Avinash Posted October 16, 2004 Report Share Posted October 16, 2004 In a previous post you wrote, "I also think that in the spiritual world if there is not some sort of boundary then that means God is limited and cannot create this." This says that if there is no boundary, then God is limited. In other words, if God is unlimited, then there must be a boundary. Now, I think you used the word 'not' by mistake. If so, then I understand what you are trying to say. If middle ground means without beginning and end, then defnitely it is eternal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sumedh Posted October 16, 2004 Report Share Posted October 16, 2004 Hare Krishna The surface of sphere has no boundary, but that is meaningful only in a higher dimension as you point out later. When we only are considering 4 dimensional things then this is not possible (e.g. can there be a boundary-less finite 2 dimensional structure situated on a finite/infinite 2D structure). But then dimension is a property of space, so i do not understand this statement. "Expansion without space is possible if we say that the expansion is happening in some higher dimension. I am just saying that it is possible." If we are considering more dimensions, then it makes perfect sense. But higher dimensions means (much, much more) space other than in universe. So the question shifts from "what is outside the universe?" to "what is there in the space other than that in the universe?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sumedh Posted October 16, 2004 Report Share Posted October 16, 2004 Hare Krishna My understanding is that the nature of space-time is completely different in the spiritual world. Time is not three pronged (past,present,future) and there is only the eternal present -- quite beyond our imagination of eternal as beginless past and endless future (no past,no future). I suppose, even the infinite is quite different from the mathematical infinite we understand as of now. The point is well made that both material and spiritual energies are infinite as only that seems to reconcile the statements. However, elsewhere it has also been told that the entire spiritual Goloka/Vaikuntha fits into the forty square mile of vrindavana -- infinite apparently fitting into finite. Similarly, an entire day of Brahma fit into the single night of rasa lila. As you said, all inconceivable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vijay Posted October 16, 2004 Report Share Posted October 16, 2004 I read something by sadaputa prabhu some while ago. He created a triangle where we are at the botttom and most broadest base. and bramha near the top demigods in the middle. so our 6 months is one day of bramha and a few months of demigods is a minute of bramha. Thus the thin bit at the top of triangle represents the small amount of time past compared to the thick bottom bit. At the top point of the triangle is the singularity where it represents no time and all time of the bottom bits triangle, representing spitual time where it actually can not be compared with material time. This can also be done with a spatial dimensional model. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted October 17, 2004 Report Share Posted October 17, 2004 If something is eternal how can anybody say at what time it expanded? time? Good excercise for the mind and brain. We can stretch them out to their farthest limit and they will become strong and supple by our doing so. It also will build within us a desire to know. Then hopefully the Supersoul will pull us into eternity so that we may *know*. For now I just assume whatever I am conceiving can't be the reality in truth. Maybe we can get some sort of "reasonable facsimile" until then to keep us going. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pankaja_Dasa Posted October 17, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 17, 2004 One day I meet God, I say to Him "God how big is Spiritual Creation" God says "Find out.. here travel for as long as you can then come back, I'll give you all the time in the world!" So I travel for all Eternity but I can't reach any end. Then I decide to go back, just then God appears "so what did you find?" There's no end to the Creation, I was travelling for so long. God says according to my calculation you were gone but not gone, "what do you mean I said dear God?". Well said God time is Eternal so you were never actually gone. But I said what about.. {its eternal god says, don't worry about it} == Things that make you go HUH? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mini Posted October 17, 2004 Report Share Posted October 17, 2004 Hello Pankaj Dasa, From where did you quote those lines from?? Personally, I think we humans are not at a level where we can understand everything, as we are limited by our mind. I don't think there is a limit upto where our consciousness can grow, but how much we are capable of attaining in one lifetime, we must try to reach for that. Even Gods may be evolving and expanding in that sense??? regards, mini Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinash Posted October 17, 2004 Report Share Posted October 17, 2004 If we are considering more dimensions, then it makes perfect sense. But higher dimensions means (much, much more) space other than in universe. So the question shifts from "what is outside the universe?" to "what is there in the space other than that in the universe?" This is why in one of my posts above, I emphasised "considering our 3D space + 1D time". Now, we can ask what the properties of higher dimensions are. We just don't know. They may be similar to the dimensions that we perceive or they may be entirely different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vijay Posted October 17, 2004 Report Share Posted October 17, 2004 we are trying to understand the universe, shastra says just a layer/dimension above(below) us there are ghosts, which are operating on another dimension so to speak. In guarda purana it is explained how a few momnets for us is a long period of time for them. Just like when we go sleep we may have had a dream which seems like days in a few minutes. The mental subtle plane is way greater and uncomprehsible then the gross materialistic plane which actaully springs from the subtler elements. Nera death experience guys who experience themselves in a subtle body feel that at that point they know all maths laws of physics and they are much more aware of the're univeral surroundings, so i guess the higher we go the more we comprehend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinash Posted October 17, 2004 Report Share Posted October 17, 2004 However, elsewhere it has also been told that the entire spiritual Goloka/Vaikuntha fits into the forty square mile of vrindavana -- infinite apparently fitting into finite. It is possible that Vrindavana is a projection of Goloka. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pankaja_Dasa Posted October 17, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 17, 2004 From where did you quote those lines from?? I made it up as a kind of a joke. Even Gods may be evolving and expanding. Your right we cant know everything, but it fun to try /images/graemlins/laugh.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sumedh Posted October 18, 2004 Report Share Posted October 18, 2004 "It is possible that Vrindavana is a projection of Goloka." The spiritual Goloka Vrindavana and the one on earth are said to be the same (with some technical difference, given in purports of Brahma Samhita) but we do not have the eyes to see. In these cases then the problem seems to be our perception and the intuition that results from it; simplest examples being what we feel time is and the 3D space should be so and so. The point that i was trying to make was that the whole material creation can occupy only an insignificant portion of the spiritual sky and still have a quarter of energy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mini Posted October 18, 2004 Report Share Posted October 18, 2004 ***I made it up as a kind of a joke.*** Very funny, but this can be misleading. I have tubelight sense of humor, and until told I don't understand if it is a joke. ***Your right we cant know everything, but it fun to try*** Not fun, but necessity. We must try to expand our consciousness. If we can learn why should we not? But to understand things which are beyond our grasp for now, would be only speculating. When we reach a certain level of consciousness maybe we will be able to discover some of the truths. regards, mini Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pankaja_Dasa Posted October 18, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 18, 2004 Thiestji I've cracked it. Krishna can create space. Right close this Thread down now everything is solved, JAYA Bishnu Maharaja Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted October 19, 2004 Report Share Posted October 19, 2004 Krsna can and has created everything including time and space. I find it interesting but not surprising that the thread was about the spiritual world expanding but we couldn't even speculate on that so we went for the material world instead. hehe That problem is sure to arise as we try to impose our concept of size onto the spiritual world like "how big is it?let me get out my tape measure and see" Reminds me of when the cowherd boys brought the matter of Krsna eating clay to Mother Yashoda's attention. She checked His lotus mouth for evidence and saw all the universes manifested inside. No need to try to figure out how it could all possibly fit into one little boy. That would be going backward for us. We accept it as a blissful reality. Another of Krsna's wonderful pastimes with His devotees. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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