I've converted to Islam!

[Guest guest]

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/10/international/middleeast/10islam.html?

 

Muslim Scholars Increasingly Debate Unholy War

By NEIL MacFARQUHAR (NY Times)

 

[Guest guest]

"It is like this now because for centuries Muslims have been told that Islam was spread by the sword, that all Arab countries and even Spain were captured by the sword and we are proud of that," he [Muhammad Shahrour] said. "In the minds of ordinary people, people on the street, the religion of Islam is the religion of the sword. This is the culture, and we have to change it."

 

 

[Guest guest]

Islam means surrender not peace. There is no peace in Islam, the world is proof. There is not a single non-Islamic country that borders onto an Islamic country that does not have conflict.

Many Islamic countries have conflict within themselves.

Islam pretends that it is under constant attack from the West and East, but in reality it attacks and claims to be doing so in self-defence??? the offensive is never defensive.

The very meaning of Islam, surrender, suggests war.

Mohammad killed the Jews of Medina, enslaved their children and raped their women.

 

Islam took most of its lands through conquest and you talk about Hinduism being imperialistic. A religion that has rarely moved beyond the borders of India.

You talk about migration as if it is an 'evil' then perhaps all the muslims in the world would like to return to Mecca and Medina where they came from???

 

Finally, the Quran states that God sends only prophets to people in the tongue of that people. Mohammad didn't even speak Arabic, his language is dead. Nobody survives who still speaks that language in everyday life. Even if you take Arabic, then if you are not an Arab then Islam is forbidden to you. The early histories of Islam is proof of this doctrine, when Persia was taken the Persians were discouraged in converting to Islam. It was seen to be both spritually and more profitable not to seek their conversion.

 

Do we eat the apple because we will it? or does the apple will us to eat it?

[harishkumar09]

I am alarmed at many HKs being tolerant towards Islam.Just because its dualistic.Every dualist is not angel.

 

Madhva has clearly rubbished semetic faiths as demonic.He would have decimated the invading islamic armies , so Krishna made him born as a Sannyasi , so that the flow of Kali Yuga is not interrupted.

 

Vyasathirtha , a great commentator of Madhva work personally guided Krishna Devaraya against his war against the sultans and declared that "All life is warfare".

 

Plus we all know Caitanya too dared the Islamic leaders at that time who tried to stop chanting.

 

Even a neo-advaitin like Vivekananda who championed unity of religions has called Prophet Mohammad a mad man , who went mad after practicing yoga without a Guru.

 

He gives the example of Mohammad to warn people of dire consequences if they practiced Yoga on their own.

 

Advaitins are generally tolerant towards all religions.But even Vivekananda could not help condemning the Prophet of Islam.

 

This clearly shows it is a demonic religion.

[sumedh]

Hare Krishna and dandavats

 

Islam is in problems due to mis-interpretation of its scriptures or due to no one being able to properly know its essence. The true essence of the Quran has been revealed to be vaishnava-dharma (though not in so many words as in vedic/vaishnava sastras) by none other than Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. Just read the following from Jaiva-dharma (Chapter 5) before making such harsh statements.

 

 

Lahiri: According to your ideology, what is meant by mukti?

 

The Kazi replied: What you refer to as the jiva, individual soul, we call ruh. This ruh is found in two conditions: ruh-mujarrad, the conscious or liberated soul; and ruh-tarkibi, the conditioned soul. What you refer to as spirit (cit) we call mujarrad, and what you refer to as matter (acit) we call jism. Mujarrad is beyond the limitations of time and space, whereas jism is subordinate to time and space. The ruh-tarkibi, or baddha-jiva, has a material mind and is full of ignorance (malphut) and desires. The ruh-mujarrad are pure and aloof from all these contaminations, and they reside in the spiritual abode, which is known as alam al-mashal. The ruh becomes pure through the gradual development of ishq or prema. There is no influence of jism, or matter, in that abode where Khoda (God) brought the prophet Paigambar Sahib. Yet even there, the ruh remains as a servitor (banda), and the Lord is the master. Therefore the relationship between the banda and Khoda is eternal, and mukti is actually the attainment of this relationship in its pure form. The Quran and the literature of the Sufis explain these conclusions, but not everyone can understand them. Gauranga Mahaprabhu mercifully taught Chand Kazi all these points, and since that time we have become His unalloyed bhaktas.

 

Lahiri: What is the primary teaching of the Quran?

 

Kazi: According to the Quran, the Lord's personal abode, which is the highest attainment in the spiritual world, is known as behesht. It is a fact that there is no formal worship there, yet life itself is worship (ibada). The residents of that abode are immersed in transcendental bliss simply by seeing the Lord. This is the very same teaching that has been presented by Sri Gaurangadeva.

 

Lahiri: Does the Quran accept that the Lord has a transcendental form?

 

Kazi: The Quran states that the Lord has no form. But Sri Gaurangadeva told Chand Kazi that this teaching of the Quran means that the Lord cannot have a material form. It does not preclude the existence of His pure spiritual form. Paigambar Sahib saw the divine loving form of the Lord in accordance with his level of eligibility. The transcendental moods and sentiments that are characteristic of the other rasas remained hidden from him.

 

Lahiri: What is the opinion of the Sufis in this regard?

 

Kazi: They adhere to the doctrine of ana al-haqq, which means "I am Khoda". The Sufi (aswaph) doctrine of Islam is exactly the same as the advaita-vada doctrine.

 

Lahiri: Are you a Sufi?

 

Kazi: No, we are unadulterated devotees. Gauranga is our very life.

 

 

 

Sri Gaurangadeva would not care to explain Quran this way if it was non-bonafide. Also we have direct statements of Srila Prabhupada saying that Paigambar Sahib is Guru-tattva. In addition in Bhavishya-Puraana it is stated that Lord Shiva sent him.

 

Please see it in the light that Muhammad Sahib in essence preached the vaishnava dharma (servitorship to Lord) to the kind of people that were in that place/time and turned them somewhat to Lord, you would appreciate the "tolerance" of HKs. No not tolerance (even enemies can be tolerant of one another), we should give utmost respect to Paigambar Muhammad but of course not to present day muslims who are hateful/envious of true vaishnavas.

[Guest guest]

"Plus we all know Caitanya too dared the Islamic leaders at that time who tried to stop chanting."

 

chaitanya mahaprabhu had more opposition from "hindu(caste brahmins & advaitins)" than muslims...

 

"Even a neo-advaitin like Vivekananda who championed unity of religions has called Prophet Mohammad a mad man"

 

i do not think that vivekananda has any skill, purity or knowledge to judge religious masters

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hare Krishna,

 

 

"Even a neo-advaitin like Vivekananda who championed unity of religions has called Prophet Mohammad a mad man"

 

i do not think that vivekananda has any skill, purity or knowledge to judge religious masters.

 

 

So mohamMAD is a religious master according to you. You must be MADman. Atleast Swamy Vivekananda did not ask his followers to rape captured women or go to war and plunder and take other women as booty.

 

Read the quotes from Sunnah(Muslim and Bukhari). These are quoted above. Also read quran where it says muslims can have women as war booty and sex slaves. You call a guy who wrote this pathetic book as a religious leader. You must be out of your mind or perhaps you carry just too much hatred for Advaitists that acts like rape and kidnapping of women as mentioned in quran escapes your mind.

 

I am myself a Vaishnava, but this kind of behavior from other vaishnavas makes me sick.

[sumedh]

Hare Krishna

 

Please don't be sick. We make our judgements on the basis of the judgements of our Spiritual Masters and both Sri Chaitanyadeva and Srila Prabhupada consider Paigambar Muhammad as bona-fide. I don't know enough Persian to know whether they have been interpreted incorrectly, or whether or not they have been interpolated, or they mean something different; but i would not be as indiscreet and imprudent so as to challenge the opinion of our acharyas (and Bhavishya-puraana) and accuse the character/sanity of Paigambar Muhammad.

[harishkumar09]

What guest says is true.The profound hatred the ISKCONites have for advaitins is indeed problematic.They believe that any dualist is fine , little realising that there are three kinds of bhakthi ,saatwic, rajasic and tamasic.

 

SP was on a proselitizing mission and when he was in Iran , he could not have denounced Islam and get killed , also endangering lives of Hks so he said positive things about Islam.

 

We must realsie thats just a proselitizing tactic.Your religion nothing but vaishnavism , so come to the original vaishnavism.

 

Even christians in TN say that Shaiva Siddhantam is nothing but christianity and many westerners believe Madhva was influenced by christianity , so it makes Prabhupada a christian , and they say now come to that true christianity of the Church.

 

Elsewhere SP points to the tomb worship of muslims and calls them tamasic people.

 

Generally vaishnavas have to make polite invitation to muslism to convert to our religion so SP made all those comaprisons.It should be seen in the context and not taken as final.

 

Plus taratamya or hierarchy of Angels demands that we give precedence and credence to statements of Madhva over and above all vaishnava acharyas.

 

Clearly Madhva rubbished Islam and organised military defence against it.

 

[harishkumar09]

Where has Chaitanya Mahaprabhu justified Islam ? The fact that he was open to accepting muslim devotees does not mean he approved of Islam.

 

He accepted Haridasa Thakura , because he chanted the HK Mantra 100,000 times per day , and not because he chanted Quranic Verses.

 

 

[harishkumar09]

#; but i would not be as indiscreet and imprudent so as to challenge the opinion of our acharyas (and Bhavishya-puraana) and accuse the character/sanity of Paigambar Muhammad.#

 

You must question your Acharyas.Madhva encouraged people to question him and never accept his percepts unless they were personally satisfied as regards the truth of the statements.

 

 

 

 

[gHari]

Demonstrated that the Koran teaches bhakti ultimately. He did not negate the Koran.

 

Sri Krsna Caitanya:<blockquote>

“In the Koran there are descriptions of fruitive activity, speculative knowledge, mystic power and union with the Supreme, but ultimately all this is refuted and the Lord’s personal feature established, along with His devotional service." [CC Madhya 18.196]</blockquote>

[Guest guest]

Hare Krishna,

 

 

Please don't be sick. We make our judgements on the basis of the judgements of our Spiritual Masters and both Sri Chaitanyadeva and Srila Prabhupada consider Paigambar Muhammad as bona-fide. I don't know enough Persian to know whether they have been interpreted incorrectly, or whether or not they have been interpolated, or they mean something different; but i would not be as indiscreet and imprudent so as to challenge the opinion of our acharyas (and Bhavishya-puraana) and accuse the character/sanity of Paigambar Muhammad.

 

 

For your information, in Bhavishya Purana mohammad is said to be an incarnation of tripura asura. He is mentioned as a rascal. So your point does not stand well.

 

Anyway, my point that hadith and quran explicitly condone and even encourage kidnapping AND RAPE OF WOMEN is clear. How can you deny this and call mohammad as some authentic teacher.

[harishkumar09]

In Islam there is no personal feature of the God.Like Advaita , they don't mention a personal feature.

 

Whatever it is we must realise that worldwide people are turning against Islam , and many muslims in the middle east have bravely come out to question the exclusivist claims of Islam.

 

At this moment , are we going to go about defending Islam ?

[sumedh]

Hare Krishna,

 

Have a check on your language, sir.

 

 

In Islam there is no personal feature of the God.Like Advaita , they don't mention a personal feature.

 

 

 

That's what Lord Chaitanya revealed to be the true message. Anyway, bandagi or servitorship to the Lord is taught. The impersonalist philosophy of jiva being God is much more dangerous and worse.

 

But you hardly get the point. The question is not present day followers, but Muhammad. If you know a little of history, you should know that before Sri Chaitanya the other vaishnava sampradayas (esp. madhvacharya) used to criticize Shankaracharya very heavily; similiarly they would really be very hateful of Shaivites and would never enter the temple of Lord Shiva. Lord Chaitanya said that Shankaracharya was Lord Shiva who did what was necessary by the order of Krishna (using explicit quotes from Padma Purana); and Lord Shiva as the foremost vaishnava. At least in the gaudiya sampradaya Shankaracharya should never be criticized and is an offense to do so, just as Lord Buddha who is known to be Sri Bhagavan cannot be criticized for philosophy of Buddhism.

 

So we criticize the practises of present day followers (and you can find that in abundance on this forum, if criticism is what satisfies you), but should not criticize Paigambar Muhammad.

[sumedh]

Hare Krishna

 

 

For your information, in Bhavishya Purana mohammad is said to be an incarnation of tripura asura. He is mentioned as a rascal.

 

 

 

Can we have quotes please. In any case it is written that what Muhammad did was by the order of Lord Shiva.

[Guest guest]

Hare Krishna,

 

http://www.indiadivine.org/bhavishya-purana2.htm

 

Bhavishya Purana

 

--

 

 

The prediction of Islam as given

in the Bhavishya Purana

 

[From the third part of the Pratisarga Parva.]

 

Shri Suta Gosvami said: In the dynasty of king Shalivahana, there were ten kings who went to the heavenly planets after ruling for over 500 years. Then gradually the morality declined on the earth. At that time Bhojaraja was the tenth of the kings on the earth. When he saw that the moral law of conduct was declining he went to conquer all the directions of his country with ten-thousand soldiers commanded by Kalidasa. He crossed the river Sindhu and conquered over the gandharas, mlecchas, shakas, kasmiris, naravas and sathas. He punished them and collected a large ammount of wealth. Then the king went along with Mahamada (Mohammad), the preceptor of mleccha-dharma, and his followers to the great god, Lord Shiva, situated in the desert. He bathed Lord Shiva with Ganges water and worshipped him in his mind with pancagavya (milk, ghee, yoghurt, cow dung, and cow urine) and sandalwood paste, etc. After he offered some prayers and pleased him.

 

Suta Goswami said: After hearing the king’s prayers, Lord Shiva said: O king Bhojaraja, you should go to the place called Mahakakshvara, that land is called Vahika and now is being contaminated by the mlecchas. In that terrible country there no longer exists dharma. There was a mystic demon named Tripura, whom I have already burnt to ashes, he has come again by the order of Bali. He has no origin but he achieved a benediction from me. His name is Mahaoda and his deeds are like that of a ghost. Therefore, O king, you should not go to this land of the evil ghost. By my mercy your intelligence will be purified. Hearing this the king came back to his country and Mahamada came with them to the bank of the river Sindhu. He was expert in expanding illusion, so he said to the king very pleasingly: O great king, your god has become my servant. Just see, as he eats my remnants, so I will show you. The king became surprised when he saw this just before them. Then in anger Kalidasa rebuked Mahamada, “O rascal, you have created an illusion to bewilder the king, I will kill you, you are the lowest..."

[...]

 

That city is known as their site of pilgrimage, a place which was Madina or free from intoxication. Having a form of a ghost (Bhuta), the expert illusionist Mahamada appeared at night in front of king Bhojaraja and said: O king, your religion is of course known as the best religion among all. Still I am going to establish a terrible and demoniac religion by the order of the Lord. The symptoms of my followers will be that they first of all will cut their genitals, have no shikha, but having beard, be wicked, make noise loudly and eat everything. They should eat animals without performing any rituals. This is my opinion. They will perform purificatory act with the musala or a pestle as you purify your things with kusha. Therefore, they will be known as musalman, the corrupters of religion. Thus the demoniac religion will be founded by me. After having heard all this the king came back to his palace and that ghost went back to his place.

 

The intelligent king, Bhojaraj established the language of Sanskrit in three varnas - the brahmanas, kshatriyas and vaisyas - and for the shudras he established prakrita-bhasha, the ordinary language spoken by common men. After ruling his kingdom for 50 years, he went to the heavenly planet. The moral laws established by him were honored even by the demigods. The arya-varta, the pious land is situated between Vindhyacala and Himacala or the mountains known as Vindhya and Himalaya. The Aryans reside there, but varna-sankaras reside on the lower part of Vindhya. The musalman people were kept on the other side of the river Sindhu.

 

On the island of Barbara, Tusha and many others also the followers of Isamsiha were also situated as they were managed by a king or demigods.

[Guest guest]

Hare Krishna,

 

 

Can we have quotes please. In any case it is written that what Muhammad did was by the order of Lord Shiva.

 

 

The quote you asked is given in previous post.

 

Why did you not answer my quotes from Quran and Sunnah, where it is clearly shown that Mohammad condones kidnapping and rape of women caught in war. Or are you one dishonest person who will not look at the verses.

[harishkumar09]

Its worthwhile to point out that even Madhva who considers Shankara a demon says he was sent by Lord Shiva.All activities of the demons are made possible by the assent of Primal Demigods and the permissive will of Lord Krishna.

 

Thus Madhva accepts that it was Krishna who sent Adi Shankara down to earth and then Lord Shiva blessed him with the gift of wonderful prose , so he would mesmerize Indians and spread advaita philosophy.

 

So everything happens by the will of the Lord.

 

I would just like to add the following quote of Swami Vivekananda.

 

"The difference between advaitins and vaishnavaites is in their exclusivity.There is no advaitin who will say all religions are not one and the same , but for him a person born a shudra is a shudra till his death.But a vaishnavaite is more liberal with regards to caste , but exclusivist with regard to religion."

 

That is , he holds his religion to be the only true religion.

 

 

[harishkumar09]

We should see the context in which chaitanya approved of Islam.

 

 

For eg , even though Madhva had positively rubbished Islam , when he met the muslim king he said "Allah and Narayana are one and the same".Now do you expect all Madhvas to convert to Islam coz of the above statment of Madhva ?

 

Its quite possible since Yuga Dharma should not be disrupted , Chaitanya said Koran teaches bhakthi , instead of condemning it and inviting reprisals.

 

Plus we dont know what the situation was at that time.A muslim king was ruling so Chaitanya thought it wise to play along.He didnt want a fight.May be he thought ppl were not prepared for it.

 

We should always take the Desa,Kala and Patra into account and not blindly accept what was said in the past.

 

If chaitanya was here today and saw that hindu society was well organized with groups like RSS & BJP , he could have trashed Islam and the Koran in foul language.

 

 

[Guest guest]

 

Of the three great cultures, namely hindu, western and Islamic, I've chosen Islam because:

 

1) It is based on compassion, unlike Hindu/western which centers on exploitation

 

4) Islam says, "Live and let live." Western/hindu way of thought infringes on other cultures through war, terror, imperialism, crusades, migration etc.

 

5) Islam believes in limited consumption and to use the rest of one's wealth for social service, unlike hindu/western values that believe in unlimited consumption

 

 

 

I'm sure all those Hindus who had their temples burned to the ground, their icons smashed, and their heads cut off for refusing to convert, got a real taste of genuine Islamic compassion during the Medieval ages.

 

[Guest guest]

the muslims were very strong and ruthless all over India, especially in the North where he preached. Even a harmless question on Koran or Islam was considered blasphemy, and the people were punished mercilessly. Under those circumstances, Chaitanya, the intelligent guy that he was, decided to play it safe, if only to reach more people, eventually leading to conversion to a more benign path. That was his plan and a very good one. I've gotta hand it to him-he was a tactician par excellence.

 

Superman

[Guest guest]

Hey what is the point of dieing a martyr's death and getting all those virgins? The second you sleep with them then they are not virgins anymore, so Allah isn't going to let you sleep with them.

 

All abrahamic faiths lead to brutal dictatorships. Do you think there is democracy in heaven or hell?

 

The Abrahamic God is guilty of genocide both past and future. Who would worship such a vile creature that would seek to destroy a third of mankind, that sought to kill all mankind, and wiped out at least two cities, men, women, children and babies. The abrahamic god is a monster.

 

But, as the Upanisads teach us BU 1.4.10 the loss of one man to enlightenment is like the loss of a head of cattle to a man. Would that I lead you astray to enlightenment?

 

Perhaps, the abrahamic god is seeking to kill us all out of compassion, if the universe is destroyed, if the three worlds made one, void of all, then are we released from samsara? If your god is brahman and if it is it must, then perhaps Ekam has finally seen its own enlightenment and seeks to destroy that which it created in order to be whole once more??? But how does one destroy itself?

 

We too need to surrender our desire and greed to knowledge. Once knowledge is achieved of the nature of brahman one lives without greed or passion. Is this the same as surrendering to Allah??? I give my life to the winds of fate realising that all is but a maze and we are but mice. The scientist trains the mouse with reward and punishment to choose the path it desires us to take. Those that go with the flow are rewarded those that stand still or go back starve, and those that take the wrong path are punished. Realisation of our encagement in samsara is the first step to freedom. Following a god or fate blindly is not a step towards freedom, it is the innocence of a fool.

 

Isn't it great to see the weakness of god? A being that can't change its own laws without being branded a heretic and killed. A being that must destroy those that disobey it. A being that lacks the power of persuasion, that lacks the ability to guide its flock. Such weakness is god, such weakness is maya.

 

the apple wills us to eat it because it was designed by nature to do so. It is an illusion that we will to eat it.

[gopalapriyadas]

Escape! Yes this is exactly what we are trying to do, to escape the clutches of maya and the cycle of birth and death. We are escaping this jail. We are escaping back for home, back to Godhead. Chanting the holy name gives you a hot-rod ride to escape.

Hare Krsna Hare Krsna Krsna Krsna Hare Hare Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare. Chant the holy name. Chant the holy name. Chant the holy name. There is no other way. Hare Krsna Hare Krsna Krsna Krsna Hare Hare Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare. All Glories to the Holy Name! All Glories to the Holy Name! All Glories to the Holy Name! Hare Krsna Hare Krsna Krsna Krsna Hare Hare Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare.

[Guest guest]

(1)If It is based on compassion,and not on exploitation, then why did the muslims invade other regions?

Why did they forcefully made Indian Brahmins eat beef and converted them to islam?

Wasn't it exploitation?

 

2)If there is no class or caste,then why are some of you still living like slaves and some in luxury?

Why give different punishments to different persons(based on "class")???

 

3)If There is no capitalism or its offshoots such as socialism then why didn't all muslims go into islamic countries?why are they staying in our "CAPITALLIST country"??

 

4) Islam says, "Live and let live."

Thanks for letting Live the innocent persons at the world trade center and pentagon.

 

5) Islam believes in limited consumption.

Can anyone say an instance when muslims served another community?

They help only their community.

We can see their remainings of "Limited consumption" hanging in the butcher shop.They eat and drink and enjoy and always speak for themselves.

 

I can go on and on, but i hope you can all understand why islam towers above other communities