The War in Iraq

[AncientMariner]

I have had a lot of reservations about the War but I have come to the conclusion that once the bellyaching is over history will view this time period and realize that America couldn't back down to these radical Muslims. I am sure in Arjunas time there was a lot of bellyaching going on as well but Arjuna continued to execute his duty and his fame will never be forgotten.

[theist]

Any war has a horrific side to it. This one is no exception. The WMD's were never a deciding factor for me. It was the 25 million human beings being held as objects of torment by that insane despot Saddam.

 

No one mentions the over 300,000 bodies they have unearthed that were left in mass graves. His other despicable crimes against humanity that are too numerous to mention.

 

The fact that this facts weren't enough for all the world or at least those in my country to become enraged is a source of embarrassment to me.

 

Similar thing now in the Sudan. More than a million black Christians driven from their homes and more than 50,000 dead by the Arab Muslims. Women gang raped. And the world does nothing.

 

 

[Avinash]

It is true that Saddam Hussain had been torturing Iraqis for many years. US and UK should have mentioned his inhumane acts to justify war. Of course, they mentioned these but they gave far more importance to the presence of WMD's in Iraq. Now many high profile people in US and UK goverments are saying that Iraq did not have WMD's. One may say that even if Iraq did not have WMD's, the war was justified because of the way Saddam Hussein was treating his people. But we must not ignore the fact that nobody likes being lied to.

 

If George Bush and Tony Blair had mentioned realities (and only realities) to justify the war, then those who supported war in the beginning would be supporting even now (at least almost all of them if not all). But since they gave reasons which were later proved to be false, many people in US and UK are feeling that they were lied to and this hurts them. After all, this is human psychology.

[Guest guest]

is the total incompetence in carrying this war out.

 

We de4clared war on those who attacked us on 911. Then, in the middle of that justified war that had every civilized nation on our side, the idiot chicken hawks abandon the just war, and go after a group in no way was connected on attack of america.

 

Al qaida is still at large because we pulled our troops in support of hally burton. High treason has been done to the american people, especially the military personnel. Our troops were invested by means of deception, the unelected one lying about how saddam had connections to al qaida. But the fact is, al qaida hates saddam even more than bush does, always has. There is no solidarity between the wahabi islamists of egypt (the central planners of both WTC attacks, Oklahoma City, flight 800, many embassies, the USS Cole) and the secular sunni baathists, neo stalinists of saddam.

 

Saddam is a demon, but he is their demon. Now hes gone, so america is now their demon.

 

There is three nations that is called Iraq. No peace unless three distinct governments are formed, the baathist sunni seculars, the shias of the south, and the kurd devil worshippers in the north. One iraq means civil war for centuries, and bush stuck our military right in the middle for no reason of homeland security. In fact, homeland security has been betrayed by bushes incompetence.

 

Dont call me liberal, call me the father of a soldier in Iraq. I have more security clearance than bush did until he was sworn in as president.

 

Get our military home, for HOMELAND security.

 

mad mahax

[theist]

Blair and Bush like any world leader relies on the intelligence they were given. To be wrong is not the same as having lied.

 

The fact is Saddam had already shown the world he had WMD's when he gassed the Kurds. France had already built him, two i believe, reactors for producing nuclear weapons which thankfully Israel took out with some airstrikes. Plus for over a decade he jerked around the weapons inspectors from the UN to keep them guessing if he had such weapons or not. All that plus the satelite photos of large trucks making furious runs into Syria right before the war. Many speculate that is where what remained of his WMD program went like in '91 when he placed his airforce's plane in Iran to prevent them from being bombed. Only thing the Iranian's wouldn't give them back. lol

 

The liars were were in the UN and France who were profiting hugely off ripping off the Iraqi people through the oil for food program. And Kofi Annan still won't release the facts to the public.

 

But the fact is they put forward the WMD argument too strong over the torment of his own citizens.

 

Perhaps that says something about the selfish state of the world's citzenry, real or perceived. The argument that he was "contained" is not only wrong it is of incredible selfishness. What? As long as he only slaughters and kills those within Iraq's borders we should look the other way?

 

One unexpected benefit is that Libya surrendered their WMD program to the USA. The whole Middle East is a potential flash point for WW3 and needs to be dealt with now.

 

One thing that the US and the USSR relied on during the cold war was the appropriately named MAD, mutually assured destruction. If one started the war all would die.

 

That won't work with these Islamofacists. They have this suicide bomber mentality. Now picture them with a nuclear suicide belt. Do you think they would hestitate?

[Avinash]

Blair and Bush like any world leader relies on the intelligence they were given. To be wrong is not the same as having lied.

 

Is it true that Blair and Bush were unaware about the absence of WMD's in Iraq? May be initially they were. But isn't it true that high profile people in their own intelligence latter said that there were no WMD's?

 

I am personally happy that Saddam Hussein no longer rules over Iraq. I will be happier if Osama Bin Laden is caught or killed. But I am not sure if Iraqis are really in a better position now. Time will tell.

 

But the fact is they put forward the WMD argument too strong over the torment of his own citizens.

 

Correct. Keeping WMD's is not as bad as tormenting people. A country can have WMD's so long it uses it only for self-defence. After all, USA has the maximum number of WMD's. Therefore, tormenting of one's own people should have been a valid point for the ouster of Saddam. Why is it that US and UK did not highlight this point?

 

One unexpected benefit is that Libya surrendered their WMD program to the USA.

 

It may be considered good that Libya has surrendered its WMD progrms. But I do not understand why it is not wrong for many other countries to keep WMD's.

[theist]

If they new he had gotten rid of them they would not have made such a big deal of his having them, knowing full well that they would never find any and the whole world would be watching.

 

I believe they didn't stress the plight of the Iraqi people more because people are more concerned with their own welfare than that of others. They assumed and probably rightly that of the two issues Americans would most likely give their backing when the WMD angle was emphasised the most. It backfired on them when no such weapons were found.

 

Nuclear weapons in the wrong hands is why not everyone should have them. Actually no one should but that genie has been out of it's bottle for over 60 years. Best we can do now is contain them.

 

Now the number one prioity is to keep these idiot jihadist Islamofacists from acquiring them. Even if that means taking out their capacity to build them by military force.

[Guest guest]

Dont kid yourself. You may hate the idea of UN, but the inspectors and advisors and agents all verified that there were no stockpiles.

 

They continually lied about the bogus connection between Bin ladin and saddam. Everyone knew of bin ladins affinity to the Iranian wahabes, and the joint hatred for the stalinist baathists headed by saddam. To infer alliance between al qaida and saddam is as ludicrous as one saying that the ayatollah khomeni was allied with the peacock throne of the shah palahvi.

 

Mortal enemies. Saddam was our ally to fight against the wahabes of Iran. We loved to supply him WMDs to kill those jihadists. All his WMDs, his gasses, his biologicals, were american made. And they were all old and useless, his nuke program was in shambles.

 

And the liar bush is such a fool that he rejected the UN inspectors and his own intelligence who maintained that no wmds were there in favor of the intelligence he recieved by an Iraqi malcontent who was in the employ of Iran all along.

 

If I make such gross blunders, and people die because the helicopter crashes because I didnt see it off properly, or I did something without following advice of those who are delegated authority to make proper judgement calls, Im not only fired, but prosecuted. Bush should be held accountable for his gross malpractice.

 

And I hate to hear about the danger of other countries and their defence system, when only the united states has fired nuclear worheads on civilian populations in anger, only the US has created this idea of attacking innocent civilians in the conventional bombings of tokyo and dresden. We should all understand Srila Prabhupadas stance on the horrible evil of modern warfare which targets the innocent to get their political goals met, and USA is the creator of such horrendous behavior, for 150 years.

 

Saddam should have been killed, but rumsfeld was too busy shaking his hand. Bush was too busy throwing a beef feed in texas for the Taliban in 2000 to sincerely bring bin laden to justice.

 

Bush apologists have a right to their opinions, but I wish they got their facts from sources other than fox and whacko talk show entertainers.

 

mad mahax

[Guest guest]

Mahaksa- You made a minor error. Iranians are not "Wahabes" [wahhabi, actually].

 

They are Shi'a. Wahhabis are the Saudis, it is an offshoot of the Sunni not the Shi'a.

 

The following is from "Who or what is a Wahhabi?"

 

1. A 'Wahhabi' is a person who follows the teachings of a Mohammed Ibn Abdul Wahhab Najdi.Mohammed Ibn Abdul Wahhab Najdi was born in 1699 and died in 1792. Mohammed Ibn Abdul Wahhab Najdi rebelled against the Akida of Ahle Sunna Wa Jama'a and established his own Wahhabi School of thought. He took as his mentor Ibn Taimiyya (b1263/d1328), who also had rebelled against the Akida of Ahle Sunna Wa Jama'a and established his own school of thought.

 

 

 

4. Mohammed Ibn Abdul Wahhab Najdi was spoon feed and supported by the British Government who were looking for rebellious people like Mohammed Ibn Abdul Wahhab Najdi to destroy the Islamic Caliphate from within its self. (Read the 'Confessions of a British spy' for a detailed account of Mohammed Ibn Abdul Wahhab Najdi's partnership with the British).

 

 

 

5. Mohammed Ibn Abdul Wahhab Najdi was despised by his father and brother, who were both learned ulama of the Ahle Sunna Wa Jama'a. Mohammed Ibn Abdul Wahhab Najdi's brother, Sheikh Suleman, refuted Wahhabism in his book 'As-sawa'iq al-ilahiyya fi'r-raddi'ala 'i-Wahahabiya'.

 

 

 

6. Mohammed Ibn Abdul Wahhab Najdi declared the Ahle Sunna Wa Jama'a as 'Kafirs'. He passed a ruling that it was lawful to kill men, women and children belonging to the Ahle Sunna Wa Jama'a. In fact, it is recorded in the books of history, that, the Wahhabis killed over 100,000 thousand Muslim men and enslaved the women and children.

 

 

 

7. Wahhabis came into power by torturing and killing Muslims. They finally took Mecca with the help of the British in 1924 and bombarded the Shrine of the Holy Prophet(Sallalahu alayhi wa sallam) in Medina. But it was in 1931 that they finally took Medina. And in 1932 the Wahhabis founded the state of Saudi Arabia.

 

[Guest guest]

The egypt-911 connection? any connection? mahak

[Guest guest]

Another reason may be that neither you nor I has to go or send our kids.

 

Just as Noriega was Bush Sr.'s man, until he became a political liablity, so Saddam was our guy until there was a chance for Senior to have a war of his own. The US, Republicans included, have never had a problem with repressive regimes run by blood-thirsty despots who tortured and killed their own citizens, as long as supporting them served some political end. Then, when the wind change, we go wipe them out and seek credit for "liberating" a people. It's dog ., all of it.

[AncientMariner]

A NY Times reporter recently interviewed Kerry and he said Kerry got defensive when asked questions wether his foreign policy record reflected that he was qualified to deal with terrorism. By the end of the interview the reporter said that Kerry was so jacked up that he thought Kerry was going to put on some night vision goggles and abduct one of his staff members to prove that he would be tough on terror.

 

[stonehearted]

I'd love to see how he wrote about his. It reminds me of the old bit Dana Carvey did on SNL during the Gulf War, with Bush the First putting on night vision goggles in the Oval Office: "Scary! Scary!"

[AncientMariner]

LOL. I heard it on the Laura Ingraham radio show this morning. Did you ever see that brief primetime comedy show that Dana Carvey had? The first show Dana Carvey portrayed Bill Clinton as (I think it was) a half momma pig, half chicken. Clinton had his shirt open and his hog tits (excuse the term) were hanging out and he was inviting the American public to feed. Simultaneously (keep in mind that the lower half of his body was that of a chicken) Clinton was shaking his booty and saying "Shake your tail feather. Shake your tail feather." I guess Dana Carvey p.o.ed the liberal elite primetime TV executives so much that they canceled his show within 2 or 3 weeks.

 

 

"When I was serious people thought I was joking and when I was joking people thought I was serious." - William Blake

[Guest guest]

Some authority. Did you know laura ingraham used to be a disc jockey for a reggae show, and said very liberal things. This is her job, entertaining, and all the rightistsa want to be patted on the back, so all these entertainers who do this well get paid seven figures for patronizing.

 

For seven figures, I could be quite vitriolic. For seven figures, I could blame clinton for everything that bush has lies about too. It's hillary, shes a marxist leninist maoist bra burner disciple of gloria steinham. See, its easy to entertain.

 

I was entertained by a bumper sticker, "Clinton lied, people sighed. Bush lied, people died." But, though the sticker produced a snicker, it is true. We separate the truth from the pablum. Find out where the real problem lies.

 

I know that there is long term planning surrounding 911. I know the blinf sheik is the culprit, that bin ladin is his devot disciple. I know this group baffled bush sr, and clinton had no answers to Oklahoma city, flight 800, the cole, the first WTC bombing, and created false stories to try to allay the fears of the people. And Bush has failed as well. But the reason I propose dethroning this hitler is because of how he has covered his complete failure in solving the 1000 year revenge trip of the islam fanatics, by adopting terrorisam himself.

 

He cannot wage war on terrorism by engaging in terrorism. Terrorism means the brutal murder and injury of innocents in order to achieve political advantage. Bush and bin ladin are equals in this regard, except bush is worse if we are counting the number of innocents killed to achieve political goals.

 

Anyway, haribol, nuff for today, howzit babhru, hope you be well, yo brah mahaksadasa

[AncientMariner]

I knew that would get a reply out of ya bro. Its all good, I still love ya.

 

 

 

"When I was serious people thought I was joking and when I was joking people thought I was serious." - William Blake

 

[Tarun]

All 3 should stay in Baghdad on frontline until conflict is resolved.

[AncientMariner]

When I was young and dumb I said some dumb liberal stuff too so I am not going to hold that against her. She made the conversion over to the light side of the force (common sense) and we welcome her with open arms.

 

 

 

 

"When I was serious people thought I was joking and when I was joking people thought I was serious." - William Blake

[AncientMariner]

Maybe I am radio trained but I tried to get a normal education. After 4 years of listening to college professors tell me that homosexuality is normal, that women should behave like militant feminists, that abortion isn't murder and that anything having to do with Christianity is vile and disgusting I gave up on the idea that the liberal elite are actually educated. I can certainly understand people having differences of opinion on Iraq as it is a complicated issue. Maybe we should drop 200 billion dollars worth of Bibles and Srimad Bhagavatams on them. I don't know.

 

 

"When I was serious people thought I was joking and when I was joking people thought I was serious." - William Blake

[gHari]

 

And the U.S. will not be involved. We are dealing with warring mentality; their karma is miles deep.

 

Perhaps the only good thing one can say is that they deserve one another. It's all good.

 

[AncientMariner]

As they say there is nothing lamentable in Krishna's creation. Not a blade of grass moves without his sanction.

 

 

 

"My songs can make you cry, take you by surprise at the same time, make you dry your eyes with the same rhyme. See what you are seeing is a genius at work so its easy to misinterpret it at first, cause when I speak its tongue in cheek. I'd yank my teeth before I'd ever bite my tongue, slice my gums, get struck by lightning twice at once and die and come back as Vanilla Ice's son and walk around the rest of my life spit on, kicked and hit with sh** every time I sung, like R. Kelly as soon as "Bump and Grind" comes on." - Eminem

[gHari]

 

I too find myself a real Slim Shady fan. Marshall is so creative with words n' tunes, he wakes up the world. You'll even hear his "OM" near the end of White America. He and Avril are my only faves in today's music world. I guess it's their stark honesty.

 

 

[Guest guest]

NOTE: Not speaking of anything to do with the mission of Lord Jesus Christ, who clearly predicted the present behavior of those who call themselves "His".

 

Christianity is a terrorist organization as much as the fundamentalist islamic. Terrorism is defined as the willful murder of innocents for a political end.

 

The Christan permission for the war, with ther fanatic puppets, is a war against ISLam, a crusade, which translates as "The war of the cross". Which is why they present the weapon that killed Christ as if it were some holy relic, that his blood is what they are thirsty for.

 

Crristianity has produced the doctrine of "manifest destiny", an evil forgiveness of genocide against indigenous and native peoples to hoard the world that Jesus disregards. Christians have no use for hare krsna either. Give me a break. Do you neocons who like "faith based initiatives" think that hare krsna is included. Do you see an ambassador taking his lunch outside the state department doing samkirtana and distributing books? Boy, no wonder yall fall for these genocidal trips, over and over again.

 

mad mahax

[AncientMariner]

I admit that Christianity has had many phoney preachers like Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Jim Baker etc. I don't disagree with you that a lot of modern Christianity has become a farce. Its just when I was going to school if you believed that Jesus was not a myth that he really was a holy man you were viewed as having some screws in your head loose. To me reducing Jesus to a myth or just a common man is the same as mayavadi philosophy or just pure atheism. The Clinton era is over however so things may have changed by now for all I know. I will give you libs some credit, even though Kerry is an expert in lawyer speak at least he seems to be a decent enough human being who at least has faith in God. Despite liberals denials and excuses I think Clinton's character flaws did lose the liberals credibility.

[Guest guest]

That they do not follow christ, who stands on the commandments of His Father.

 

Srila Prabhupada contends that a christian WOULD NOT KILL.\\

 

Lord Jesus stated the summary of the commandments, as in loving the Supreme Father with whole heart mind body and soul, and linked to this, that we love and treat our neighbors as we treat our own.

 

Butchery has been an anti-christian trait, from crusades and onward. Until one can convince me that blowing up innocents by the thousands in order to make a small group of controllers surrender to the will, one will not make out either the neocon christian fascist of amerikkka nor the head choppin butchers of nomadic shuliman-wannabe fanaticism to even be slightly different from each other on the morality scale.

 

mad mahax