mini Posted October 20, 2004 Report Share Posted October 20, 2004 ***It is definitely a possibility.*** Until I know the truth, any theory is as possible as the other, and as impossible as the other. All I can say is that the whole creation is planned and runs according to an order, and there can be only some fixed law behind it. Otherwise there would be mishaps every other day, planets colliding into each other, Sun not rising as it does, etc, etc. The laws in higher dimensions can be known only by a conscious soul, and I am not that, and it is no use speculating. But yes, this thread is more interesting than Discovery Channel!! /images/graemlins/smile.gif mini Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinash Posted October 20, 2004 Report Share Posted October 20, 2004 You mean to say the moon is a projection of the real moon which is actually farther than Sun?? I am not saying that it must be true. I am just talking of possibilities. If A is closer to you than B is in a given set of dimensions, then the same need not be true in another set of dimensions. It is possible that in another set of dimensions B is closer. At the same time, it is also possible that in both set of dimensions, A is closer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kulapavana Posted October 20, 2004 Report Share Posted October 20, 2004 as I mentioned before, the numbers in Bhagavatam relate to the comparative elevation of particular planes of existence with respect to Garbodhaka ocean and each other. they are NOT linear distances between planets. linear distances between planets vary tremendously depending on their orbital movement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinash Posted October 20, 2004 Report Share Posted October 20, 2004 What is comparative elevation between two planets with respect to each other? Is it how high one is from another? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kulapavana Posted October 20, 2004 Report Share Posted October 20, 2004 all planes of existence (not exactly planets) are described in relation to their height above the Garbodhaka ocean (which is filling little more than half the Universe). thus we have the lower (Bhur), middle (Bhuvah), and higher (Svah) "planets", or planes of existence. The pole star is the "up", the oppposite is where the Garbhodaka ocean is situated, or "down". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinash Posted October 20, 2004 Report Share Posted October 20, 2004 Bhagavatam mentions the heights of various mountains, e.g., Himalayas. Are these heights also from Garbodhak ocean? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kulapavana Posted October 20, 2004 Report Share Posted October 20, 2004 the height of the mountains is related to the plane of existence they are situated on. however, Himalayas exist past our dimension as well, and go to much greater heights there. that dimensional split in Himalayas is also reflected in tibetan tradition. there are several published accounts of monks visiting the higher himalayan realm dating to as recent as 100 years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinash Posted October 20, 2004 Report Share Posted October 20, 2004 Bhagavatam says that Moon is farther than the Sun is. How can this be explained? Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pankaja_Dasa Posted October 20, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 20, 2004 As the Ages progress our vision gets dull {because of impurity}. All that matter can't be doing any good. Otherwise if we were pure we could percieve. Just as Transcendentalists can percieve the soul of the Universe within their hearts as Paramatama. Hare Krishna! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kulapavana Posted October 20, 2004 Report Share Posted October 20, 2004 again, it is actually not "further" but "higher". look at these verses closely. Srila Prabhupada wanted his scientifically inclined disciples to study the Vedas and eventually come up with a Vedic model of the Universe. He himself was not all that interested in the subject and merely refered his disciples to further study of the Vedas when they pressed him for details. It is a very, very esoteric subject and even after many years of study his disciples only scratched the surface of it. we are used to seeing the Universe in purely mechanistic way, as planets orbiting around the sun. however, there is much, much more to it than that. Even the material scientists are starting to see space as multidimensional and non-linear (or at least having a curviture). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mini Posted October 20, 2004 Report Share Posted October 20, 2004 ***As the Ages progress our vision gets dull {because of impurity}. All that matter can't be doing any good.*** OK , we can't see Rahu because our vision is dulled !! Kalyug !! Ghor Kalyug !! What next ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted October 20, 2004 Report Share Posted October 20, 2004 Even the material scientists are starting to see space as multidimensional and non-linear (or at least having a curviture). Yes, membranes or branes as they say. See the article Gauracandra posted about branes and string theory. But are we forcing that explanation onto the Bhagavatam? Was it really referring to string theory etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kulapavana Posted October 20, 2004 Report Share Posted October 20, 2004 "But are we forcing that explanation onto the Bhagavatam? Was it really referring to string theory etc." as a former translator of several Cantos of Srimad Bhagavatam I can tell you that you have to understand the verse before you can translate it for others. in some ways the language barriers ARE formidable. for example: how would you explain modern technology using 16th century English with it's limited vocabulary? which word would you use for "computer"? Vedas were written down during the time when original Vedic civilization was LONG FORGOTTEN and the language reflects that as well. if you are merely satisfied repeating verses you dont understand it is OK to do just that. but if you want to actually build a model the Vedic concept of the Universe you are FORCED to do much, much more than be a parrot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mini Posted October 20, 2004 Report Share Posted October 20, 2004 The book by Samael Aun Weor , "Yes, there is Hell, Yes, there is Devil, Yes, There is Karma" explains nine heavens. They are namely : Moon, Mercury, Venus, Sun, Mars, Jupiter,Saturn, Uranus and Neptune." , in that order.But all these heavens are in higher dimensions naturally. This has been explained in the chapter "Seven Cosmos". This has been also explained in Dante's Divine Comedy. Samael Aun Weor had a gift of astral projection at will and he had written several books. But it is emphasised that everyone finds out the truth by own, that is by one's own experience. I thought I was out, but ok I stay. : ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted October 20, 2004 Report Share Posted October 20, 2004 if you are merely satisfied repeating verses you dont understand it is OK to do just that. but if you want to actually build a model the Vedic concept of the Universe you are FORCED to do much, much more than be a parrot. Yes I am sure there is a lot more to it than just parroting anything. I have always been curious as to why Srila Prabhupada even wanted such a model built. Do you know? mini, you can't get out that easily. There is a certain gravitational force you must contend with. /images/graemlins/smile.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kulapavana Posted October 20, 2004 Report Share Posted October 20, 2004 Prabhupada had a grand vision for his movement: rebuilding of the Vedic civilization. And that includes uncovering of the lost scientific vedic knowledge as well. he definitely did not want us to just mooch off Indian community to simply get by... I know that this grand vision has been scaled down recently (all the way down to basic survival) but some of us still keep on daydreaming /images/graemlins/smile.gif actually, my main interest is in the social realm of Vedic reconstruction. I may be one of the last surviving varnashrama revolutionaries /images/graemlins/wink.gif but as a scientist I get involved in the "5th canto discussions" almost against my better judgement... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pankaja_Dasa Posted October 20, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 20, 2004 http://srimadbhagavatam.com/5/en1 SB 5.20: Studying the Structure of the Universe SB 5.21: The Movements of the Sun SB 5.22: The Orbits of the Planets SB 5.23: The Sisumara Planetary Systems SB 5.24: The Subterranean Heavenly Planets Seeya in 100 years lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted October 20, 2004 Report Share Posted October 20, 2004 actually, my main interest is in the social realm of Vedic reconstruction. I may be one of the last surviving varnashrama revolutionaries but as a scientist I get involved in the "5th canto discussions" almost against my better judgement... Yes Prabhupada thought very big. Unfortunately no one can keep up with his efforts to bring those thoughts to fruition. I don't think much about varnashrama. I am such a mixed mode guy I am more like a mongrel anyway. bit of 'dis, bit of 'dat. But there are several issues that seem to me to be most important to the larger social body and its need to be redirected towards spiritual goals and I speak out on those. But to be honest I cringe at the thought of trying to present the ideas of the universal structure to scientific community as facts. Like the conception of the sun and moon being almost in the center of the universe. Can't we just give the present scientist credit for how they have expanded the knowledge of such things? Admitting that doesn't diminish one's Krsna consciousness in the slightest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pankaja_Dasa Posted October 20, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 20, 2004 But to be honest I cringe at the thought of trying to present the ideas of the universal structure to scientific community as facts. Go Thiest May the Knowledge be with you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kulapavana Posted October 20, 2004 Report Share Posted October 20, 2004 "But to be honest I cringe at the thought of trying to present the ideas of the universal structure to scientific community as facts. Like the conception of the sun and moon being almost in the center of the universe" first, we have to understand the Universe ourselves. then we can present it not to material scientists (they will never accept it from us), but to open minded seekers of transcendence. that will be enough. food for thought: if you place one candle in a room with mirrored walls you will see billions of candles, some trillions of miles "away" from you. if the space indeed is curved and "folds" on itself, some of the things you see are time and light copies of the some objects. our material knowledge of the Universe past Solar system is solely based on the analysis of light and radio waves (waves we dont even understand very well). in the coming years we will probably see many established theories fall apart. they always do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinash Posted October 21, 2004 Report Share Posted October 21, 2004 if you place one candle in a room with mirrored walls you will see billions of candles, some trillions of miles "away" from you. If I am staying near the candle, then what you say is true if the walls are trillions of miles away from the candle. Of course, I am assuming plane mirrors. If the mirrors themselves are curved, then it is a different matter. if the space indeed is curved and "folds" on itself, some of the things you see are time and light copies of the some objects. I agree. In fact, such a phenomenon has been observed, and has been termed as gravitational lensing. You mentioned "universe". What does Bhagavatam call as universe? Is it everything that can be detected including the galaxies that are a few billion light years away from us? Is it only Mily way. Or, is it something entirely different? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinash Posted October 21, 2004 Report Share Posted October 21, 2004 Can't we just give the present scientist credit for how they have expanded the knowledge of such things? Admitting that doesn't diminish one's Krsna consciousness in the slightest. I strongly agree. Often Science is criticised by saying that it is often proved to be wrong. But, it is a fact that it has been proved useful to us to a very large extent. Moroever, just because we are able to find some wrong things in present day Science, it does not prove that what we say is correct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinash Posted October 21, 2004 Report Share Posted October 21, 2004 Vedas were written down during the time when original Vedic civilization was LONG FORGOTTEN and the language reflects that as well. Do you mean to say that Vedas, as we see in the present form, were written at a time when the Vedic civilization was forgotten? Does it not mean that Vedas in the current form are not Truth if the ancient Vedic civiization knew the truth? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinash Posted October 21, 2004 Report Share Posted October 21, 2004 higher, not further Moon is higher than Sun with respect to what? Garbodhak ocean? Jambudvipa? Both? Something else? To find out which one is higher, in which direction should we meaure the distance? After all, height is also a kind of distance, though measured in a particular direction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pankaja_Dasa Posted October 21, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 21, 2004 Vedas were written down during the time when original Vedic civilization was LONG FORGOTTEN and the language reflects that as well. Are you saying the Vedas was written for time and circumstance? Kali-yuga? The Vedas of Satya-yuga would look different to our present one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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