up a fresh cigarette, and on and on. By the potency of the transcendental sound, the cause of that fire is extinguished. „Sreyah-kairava-candrikavitaranam vidyavadhujivanam. The transcendental sound then spreads the light of benedictions, peaceful suggestions and fearlessness, and no more anxieties invade the mind. We approach the world after coming out of the womb with many deep-rooted feats: Is there safety? Is there happiness? Is there peace? The answer is the basic seed. Om in this sense means one big spiritual yes. Om, yes - a positive answer. Simply by negating the mind, the questions of the soul are not satisfied; something positive must be given. The maha-mantra floods the mind with affirmative suggestions of the truth. „Anandambudhi-vardhanam pratipadam purnamrtasvadanam. A full draught of an ocean of blissful nectar is served to the soul, who has been thirsty from time immemorial. „Sarvatma-snapanam param, vijayate sri-krsna-sankirtanam. This point has a twofold meaning, one external and one internal. Sarvatman means „all souls.“ The holy Name bathes all souls with spiritual bliss, knowledge and love. The transcendental sound completely overcomes the soul with His sublime potencies. But atman has many meanings, as given by Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. Atman means the supreme absolute truth, the body, the mind, the intelligence, endeavour, conviction and nature. By uttering the pure sound of the maha-mantra one invades the very cause of everything that exists. The mind, body and soul, and even nature itself can be changed into transcendental nature by one heartfelt exclamation of „Hare Krsna.“ Capture the sound waves which are the cause of every time of existence and saturate them with the holy Name. The result will be the total transformation of energy. An asrama, temple, and all the paraphernalia in them, are all divine. The environment in which we live in the asrama is not the same as the one in which we were born. It is „there“‚ it is Goloka, and the more we progress in our sadhana the more He will reveal Himself to us. These truths about the descent of the Hare Krsna mantra were alluded to by Jayadeva Goswami, jagat-guru, who has written a beautiful verse in description of this process: „O Hari Nama, You enter my ear and touch my heart, and tears flow from my eyes and fall to the ground; making soft clay, my footprints are left for my successors to follow my way.“ „It must be noted that if the teacher is bogus, then that Name will not touch the spiritual spark withing the coverings of mind and body. It may sound the same, but it is not ; just as milk and whitewash look the same, but they are altogether different. „Now many such artificial gurus are about, and this fact is, as it were, camouflaging the genuine devotees. If someone finds a treasure beneath a tree and marks the tree with his initials, he is unable to recall the original tree. This is now often the case, since false holy men are running rampant. But if one is fortunate enough to know the scriptures and tradition, and if one is truly sincere, he will find a genuine sadhu, hear the Name, and begin authentic spiritual life. Then he or she will find a great gift indeed. „The original sentiments invoked by the Name are concentrated, blissful recollections of the pastimes of Krsna as performed in the spiritual world. These sentiments are in all souls and are five in number, the neutral sentiment, the serving sentiment, the sentiment of friendship, parental sentiment, and the sentiment of intimate love. Krsna is called akhila-rasamrta-sindhu, the ocean of all transcendental sentiment. In the Bhagavad-gita Krsna says, ye yatha mam prapadyante, tams tathaiva bhajamyaham: „I reciprocate all the different services rendered to Me within the sphere of these different sentiments, or rasas.“ While all of these relationships or spiritual sentiments are on the self-same absolute platform, one may simultaneously acknowledge certain distinctions within them. „For example, Krsna exchanges loving sentiments with the neutral devotees, who do not take active engagement in His interest, at His own sweet time and liking. If He wants to play the flute He picks it up, and He sets it down when He likes. To His servants, He is the noble master. In this relationship there is more facility to please the Lord, to bring His food, His favourite clothing. Yet there is still some hindrance, since He may tell the servant to be gone, and the servant must obey out of duty. The friendship rasa has two stages. The first stage is friendship with feeling of respect and reverence. Arjuna has this type of friendly relationship with Krsna. He begs forgiveness from Krsna for unknowingly calling Him in jest or for associating with Him without bowing down, etc. „When friendship with Krsna is more developed, the respect and honourable formalities disappear. Jumping on Krsna’s shoulders, wrestling and playing as though Krsna were their equal, Sudama, Sridama and the other cowherd boys revel in endless sports. Sometimes they even consider Krsna their inferior: „Oh, Krsna, He’s the youngest one of us. He is also the lightest. We can all overcome Him in wrestling, so go lightly with Him.“ As sugar cane juice is concentrated into molasses and then into crystals, so also the friendly rasa, with added feelings, develops into parental affection. „Krsna is my son“, says Mother Yasoda. „I must always look after His needs and protection. If I don’t see Him for even five minutes I get so scared. I see huge trees falling on Him and horrible demons capturing Him. Oh, there You are! Why do You scare Your mother like that? Always stay in my presence; I cannot stand to have You out of sight.“ Even punishment of the beloved is seen in this intimate relationship. „As concentrated sugar becomes rock candy, so the parental exchange of rasas condenses into conjugal love, in which there is complete dedication to the desires of Krsna, with no tinge of desire for one’s own pleasure. „I am Yours“ - complete, unconditional surrender. „If you trample my body underfoot or embrace me too tightly, for Your pleasure I am happy. If You want to throw me into hell and keep me far from Your company, I am prepared to go. If You forget me, that’s okay, but I cannot forget You. You are always my beloved.“ By this time His Holiness had become exhausted. After forty years of lecturing previous to the use of microphones, his voice had become very thin. We were only one inch apart, face to face. He sat there with his eyes, and it was clear that he was experiencing those things of which he spoke. Just then the loud gong began to toll in crescendo, reaching four loud blasts and reverberating into silence. „Go down now. It’s time for aratika. Could you follow my words?“ „Yes,“ I said. „Did you like it?“ „Yes.“ „That’s all right. Go down now.“ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 22, 2004 Report Share Posted October 22, 2004 Follow the Angels The Path of Dedication by Srila Bhakti Raksaka Sridhara Maharaja http://www.bvml.org/SBRSM/FtA.html Nama-Seva In Kali-yuga the service of the Holy Name has especially been recommended in a general way. Sadhu-sanga krsna nama ei, one must climb up to the real plane where he can take the Name proper, up to Vaikuntha, to take vaikuntha-nama, the unlimited Name. It is true that an infinite magnitude of sin may be removed, dispersed, dismissed by one utterance of the Name. But that Name must not be only the physical sound. It must have as its characteristics those of Vaikuntha: unlimited, eternal, from the plane of eternity. Sadhu-sanga, the Name must be taken from Gurudeva, and it should be chanted in the association of the sadhu. Nama-sankirtana is to preach the Holy Name. But what is the Name? The ten offenses against the Name are to be understood and avoided. The external shallow expression of the Name should be eliminated, and the real Name that is one and the same with the Lord, that Name should be taken. That is nama-bhajana, that is kirtana, illuminating the greatness and magnanimity of the Holy Name. The Name Himself is so charming; the Name is the Lord Himself. In this way we practice nama-kirtana. Thereby we can be saved from the external contamination of the forces of karma and jnana, fruitive work and speculative knowledge. Nama: More Than Mundane Sound If we take the Name, then there must be service. Sat-sanga. Sadhu-sanga krsna nama. Service means to dedicate oneself completely to that which we serve. In that way we shall take the Name. For what purpose are we taking the Name of the Lord? Kanaka, kamini, pratis ha: not for money, not for sense gratification, not to achieve popularity. We are ready to sacrifice ourselves completely for Him, for His Name. With that attitude we shall take the Name. It is not limited. The whole life within the fist we shall give for His satisfaction. The whole of our energy, we shall risk it for the satisfaction of the Holy Name. We must approach with this attitude. It is guaranteed. The pursuit, the attempt is backed by our whole energy, our whole life, the whole prospect, everything. With this attitude we shall have to search for a drop of Vaikuntha nectar. Otherwise it is useless. Die to live. Sacrifice, seva. Seva means death—death of the material ego. Seva means to give one's own self to a particular purpose. The seva of Krsna means to give up this mad self, this mundane, concocted self. Try to be saved from our present position. This is not a very laudable thing, our present position; it is a mortal thing, the result of many reactions. So get rid of this shelter. Get out of it, as soon as possible. And enter into the land of confidence and goodness and fairness and sweetness. Try to enter that. It Is Not So Cheap We must be sincere and wholesome, without hesitation. Our campaign must be complete, not partial, as if taking one step forward and three steps back. Otherwise we are the finite and we want to get the advantage over the Infinite. We are very small, but we are willing to sacrifice only a part of the small. Our aspiration is to obtain the Whole. Good friend, it is not so easy. Atah sri krsna namadi, na bhaved grahyam indriyaih. Only our superficial senses are engaged in Krsna's cultivation. For Him it is nothing. Our tongue can produce mundane sound, but that is not Krsna. Sevonmukhe hi jihvadau, svayam eva sphuraty-adah, that is not the Holy Name, only a mundane sound. For the Name to be Krsna, Krsna has to descend there. Don't be self-deceptive; do not think that in taking the Name we have become great sadhus. It is not like that. Krsna has to come down in the form of the sound to us. He is spiritual; He is transcendental. Sevonmukhe, our complete surrender towards Him will attract Him, and He'll graciously come down to grace us in the form of the Name, in our actions, in performing our duties. At every step He will come. When we give ourselves to Him, He will accept us. He will embrace us. He'll be within and without us. He is everywhere, but only those with clear eyes can see Him, not those who are captured by any prejudice for selfish ends or ordinary things. Don't be captivated by prejudice. When all prejudice is cleared, directly see the highest principle underlying all. Like so much dust, the tendency for exploitation and renunciation has blinded our eyes and we can't see Him. Those that are lustful look for the beautiful body. Others only think about business because they love wealth the most. They are always engaged with lust or money; the world of their knowledge is revealed to them. There are such strata. They may boast: I have such power, I have beauty, I have wealth. All is false. The real backing of spirit is Narayana, the all-pervading, the all-knowing principle, the all-good. These other thoughts are temporary. Our prejudices of so many types have captured us. Those that are liberated from these influences, they'll find that this is the kingdom of Narayana, Who is the support and the guardian of the whole of the world. We see His hand everywhere. Without His direction, nothing can move. Serve the Name through a Genuine Agent If we want a guarantee that Krsna will be satisfied with whatever process we undertake, the most important tenet of our movement is that we must act under His agent. His satisfaction depends on that. If the agent is a false man, then our whole effort is wasted. But if he is a real agent, then we must gain through him. If through our connection with him we are connected to Vaikuntha, then our actions will be valued. Otherwise we may lose, and commit offenses: nama-aparadha, seva-aparadha, arcana-aparadha, offenses against the Holy Name, against devotional service, and against the proper worship of the Lord. It is written in the scriptures. If service is not properly done, then we are sure to commit some offenses against the Deity. Either we give satisfaction to Him, or we give some trouble. That is an intolerable way of conducting that holy process. We must guard against nama-aparadha and seva-aparadha. We must not be over-confident of our previous acquisition. We may have acquired so much, our progress may be such, but we must not be proud. We should not be satisfied with ourselves. Mahaprabhu Himself said, "I am taking the Name, I am showing so much peace, shedding so many tears, in the Name of Krsna. But why? It is all false. My tears are only for show, to convince others that I am such a great devotee." In such a way we must disbelieve that we are devotees. We must be very careful, very, very careful. Kaviraja Gosvami and Narottama Thakura have written thus. "I am neglected, I am left behind, I am excluded. I am so low; I am so contaminated. I am rejected from the Infinite lila. I could not utilize this great fortunate wave." This should be the feeling of a real Vaisnava who has an actual relationship with the Infinite. As much as the finite comes in contact with the Infinite, the disposition cannot but be affected. It is not imitation; it cannot but be the real thing. "I am empty, I don't get anything," that should be our mood. "I feel emptiness within me. I can't get it, my life is frustrated. My life is going to be frustrated. I don't get a drop of the grace of the Lord, and I have left the world; everything is gone. If you don't accept me, I am undone. Please make me a servant of the servant of the servant of the servant. Give me the remotest connection. Graciously give me some remotest connection to Yourself. I can't tolerate it otherwise." This heartfelt, heart-rending prayer must come from the devotees of the Lord, then we will find our fortune. The charm for the world outside must be fully eliminated from the heart, fully emptied. And the near future will be filled with the nectar of the grace of Krsna. Bhukti and mukti, the desires for enjoyment and renunciation are compared with ghosts. These two types of ghosts reside in the heart. So how do we dare to express that bhakti lives in our heart? The noble lady of devotion, will she come there, lying on the same bench with these ghosts? How can we expect that? Have we freed ourselves from all these nasty things that we dare to invite the lady of Krsna-bhakti to come here? Necessity of True Humility Our modesty will not be ignorantly accepted as lack of qualification; have no fear of that. trnad api sunicena taror api sahisnuna amanina manadena kirtaniyah sada harih "One who is humbler than a blade of grass and more forbearing than a tree, and gives due honor to others without desiring it for himself is qualified to always chant the Holy Name of Krsna." (Siksastaka 3) Infinite meaning and prospect, the general direction is given thus. Do we take the process of divine sound, to reach that goal by the divine sound? To come to that level we will have to accept such an attitude of humility. Then we will feel that there is a very fine, fine level through which we can reach there. The finest level is there. But we are to accept such an attitude here, then it will be possible, but not by force. There is no necessity of removing a mountain, or to oppose a river current; big things won't be necessary. Only by cultivation of the spiritual sound will we be able to reach the goal. But we will have to take such an attitude, and we will feel that we have come to a particular, very subtle level. Only through sound can we go there. Our soul can be attracted, connected with that, only if we can saturate ourselves with this trnad api sunicena, taror api sahisnuna. That means a great deal, it is not an outward statement. If we adopt this sort of mood, we shall have to cross many oceans. Many oceans we shall have to cross, to experience. From our present position of egoistic boasting, we are to go to the lowest level of a blade of grass. We are to go through country after country, plane after plane. Taror api sahisnuna, to reach into that sort of attitude, we will pass on our way so many suns, moons, and earths. Such concrete things we shall have to bid adieu. Many basic thoughts of the concrete, they have to give way; leave them behind to reach that attitude properly. Amanina manadena. Our connection with the subtle and higher things necessitates that we ignore the concrete, amanina manadena. The plane of life will be changed. The plane will change to where the activity should be, where the energy should be invested; not in this plane-that which we see about us as concrete. Mahaprabhu is saying: don't assert, forget giving resistance, rather if any resistance comes, try to forbear with the best of your energy. Don't try to intrude upon the physical prospects of others. Manadena, don't give any opposition to them. If we can do this, then we are automatically led to a particular plane. We will find harmony beyond our expectation and our conception. A wonderful thing! Only through the Holy Name we find that Krsna is over-flowing, all-pervading. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu instructed Raghunatha Dasa Gosvami to always remain meek and humble and to always chant the Holy Name. gramya-katha na sunibe, gramya-varta na kahibe bhala na khaibe ara bhala na paribe amani manada hana krsna-nama sada la'be vraje radha-krsna-seva manase karibe "Do not talk like people in general or hear what they say. You should not eat very palatable food, nor should you dress very nicely. Do not expect honor, but offer all respect to others. Always chant the Holy Name of Krsna, and within your mind render service to Radha and Krsna in Vrndavana." (C.c. Antya-lila 6.236-7) We must not attend to worldly talk, neither should we engage in that. Bhala na khaibe ara bhala na paribe, don't seek after the satisfaction of our tongue and belly, and don't try to wear any good dress to be admired by the people. Amani manada hana krsna-nama sada la'be, give honor to all, but don't seek honor from anyone. In this way we will take the Name of Krsna always, continuously. Vraje radha-krsna-seva manase karibe, internally in our minds we shall try to serve Radha and Govinda in Vrndavana. As we are in Vrndavana, we are serving Radha and Govinda. That will be our mental aspiration. Externally we are to go on, living our life simply in this way: no good dress, no good food, no indulgence in worldly topics-neither speaking nor hearing them, always giving honor to all, and not seeking honor from anyone. In this mood we must go on, kirtaniyah sada harih. Potency within the Name The real Name must be vaikuntha nama grahanam. That of Infinite characteristic, that is Vaikuntha; it is not in this mundane or measured plane. Maya, illusion, is measured by local or provincial interest, not Absolute interest. Nama must not be rooted there, but it must have its connection with the Absolute plane. Then it will come and transform us and prepare us. It will make us fit for the service of that Absolute plane. Krsna is there; it is not a thing of concoction or imagination. It is Reality, and what we think to be real at present is unreal. The sound must have the divine characteristic. Krsna, Hari, these sounds are nirguna, beyond all material qualities, and divine. Sabdha brahma nama-krsna: vaikuntha nama grahanam asesagha haram viduh (Bhag. 6.2.14). The Name must be of divine characteristic, that which can take away all that is undesirable in us. The Name must have a spiritual conception. It cannot be a mere physical imitation, that which can be produced by lip and tongue alone. Krsna, Hari, Visnu, Narayana, all these are Vaikuntha nama. It is necessary that they have spiritual existence, which is all in all. They must have spiritual depth, not imitation. Physical imitation is not the Name proper. It is not sabdha-brahma—only the imitation sound may come out, but not real depth. So Name means Nama-brahma, Nama-Krsna. The Name must have some spiritual background or spiritual truth that is distributed through the physical sound. The sound is not Krsna, but Krsna is within the sound. The Name must be surcharged with the spirit, and that spirit is not of mundane character. That is not found in the Sankara or Mayavadi (impersonalist) school. Their belief is that although the Name is not confined within the jurisdiction of the physical, still it is only mental, sattva-guna, the material quality of purity. That is also a product of this maya, misconception. That is their misunderstanding. The potency is within. What type of thought or sentiment is imparted through that sound is the important thing. The Mayavadis have the same mantra, they also chant the Name, but that sort of Name will vanish in Brahmaloka, the highest planetary system in the material universe. They won't be able to cross the Viraja River between the material and spiritual worlds. Mayavada Nama is like Thunder When the Mayavadi impersonalist chants the Name of Krsna, our Vrndavana Dasa Thakura says that his praise, his taking the Name, and his devotional characteristics are just like thunder against the holy body of Krsna. There is no soothing effect from his chanting. In the Gaudiya Matha [the spiritual society founded by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Prabhupada], we are interested in Reality, not in appearances. We want only what is real in the world of realization, the step by step development of spiritual practices, the required adjustment. We are not enchanted with the outward form; the mere form does not capture us. We are interested in the idea and the step by step gradual development in the conception: what is Viraja, what is Brahmaloka paravyoma? What is Goloka Vrndavana? All these things: karmibhyah parito hareh priyataya vyaktim yayur jnaninas, tebhyo jnana vimukta bhakti paramah premaika nis has tatah. It is said in the sastra that of all types of fruitive workers, the Supreme Lord Hari favors one who is advanced in knowledge of the higher values of life. Out of many such people who are advanced in knowledge, one who is practically liberated by virtue of his knowledge may take to devotional service. He is superior to the others. However, one who has actually attained prema, pure love of Krsna, is superior to him. (Upadesamrta 10) Understanding this gradation is required: what is Viraja proper, what is Brahmaloka, what is the brahmajyoti or spiritual effulgence, what is Sivaloka, what is Vaikuntha-loka, and then what is Ayodhya, what is Dvaraka, what is Mathura, what is Vrndavana-the realistic view of the whole gradation. Na tatha me priyatama atma yonir na sankarah: "O Uddhava! Neither Brahma, nor Sankara, nor Sankarsana, nor Laksmi, nor even My very Self is as dear to Me as you." (Bhag. 11.14.15) Naivatma [not even Myself], "you are My favorite, Uddhava." How is it possible? We have to follow the spirit. We are slaves of the truth, beggars of what is flowing down to us from above, the spiritual current, the pure current. The external form does not charm us. -- Gradations of the Holy Name There are those that think that Hari-nama, Krsna-nama, and Siva-nama are one and the same, like the followers of the Ramakrishna Mission or the Sankara school. They teach that, but such an idea originates in the plane of misunderstanding. Suddha-nama, the pure Name, must have its original form in nirguna-bhumika, far beyond the misconception of maya. The influence of maya reaches up to Viraja; then there is Brahmaloka, then Paravyoma. The real Name must have its origin in Paravyoma, and Krsna-nama originates in Goloka, the most original plane of the whole existence. To be really Krsna-nama, it must have its origin in the highest plane of Vrndavana. Nama-akara, the mere physical sound, is not the Name proper. The real Name is necessary not only for us to get out of this world of maya or misunderstanding, but for the attainment of the service of Krsna in Vrndavana. The Name that has its origin in the Vrndavana plane, only that can take us there. Otherwise, if the spirit in the Name, the sound, is of any other type, it may take us to that mundane place only. This is quite scientific; it is not unreasonable. A mere word is not the Name. The meaning and the essence of the meaning, the deep conception of the meaning, that is everything; it is all in all. It is all-important to serve our purpose. Name Proper from a Bonafide Guru We shall try to take upadesa, instruction, from a real source, not from just anyone. Asat sangete krsna nama nahi haya: we cannot find real Krsna-nama in the association of those that do not have it. The external sound, the superficial sound may come out, but not the substance. The external cover of the sound, the ordinary sound, that may not be Krsna. Nama-aparadha, nama-abhasa. It is ordinary sound, not Vaikuntha sound, not spiritual sound. Where sound is surcharged with spiritual knowledge, with feeling, that is Krsna-nama, that is Krsna. The superficial imitation of Krsna-nama is not Krsna; it is mundane sound. That is the difference between mundane sound and spiritual sound. When we have spiritual life within and we speak about Krsna, our words are surcharged with spiritual substance. There is a story about a doctor who had a dispensary where he saw many patients and administered much medicine. One day, the doors of the dispensary were open, and the doctor was absent. One monkey entered there, and monkeys are good imitators. The monkey entered, and taking a seat on the doctor's chair, he imitated the doctor, giving medicine here and there. But the monkey's treatment is not that of the doctor. The external aspect is there, imitation, but the inner aspect is absent. Similarly, spiritual understanding must be there within the physical actions. Krsna-nama is not only mundane sound; it is something else. It is necessary that we take the sound from a bonafide guru who has spiritual realization, whose words are surcharged with spiritual substance. It is required. Otherwise, it will be all in vain; it is only cultivation of mundane sound. Vaikuntha nama grahanam asesa. It is said in the sastra that you should take the Name identified with Infinite Vaikuntha-nama; that sound that has a connection with the Infinite, not the mundane limited sound, connected to the limited world. An ordinary person, a student, must come to a real professor who will be able to offer real education, not to anyone and everyone. This is the norm. A person of high intelligence can discover something from ordinary events. From ordinary incidents, an expert can find out the higher truth, just like Newton. When the apple fell from the tree, the realization came to him: "Oh, the earth is drawing it, attracting it." Ordinary people see an apple falling, but no such realization comes that the earth is drawing it, attracting it. Newton discovered gravitation. Observation of the ordinary gives new light to an expert, a person with a higher brain. In the same way, the higher spiritualist can obtain deep realizations from the apparently commonplace. But for ordinary persons it is not possible. They should go to a proper source. It is mentioned in the Upanisads, in Bhagavatam, Bhagavad-gita, how and with what attitude the disciple should approach the acarya, the spiritual preceptor. If the acarya has practical and scriptural knowledge of the truth, if this qualification is there, he is not bogus, but a real acarya. We must approach a real doctor to cure disease, not a monkey imitating a doctor. It is common sense. If we have thirst for spiritual knowledge, then we must go to a proper spiritualist, not one that will harm us, avaisnava mukhod girnam, an imitation acarya. It is common sense; progress is possible when a real transaction is made. Sometimes that is very difficult. A good professor is necessary, but if the student is not up to standard, then the professor can't do anything. Both must be qualified, student and professor; only then can scholarship be imparted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mini Posted October 22, 2004 Report Share Posted October 22, 2004 Crazy long posts in this thread !! I still can't understand the thing between ISKON and GV. If by chance all the ISKONs and GVs are interchanged for 30 days maybe they will understand each other better. (sorry not meaning to be funny ) kind regards, mini Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 22, 2004 Report Share Posted October 22, 2004 I'm aware of Neil Delmonico's (aka Nitai das) false claims that SBSST was not properly initiated by Srila Gour Kishore das babaji. Such claim is falacious and cannot be proven. The same group complains about how he accepted sannyasa vesa from his gurudeva's picture. They simply don't accept SBSST or recognize the significance of the transcendental connection he had to his father, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, as his spiritual preceptor and guide. No one said that you have to receive the maha-mantra through a formal initiation ceremony. Even though there is a distinction between the maha mantra and the diksa mantras Srila Prabhupada made none in his talk with Yoko Ono about what is a mantra. However Srila Prabhupada very clearly stated on his first record album that chanting must be heard from the lips of a pure devotee. SBSST explains the importance of the source of any mantra in many essays. There is a difference between nama aparadha, nama abhasa and suddha nama. If you can chant suddha nama(offenceless chanting) then certainly you don't need to take diksa,otherwise it is a different situation. That is what His Divine Grace says in the purport you offered us. " Purport by Srila Prabhupada "In other words, the chanting of the Hare Krsna maha-mantra is so powerful that it does not depend on official initiation, but if one is initiated and engages in pancaratra-vidhi (Deity worship), his Krsna consciousness will awaken very soon, and his identification with the material world will be vanquished. more one is freed from material identification, the more one can realize that the spirit soul is qualitatively as good as the Supreme Soul. At such a time, when one is situated on the absolute platform, one can understand that the holy name of the Lord and the Lord Himself are identical. At that stage of realization, the holy name of the Lord, the Hare Krsna mantra, cannot be identified with any material sound. If one accepts the Hare Krsna maha-mantra as a material vibration, he falls down. One should worship and chant the holy name of the Lord by accepting it as the Lord Himself. One should therefore be initiated properly according to revealed scriptures under the direction of a bona fide spiritual master. Although chanting the holy name is good for both the conditioned and liberated soul, it is especially beneficial to the conditioned soul because by chanting it one is liberated. When a person who chants the holy name is liberated, he attains the ultimate perfection by returning home, back to Godhead. In the words of Sri Caitanya-caritamrta (Adi 7.73): krsna-mantra haite habe samsara-mocana krsna-nama haite pabe krsnera carana "Simply by chanting the holy name of Krsna one can obtain freedom from material existence. Indeed, simply by chanting the Hare Krsna mantra one will be able to see the lotus feet of the Lord." The offenseless chanting of the holy name does not depend on the initiation process. Although initiation may depend on purascarya or purascarana, the actual chanting of the holy name does not depend on purascarya-vidhi, or the regulative principles. If one chants the holy name even once without committing an offense, he attains all success. During the chanting of the holy name, the tongue must work. Simply by chanting the holy name, one is immediately delivered. The tongue is sevonmukha-jihva -- it is controlled by service. One whose tongue is engaged in tasting material things and also talking about them cannot use the tongue for absolute realization." ***************************** Otherwise if your nama bhajana is not offenceles and you are not liberated then what to do? Who was Haridas Thakura's diska guru? Unless you can chant like he did, then best to take shelter and initiation from a qualified preceptor in the preceptorial chain of our guru parampara, who can explain the matter of nama tattva completely. A bona fide guru does not see his disciple as chattel. Don't confuse what iskcon does with our actual guru parampara and how it really functions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted October 22, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 22, 2004 I still can't understand the thing between ISKON and GV. mini, that may be fortunate for you. Basically there is GV which means Gaudiya Vaisnavism. Then there is GM which stands for Gaudiya Math. This is the name given to the organization that was started and maintained by the great devotee Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Goswami. He is the spiritual master of Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada who is the one who brought these teaching to the west and spread them so dynamically throughout the world in the late 1960's and early 70's. ISKCON, which means the International Society for Krsna Consciousness was the organizaton that he founded as his preaching vehicle. Some of the other disciples of Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati started their own missions and choose various names. As they remained in India primarily until lately they are more associated in people's minds as remaining under the larger unbrella of GM or Gaudiya Math. Srila Prabhupada's ISKCON was started in the west and then went back into India as it continued to spread world wide. There was then naturally a certain geographical and cultural distinction which gave his mission a slightly different feel and look externally from those in India. This added to the perception of something being different and became suspect by some in India as to if it was even genuine. In the beginning Sila Prabhupada asked his Godbrothers of the GM to help him in his world wide efforts. Little to none actually came. Some rifts even developed as his preaching efforts weren't recognized by many of his GM godbrothers. So ISKCON and GM came to be seen as totally distinct by some and even at odds with each other by others. Later as Srila Prabhupada's heroic efforts came to be more widely acknowledged some of those Godbrothers of his who didn't help initially began to offer their assistence. Better late than never I say. But their motives are often questioned by those in ISKCON. Distrust, whether called for or not abounds in ISKCON who wonder where we these people were when Prabhupada was asking for their help before? Now many of the disciples of all these individuals are bickering and squabbling ad nasuem with occasionally some important topics even being discussed. Fortunate for us we have the writings of these dynamic souls to better explain their positions. I have found it helpfull to my own meager spiritual growth to stay aloof from such mundane wrangling even though the verbage used in their little wars often sounds very high sounding and spiritual. You may want to do something similar. All of this bickering is really just a roadblock to the road back home, back to Godhead. You are a flyer by nature mini. Just sail on above it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 22, 2004 Report Share Posted October 22, 2004 Suddha nama is very nicely explained in Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura's Sri Harinama Cintamani http://bvml.org/SBTP/hc.htm excerpt: ". . . All other auspicious pious results including liberation can bequite easily achieved in namabhasa, but the attainment of love of Godhead is suspended for a while until the jiva reaches the summit of chanting the pure name or suddhanama. One obtains love of Krsna only after reaching this stage of pure chanting. In namabhasa, sin and unwanted desires in the heart are eventually dissipated; thereafter the devotee chants purely. Suddhanama offers the devotee the highest spiritual success, love of Krsna. . . . In summary, one should understand properly that the holy name is identical to the Lord Himself. The principal names of Krsna should be chanted as suddhanama, devoid of namabhasa and the aparadha of vyavadhana. The person who takes these considerations to heart and chants suddhanama even once is considered a Vaisnava. He is to be served with faith and devotion. . . . Short of Krsnaprema, every other success is available in namabhasa. When anarthas are nullified, then namabhasa is converted to nama or suddhanama, the pure name. By pure chanting and by following the rules of sadhana as instructed by guru, sadhu and sastra, one slowly but surely acquires Krsna prema - love of Godhead. But namabhasa chanting can never give Krsnaprema. That soul is indeed fortunate who has freed himself from committing namparadha in the namabhasa stage. The offenseless stage of namabhasa is far superior to karma and jnana, for it nurtures the seed of faith that sprouts rati or attraction. This attraction leads the chanter to suddhanama and finally to prema . . . Srila Haridas Thakura is Namacharya, or the foremost authority on the chanting of the holy name of Krsna. He practiced everything he preached. He taught the jivas about suddhanama, namabhasa, and the glories of Krsna's name; he also instructed how one may stop comitting namaparadha all this by his own example. . . ." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 22, 2004 Report Share Posted October 22, 2004 The Clearing Stage Paxton, Australia - Feb 25, 2002 Eve, Part 1 by Tridandisvami Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja http://www.purebhakti.com/lectures/lecture20020227b.shtml ". . . The next day shortly after sandhya, Vijaya and Vrajanatha came before the respected Babaji, and having offered sastanga-dandavat, they took their asanas. Vijaya took the opportunity to humbly ask, "Prabhu, kindly have mercy upon us and tell us everything about namabhasa-tattva. We are very anxious to know the secret of nama-tattva." Babaji answered, "You are very fortunate. If you want to understand nama-tattva, you must understand three subject matters very well: nama, namabhasa and nama-aparadha. I have already explained so much about nama and nama-aparadha, and now I will explain about namabhasa, which means the semblance of sri-nama. . . ." from: Chapter Twenty-five of Jaiva Dharma, called Prameya: Namabhasa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mini Posted October 23, 2004 Report Share Posted October 23, 2004 Hello Theist, Thanks for clarification. ***All of this bickering is really just a roadblock to the road back home, back to Godhead.*** ***All of this bickering is really just a roadblock to the road back home, back to Godhead.*** ***All of this bickering is really just a roadblock to the road back home, back to Godhead.*** ***All of this bickering is really just a roadblock to the road back home, back to Godhead.*** ***All of this bickering is really just a roadblock to the road back home, back to Godhead.*** ***All of this bickering is really just a roadblock to the road back home, back to Godhead.*** ***All of this bickering is really just a roadblock to the road back home, back to Godhead.*** ***All of this bickering is really just a roadblock to the road back home, back to Godhead.*** ***All of this bickering is really just a roadblock to the road back home, back to Godhead.*** ***All of this bickering is really just a roadblock to the road back home, back to Godhead.*** ***All of this bickering is really just a roadblock to the road back home, back to Godhead.*** ***All of this bickering is really just a roadblock to the road back home, back to Godhead.*** I don't know how to make lenghty posts. /images/graemlins/smile.gif kind regards, mini Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted October 23, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 23, 2004 Works well for me I can only concentrate on a line or two at a time anyway. Hare Krsna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 24, 2004 Report Share Posted October 24, 2004 Sometimes I look in at this web site, to see what devotees have to say. Again and again, I see devotees making propaganda for different groups that they happen to be affiliated with. What really annoys me is when I see my Guru Maharaj's words and teachings being mutilated by people who have no relation with him. People who have no connection at all with Srila Sridhar Dev Goswami Maharaj make propaganda, misquoting and partially quoting Srila Sridhar Dev Goswami Maharaj. It makes me feel like vomiting when I read this .. Puru, please leave my Guru Maharaj out of your marketing and advertising campaign that you are doing for your siksa guru's Mission. You don't really understand Srila Sridhar Dev Goswami Maharaj. That is clear. He taught us that the Harinama guru is the main Guru, and that you don't even need (gayatri) diksa. But Puru, your siksa guru says just the opposite. So make a choice, between your siksa guru and Srila Sridhar Dev Goswami Maharaj. And if you choose to follow your siksa guru then follow him completely, and stop quoting Srila Sridhar Dev Goswami Maharaj, because your underlying purpose is to promote the message you heard from your siksa guru and not Srila Sridhar Dev Goswami Maharaj and his teachings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 24, 2004 Report Share Posted October 24, 2004 So Prabhuji why did Parampujapada Srila Sridhara-dev Goswami Maharaja give diksa and mention it in his books and talks... if his instruction to his disciples was that you 'don't even need diksa' ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 24, 2004 Report Share Posted October 24, 2004 No one is "mutilating" the words of our acaryas, simply posting them. I never quote Srila Bhakti Raksak Sridhar Maharaj out of context, or for any agenda other than offering his divine realizations concerning krsna bhakti. Speak for yourself. Regardless of what you think my motives are, who are you to say who has a connection to Srila Sridhara Maharaja's vanih by siksa? He is also our siksa guru, as are all the Rupanuga acaryas in our gaudiya line. ". . . There is only one guru, who appears in an infinity of forms to teach you, me and all others.. . . Therefore, if the Absolute Truth is one, about which we think there is no difference of opinion, the guru cannot be two. ." HDGACBSP, 1936 Bombay http://www.purebhakti.com/lectures/lecture20030113a.shtml If a careful reading of this lecture does not resolve the matter for anyone then there is nothing I can say to make the matter more clear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 24, 2004 Report Share Posted October 24, 2004 Received today from Guardian-of-Devotion@ Srila Raghunatha Das Goswami appreciated the acme of divine service, the culminating point of divine service - Radha-dasya, which is servitude unto Srimati Radharani. Therefore he is called the Prayojanacarya. Srila Sanatana Goswami is generally conceived of by his successors as the Acarya of Sambandha-jnana. Sambandha refers to 'what is what' - 'what is my position in the spiritual heirarchy.' That was explained most clearly by Srila Sanatana Goswami. And Abhideya - what we should cultivate in order to attain our objective - was mainly given by Srila Rupa Goswami. He taught us how we can attain fulfillment of our life in the domain of love. And what is particularly the highest point of our attainment, or Prayojana, was very vividly shown by Srila Raghunatha Dasa Goswami. He has given us the highest conception of our attainment in the school of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. What is that? Our best fulfillment is in the service of Sri Radha, because only she can fully attract the grace of Krishna. She is the other half who can draw the maximum of rasa, ecstasy, from Krishna - in quantity as well as in quality. So those who are serving Srimati Radharani get the highest type of qualitative rasa from Krishna in reciprocation for their service. That cannot be had through any other channel. Service that comes through Srimati Radharani is of the highest quality, so her service should be our summum bonum of life. This was announced clearly by Srila Raghunatha Das Goswami who is considered to be Prayojanacarya, the guide to show us our highest fulfillment of life. By our association with this day and by our humble attempt to discuss all these matters, we may be benefitted in the achievement of our goal. Sermons of the Guardians of Devotion.. ***************** Is this a "mutilation.?" or simply sweet nectar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 25, 2004 Report Share Posted October 25, 2004 ***-kailasa these are not facts,,these are interpretations. For many of us you have to exactly excange the terms to have a vision of the reality. So much better for the spiritual health to judge singles and not group of singles It is facts. ***Question in this case not institution, qustion in this case on spiritual position GM. --gaudya vasihanva sampradaya is many branches.. one of them is iskcon... how can you oppose the branch iskcon again all the other ones and discover only two philosophies.... iskcon and gaudyas.. that's fool No. Most singles acaryas follow wrong pfilosopfy. In GM you follow some concocted guru. And NOBODY do not help you understand and go from this sect. NM for example deceive openly, but his disciples follow him. They do not has any real spiritual interest then maya create for them nice sect. Another guru write - "guru above sastra" - it is spiritual cuicide and not qualifed guru. But disciples pray his as uttama. ISKCON has many guru, then NO POSSIBLE - hide falldown gurus - made concocted pfilosopy - made blind following for false doctrines Now kali yuga go forward. Then sistem "single acaryas" all useless and wrong. Real parampara it is ISKCON and this GM sects disapear in time. In time Lord Caitanya ALL devotees work togheter. It is was union organisation. Now kali yuga progress then this needs be oficial organisation. ***most GM make destroy --thats' a welcome change... before all gM was bad, now most Gm... thanks Not be emptyhead, I am has many friends in GM. Me russian friend make start SCSM from India, he is be first russian person who preach about SCSM in russia. I am has friend in Veda samiti and they stay some time in ouer namahatta. It is disciples Prabhupada. I am many write about GM in many context. I am do this BECAUSE GM do dirty politiks for ISKCON. ***ISKCON has principal distinction from GM, he is collegial --iskcon is not collegial.. iskcon ha a collegial instrument called GBC.. if you ask to a iskcon devotee who's his guru, he answers "radhanat swami","tamal krsna swami", "jayapataka swami" and so on... not "GBC". Guru gives japa,mahamantra,gayatri and sacred thread.. not gbc and an iskcon devotee do not feel himself without guru if anyone in GBC,different from his guru,falls... So iskcon is essentially guru based. GBC it is supreme organ ISKCON and if some guru fall He do not has absolutely power in this case. It is desire SBST but GM it "asara" in this case. ***I am think in some time GM will cooperate ISKCON in material and spiritual relations. --very useful for iskcon to stop the current offensive culture .. ISKCON do not write books about GM. But GM write books, they preach against ISKCON and so on. If people VNN do not make dirty war, then nobody ISKCON do not has any interests for this organisation. GM come and do war then it theys problem. ***the one who generates the constant falldown of gurus and leaders. Oh yes, follow for yours "not falldown" guru. ***Very essential to grant and state the belonging of iskcon to gaudya math.. iskcon is not a new cult ISKCON it is gaudiya sampradaya. ISKCON follow for acarya but GM - not. ***Ok boys. You HAS nice uttama guru. You has true initiation, but what result? --true initiation and uttama guru = goloka vrindavan... before or later... no doubt You needs NOW this guru, yours guru do not know simple things but so many speak about some "high". It is not has any value. Hare Krisna. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 25, 2004 Report Share Posted October 25, 2004 ***Acyutananda Das It is some sentimental speculation. Uttama guru - Srila Prabhupada distribute holy name wide. And He do not make buisnes on holy name. Yes holy name is spiritual but true guru preach his wide without speculation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 25, 2004 Report Share Posted October 25, 2004 ***I still can't understand the thing between ISKON and GV. GV it is mood Lord Caitanya. ALL!!!! Santa, sakhya, dasya, vatsalya and madhurya if person follow for Lord Caitanya rise in madhurya vipralambha. ALL. It is GV. GM may understand only - Lord Caitanya - moksa as manjari Krisna lila. They completly do not understand Lord Caitanya, mission Lord Caitanya, mood Lord Caitanya, devotees Lord Caitanya. Then main deities SP - Lord Caitanya - left - Krisna Balaram sakhya, right - Radha Krisna madhurya. Both sakhya and madhurya rise in mood Lord Caitanya. Lord Caitanya main, He is unite both sakhya and madhurya. He is unite all rasas - it is GV. They are some peasants GM which "have understood" that "madhurya" this best. But even reach Krisna lila they cannot. They SPEAK about it much. To speak to not so havy as drag bags (Russian saying). To speak everything is possible. And at the best they do meditation on krisna lila. GM understand GV as manjari krisna lila, they think it is - "rupanuga". They do not understand real rupanuga. At the best it only half of science GV and a science for beginning. Thus not understanding essence they try to correct Shrila Prabhupada. It is really funny and ridiculous. "Acaryas." Shrila Prabhupada has told that only sick people can think that they is achieved realizations outside of ИСККОН. And it can be seen. They cannot understand anything EVEN IN the THEORY! Chant chant chant mini, chant chant chant GM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 25, 2004 Report Share Posted October 25, 2004 *** There is a difference between nama aparadha, nama abhasa and suddha nama. If you can chant suddha nama (offenceless chanting) then certainly you do not need to take diksa, otherwise it is a different situation. Yes. Then uttama GURU! do this. Who can repeat without insults? Uttama takes a spark of your recurrence and connect you in the God. He makes it for one second. It is uttama. Madhyama, may made darsan for you without any formal initiation. "Initiation" it is following. Initiation it is right pfilosofi. Initiation it is not formal yajna. Holy name has in book acarya Srila Prabhupada. But diksa it is good. Diksa guru theach right pfilosofi. Diksa guru take part sinfull reaction. Diksa guru made guide. Diksa guru clears ours spiritual body. How? If the pupil follows. If the pupil reads, repeats. If the pupil does not have guru the supersoul helps as. If the pupil repeats a sacred name he follows. If the pupil tries to understand philosophy he follows. If the pupil distributes books Srila Prabhupada he follows. BUT IF THE PUPIL GOES AND ONLY WHAT GURU SEARCH BETTER - THAT HE DOES NOT FOLLOW ANYTHING!!!! Then nobody will help him. If your guru uttama, but you do not follow, you will reach nothing. How many was pupils of empty pupils at SBST? How many was empty pupils at Prabhupada? And pupil Madhavendra Puri? And children Advaita Acarya? Therefore only fools search for the "correct" guru. Only swindlers think that the guru will make all for them. Therefore for such materialists there come the guru which deceive them. "In other words, the chanting of the Hare Krsna maha-mantra is so powerful that it does not depend on official initiation, but if one is initiated and engages in pancaratra-vidhi (Deity worship), his Krsna consciousness will awaken very soon, and his identification with the material world will be vanquished. " Puru Prabhu from Prabhupada - "One should therefore be initiated properly according to revealed scriptures under the direction of a bona fide spiritual master. Although chanting the holy name is good for both the conditioned and liberated soul, it is especially beneficial to the conditioned soul because by chanting it one is liberated. " Srila Prabhupada - " If one accepts the Hare Krsna maha-mantra AS A MATERIAL VIBRATION, he falls down. One should worship and chant the holy name of the Lord by accepting it as the Lord Himself. One should THEREFORE be initiated properly according to revealed scriptures under the direction of a bona fide spiritual master. Although chanting the holy name is good for both the conditioned and liberated soul, it is especially beneficial to the conditioned soul because by chanting it one is liberated. " "If one accepts the Hare Krsna maha-mantra as a material vibration, he falls down. One should worship and chant the holy name of the Lord by accepting it as the Lord Himself. One should therefore be initiated " Yes? /images/graemlins/smile.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 25, 2004 Report Share Posted October 25, 2004 ***In the beginning Sila Prabhupada asked his Godbrothers of the GM to help him in his world wide efforts. Little to none actually came. Some rifts even developed as his preaching efforts weren't recognized by many of his GM godbrothers. So ISKCON and GM came to be seen as totally distinct by some and even at odds with each other by others. Yes, and Prabhupada speak - GM is asara, useless. ***But their motives are often questioned by those in ISKCON. Distrust, whether called for or not abounds in ISKCON who wonder where we these people were when Prabhupada was asking for their help before? No. They simply steal disciples SP and preach wrong pfilosofi. They be materialist before, they stay as materialist now. ***I have found it helpfull to my own meager spiritual growth Nice theist humility is good quality. You reach high humility when you will go in street with holy books head all rupanuga vaisnavas - Srila Brabhupada, Bhaktivedanta Svami. It is complete spiritual, theist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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