So Prabhu, what do you think of the model of the new Mayapur Temple ???

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

 

And if that building roads over samadhis is factual then what the ___K is that all about? You can't do that. Even if you hold a different spiritual viewpoint and the landrights you still can't do that.

 

 

The widening of the road leading to Mayapur is a project of the West Bengal government and has nothing to do with ISKCON. The project is likely opposed by most of the devotees in Navadvipa including ISKCON.

 

The West Bengal government is a communist government and they do not care much about holy places, samadhis, etc.

 

As of now ISKCON still has not been able to get government approval to build the temple, as the government doesn't like religious organizations. In response several other state governments have offered ISKCON huge pieces of land to construct the same temple within their state. The Orissa government has offered 600 acres of land at Puri on the beach, and 400 acres of land has been given in Ujain for a similar project. Several other state governments have offered similar lands if ISKCON will shift the project to their state.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

 

"Sure, go ahead and bulldoze other temples and countless samadhis to build our temple."

 

 

As far as I have seen in the plan for the Mayapur project, no temples or samadhis are scheduled to be bulldozed. The construction site is in the middle of a huge empty pond with nothing around for several kilometers other than ISKCON buildings.

 

I think devotees are mixing up two issues, namely:

 

1) the West Bengal government's plan to widen the road that goes past Mayapur and build a bridge across the Ganga to Navadvipa; which will break some temples and samadhis.

 

2) the construction of ISKCON's temple which is situated in an isolated spot with no temples or samadhis located nearby.

 

I don't know why the government has proposed to widen the road, but it is likely just a matter of development. They want to build a bridge across the ganga to link the cities across it (Navadvipa etc.) by road to Krishna Nagar.

[vijay]

Thank you prabhu for sharing that, at least some devotees have actually looked into the facts rather than perpetuating ill feelings on rumours and myths.

[theist]

Thanks JNdas. Yes the two seem to have been merged. I hope your reply gets circulated as widely as this rumour to prevent any more bad feelings from germinating.

[stonehearted]

Vijay, I live on an island in the middle of the ocean. I only know what I hear from others. To the extent my remarks respond to and amplify rumors and conjecture, I regret that sincerely. Please note that my "criticism" is liberally laced with qualification and hedging. I respectfully decline to swallow ISKCON's PR whole, though. I've been around too long, seen too much of it (and what was really going on behind it), and I know too much about spin. They're clearly doing more than this wretched soul can, and I appreciate that. Although I'm always happy when I meet these devotees, I'm careful about whose company I keep closely.

 

Yes, I have an idea of who is involved. I have also been watching this process from a distance for a very long time, and I wonder if there may not have been more productive ways to spend all that time, energy, and money. Time will tell.

 

I'm not psychic, but I am a very sophisticated reader (I do it for a living). I'm also, as I have admitted before, sometimes not as successful at madking my arrogance as I'd like. Nevertheless, for me to pretend that I have no experience would be false humility (which would be just as transparent and even more ludicrous than my arrogance), and to act as if I had made no progress after 35 years of faithful practice would be an affront to my spiritual master, implying that the process he has given is impotent.

 

I would only suggest that you be as discerning about what you hear from those with official positions as you are of cast-offs like me. Do you also object when they criticize other devotees, such as Narayana Maharaja or others who preach outside ISKCON, or who have been driven from ISKCON by the character, policies, and activities of some of ISKCON's leaders? From what I've read here, I doubt it. But note that the real consequence of criticizing devotees is not leprosy or being chased by mytical buzz-saws, but Bhakti-devi's ignoring us and giving us something other than Krishna prema (usually things like kanaka, kamini, and pratistha instead).

 

You wrote above: "Anyway enough of this, I do sincerley apologise for any offences I do feel bad everytime I speak to senior devotees in this way, but this is outwieghed by the annoyance i feel when they critise other devotees." It's really interesting to read a "sincere" apology that is then retracted by justifying the so-called offense. I don't need to be psychic to understand the truth here. Yes, you're better than I am; take comfort in that.

[stonehearted]

Thanks, jndas, for clarifying the issues here. I accept your correction gratefully. It would be good if someone who's not too close to these things, from either side, could provide links to, or digests of, reports on these events. My work and sadhana just don't leave me time to research all this on my own, so I depend on others for information about such things.

[vijay]

.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[vijay]

My point is a very simple one, I havent ask you to pretend to not have experience etc just dont use that as a justification for generalised critisism. Im sure you know what goes on in iskcon and your may be very learned, and you know what has gone on, and you may know about iskcon spin, im really not concerned with that. The point is that is no excuse for your statements about the management on a ego trip. Very simple.

 

And believe me I dont agree with everything iskcon has said and done and im very familiar with the turbulent history and mistakes of some present and past iskcon leaders but thank you for your concern. this is drifting form the simple point.

 

"Do you also object when they criticize other devotees, such as Narayana Maharaja or others who preach outside ISKCON, or who have been driven from ISKCON by the character, policies, and activities of some of ISKCON's leaders? From what I've read here, I doubt it. "

 

Again off the topic whether i object to some iskcon leaders or not, your point was out of order. Anyway if you want to know - I've always questioned my superiors over issues. I also make devotees aware of the need to to not follow blindly the cheaters will get cheated in or outside of iskcon, when i hear critisism of any senior vaishnava in or outside iskcon i do object to it. Im in favour of what the truth is not fiction or someones speculation of others intentions.

 

"some of ISKCON's leaders? From what I've read here, I doubt it" At least your not making a sure statement this time.

Fortunately your wrong, I also choose to stay away from certain vaishnavas although i am happy to see them when i do, and I do not tolerate unfounded critisism of vaishnavas either from iskcon or from GM.

 

"It's really interesting to read a "sincere" apology that is then retracted by justifying the so-called offense. I don't need to be psychic to understand the truth here. Yes, you're better than I am; take comfort in that. "

 

I know your a good reader and writer of rebutals as youve said before but may be your reading too deeply in to this, my point is i sincerly feel bad, but not so bad that il not say anything to vaishnava apradha. Simple.

 

"I don't need to be psychic to understand the truth here. Yes, you're better than I am; take comfort in that. "

 

I dont know where youre getting that from sounds quite childish to me, ive never thought your better than me in the first place. We're all spirit soul on different journeys to krishna at different levels learning from each other in this life youve been given alot of mercy make the best use of it. Im confused of how you got "you're better than I am; take comfort in that." is that humility or sarcasm or something else?

 

Anyway stiking to the point of all this and not getting distracted by all the side issues you are raising for some reason. My point is simple you have no right no matter what you have seen and how naive and ISKCONzied you think I am and the rest of the issues you have raised, to critise devotees when you have no idea (or you have some vague idea) who they are, and speculate on thier intentions as doing service for egoistic purposes. You dont have that Adhikar.

 

You'll probably bring up more side issues about my intentions etc, well think what you like my point is simple. Dont generalise a group of devotees trying to do a service lumping them all together (not fully knowing who they are) And then critisising them by making up thier intentions and motives for them.

 

Very simple for the simple.

 

"But note that the real consequence of criticizing devotees is not leprosy or being chased by mytical buzz-saws, but Bhakti-devi's ignoring us and giving us something other than Krishna prema (usually things like kanaka, kamini, and pratistha instead)."

 

Im gald you know the philosophy behind critisism but unfortunately you either dont know when your doing it or think your justified to do it for some reason or another.

 

This has been my main/only issue.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

" I also choose to stay away from certain vaishnavas although i am happy to see them when i do"

 

if you and your organization build a temple with a feeling like that.. i vote instead for a swimming pool, tennis field and soccer field.. and i am considering also the idea of a cinema and discoteque.. it will be surely less offensive

 

Sri Vaisnava Pranama

 

vancha-kalpatarubhyas ca krpa-sindhubhya eve ca

patitanam pavanebhyo vaisnavebhyo namo namah

 

I offer my respectful obeisances unto all the Vaisnava devotees of the Lord. They are just like desire trees who can fulfill the desires of everyone, and they are full of compassion for the fallen conditioned souls.

 

they can fulfill your desires, they are full of compassion for you and you run away..and when you run away from vaishnavas you run away from krsna

 

so what's the use of a new temple if you run away from krsna?

 

--

 

please respect the position of stonehearted prabhu... he's senior to you, godbrother of your spiritual master.. he's ISKCON exactly like the present leaders are ISKCON.. there's no problem if you have different opinions but do not be so heavy

 

pay obeisances and try to respect the proper etiquette

[stonehearted]

I don't run away from any Vaishnavas; in fact, I think I pointed out that I'm always happy to see them (except child moleters and muderers). However, I won't go out of my way to seek the company of those who have made a career of offending other vaishanvas or vaishnava groups. I have very good relationships with all the devotees I meet, even those whose policies and behavior leave something to be desired. I have very good relationships with several GBC members and with several prominent sannyasis, some of whom I feel have big problems. In fact, you may be surprised, Vijay, at how easy I am to get along with. I wouldn't be surprised, though, if you and I got along quite well if we were to meet each other.

 

I don't have an organization, but those of us who live here do have a temple where all Vaishanvas are welcome. They are not welcome, however, to come there to criticize others. We have had preachers from ISKCON (most recently Bhakti-Tirtha Swami) and other missions come, and they all seem to like the mood. You're welcome to come, too. (But don't come and preach from Sivarama Maharja's book.) /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[stonehearted]

Guest:

please respect the position of stonehearted prabhu... he's senior to you, godbrother of your spiritual master.. he's ISKCON exactly like the present leaders are ISKCON.. there's no problem if you have different opinions but do not be so heavy

 

pay obeisances and try to respect the proper etiquette

 

 

I don't think it's necessary for anyone to castigate Vijay for our exchanges. He's perfectly right to object when he feels I commit offenses against Vaisnavas, and his point about overgeneralization, which has indeed been his consistent complaint against me, is perfectly in order. My only problem is that I don't have details about this topic (indeed, it seems I may have been misled by some misunderstanding of what's going on), and he wasn't satisfied with the specific examples I gave of my problems with Sivarama Maharaja's booklet. In fact, I prefer his candor to phony obsequiousness.

 

And I think it may not be exactly correct to say that I'm ISKCON exactly like the present leaders are ISKCON. Although I have great respect and affection for many of ISKCON's leaders (and "followers," although I'd submit there should be none--we're meant to be leaders of society), I have had little confidence in the general trend of leadership since the '80s. Since late in '85, I have not for a minute considered myself under the supervision of any member of the GBC, although I took a great deal of responsibility at the ISKCON center where I lived most recently. I worshiped the temple's Govardhana-shila for 9 years and did other Deity service. I also cooked for feasts, gave classes regularly (because the temple leaders repeatedly asked me to), and served for several years on the temple's board of directors.

 

I'm not unhappy that I live where I do, and that's partly because none of the GBC seems to care that we're here, and they therefore won't come and try to claim us, or run us. They seem to be under the misapprehension that all of us here chase sex and cannabis. In fact, most of us are stricter about our sadhana than many temple devotees I've known, and have been for decades. We also preach and distibute transcendental literature. And, as I mentioned, we always welcome Gaudiya vaishnava preachers and hear from them ardently.

 

Short version: get off Vijay's case.

 

And please call me Babhru.

[vijay]

"if you and your organization build a temple with a feeling like that.. i vote instead for a swimming pool, tennis field and soccer field.. and i am considering also the idea of a cinema and discoteque.. it will be surely less offensive"

 

Whatever, if you want me to clarify what ive said then say so, dont try and fill the gaps with your imagination.

[vijay]

Sounds like you have a good mood there, I personally have no problem working with and aquiring knowledge form any humble sinciere vaishnava whether he is in GM, pusti marg or a sri vaishnava, I do have a problem with vaishnavas who constantly minimise my siksa guru srila prabhupada and others who i take to be my guru as lesser and even deviants without any grounds except for the fact that they are not going to thier guru. I will stay away from these types of devotees for my own good as i will end up offending them and maybe others. I ended up using the siksa guru book by sivarama swami as there were devotees claiming that all gurus in iskcon must listen to another senior devotee else they are deviants, which i felt not fair and not backed up by enough evidence hence using arguments to give the other side. I personally have a friend who I dont see much now since he lives in india and he is a sanyas diciple of narshinga maharaj, and I do service at an iskcon temple in london where diciples of other maths also come and do service who generally dont minimise prabhupada and other vaishnavas (although i once debated someone who was doing this to new commers comming to the temple, ie prabhupada hasnt given the full truth, these gurus are all neophyte etc I forget his name he was suppose to be quite senior but forgot the ettiquite of the temple).

 

Anyway that discussion we've already had. And if I do come to hawaii (is that right?) It would be a pleasure to visit and ill keep away the siksa guru book if you dont make sweeping generalisations (-:

[Guest guest]

"And I think it may not be exactly correct to say that I'm ISKCON exactly like the present leaders are ISKCON"

 

my point simply was that you belong to the prabhupada's discipleship in the same authoritative way.. so you heve to be respected in the same way

 

i have appreciated your answer .. obeisances... hare krishna

[stonehearted]

Vijay:

Anyway that discussion we've already had. And if I do come to hawaii (is that right?) It would be a pleasure to visit and ill keep away the siksa guru book if you dont make sweeping generalisations (-:

 

 

You and I wouldn't necessarily have to discuss such things at all. There's a universe of Krishna-katha we could explore. However, in the interest of full disclosure, our "group," to the extent that it is one, includes disciples of Srila Prabhupada who maintain a sense of identity with ISKCON, disciples of Prabhupada who are somewhat independent (although we may have an affinity for one mission or another), devotees who are disciples of gurus outside ISKCON (primarily Bodhayan Maharaja and Paramadvaiti Maharaja), and a good number of devotees who are influenced to one degree or another by the group to which I'm guessing you refer above. When the guru of that group is not around, the local devotees are pretty mellow as long as no one takes it on themselves to criticize him. But when he comes to Hilo, a huge crowd comes also, and too many of them seem inclined to proselytize in the manner you describe. We have trouble with some of these devotees every year. And sometimes, even when he's not here, one prominent woman in their group may sometimes speak too zealously when she visits. Life is an adventure, and it's no different just because we live on the Big Island.

[vijay]

Babhru prabhu, if i do come half way round the world next year I would much rather discuss krsna katha and take as much association from you and others as i can, the last thing i would want is to spoil my journey discussing useless politics, when theres so many senior vaishnavas there to learn from, i already have enough gunk in me as it is, thanks for the warning though.