Srimad Bhagavatam?, impersonalist?

[Guest guest]

SB 11.24.2: Originally, during the Kṛta-yuga, when all men were very expert in spiritual discrimination, and also previous to that, during the period of annihilation, the seer existed alone, nondifferent from the seen object.

 

SB 11.24.3: That one Absolute Truth, remaining free from material dualities and inaccessible to ordinary speech and mind, divided Himself into two categories — the material nature and the living entities who are trying to enjoy the manifestations of that nature.

According to this 2 texts appears that:

 

1.- the seer existed alone, nondifferent from the seen object.(IMPERSONALIST FILOSOPHY)

and

2.-divided Himself into two categories — the material nature and the living entities who are trying to enjoy the manifestations of that nature.(impersonalist filosophy God and everything is one and the living entityes are not eternal becouse they have a beguining)

 

 

[theist]

One and different.

 

not

 

One or different.

[Guest guest]

Read the purports. Do not try to intrepret on your own.

[Guest guest]

First of all the purports are not of srila Prabhupada, second the purport have no coneccion with my point.

[Guest guest]

do you know what purport means?

[gHari]

Some souls although unborn are 'asleep', dormant within the form of Mahavishnu during each of His inhalations, waiting again to be bewildered in various situations within the material world that will eventually manifest during the Lord's next exhalation. During this dormant period and during the Satya Yuga of purity everything, not only the spiritual planets, but also any material planets are completely spiritual in perfect relation to Sri Krsna.

 

Know very definitely that there is nothing other than Krsna. This includes us. However, for His enjoyment, Krsna sees us as separate entities. How He does this and how we qualify to be seen by Him are the secrets of existence.

 

Don't put much faith in the ability of words and logic when leaving the confines of space and time. We must recognize our inability to understand. Only then in humility will glimpses of answers find us.

Sri Krsna is both <font color="blue">The Cause of All Causes</font> and simultaneously <font color="blue">All That Is</font> as He Himself confirms in Bhagavad-gita 7.19 during His Lord Krsna incarnation:<BLOCKQUOTE><CENTER><font color="RED">bahUnAM janmanAm ante

jJAnavAn mAM prapadyate

vAsudevaH sarvam iti

sa mahAtmA su-durlabhaH

</center>

bahUnAm--many; janmanAm--repeated births and deaths; ante--after; jJAna-vAn--one who is in full knowledge; mAm--unto Me; prapadyate--surrenders; vAsudevaH--the Personality of Godhead, KRSNa; sarvam--everything; iti--thus; saH--that; mahA-AtmA--great soul; su-durlabhaH--very rare to see.

</font>

After many births and deaths, he who is actually in knowledge surrenders unto Me, knowing Me to be the cause of all causes and all that is. Such a great soul is very rare.

 

PURPORT

The living entity, while executing devotional service or transcendental rituals after many, many births, may actually become situated in transcendental pure knowledge that the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the ultimate goal of spiritual realization. In the beginning of spiritual realization, while one is trying to give up one's attachment to materialism, there is some leaning towards impersonalism, but when one is further advanced he can understand that there are activities in the spiritual life and that these activities constitute devotional service. Realizing this, he becomes attached to the Supreme Personality of Godhead and surrenders to Him. At such a time one can understand that Lord SrI KRSNa's mercy is everything, that He is the cause of all causes and that this material manifestation is not independent from Him. He realizes the material world to be a perverted reflection of spiritual variegatedness and realizes that in everything there is a relationship with the Supreme Lord KRSNa. Thus he thinks of everything in relation to VAsudeva, or SrI KRSNa. Such a universal vision of VAsudeva precipitates one's full surrender to the Supreme Lord SrI KRSNa as the highest goal. Such surrendered great souls are very rare.

 

This verse is very nicely explained in the Third Chapter (verses 14 and 15) of the SvetAzvatara UpaniSad:

<CENTER>

<font color="RED">sahasra-zIrSA puruSaH

sahasrAkSaH sahasra-pAt

sa bhUmiM vizvato vRtvA-

tyAtiSThad dazAGgulam

 

puruSa evedaM sarvaM

yad bhUtaM yac ca bhavyam

utAmRtatvasyezAno

yad annenAtirohati

</center></font>

In the ChAndogya UpaniSad (5.1.15) it is said, na vai vAco na cakSUMSi na zrotrANi na manAMsIty AcakSate prANa iti evAcakSate prANo hy evaitAni sarvANi bhavanti: "In the body of a living being neither the power to speak, nor the power to see, nor the power to hear, nor the power to think is the prime factor; it is life which is the center of all activities." Similarly Lord VAsudeva, or the Personality of Godhead, Lord SrI KRSNa, is the prime entity in everything. In this body there are powers of speaking, of seeing, of hearing, of mental activities, etc. But these are not important if not related to the Supreme Lord. And because VAsudeva is all-pervading and everything is VAsudeva, the devotee surrenders in full knowledge (cf. Bhagavad-gItA 7.17 and 11.40).</BLOCKQUOTE>

Srila Prabhupada adds in the Srimad Bhagavatam 3.1.2 Purport:<blockquote>According to the GauDIya acintya-bhedAbheda-tattva philosophy, anything which satisfies the senses of the Supreme Lord, SrI KRSNa, is also SrI KRSNa. For example, SrI VRndAvana-dhAma is nondifferent from SrI KRSNa (tad-dhAma vRndAvanam) because at VRndAvana the Lord enjoys the transcendental bliss of His internal potency. Similarly, the house of the PANDavas was also the source of transcendental bliss for the Lord. It is mentioned here that the Lord identified the house with His own Self. Thus the house of the PANDavas was as good as VRndAvana, and Vidura should not have given up that place of transcendental bliss. Therefore the reason for his quitting the house was not exactly family misunderstanding; rather, Vidura took the opportunity to meet RSi Maitreya and discuss transcendental knowledge. For a saintly person like Vidura, any disturbance due to worldly affairs is insignificant. Such disturbances, however, are sometimes favorable for higher realization, and therefore Vidura took advantage of a family misunderstanding in order to meet Maitreya RSi.</blockquote>

 

Sri Krsna's EXISTENCE is independent; He just Is. Our existence is dependent on Him, on His EXISTENCE, as pearls are strung on a thread [Bg 7.7]. Krsna is simultaneously the thread and the necklace - the cause of all causes, the Primal Person, the adi purusam, and yet simultaneously He is all that is, was or will be.

 

[gHari]

Bob gets some perfect answers from Srila Prabhupada in "Perfect Questions Perfect Answers":<blockquote>SrIla PrabhupAda: Yes. Our knowledge is perfect. If I say that heat is the energy of KRSNa, you cannot deny it, because it is not your energy. In your body there is some certain amount of heat. Similarly, heat is someone's energy. And who is that person? That is KRSNa. KRSNa says, "Yes, it is My energy." So my knowledge is perfect. Because I take the version of the greatest scientist, I am the greatest scientist. I may be a fool personally, but because I take knowledge from the greatest scientist, I am the greatest scientist. I have no difficulty.

BoB: Excuse me?

SrIla PrabhupAda: I have no difficulty in becoming the greatest scientist because I take the knowledge from the greatest scientist. [There is a long pause.] "This earth, water, fire, air, ether, mind, intelligence and ego--they are My eight separated energies."

BoB: They are separated energies?

SrIla PrabhupAda: Yes. Just like this milk. What is this milk? The separated energy of the cow. [syAmasundara and Bob, stunned, laugh in realization.] Is it not? It is the manifestation of the separated energy of the cow.

SyAmasundara: Is it like a by-product?

SrIla PrabhupAda: Yes.

BoB: So, what is the significance of this energy's being separated from KRSNa?

SrIla PrabhupAda: "Separated" means that this is made out of the body of the cow but it is not the cow. That is separation.

BoB: So, this earth and all is made out of KRSNa but it is not KRSNa?

SrIla PrabhupAda: It is not KRSNa. Or, you can say, KRSNa and not KRSNa simultaneously. That is our philosophy. One and different. You cannot say that these things are different from KRSNa, because without KRSNa they have no existence. At the same time, you cannot say, "Then let me worship water. Why KRSNa? The pantheists say that because everything is God, whatever we do is God worship. This is MAyAvAda philosophy--that because everything is made of God, therefore everything is God. But our philosophy is that everything is God but also not God.

BoB: So what on earth is God? Is there anything on earth that is God?

SrIla PrabhupAda: Yes. Because everything is made out of the energy of God. But that does not mean that by worshiping anything you are worshiping God.

BoB: So what is on earth that is not mAyA [illusion]? It is...

SrIla PrabhupAda: MAyA means "energy."

BoB: It means energy?

SrIla PrabhupAda: Yes. MAyA--and another meaning is "illusion." So foolish persons accept the energy as the energetic. That is mAyA. Just like sunshine. Sunshine enters your room. Sunshine is the energy of the sun. But because the sunshine enters your room, you cannot say that the sun

SrIla PrabhupAda: Just wire.

BoB: So if I build a statue of KRSNa, it is not KRSNa unless...

SrIla PrabhupAda: It is KRSNa. But you have to know the process of understanding that it is KRSNa. It is KRSNa.

BoB: It is not just earth and mud.

SrIla PrabhupAda: No. Earth has no separate existence without KRSNa. KRSNa says, "My energy." You cannot separate the energy from the energetic. It is not possible. You cannot separate heat from fire. But fire is different from the heat, and heat is different from the fire. You are taking heat; that does not mean you are touching fire. Fire, in spite of emanating heat, keeps its identity. Similarly, although KRSNa, by His different energies, is creating everything, He remains KRSNa. The MAyAvAdI philosophers think that if KRSNa is everything, then KRSNa's separate identity is lost. That is material thinking. For example, by drinking this milk, little by little, when I finish, there is no more milk; it has gone to my belly. KRSNa is not like that. He is omnipotent. We are utilizing His energy continually; still He is there, present. Just like a man begetting children unlimitedly, but the man is there. A crude example. It's not that because he has produced hundreds of children, he is finished. So, similarly, God or KRSNa, in spite of His unlimited number of children, is there.

pUrNasya pUrNam AdAya

pUrNam evAvaziSyate

"Because He is the complete whole, even though so many complete units emanate from Him, He remains the complete balance." This is KRSNa consciousness. KRSNa is never finished. KRSNa is so powerful. Therefore He is all-attractive. This is one side of the display of KRSNa's energy. Similarly, He has unlimited energies. This study of KRSNa's energy is only one side, or a portion only. So in this way, if you go on studying KRSNa, that is KRSNa consciousness. It is not a bogus thing--"maybe,perhaps not." Absolutely! It is!

SyAmasundara: And the study itself is never finished.

SrIla PrabhupAda: No. How can it be? KRSNa has unlimited energy.</blockquote>